On March 23 2016 00:40 Olli wrote: It'd be tough cause I was never that impressed with MC despite all his winnings. He did things that shouldn't work and sometimes didn't work, but often did. The ranking would depend heavily on criteria and, if you wanna call it that, personal bias.
Might look into it though. It's much easier if you rank them matchup specific (compared to their respective opposition).
On March 22 2016 03:49 thecrazymunchkin wrote: The awkward argument here is that what we generally imply when we quote 'prestige' is that we link how hard players try / how much pressure they overcome to the tournament.
But even that runs into issues; you've got examples of people like Dream last year, who lost 2-0 to herO in the GSL Ro16 last year, before smashing him 4-0 in the SSL the very next day with strategies he'd hidden the day before. You've got Rain forfeiting a GSL Code S spot in favour of MLG.
That completely contradicts our surface level assumption that the GSL is the most prestigious league in the world; to truly understand the bigger picture requires something more in depth than simply rolling off results from liquipedia; it requires a lot more understanding than anyone not intimately connected with the Korean scene can likely obtain.
That's not to say that I completely agree with Olli; I do think that winning in Starcraft isn't completely about being the better player, and the mindgames that come with the high pressure environment are certainly part of it. But to assume that certain events aren't prestigious and ignoring any of the results that come from them is wrong. In any case, I think it's definitely wrong to blindly bind DH / IEMs together; it's clear that not all of them are equal - just look at the abomination that was IEM gamescom. In general, DH Winter / IEM Katowice (2014/2015) are on a different tier, and then the others depend highly on the player base in attendance
Rain was a 'foreign Korean' at that time. His personal and team's priorities do not represent the common KeSPA Koreans. He's almost like Taeja, except that he balances priorities between foreign tournaments and Starleagues much better.
Dream was deeper into SSL than GSL. Of course he would prioritise SSL more, being already at the knockout stage and closer to winning SSL than GSL.
Not saying that KeSPA Koreans should be the ultimate authority of 'prestige'. Just so happens that they make out the majority of the top players, and 'prestige' is decided by the majority. It's just how it is. As much as the minority like Polt, Hydra and Taeja may beg to differ, they can't assert true superiority until they fight their fellow Koreans on their turf - which is where the highest standard of competition is at. Chile beating Argentina in the COPA on home soil can never be better than Argentina finishing runners-up in the World Cup.
Which is why, despite being a 'foreign korean', Rain is better than any other runner (PartinG, Fantasy, Soulkey, Polt, Hydra, Jaedong, Taeja) because he won a GSL (funnily enough he only won a GSL after leaving a KeSPa team) AND ALMOST WINNING SSL, (if Rain won against herO, he would've smashed Byul again in SSL finals).
Parting, Fantasy and Soulkey might have winning records against Rain after they left SKT, but none of them (maybe PartinG) got even close to Rain's achievements in 2015 (GSL win, HSC win, semi-final in SSL, and Rain being the only one of the four to beat Life in an offline event after his Global Finals win)
On March 22 2016 03:49 thecrazymunchkin wrote: The awkward argument here is that what we generally imply when we quote 'prestige' is that we link how hard players try / how much pressure they overcome to the tournament.
But even that runs into issues; you've got examples of people like Dream last year, who lost 2-0 to herO in the GSL Ro16 last year, before smashing him 4-0 in the SSL the very next day with strategies he'd hidden the day before. You've got Rain forfeiting a GSL Code S spot in favour of MLG.
That completely contradicts our surface level assumption that the GSL is the most prestigious league in the world; to truly understand the bigger picture requires something more in depth than simply rolling off results from liquipedia; it requires a lot more understanding than anyone not intimately connected with the Korean scene can likely obtain.
That's not to say that I completely agree with Olli; I do think that winning in Starcraft isn't completely about being the better player, and the mindgames that come with the high pressure environment are certainly part of it. But to assume that certain events aren't prestigious and ignoring any of the results that come from them is wrong. In any case, I think it's definitely wrong to blindly bind DH / IEMs together; it's clear that not all of them are equal - just look at the abomination that was IEM gamescom. In general, DH Winter / IEM Katowice (2014/2015) are on a different tier, and then the others depend highly on the player base in attendance
Rain was a 'foreign Korean' at that time. His personal and team's priorities do not represent the common KeSPA Koreans. He's almost like Taeja, except that he balances priorities between foreign tournaments and Starleagues much better.
Dream was deeper into SSL than GSL. Of course he would prioritise SSL more, being already at the knockout stage and closer to winning SSL than GSL.
Not saying that KeSPA Koreans should be the ultimate authority of 'prestige'. Just so happens that they make out the majority of the top players, and 'prestige' is decided by the majority. It's just how it is. As much as the minority like Polt, Hydra and Taeja may beg to differ, they can't assert true superiority until they fight their fellow Koreans on their turf - which is where the highest standard of competition is at. Chile beating Argentina in the COPA on home soil can never be better than Argentina finishing runners-up in the World Cup.
Which is why, despite being a 'foreign korean', Rain is better than any other runner (PartinG, Fantasy, Soulkey, Polt, Hydra, Jaedong, Taeja) because he won a GSL (funnily enough he only won a GSL after leaving a KeSPa team) AND ALMOST WINNING SSL, (if Rain won against herO, he would've smashed Byul again in SSL finals).
Parting, Fantasy and Soulkey might have winning records against Rain after they left SKT, but none of them (maybe PartinG) got even close to Rain's achievements in 2015 (GSL win, HSC win, semi-final in SSL, and Rain being the only one of the four to beat Life in an offline event after his Global Finals win)
Rain no. 1 in my heart too
He was one of the BW players who transitioned almost seamlessly and wrecked eSF players (winning OSL). He has been consistent since day one of post-BW and stayed strong till the end of HoTS. It's not hard to imagine him winning more stuff, had he transitioned to SC2 earlier.
Plus he has the looks too (seems like Protoss is the most handsomest race - Zest, herO, and yes, BISU!!!)
I thought of another way to rank players other than simply assigning a number value to tournaments and adding them up. The idea is to create a separate dimension for each tier of accomplishment, then multiply the value of each dimension to create a volume of performance. So GSL and Blizzcon Championships would be one dimension, all other championships a second dimension, and then a third dimension for all accomplishments short of a championship. Here's what I got for the top 3 players. Feel free to adjust as you see fit:
Quick note on the GSL vs Blizzcon Debate. There were 12 GSL/SSL tournaments in HotS, but only 3 Blizzcons. So the odds of winning a GSL/SSL were much greater for a player than winning a Blizzcon due to the sheer lack of Blizzcons. If you weight Blizzcon equally with GSL in terms of pure difficulty, to account for the difference in probability, you should weight Blizzcon 4x higher than GSL. So unless you think Blizzcon is 4x easier than GSL, you should weight Blizzcon higher than GSL in points solely due to the lower probability of winning a Blizzcon. I chose 1500 for Blizzcon and 1000 for GSL kind of randomly, feel free to adjust and see what happens.
On March 23 2016 14:13 BlackZetsu wrote: Hey Guys,
I thought of another way to rank players other than simply assigning a number value to tournaments and adding them up. The idea is to create a separate dimension for each tier of accomplishment, then multiply the value of each dimension to create a volume of performance. So GSL and Blizzcon Championships would be one dimension, all other championships a second dimension, and then a third dimension for all accomplishments short of a championship. Here's what I got for the top 3 players. Feel free to adjust as you see fit:
Quick note on the GSL vs Blizzcon Debate. There were 12 GSL/SSL tournaments in HotS, but only 3 Blizzcons. So the odds of winning a GSL/SSL were much greater for a player than winning a Blizzcon due to the sheer lack of Blizzcons. If you weight Blizzcon equally with GSL in terms of pure difficulty, to account for the difference in probability, you should weight Blizzcon 4x higher than GSL. So unless you think Blizzcon is 4x easier than GSL, you should weight Blizzcon higher than GSL in points solely due to the lower probability of winning a Blizzcon. I chose 1500 for Blizzcon and 1000 for GSL kind of randomly, feel free to adjust and see what happens.
Somehow I left out sOs' Hot6 Cup and 2015 MSI Masters Gaming Arena championships - I would rank them both the same as a regular IEM/Dreamhack for this purpose (although arguably Hot6 Cup should be ranked higher). That would put sOs even further ahead.
Apparently you need to get to the gsl finals 15 times to have accomplished as much as winning blizzcon once. That sums up the quality of your point values
On March 23 2016 14:13 BlackZetsu wrote: Hey Guys,
I thought of another way to rank players other than simply assigning a number value to tournaments and adding them up. The idea is to create a separate dimension for each tier of accomplishment, then multiply the value of each dimension to create a volume of performance. So GSL and Blizzcon Championships would be one dimension, all other championships a second dimension, and then a third dimension for all accomplishments short of a championship. Here's what I got for the top 3 players. Feel free to adjust as you see fit:
Quick note on the GSL vs Blizzcon Debate. There were 12 GSL/SSL tournaments in HotS, but only 3 Blizzcons. So the odds of winning a GSL/SSL were much greater for a player than winning a Blizzcon due to the sheer lack of Blizzcons. If you weight Blizzcon equally with GSL in terms of pure difficulty, to account for the difference in probability, you should weight Blizzcon 4x higher than GSL. So unless you think Blizzcon is 4x easier than GSL, you should weight Blizzcon higher than GSL in points solely due to the lower probability of winning a Blizzcon. I chose 1500 for Blizzcon and 1000 for GSL kind of randomly, feel free to adjust and see what happens.
Somehow I left out sOs' Hot6 Cup and 2015 MSI Masters Gaming Arena championships - I would rank them both the same as a regular IEM/Dreamhack for this purpose (although arguably Hot6 Cup should be ranked higher). That would put sOs even further ahead.
This point system seems promising. Way more valid than the BS ranking of author of this poor article. But personally I would count 2nd place with 350 - 400 points at least. For me 2nd place at GSL is much bigger achievment than winning a DreamHack or even WCS. Maybe try to ADD Zest, Classic, Maru, herO and Taeja to the list to see how valid this point system is and then adjust. Lets try to balance it out a little bit. Maybe even 500 points for 2nd place (GSL/Blizzcon only), 250 for RO4 (on GSL/Blizzcon only!). And then 300 points for 2nd place in Another tournament + 100 for RO4 in WCS, Kespa Cup, Dreamhack etc. This should value consistent players a little more fairly I believe
On March 23 2016 14:13 BlackZetsu wrote: Hey Guys,
I thought of another way to rank players other than simply assigning a number value to tournaments and adding them up. The idea is to create a separate dimension for each tier of accomplishment, then multiply the value of each dimension to create a volume of performance. So GSL and Blizzcon Championships would be one dimension, all other championships a second dimension, and then a third dimension for all accomplishments short of a championship. Here's what I got for the top 3 players. Feel free to adjust as you see fit:
Quick note on the GSL vs Blizzcon Debate. There were 12 GSL/SSL tournaments in HotS, but only 3 Blizzcons. So the odds of winning a GSL/SSL were much greater for a player than winning a Blizzcon due to the sheer lack of Blizzcons. If you weight Blizzcon equally with GSL in terms of pure difficulty, to account for the difference in probability, you should weight Blizzcon 4x higher than GSL. So unless you think Blizzcon is 4x easier than GSL, you should weight Blizzcon higher than GSL in points solely due to the lower probability of winning a Blizzcon. I chose 1500 for Blizzcon and 1000 for GSL kind of randomly, feel free to adjust and see what happens.
You should probably multiply 'Tier 3 Other Results' by x4 or x5. I'm glad you value DH:Winter and Katowice higher than other Dreamhacks/IEM's.
On March 23 2016 23:04 Orr wrote: Never forget when soO refused to make a single SH in all seven games of the GSL finals against Zest.
And saved HOTS in the process.
Zest at the time was pretty much invincible vs swarmhost.
And soO was never a swarmhost zerg, that style completely ignored all his strengths. He was a muta/corruptor ZvPer, and the best at it too. He beat everyone with it until Zest came along.
by discounting events, finals, titles, blah blah and looking at pure ratings - determined solely by the skill of the opponent and where he stands in the hierarchy, it is incontrovertible:
inno #1
even without looking at the stats my gut feeling is that inno at his peak is the strongest ever but if you want the empirical evidence -
highest peak elo highest win rate over a huge number of games always playing in korea biggest and longest gap/period of domination at the top according to aligulac
On March 23 2016 23:04 Orr wrote: Never forget when soO refused to make a single SH in all seven games of the GSL finals against Zest.
And saved HOTS in the process.
Lol. Those Starcraft-"fans", that never stop talking about the game needing "saving". How about not pretending the game is dying all the time?
I felt like I was dying watching endless drawn out games until the entire map resources ran dry and both players had a 10k/10k bank. Between the mass SH/corrupter/spore forests vs the mass tempest/archon/mothership army vs the mass ravens/viking/tank/missile turret army. Watching free auto-spawn units much better suited to other less skilled games was really turning me off from Starcraft for the first time ever.
Watching the series live on stream, and seeing soO (who was absolutely amazing w/ SH, as he was w/ seemingly all compositions) consciously forgo the greatest tool in the Z arsenal at the time was invigorating. Because of several very questionable decisions on soO's part, Zest was able to barely prevail (my clear takeaway was that even in defeat, soO was the superior player). But that series filled me w/ hope again that Z was still a viable race sans their terribly designed unit.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cjI6v8i.jpg)
