On March 22 2016 06:47 Orr wrote: Defeating Rain, Soulkey, soO, and PartinG in dominating succession. Became an immediate core lineup regular for KT following that
This, for the record, is historically inaccurate. Zest was PL regular way before he all-killed SKT.
Reading comprehension is important. 'Became an immediate core lineup regular'
Yes Zest had had limited PL success previously. No, he was not an important part of the KT puzzle prior to that. All the buzz prior to the R1 playoff finals that season, was about TY and his dazzling 7-0 start. And KT's core was clearly Flash/TY/Stats. Zest was nothing more than a role player along the lines of Myungsik and Action.
On March 22 2016 06:47 Orr wrote: Defeating Rain, Soulkey, soO, and PartinG in dominating succession. Became an immediate core lineup regular for KT following that
This, for the record, is historically inaccurate. Zest was PL regular way before he all-killed SKT.
Reading comprehension is important. Yes Zest had had limited PL success previously. No, he was not an important part of the KT puzzle prior to that. All the buzz prior to the R1 playoff finals that season, was about TY and his dazzling 7-0 start. And KT's core was clearly Flash/TY/Stats. Zest was nothing more than a role player along the lines of Myungsik and Action.
Good grief. He was one of KT's core players in the 2012-2013 season - which even though it was at least partly HotS, nobody in this thread seems to acknowledge. He already got fielded almost every week before his all-kill. He was fielded for an ace match for KT before his all-kill. He was not a role player. And your statement there doesn't become more true if you make it bold.
Yes, ever since then he was fielded slightly more often per round, but that also might have to do with the fact that he was the best player on the team and won GSL.
If anything, the one who became an "immediate core lineup regular" that round was TY, who was new to the team.
On March 22 2016 06:47 Orr wrote: Defeating Rain, Soulkey, soO, and PartinG in dominating succession. Became an immediate core lineup regular for KT following that
This, for the record, is historically inaccurate. Zest was PL regular way before he all-killed SKT.
Reading comprehension is important. Yes Zest had had limited PL success previously. No, he was not an important part of the KT puzzle prior to that. All the buzz prior to the R1 playoff finals that season, was about TY and his dazzling 7-0 start. And KT's core was clearly Flash/TY/Stats. Zest was nothing more than a role player along the lines of Myungsik and Action.
Good grief. He was one of KT's core players in the 2012-2013 season - which even though it was at least partly HotS, nobody in this thread seems to acknowledge. He already got fielded almost every week before his all-kill. He was fielded for an ace match for KT before his all-kill. He was not a role player. And your statement there doesn't become more true if you make it bold.
Yes, ever since then he was fielded slightly more often per round, but that also might have to do with the fact that he was the best player on the team and won GSL.
If anything, the one who became an "immediate core lineup regular" that round was TY, who was new to the team.
He actually all kill-ed STX Soul the year before as well so he was a regular I would say
On March 22 2016 06:47 Orr wrote: Defeating Rain, Soulkey, soO, and PartinG in dominating succession. Became an immediate core lineup regular for KT following that
This, for the record, is historically inaccurate. Zest was PL regular way before he all-killed SKT.
Reading comprehension is important. Yes Zest had had limited PL success previously. No, he was not an important part of the KT puzzle prior to that. All the buzz prior to the R1 playoff finals that season, was about TY and his dazzling 7-0 start. And KT's core was clearly Flash/TY/Stats. Zest was nothing more than a role player along the lines of Myungsik and Action.
Good grief. He was one of KT's core players in the 2012-2013 season - which even though it was at least partly HotS, nobody in this thread seems to acknowledge. He already got fielded almost every week before his all-kill. He was fielded for an ace match for KT before his all-kill. He was not a role player. And your statement there doesn't become more true if you make it bold.
Yes, ever since then he was fielded slightly more often per round, but that also might have to do with the fact that he was the best player on the team and won GSL.
If anything, the one who became an "immediate core lineup regular" that round was TY, who was new to the team.
Apologies good sir! You are correct on all counts. My memory seems to have strongly mislead me. I stand corrected! Just looked over the R1 regular season stats for 2014. KT went an extremely impressive 6-1 (20-9 games record) for +11 overall.
Out of 7 possible matches: Flash fielded 7x (2 ace matches, won both) TY fielded 7x (perfect record) Stats 5x Zest 5x (1 ace match, lost to Maru) Myungsik 2x Action 2x
So the data does clearly bear out your claim that Zest was a regular lineup player against my incorrect assertion (that he was in the Myungsik/Action suppoting class). And unequivocally demonstrates that TY was an immediate core player from the get-go (as you said).
Also went back and looked at the statistics for 2012-2013 PL season (when I only very lightly followed, have since watched every single game of every single match from the start of 2014 PL to present). Zest #7 overall on winner's rankings for KT, 29-17 63% win-rate, great in vP and vZ). Think it's fair to not put too much weight into the results given the difficult in-season transition period between games/lack of general balance/and fluid meta (although the top ten winner's ranking for that season is basically a who's who of numerous all-time BW/SC2 greats). But his results/role are impressive nonetheless. And further validate your point (and my factual errors).
Ultimately, all of this (rather ironically) only strengthens my previous comparison between Classic and Zest. Go figure.
On March 22 2016 06:47 Orr wrote: Defeating Rain, Soulkey, soO, and PartinG in dominating succession. Became an immediate core lineup regular for KT following that
This, for the record, is historically inaccurate. Zest was PL regular way before he all-killed SKT.
Reading comprehension is important. Yes Zest had had limited PL success previously. No, he was not an important part of the KT puzzle prior to that. All the buzz prior to the R1 playoff finals that season, was about TY and his dazzling 7-0 start. And KT's core was clearly Flash/TY/Stats. Zest was nothing more than a role player along the lines of Myungsik and Action.
Good grief. He was one of KT's core players in the 2012-2013 season - which even though it was at least partly HotS, nobody in this thread seems to acknowledge. He already got fielded almost every week before his all-kill. He was fielded for an ace match for KT before his all-kill. He was not a role player. And your statement there doesn't become more true if you make it bold.
Yes, ever since then he was fielded slightly more often per round, but that also might have to do with the fact that he was the best player on the team and won GSL.
If anything, the one who became an "immediate core lineup regular" that round was TY, who was new to the team.
Apologies good sir!. My memory seems to have strongly mislead me. I stand corrected! Just looked over the R1 regular season stats for 2014. KT went an extremely impressive 6-1 (20-9 games record) for +11 overall.
Out of 7 possible matches: Flash fielded 7x (2 ace matches, won both) TY fielded 7x (perfect record) Stats 5x Zest 5x (1 ace match, lost to Maru) Myungsik 2x Action 2x
So the data does clearly bear out your claim that Zest was a regular lineup player against my incorrect assertion (that he was in the Myungsik/Action suppoting class). But it also demonstrates that TY was an immediate core player from the get-go.
Also went back and looked at the statistics for 2012-2013 PL season (before I started following). Zest #7 overall on winner's rankings for KT, 29-17 63% win-rate, great in vP and vZ). Think it's fair to not put much weight into the results given the difficult in-season transition period between games. But his results/role are impressive nonetheless. And further validate your point (and my factual error).
Ultimately, all of this (rather ironically) only strengthens my previous comparison between Classic and Zest. Go figure.
Well, glad we cleared this one without throwing a tantrum. And yeah, this actually supports Zest somewhat. Although I always feel direct comparisons are weird to make :S
Once you are enlightened you will see how Classic>Zest because Starleagues matter more than anything else and sOs @1 because who gives a fuck about Starleagues?!?!?
This is perhaps the starkest contrast between the guy who excels at “winning the big one” versus the guy who “wins a lot.” Zest has 3 secondary titles to match his GSL championship (IEM Katowice, Kespa Cup and GSL Global Tourney), while Classic only has IEM Shenzhen. Zest was the star of his team for Proleague, while Classic was merely a solid contributor. Zest regularly made it farther in GSL and SSL, while Classic made it to the Round of 4 at Blizzcon twice.
How you weigh these results is a matter of personal judgment, but there’s one more factor to consider: nearly all of Zest’s championships happened in a 6 month span from April 2014 to September 2014, indicating that there was a period when he “figured out” the game, but afterwards, the game figured out him. Classic, on the other hand, won his second starleague a full 12 months after his first. Champions rise and fall, but true champions rise again. Classic deserves the edge over Zest.
I don't think your categorization show the real comparison well. Summarizing tournament results in a year and then giving advantages forgoes the whole weighting.
In my point system Zest has a small advantage: Zest 3.50 - 3.38 Classic The system doesn't consider placements our tournament participations lower than Ro4 or proleague which heavily favors Classic already, over an even broader consideration.
What you argue in favor of Classic - Zest's peak - could be argued to be an advantage as well. Hardly any other player peaked as hard as Zest did in HotS, maybe with the exception of Life, making him one of the only contenders for a Bonjwa in SC2. Not to mention that, if Zest ever wins something again, the whole argument that he was only good that one time breaks down. Which isn't really true to begin with, because he had quite some good results afterwards, otherwise he wouldn't have made it to blizzcon 2015 to begin with.
Sorry I don't recall seeing your point system. Can you please post it again?
On March 22 2016 06:47 Orr wrote: Defeating Rain, Soulkey, soO, and PartinG in dominating succession. Became an immediate core lineup regular for KT following that
This, for the record, is historically inaccurate. Zest was PL regular way before he all-killed SKT.
Reading comprehension is important. Yes Zest had had limited PL success previously. No, he was not an important part of the KT puzzle prior to that. All the buzz prior to the R1 playoff finals that season, was about TY and his dazzling 7-0 start. And KT's core was clearly Flash/TY/Stats. Zest was nothing more than a role player along the lines of Myungsik and Action.
Good grief. He was one of KT's core players in the 2012-2013 season - which even though it was at least partly HotS, nobody in this thread seems to acknowledge. He already got fielded almost every week before his all-kill. He was fielded for an ace match for KT before his all-kill. He was not a role player. And your statement there doesn't become more true if you make it bold.
Yes, ever since then he was fielded slightly more often per round, but that also might have to do with the fact that he was the best player on the team and won GSL.
If anything, the one who became an "immediate core lineup regular" that round was TY, who was new to the team.
Apologies good sir!. My memory seems to have strongly mislead me. I stand corrected! Just looked over the R1 regular season stats for 2014. KT went an extremely impressive 6-1 (20-9 games record) for +11 overall.
Out of 7 possible matches: Flash fielded 7x (2 ace matches, won both) TY fielded 7x (perfect record) Stats 5x Zest 5x (1 ace match, lost to Maru) Myungsik 2x Action 2x
So the data does clearly bear out your claim that Zest was a regular lineup player against my incorrect assertion (that he was in the Myungsik/Action suppoting class). But it also demonstrates that TY was an immediate core player from the get-go.
Also went back and looked at the statistics for 2012-2013 PL season (before I started following). Zest #7 overall on winner's rankings for KT, 29-17 63% win-rate, great in vP and vZ). Think it's fair to not put much weight into the results given the difficult in-season transition period between games. But his results/role are impressive nonetheless. And further validate your point (and my factual error).
Ultimately, all of this (rather ironically) only strengthens my previous comparison between Classic and Zest. Go figure.
Well, glad we cleared this one without throwing a tantrum. And yeah, this actually supports Zest somewhat. Although I always feel direct comparisons are weird to make :S
Got pretty used to dealing w/ folks using illogical reasoning on here and respewing stuff they see without understanding it at all, so didn't recognize actual facts when they were staring me in the face. You're a knowledgeable KT fan.
And I'll probably soon be accused by others of being a Zest/KT fanboy. Despite being neither. I understand why BlackZetsu and a few others are arguing for Classic so strongly. He has some seriously impressive bling. And has a clear-cut case to be in everyone's top ten, with definite wiggle room upward.
I just feel Zest's superior achievements (amid much greater pressure) put him on another level (#5 in my S class tier) + Show Spoiler +
My final HOTS S class tier: 7) soO 6) herO 5) Zest 4) Maru 3) Life 2) sOs 1) Inno
, while Classic is on the one right below along w/ Rain, PartinG, and Taeja (the order of which is largely inconsequential to me). All four of whom are deserved champions and the absolute best of everyone else that ever touched HOTS.
Once you are enlightened you will see how Classic>Zest because Starleagues matter more than anything else and sOs @1 because who gives a fuck about Starleagues?!?!?
This is perhaps the starkest contrast between the guy who excels at “winning the big one” versus the guy who “wins a lot.” Zest has 3 secondary titles to match his GSL championship (IEM Katowice, Kespa Cup and GSL Global Tourney), while Classic only has IEM Shenzhen. Zest was the star of his team for Proleague, while Classic was merely a solid contributor. Zest regularly made it farther in GSL and SSL, while Classic made it to the Round of 4 at Blizzcon twice.
How you weigh these results is a matter of personal judgment, but there’s one more factor to consider: nearly all of Zest’s championships happened in a 6 month span from April 2014 to September 2014, indicating that there was a period when he “figured out” the game, but afterwards, the game figured out him. Classic, on the other hand, won his second starleague a full 12 months after his first. Champions rise and fall, but true champions rise again. Classic deserves the edge over Zest.
I don't think your categorization show the real comparison well. Summarizing tournament results in a year and then giving advantages forgoes the whole weighting.
In my point system Zest has a small advantage: Zest 3.50 - 3.38 Classic The system doesn't consider placements our tournament participations lower than Ro4 or proleague which heavily favors Classic already, over an even broader consideration.
What you argue in favor of Classic - Zest's peak - could be argued to be an advantage as well. Hardly any other player peaked as hard as Zest did in HotS, maybe with the exception of Life, making him one of the only contenders for a Bonjwa in SC2. Not to mention that, if Zest ever wins something again, the whole argument that he was only good that one time breaks down. Which isn't really true to begin with, because he had quite some good results afterwards, otherwise he wouldn't have made it to blizzcon 2015 to begin with.
Sorry I don't recall seeing your point system. Can you please post it again?
(sorry for all the brackets in advance)
I only linked it once in this thread and the dataset in the blog is not updated so no problemo. But I did that just now and this is the final evaluation only counting HotS tournaments (no teamleagues/proleague included; only top4 score). The same point system from a year ago when I originally wrote the blog is used (so no biased change in system just to justify some of my arguments).
Here are all players that scored more than 2 points (if someone important is missing tell me and I will look up his points, I haven't implemented an automated compare function yet, should maybe do that sometime).
Life - 5.891667 INnoVation - 5.075 Maru - 4.65 herO - 4.583333 sOs - 4.575 soO - 4.25 TaeJa - 4.0 Rain - 3.816667 Polt - 3.591667 Zest - 3.5 Jaedong - 3.475 MMA - 3.391667 Classic - 3.383333 ByuL - 2.875 PartinG - 2.85 Soulkey - 2.816667 Bomber - 2.741667 HyuN - 2.683333 Dear - 2.5 MC - 2.166667 (mistakes when copying all the stats from liquipedia are obviously possible)
The Five Tiers of Tournaments: Tier 1 - Preparation tournaments of the highest level of their time with a certain factor of exclusiveness usually granted through a tough qualification process. E.g. GSL, WCS KR, NSSL 2012-2015, OSL 2013
Tier 2 - Tournaments that for a certain reason (e.g. lack of preparation time or too high frequency of the tournament in a year) do not make Tier 1. E.g. GSL 2011, OSL 2012, WCS Blizzcon Finals
Tier 3 - Similar to Tier 2 tournaments which are usually below T1 and T2 tournaments in tournament length, price pool and prestige, yet still feature the absolute top players in the world. E.g. Hot6ix Cup, GSL Blizzard Cup, IEM WC 2014 & 2015, GSL World Championship 2011, WCS AM, WCS EU, WCS Global, Kespa Cup
Tier 4 - Frequent Premier Tournament Series which usually include a lot of traveling, no preparation time for opponents and are usually held at LAN events. E.g. MLG, DH, IEM
Tier 5 - Like Tier 4, but with a weaker player line up, a very small bracket or less of a competetive character. Basically all the other tournaments that are not listed in the other Tiers. E.g. HomeStoryCup, Red Bull Battlegrounds, MLG/DH/IEMs with weak player line ups.
For each placement as 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th player in an SC2 Premier Tournament, said player gets points. Tier 1 - 1 point/0.75points/0.5points/0.5points Tier 2 - 0.8 points/0.6points/0.4points/0.4points Tier 3 - 0.5 points/0.375points/0.25points/0.25points Tier 4 - 0.33 points/0.25points/0.17points/0.17points Tier 5 - 0.15 points/0.1points/0.075points/0.075points
So, to put it into perspective: you need three Dreamhack championships to match the points of one Code S champion. For every one point a player has, he has achieved as much as Seed. A player that won one Tier 1 GSL, but never ever placed top4 elsewhere.
Disclaimer: Since, as I wrote before, proleague and <Ro4 results are missing this is not my final ranking for players, but this would be the baseline to create one. Basically by finding ways to include proleague and doing all the necessary work to enlarge my database with lower tournament rounds.
On March 22 2016 03:49 thecrazymunchkin wrote: The awkward argument here is that what we generally imply when we quote 'prestige' is that we link how hard players try / how much pressure they overcome to the tournament.
But even that runs into issues; you've got examples of people like Dream last year, who lost 2-0 to herO in the GSL Ro16 last year, before smashing him 4-0 in the SSL the very next day with strategies he'd hidden the day before. You've got Rain forfeiting a GSL Code S spot in favour of MLG.
That completely contradicts our surface level assumption that the GSL is the most prestigious league in the world; to truly understand the bigger picture requires something more in depth than simply rolling off results from liquipedia; it requires a lot more understanding than anyone not intimately connected with the Korean scene can likely obtain.
That's not to say that I completely agree with Olli; I do think that winning in Starcraft isn't completely about being the better player, and the mindgames that come with the high pressure environment are certainly part of it. But to assume that certain events aren't prestigious and ignoring any of the results that come from them is wrong. In any case, I think it's definitely wrong to blindly bind DH / IEMs together; it's clear that not all of them are equal - just look at the abomination that was IEM gamescom. In general, DH Winter / IEM Katowice (2014/2015) are on a different tier, and then the others depend highly on the player base in attendance
Rain was a 'foreign Korean' at that time. His personal and team's priorities do not represent the common KeSPA Koreans. He's almost like Taeja, except that he balances priorities between foreign tournaments and Starleagues much better.
Dream was deeper into SSL than GSL. Of course he would prioritise SSL more, being already at the knockout stage and closer to winning SSL than GSL.
Not saying that KeSPA Koreans should be the ultimate authority of 'prestige'. Just so happens that they make out the majority of the top players, and 'prestige' is decided by the majority. It's just how it is. As much as the minority like Polt, Hydra and Taeja may beg to differ, they can't assert true superiority until they fight their fellow Koreans on their turf - which is where the highest standard of competition is at. Chile beating Argentina in the COPA on home soil can never be better than Argentina finishing runners-up in the World Cup.
Once you are enlightened you will see how Classic>Zest because Starleagues matter more than anything else and sOs @1 because who gives a fuck about Starleagues?!?!?
This is perhaps the starkest contrast between the guy who excels at “winning the big one” versus the guy who “wins a lot.” Zest has 3 secondary titles to match his GSL championship (IEM Katowice, Kespa Cup and GSL Global Tourney), while Classic only has IEM Shenzhen. Zest was the star of his team for Proleague, while Classic was merely a solid contributor. Zest regularly made it farther in GSL and SSL, while Classic made it to the Round of 4 at Blizzcon twice.
How you weigh these results is a matter of personal judgment, but there’s one more factor to consider: nearly all of Zest’s championships happened in a 6 month span from April 2014 to September 2014, indicating that there was a period when he “figured out” the game, but afterwards, the game figured out him. Classic, on the other hand, won his second starleague a full 12 months after his first. Champions rise and fall, but true champions rise again. Classic deserves the edge over Zest.
I don't think your categorization show the real comparison well. Summarizing tournament results in a year and then giving advantages forgoes the whole weighting.
In my point system Zest has a small advantage: Zest 3.50 - 3.38 Classic The system doesn't consider placements our tournament participations lower than Ro4 or proleague which heavily favors Classic already, over an even broader consideration.
What you argue in favor of Classic - Zest's peak - could be argued to be an advantage as well. Hardly any other player peaked as hard as Zest did in HotS, maybe with the exception of Life, making him one of the only contenders for a Bonjwa in SC2. Not to mention that, if Zest ever wins something again, the whole argument that he was only good that one time breaks down. Which isn't really true to begin with, because he had quite some good results afterwards, otherwise he wouldn't have made it to blizzcon 2015 to begin with.
Sorry I don't recall seeing your point system. Can you please post it again?
(sorry for all the brackets in advance)
I only linked it once in this thread and the dataset in the blog is not updated so no problemo. But I did that just now and this is the final evaluation only counting HotS tournaments (no teamleagues/proleague included; only top4 score). The same point system from a year ago when I originally wrote the blog is used (so no biased change in system just to justify some of my arguments).
Here are all players that scored more than 2 points (if someone important is missing tell me and I will look up his points, I haven't implemented an automated compare function yet, should maybe do that sometime).
Life - 5.891667 INnoVation - 5.075 Maru - 4.65 herO - 4.583333 sOs - 4.575 soO - 4.25 TaeJa - 4.0 Rain - 3.816667 Polt - 3.591667 Zest - 3.5 Jaedong - 3.475 MMA - 3.391667 Classic - 3.383333 ByuL - 2.875 PartinG - 2.85 Soulkey - 2.816667 Bomber - 2.741667 HyuN - 2.683333 Dear - 2.5 MC - 2.166667 (mistakes when copying all the stats from liquipedia are obviously possible)
The Five Tiers of Tournaments: Tier 1 - Preparation tournaments of the highest level of their time with a certain factor of exclusiveness usually granted through a tough qualification process. E.g. GSL, WCS KR, NSSL 2012-2015, OSL 2013
Tier 2 - Tournaments that for a certain reason (e.g. lack of preparation time or too high frequency of the tournament in a year) do not make Tier 1. E.g. GSL 2011, OSL 2012, WCS Blizzcon Finals
Tier 3 - Similar to Tier 2 tournaments which are usually below T1 and T2 tournaments in tournament length, price pool and prestige, yet still feature the absolute top players in the world. E.g. Hot6ix Cup, GSL Blizzard Cup, IEM WC 2014 & 2015, GSL World Championship 2011, WCS AM, WCS EU, WCS Global, Kespa Cup
Tier 4 - Frequent Premier Tournament Series which usually include a lot of traveling, no preparation time for opponents and are usually held at LAN events. E.g. MLG, DH, IEM
Tier 5 - Like Tier 4, but with a weaker player line up, a very small bracket or less of a competetive character. Basically all the other tournaments that are not listed in the other Tiers. E.g. HomeStoryCup, Red Bull Battlegrounds, MLG/DH/IEMs with weak player line ups.
For each placement as 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th player in an SC2 Premier Tournament, said player gets points. Tier 1 - 1 point/0.75points/0.5points/0.5points Tier 2 - 0.8 points/0.6points/0.4points/0.4points Tier 3 - 0.5 points/0.375points/0.25points/0.25points Tier 4 - 0.33 points/0.25points/0.17points/0.17points Tier 5 - 0.15 points/0.1points/0.075points/0.075points
So, to put it into perspective: you need three Dreamhack championships to match the points of one Code S champion. For every one point a player has, he has achieved as much as Seed. A player that won one Tier 1 GSL, but never ever placed top4 elsewhere.
Disclaimer: Since, as I wrote before, proleague and <Ro4 results are missing this is not my final ranking for players, but this would be the baseline to create one. Basically by finding ways to include proleague and doing all the necessary work to enlarge my database with lower tournament rounds.
Great list, great effort!
Now, this is a list I can live with (despite a few eyebrow-raising surprises). Good to see Maru and soO high up there, given their crazy consistency in Starleagues and not being marked down too much for their lack of foreign tournament exposure. And sOs is fairly placed too, even with his lack of Starleague deep runs.
Not sure why you relegate a GSL and OSL into Tier 2, though.
the fact that polt has more points than zest shows there are some flaws with your system Anyway it's impossible to have an objective list because everyone rates different things differently. I think the closest to an objective list we'd get through a poll.
On March 22 2016 06:47 Orr wrote: Defeating Rain, Soulkey, soO, and PartinG in dominating succession. Became an immediate core lineup regular for KT following that
This, for the record, is historically inaccurate. Zest was PL regular way before he all-killed SKT.
Reading comprehension is important. Yes Zest had had limited PL success previously. No, he was not an important part of the KT puzzle prior to that. All the buzz prior to the R1 playoff finals that season, was about TY and his dazzling 7-0 start. And KT's core was clearly Flash/TY/Stats. Zest was nothing more than a role player along the lines of Myungsik and Action.
Good grief. He was one of KT's core players in the 2012-2013 season - which even though it was at least partly HotS, nobody in this thread seems to acknowledge. He already got fielded almost every week before his all-kill. He was fielded for an ace match for KT before his all-kill. He was not a role player. And your statement there doesn't become more true if you make it bold.
Yes, ever since then he was fielded slightly more often per round, but that also might have to do with the fact that he was the best player on the team and won GSL.
If anything, the one who became an "immediate core lineup regular" that round was TY, who was new to the team.
Apologies good sir!. My memory seems to have strongly mislead me. I stand corrected! Just looked over the R1 regular season stats for 2014. KT went an extremely impressive 6-1 (20-9 games record) for +11 overall.
Out of 7 possible matches: Flash fielded 7x (2 ace matches, won both) TY fielded 7x (perfect record) Stats 5x Zest 5x (1 ace match, lost to Maru) Myungsik 2x Action 2x
So the data does clearly bear out your claim that Zest was a regular lineup player against my incorrect assertion (that he was in the Myungsik/Action suppoting class). But it also demonstrates that TY was an immediate core player from the get-go.
Also went back and looked at the statistics for 2012-2013 PL season (before I started following). Zest #7 overall on winner's rankings for KT, 29-17 63% win-rate, great in vP and vZ). Think it's fair to not put much weight into the results given the difficult in-season transition period between games. But his results/role are impressive nonetheless. And further validate your point (and my factual error).
Ultimately, all of this (rather ironically) only strengthens my previous comparison between Classic and Zest. Go figure.
Well, glad we cleared this one without throwing a tantrum. And yeah, this actually supports Zest somewhat. Although I always feel direct comparisons are weird to make :S
Got pretty used to dealing w/ folks using illogical reasoning on here and respewing stuff they see without understanding it at all, so didn't recognize actual facts when they were staring me in the face. You're a knowledgeable KT fan.
And I'll probably soon be accused by others of being a Zest/KT fanboy. Despite being neither. I understand why BlackZetsu and a few others are arguing for Classic so strongly. He has some seriously impressive bling. And has a clear-cut case to be in everyone's top ten, with definite wiggle room upward.
I just feel Zest's superior achievements (amid much greater pressure) put him on another level (#5 in my S class tier) + Show Spoiler +
My final HOTS S class tier: 7) soO 6) herO 5) Zest 4) Maru 3) Life 2) sOs 1) Inno
, while Classic is on the one right below along w/ Rain, PartinG, and Taeja (the order of which is largely inconsequential to me). All four of whom are deserved champions and the absolute best of everyone else that ever touched HOTS.
your list is the best i have seen so far, if only stuchiu made a decent one too .....
the fact that polt has more points than zest shows there are some flaws with your system Anyway it's impossible to have an objective list because everyone rates different things differently. I think the closest to an objective list we'd get through a poll.
Jaedong (#11) is way, way too high. And the Tyrant was my favorite BW player ever. He has some decent SC2 results against decidedly underwhelming foreign competition but nothing particularly noteworthy, and completely lacks any impressive titles. Having him above superstars like Classic and PartinG, and world-class players like Dear, Byul, Soulkey, and even Bomber is laughable. He's outside the top 20, and similar to Hyun.
MMA (#12) is so inspiring and impossible to not root for (going out a champion!). But doesn't belong anywhere near the top 15. And I'd put MMA clearly above Jaedong for his multiple foreign titles. Think a lot of people are confusing his overall SC2 excellence (especially his great WOL days) w/ being a top tier HOTS player.
Polt (#9) as previously pointed out is also clearly out of place on the list (I'm a huge fan). His timelessness as InControl said after his latest WCS title is incredible. As is his ability to figure out how to thrive in seemingly broken metas. His numerous WCS and foreign titles are impressive but against mostly mediocre foreign competition. Having him above superstars like Classic and PartinG is crazy. He's firmly in the Dear, Bomber, Byul, Soulkey, and Solar tier for me. But there's definitely an argument for being just outside the top 10 given his longevity, sustained excellence, and actual incredible hardware (albeit against weaker foreign opposition).
Hyun (#18) is a great story of longevity and perseverance. And has some solid results against poor foreign competition. I'd have him above Jaedong but both are basically irrelevant to me in any GOAT HOTS discussion.
MC (#20) is a great performer and awesome personality but other than his big WCS title in 2014, hasn't done anything of importance since WOL. Clearly outside the top 20 for me and irrelevant for this discussion.
***I'd put Solar (way, way better results), Stats, Dream, and Curious all clearly above Hyun, Jaedong, and BossToss.
Once you are enlightened you will see how Classic>Zest because Starleagues matter more than anything else and sOs @1 because who gives a fuck about Starleagues?!?!?
This is perhaps the starkest contrast between the guy who excels at “winning the big one” versus the guy who “wins a lot.” Zest has 3 secondary titles to match his GSL championship (IEM Katowice, Kespa Cup and GSL Global Tourney), while Classic only has IEM Shenzhen. Zest was the star of his team for Proleague, while Classic was merely a solid contributor. Zest regularly made it farther in GSL and SSL, while Classic made it to the Round of 4 at Blizzcon twice.
How you weigh these results is a matter of personal judgment, but there’s one more factor to consider: nearly all of Zest’s championships happened in a 6 month span from April 2014 to September 2014, indicating that there was a period when he “figured out” the game, but afterwards, the game figured out him. Classic, on the other hand, won his second starleague a full 12 months after his first. Champions rise and fall, but true champions rise again. Classic deserves the edge over Zest.
I don't think your categorization show the real comparison well. Summarizing tournament results in a year and then giving advantages forgoes the whole weighting.
In my point system Zest has a small advantage: Zest 3.50 - 3.38 Classic The system doesn't consider placements our tournament participations lower than Ro4 or proleague which heavily favors Classic already, over an even broader consideration.
What you argue in favor of Classic - Zest's peak - could be argued to be an advantage as well. Hardly any other player peaked as hard as Zest did in HotS, maybe with the exception of Life, making him one of the only contenders for a Bonjwa in SC2. Not to mention that, if Zest ever wins something again, the whole argument that he was only good that one time breaks down. Which isn't really true to begin with, because he had quite some good results afterwards, otherwise he wouldn't have made it to blizzcon 2015 to begin with.
Sorry I don't recall seeing your point system. Can you please post it again?
(sorry for all the brackets in advance)
I only linked it once in this thread and the dataset in the blog is not updated so no problemo. But I did that just now and this is the final evaluation only counting HotS tournaments (no teamleagues/proleague included; only top4 score). The same point system from a year ago when I originally wrote the blog is used (so no biased change in system just to justify some of my arguments).
Here are all players that scored more than 2 points (if someone important is missing tell me and I will look up his points, I haven't implemented an automated compare function yet, should maybe do that sometime).
Life - 5.891667 INnoVation - 5.075 Maru - 4.65 herO - 4.583333 sOs - 4.575 soO - 4.25 TaeJa - 4.0 Rain - 3.816667 Polt - 3.591667 Zest - 3.5 Jaedong - 3.475 MMA - 3.391667 Classic - 3.383333 ByuL - 2.875 PartinG - 2.85 Soulkey - 2.816667 Bomber - 2.741667 HyuN - 2.683333 Dear - 2.5 MC - 2.166667 (mistakes when copying all the stats from liquipedia are obviously possible)
The Five Tiers of Tournaments: Tier 1 - Preparation tournaments of the highest level of their time with a certain factor of exclusiveness usually granted through a tough qualification process. E.g. GSL, WCS KR, NSSL 2012-2015, OSL 2013
Tier 2 - Tournaments that for a certain reason (e.g. lack of preparation time or too high frequency of the tournament in a year) do not make Tier 1. E.g. GSL 2011, OSL 2012, WCS Blizzcon Finals
Tier 3 - Similar to Tier 2 tournaments which are usually below T1 and T2 tournaments in tournament length, price pool and prestige, yet still feature the absolute top players in the world. E.g. Hot6ix Cup, GSL Blizzard Cup, IEM WC 2014 & 2015, GSL World Championship 2011, WCS AM, WCS EU, WCS Global, Kespa Cup
Tier 4 - Frequent Premier Tournament Series which usually include a lot of traveling, no preparation time for opponents and are usually held at LAN events. E.g. MLG, DH, IEM
Tier 5 - Like Tier 4, but with a weaker player line up, a very small bracket or less of a competetive character. Basically all the other tournaments that are not listed in the other Tiers. E.g. HomeStoryCup, Red Bull Battlegrounds, MLG/DH/IEMs with weak player line ups.
For each placement as 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th player in an SC2 Premier Tournament, said player gets points. Tier 1 - 1 point/0.75points/0.5points/0.5points Tier 2 - 0.8 points/0.6points/0.4points/0.4points Tier 3 - 0.5 points/0.375points/0.25points/0.25points Tier 4 - 0.33 points/0.25points/0.17points/0.17points Tier 5 - 0.15 points/0.1points/0.075points/0.075points
So, to put it into perspective: you need three Dreamhack championships to match the points of one Code S champion. For every one point a player has, he has achieved as much as Seed. A player that won one Tier 1 GSL, but never ever placed top4 elsewhere.
Disclaimer: Since, as I wrote before, proleague and <Ro4 results are missing this is not my final ranking for players, but this would be the baseline to create one. Basically by finding ways to include proleague and doing all the necessary work to enlarge my database with lower tournament rounds.
Great list, great effort!
Now, this is a list I can live with (despite a few eyebrow-raising surprises). Good to see Maru and soO high up there, given their crazy consistency in Starleagues and not being marked down too much for their lack of foreign tournament exposure. And sOs is fairly placed too, even with his lack of Starleague deep runs.
Not sure why you relegate a GSL and OSL into Tier 2, though.
The GSLs and OSLs in Tier 2 are from WoL and irrelevant for these HotS only stats. The reasons for them not being T1 are because 2011 GSL was more frequent and thus every tournament counts slightly less. 2012 OSL was a bit odd in terms of qualification process. Keep in mind T2 tournaments are nearly giving as many points as T1 ones.
the fact that polt has more points than zest shows there are some flaws with your system Anyway it's impossible to have an objective list because everyone rates different things differently. I think the closest to an objective list we'd get through a poll.
Jaedong (#11) is way, way too high. And the Tyrant was my favorite BW player ever. He has some decent SC2 results against decidedly underwhelming foreign competition but nothing particularly noteworthy, and completely lacks any impressive titles. Having him above superstars like Classic and PartinG, and world-class players like Dear, Byul, Soulkey, and even Bomber is laughable. He's outside the top 20, and similar to Hyun.
MMA (#12) is so inspiring and impossible to not root for (going out a champion!). But doesn't belong anywhere near the top 15. And I'd put MMA clearly above Jaedong for his multiple foreign titles. Think a lot of people are confusing his overall SC2 excellence (especially his great WOL days) w/ being a top tier HOTS player.
Polt (#9) as previously pointed out is also clearly out of place on the list (I'm a huge fan). His timelessness as InControl said after his latest WCS title is incredible. As is his ability to figure out how to thrive in seemingly broken metas. His numerous WCS and foreign titles are impressive but against mostly mediocre foreign competition. Having him above superstars like Classic and PartinG is crazy. He's firmly in the Dear, Bomber, Byul, Soulkey, and Solar tier for me. But there's definitely an argument for being just outside the top 10 given his longevity, sustained excellence, and actual incredible hardware (albeit against weaker foreign opposition).
Hyun (#18) is a great story of longevity and perseverance. And has some solid results against poor foreign competition. I'd have him above Jaedong but both are basically irrelevant to me in any GOAT HOTS discussion.
MC (#20) is a great performer and awesome personality but other than his big WCS title in 2014, hasn't done anything of importance since WOL. Clearly outside the top 20 for me and irrelevant for this discussion.
***I'd put Solar (way, way better results), Stats, Dream, and Curious all clearly above Hyun, Jaedong, and BossToss.
I think it's because WCS AM and WCS EU are weighted rather favourably (at the same level of KeSPA Cup). Personally, I would relegate them to Tier 4.
the fact that polt has more points than zest shows there are some flaws with your system Anyway it's impossible to have an objective list because everyone rates different things differently. I think the closest to an objective list we'd get through a poll.
Jaedong (#11) is way, way too high. And the Tyrant was my favorite BW player ever. He has some decent SC2 results against decidedly underwhelming foreign competition but nothing particularly noteworthy, and completely lacks any impressive titles. Having him above superstars like Classic and PartinG, and world-class players like Dear, Byul, Soulkey, and even Bomber is laughable. He's outside the top 20, and similar to Hyun.
MMA (#12) is so inspiring and impossible to not root for (going out a champion!). But doesn't belong anywhere near the top 15. And I'd put MMA clearly above Jaedong for his multiple foreign titles. Think a lot of people are confusing his overall SC2 excellence (especially his great WOL days) w/ being a top tier HOTS player.
Polt (#9) as previously pointed out is also clearly out of place on the list (I'm a huge fan). His timelessness as InControl said after his latest WCS title is incredible. As is his ability to figure out how to thrive in seemingly broken metas. His numerous WCS and foreign titles are impressive but against mostly mediocre foreign competition. Having him above superstars like Classic and PartinG is crazy. He's firmly in the Dear, Bomber, Byul, Soulkey, and Solar tier for me. But there's definitely an argument for being just outside the top 10 given his longevity, sustained excellence, and actual incredible hardware (albeit against weaker foreign opposition).
Hyun (#18) is a great story of longevity and perseverance. And has some solid results against poor foreign competition. I'd have him above Jaedong but both are basically irrelevant to me in any GOAT HOTS discussion.
MC (#20) is a great performer and awesome personality but other than his big WCS title in 2014, hasn't done anything of importance since WOL. Clearly outside the top 20 for me and irrelevant for this discussion.
***I'd put Solar (way, way better results), Stats, Dream, and Curious all clearly above Hyun, Jaedong, and BossToss.
I think it's because WCS AM and WCS EU are weighted rather favourably (at the same level of KeSPA Cup). Personally, I would relegate them to Tier 4.
WCS AM was more than 50% Koreans and held in a preparation format. EU was quite similar. Legitimately tough to win, that one, way tougher than 2015 WCS, which is why I wouldn't relegate it.
the fact that polt has more points than zest shows there are some flaws with your system Anyway it's impossible to have an objective list because everyone rates different things differently. I think the closest to an objective list we'd get through a poll.
Jaedong (#11) is way, way too high. And the Tyrant was my favorite BW player ever. He has some decent SC2 results against decidedly underwhelming foreign competition but nothing particularly noteworthy, and completely lacks any impressive titles. Having him above superstars like Classic and PartinG, and world-class players like Dear, Byul, Soulkey, and even Bomber is laughable. He's outside the top 20, and similar to Hyun.
MMA (#12) is so inspiring and impossible to not root for (going out a champion!). But doesn't belong anywhere near the top 15. And I'd put MMA clearly above Jaedong for his multiple foreign titles. Think a lot of people are confusing his overall SC2 excellence (especially his great WOL days) w/ being a top tier HOTS player.
Polt (#9) as previously pointed out is also clearly out of place on the list (I'm a huge fan). His timelessness as InControl said after his latest WCS title is incredible. As is his ability to figure out how to thrive in seemingly broken metas. His numerous WCS and foreign titles are impressive but against mostly mediocre foreign competition. Having him above superstars like Classic and PartinG is crazy. He's firmly in the Dear, Bomber, Byul, Soulkey, and Solar tier for me. But there's definitely an argument for being just outside the top 10 given his longevity, sustained excellence, and actual incredible hardware (albeit against weaker foreign opposition).
Hyun (#18) is a great story of longevity and perseverance. And has some solid results against poor foreign competition. I'd have him above Jaedong but both are basically irrelevant to me in any GOAT HOTS discussion.
MC (#20) is a great performer and awesome personality but other than his big WCS title in 2014, hasn't done anything of importance since WOL. Clearly outside the top 20 for me and irrelevant for this discussion.
***I'd put Solar (way, way better results), Stats, Dream, and Curious all clearly above Hyun, Jaedong, and BossToss.
I think it's because WCS AM and WCS EU are weighted rather favourably (at the same level of KeSPA Cup). Personally, I would relegate them to Tier 4.
Kespa Cup obviously features better players, but the tournament structure is one of a smaller tournament with only 4 rounds played in a short timeframe and 50% invites. WCS EU/AM had huge qualifiers, 32 players with group and elemination bracket and long preparation times and the level of competition was still quite high at the top.
the fact that polt has more points than zest shows there are some flaws with your system Anyway it's impossible to have an objective list because everyone rates different things differently. I think the closest to an objective list we'd get through a poll.
Jaedong (#11) is way, way too high. And the Tyrant was my favorite BW player ever. He has some decent SC2 results against decidedly underwhelming foreign competition but nothing particularly noteworthy, and completely lacks any impressive titles. Having him above superstars like Classic and PartinG, and world-class players like Dear, Byul, Soulkey, and even Bomber is laughable. He's outside the top 20, and similar to Hyun.
MMA (#12) is so inspiring and impossible to not root for (going out a champion!). But doesn't belong anywhere near the top 15. And I'd put MMA clearly above Jaedong for his multiple foreign titles. Think a lot of people are confusing his overall SC2 excellence (especially his great WOL days) w/ being a top tier HOTS player.
Polt (#9) as previously pointed out is also clearly out of place on the list (I'm a huge fan). His timelessness as InControl said after his latest WCS title is incredible. As is his ability to figure out how to thrive in seemingly broken metas. His numerous WCS and foreign titles are impressive but against mostly mediocre foreign competition. Having him above superstars like Classic and PartinG is crazy. He's firmly in the Dear, Bomber, Byul, Soulkey, and Solar tier for me. But there's definitely an argument for being just outside the top 10 given his longevity, sustained excellence, and actual incredible hardware (albeit against weaker foreign opposition).
Hyun (#18) is a great story of longevity and perseverance. And has some solid results against poor foreign competition. I'd have him above Jaedong but both are basically irrelevant to me in any GOAT HOTS discussion.
MC (#20) is a great performer and awesome personality but other than his big WCS title in 2014, hasn't done anything of importance since WOL. Clearly outside the top 20 for me and irrelevant for this discussion.
***I'd put Solar (way, way better results), Stats, Dream, and Curious all clearly above Hyun, Jaedong, and BossToss.
I think it's because WCS AM and WCS EU are weighted rather favourably (at the same level of KeSPA Cup). Personally, I would relegate them to Tier 4.
Kespa Cup obviously features better players, but the tournament structure is one of a smaller tournament with only 4 rounds played in a short timeframe and 50% invites. WCS EU/AM had huge qualifiers, 32 players with group and elemination bracket and long preparation times and the level of competition was still quite high at the top.
WCS EU/AM started out quite competitively, but faded over the years. Isn't their tournament format mixed? The knockout rounds from RO8 onwards were done over a weekend, for some of the tourneys. The mixed format bothers me somewhat.
The part of the list I have issues most with is the middle - Rain, Zest and Classic are definitely a level above MC, Polt and Jaedong... and yes, slightly over Taeja too.
Zest v Classic is a good teaser. There was some debate going on earlier in the thread. I can't quite decide who edges over who. They're really quite close. Rain sits slightly above them, I feel.
Zest beats Classic quite easily. He was dominant for an entire year, then even at his worst won IEM Katowice. Then went on to hard carry KT in Proleague. Classic was always good, and I've loved him long time, but he can't touch Zest in either achievements, consistency or peak skill, even despite the individual league hiccups in early 2015.
On March 22 2016 23:24 Olli wrote: Zest beats Classic quite easily. He was dominant for an entire year, then even at his worst won IEM Katowice. Then went on to hard carry KT in Proleague. Classic was always good, and I've loved him long time, but he can't touch Zest in either achievements, consistency or peak skill, even despite the individual league hiccups in early 2015.
Somehow, Zest's achievements seem to be clustered within a 6 month peak period (except for the IEM which came out of the blue), almost like Dear. True, they (including Classic) had alarming dips of form. But Zest's and Dear's dips seem to last longer.
Okay, I would probably give the edge to Zest too, ultimately.
EPT
