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sharkie
Austria18679 Posts
On March 23 2016 23:51 Olli wrote: And soO was never a swarmhost zerg, that style completely ignored all his strengths. He was a muta/corruptor ZvPer, and the best at it too. He beat everyone with it until Zest came along. until he reached a final... It could have been any protoss lol | ||
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Yorkie
United States12612 Posts
On March 24 2016 00:44 sharkie wrote: until he reached a final... It could have been any protoss lol Nah. he lost to Dear at his absolute peak (how the fuck did he manage to lose to Jaedong) Zest when he was also at his best (although it wasn't his only peak) Classic (who at the time people discounted but now we can see how good he is and was) and Innovation twice in finals. I honestly think people over hype the idea that soO plays terribly in finals or can't win. He played well in all except the two finals against Innovation imo | ||
munch
Mute City2363 Posts
On March 24 2016 01:50 Yorkie wrote: Nah. he lost to Dear at his absolute peak (how the fuck did he manage to lose to Jaedong) Zest when he was also at his best (although it wasn't his only peak) Classic (who at the time people discounted but now we can see how good he is and was) and Innovation twice in finals. I honestly think people over hype the idea that soO plays terribly in finals or can't win. He played well in all except the two finals against Innovation imo He looked fucking dreadful at DH against Solar, after stomping the competition and playing in his best matchup. But yes, I agree that the GSL narrative has been overplayed | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 24 2016 01:50 Yorkie wrote: Nah. he lost to Dear at his absolute peak (how the fuck did he manage to lose to Jaedong) Zest when he was also at his best (although it wasn't his only peak) Classic (who at the time people discounted but now we can see how good he is and was) and Innovation twice in finals. I honestly think people over hype the idea that soO plays terribly in finals or can't win. He played well in all except the two finals against Innovation imo Maybe you should rewatch his games on Yeonsu vs Zest, King Sejong vs Classic. I think he won only one macro game against those two (on Alterzim against Classic) and he choked on the last map of every series. In all his finals it looked like after a certain loss in the series he just lost confidence and all games from then on are pretty bad from him. | ||
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BlackZetsu
United States179 Posts
Added Hot6 Cup and MSI Gaming Masters championships for sOs Added IEM Gamescom championship and 2015 Proleague wins for Innovation Shifted WCS Season Finals to Tier 2 and increased its points from 500 to 750 (the only effect of this is to help Innovation's volume) Shifted Proleague wins to Tier 3 as a "non-championship" result (this gives everyone higher volume) Added a "Total Points" as a sum of all points as another means of comparison The main difference between these players is Proleague wins, with sOs miles ahead of Innovation and Life. If Life and Innovation had played more in Proleague, they would likely have come out on top. I've also weighted GSL to give the exact relative value you would need to rank sOs and Innovation equally in total points. This shows that unless you rank GSL 12.75% higher than Blizzcon, then sOs gets the nod as best player. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/76181Lg.jpg) Feel free to copy this and submit your own charts with the point values you think are most appropriate for each accomplishment! | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
It makes very little sense to me. | ||
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BlackZetsu
United States179 Posts
On March 24 2016 14:34 The_Red_Viper wrote: Again, why do you value first place that much more? I won't even argue about Blizzcon being still way too impactful on your list, but first place gsl ~1000 and second place 100? It makes very little sense to me. Mainly because of lack of time and this is a first (now second) draft. I was hoping to start something that people could refine and post better charts with different viewpoints. I agree that a 2nd place GSL should count for a lot more than a 2nd place Redbull. Maybe 200 points for 2nd place GSL, 150 for WCS Season Finals, 100 points for everything else. That would give Innovation the lead in points under the current chart. Ultimately the point of the game is to win, so winning a championship should always count for far more than just coming in 2nd. That's the same in any sport. Nobody gives much weight to 2nd places when considering the best teams or players in the history of any sport, otherwise the Buffalo Bills and pre-2004 Red Sox would be considered among the greatest teams in their sports ... but they're not. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On March 25 2016 00:46 BlackZetsu wrote: Mainly because of lack of time and this is a first (now second) draft. I was hoping to start something that people could refine and post better charts with different viewpoints. I agree that a 2nd place GSL should count for a lot more than a 2nd place Redbull. Maybe 200 points for 2nd place GSL, 150 for WCS Season Finals, 100 points for everything else. That would give Innovation the lead in points under the current chart. Ultimately the point of the game is to win, so winning a championship should always count for far more than just coming in 2nd. That's the same in any sport. Nobody gives much weight to 2nd places when considering the best teams or players in the history of any sport, otherwise the Buffalo Bills and pre-2004 Red Sox would be considered among the greatest teams in their sports ... but they're not. I mean sure, first place should count for more, it really depends what "far more" means though. I could definitely see giving second place half the points for example. Your 200 points would basically mean that Fruitdealers one championship is worth more than soO's 4 times second place. I don't agree with that pov, even if in traditional sports it's mainly about the winner, that doesn't mean that they do it right ^^ I am also not quite sure if i like multiplying the different tiers tbh, just an example: If we had proleagie still tier two sOs would only have 1398400000 points, the max points are highly dependant on where to put the actual tournaments for imo very little reason because the point value alone should be enough to balance it. | ||
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BlackZetsu
United States179 Posts
On March 25 2016 01:34 The_Red_Viper wrote: I mean sure, first place should count for more, it really depends what "far more" means though. I could definitely see giving second place half the points for example. Your 200 points would basically mean that Fruitdealers one championship is worth more than soO's 4 times second place. I don't agree with that pov, even if in traditional sports it's mainly about the winner, that doesn't mean that they do it right ^^ I am also not quite sure if i like multiplying the different tiers tbh, just an example: If we had proleagie still tier two sOs would only have 1398400000 points, the max points are highly dependant on where to put the actual tournaments for imo very little reason because the point value alone should be enough to balance it. That's true. The point of volume is just offering another way to look at results. The idea is, to reflect whether a player does really well in just one thing (e.g., winning DreamHacks and IEMs) but not in other areas, such as individual leagues or Proleague. Another way of saying it is, volume shows the dimensions of the game in which the player excelled - kind of like that 5 pointed graph they show at the start of Proleague matches this season. I initially put Proleague in Tier 2 because of its prestige, but ultimately decided that it is a non-championship result so it belonged in Tier 3. It's all a matter of judgment. We could create more dimensions with Proleague being its own dimension, Korean individual leagues being their own dimension, Blizzcon being its own dimension - but that would make Life the only player with results in every dimension ... unless you put WCS Season finals in the same dimension as Blizzcon, in which case Innovation would be the best multi-dimensional player ... oh the possibilities!  | ||
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Poopi
France12973 Posts
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Orr
United States168 Posts
My own rankings clearly differ from Stuchiu's. But his holistic approach (albeit unfortunately omitting Proleague role/results) is much more valid to me than a simple predetermination of who you believe to be the best. Supported by crafting a completely arbitrary series of values to validate your original position. | ||
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BlackZetsu
United States179 Posts
1. There are 4 separate dimensions of Starcraft performance: Individual Leagues World Championships Weekend Tournaments Proleague wins 2. Korean individual league championships deserve the most weight. 3. Each placement in a tournament deserves half as many points as the placement above it (e.g., 1st = 100, 2nd = 50, Ro4 = 25, etc) This is the resulting chart: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Pup4iSy.jpg) I've shown results for "All Dimensions" (which takes into account everything), a volume without considering weekend tournaments (because that was where Innovation was weakest), and a straight sum of all points. 2 Conclusions: 1. Adding points shows that Innovation was the best player of Hots, driven mainly by his superb Korean individual league results. 2. Both "All Dimensions" and "Without Weekend Tournaments" volume show that sOs was the most well-rounded player in HotS, i.e., sOs was the best at doing well in all categories of tournaments. However, sOs's superior "Without Weekends" volume is explained by the fact that Innovation did not play in 2014 Proleague. If we assume Innovation had played in Proleague and picked up only 3 more wins, then Innovation would have the most volume in all categories excluding weekend tournaments. So perhaps the real conclusion is that Innovation either didn't travel to enough weekend tournaments, or just didn't perform well in them. But in all other respects, Innovation was the top player of HotS. Note that I haven't had time to fill in the different types of Proleague wins - this would probably give the most help to sOs. Edit: If we assume that Life had played in 3 years of Proleague (and this did not affect his other results - a major assumption) and gotten 17 wins each season for 51 total, then Life would move ahead of Innovation in All Dimensions, but still place 2nd in "Without Weekends" and 2nd in Total Points. 2nd Edit: You're probably saying, "Blizzcon shouldn't be worth 9,000 if GSL is 10,000 ... that's why sOs is so multi-dimensional" - ok, well just how low would you have to rank Blizzcon for Innovation to come out ahead in All Dimensions? 1550 - you would have to rank Blizzcon at just 15.5% the weight of a GSL Championship to put Innovation ahead in All Dimensions. 3rd Edit: Even that doesn't help! Lowering Blizzcon's weight means lowering the weight of Innovation's WCS Season Championship and his 2 Blizzcon Ro8's. So no matter how little weight you give to World Championships, sOs always comes out ahead in All Dimension volume. It's ok though Innovation fans, while sOs may be the "fattest" player across all dimensions, Innovation's Korean individual league success definitely makes him the tallest.  | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Otherwise the categories in which you make less points suddenly become inherently more important. To give you a specific example, sOs who gets the most points from proleague already, i.e. one would say he is already more than well established in that category, could trade ~102 points from his already weakest category, individual leagues, for 10 more proleague points (= one extra win) and still come out equal overall. This completely defies the original purpose of the multiplicative model that you should be good in all categories and messes up the original point distribution. Proleague wins are worth much much more than the nominal 10 points. Weekend tournament wins are still worth more than the nominal value. Especially individual league points are worth much less than their nominal value. | ||
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