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Orr
United States168 Posts
On March 20 2016 17:12 Diabolique wrote: A great result of this discussion is that there is still some passion in Starcraft 2. So maybe, it is not a dead game yet :-) The amount of passion here certainly suggests it's not! Long may that continue. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
I cant express in words how much of an insult this is to the whole SC2 scene... I only hope the SC2 pros and the real fans of SC2 won't ever read this BS. I couldn't even read it once I saw Taeja + Zest in top 3 and soO in top 5. What a waste of time. The author should be ashamed of himself... The real list: The Real Top 15: 1. sOs 2. Life 3. Innovation 4. Classic 5. Maru 6. herO 7. Zest 8. Rain 9. soO 10. Dear 11. Soulkey 12. Byul 13. Parting 14. Polt 15. Taeja | ||
Olli
Austria24420 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15989 Posts
On March 21 2016 18:01 MarianoSC2 wrote: If there was to be a list for the Worst Articles of ALL TIME, this one would be top of the list, followed close second and third by Part 2 & Part 1. I cant express in words how much of an insult this is to the whole SC2 scene... I only hope the SC2 pros and the real fans of SC2 won't ever read this BS. I couldn't even read it once I saw Taeja + Zest in top 3 and soO in top 5. What a waste of time. The author should be ashamed of himself... The real list: The Real Top 15: 1. sOs 2. Life 3. Innovation 4. Classic 5. Maru 6. herO 7. Zest 8. Rain 9. soO 10. Dear 11. Soulkey 12. Byul 13. Parting 14. Polt 15. Taeja On March 18 2016 11:12 BlackZetsu wrote: An absolute joke of a list that belittles the accomplishment of winning the most difficult tournaments and caters solely to fan favorites. The Real Top 15: 1. sOs 2. Life 3. Innovation 4. Classic 5. Maru 6. herO 7. Zest 8. Rain 9. soO 10. Dear 11. Soulkey 12. Byul 13. Parting 14. Polt 15. Taeja strange... | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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Silvana
3713 Posts
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sharkie
Austria18476 Posts
On March 21 2016 21:28 Silvana wrote: They both are very fond of using the word "insult" to dismiss others' lists and arguments. Strange indeed... the interesting part is that they have the exact same list XD | ||
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Elentos
55555 Posts
On March 21 2016 22:04 sharkie wrote: the interesting part is that they have the exact same list XD It's clearly just copy and pasted because it says The real list: The Real Top 15: which would be redundant. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 21 2016 22:04 sharkie wrote: the interesting part is that they have the exact same list XD Because it is the right one of course. As Elentos noted, they both say "The real list". Why else would those two different people both write that line? To make sure you understand it is the only valid list. Once you are enlightened you will see how Classic>Zest because Starleagues matter more than anything else and sOs @1 because who gives a fuck about Starleagues?!?!? | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 21 2016 22:08 Big J wrote: Because it is the right one of course. As Elentos noted, they both say "The real list". Why else would those two different people both write that line? To make sure you understand it is the only valid list. Once you are enlightened you will see how Classic>Zest because Starleagues matter more than anything else and sOs @1 because who gives a fuck about Starleagues?!?!? Many people on this site agreed on the top3(sOs, Inno, Life). The order was different, but many agreed these are the top3 people result-wise from HotS. And then this happens...  This time the system with Stupoints failed hard and who gives a fuck about his system? Mine is better! | ||
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BlackZetsu
United States179 Posts
On March 21 2016 18:01 MarianoSC2 wrote: If there was to be a list for the Worst Articles of ALL TIME, this one would be top of the list, followed close second and third by Part 2 & Part 1. I cant express in words how much of an insult this is to the whole SC2 scene... I only hope the SC2 pros and the real fans of SC2 won't ever read this BS. I couldn't even read it once I saw Taeja + Zest in top 3 and soO in top 5. What a waste of time. The author should be ashamed of himself... The real list: The Real Top 15: 1. sOs 2. Life 3. Innovation 4. Classic 5. Maru 6. herO 7. Zest 8. Rain 9. soO 10. Dear 11. Soulkey 12. Byul 13. Parting 14. Polt 15. Taeja Hey, that's my list! At least give me credit ... | ||
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BlackZetsu
United States179 Posts
On March 21 2016 22:08 Big J wrote: Once you are enlightened you will see how Classic>Zest because Starleagues matter more than anything else and sOs @1 because who gives a fuck about Starleagues?!?!? Ok let's compare Classic and Zest: GSL/SSL Championships – Zest 1; Classic 2 – Advantage Classic IEM Championships – Zest IEM Katowice; Classic IEM Shenzhen – Advantage Zest Proleague – Zest Tied for most wins 2015; Classic solid contributor – Advantage Zest Other Championships – Zest Kespa Cup, GSL Global Tourney, IeSF 2014; Classic None – Advantage Zest 2nd Places – Zest IEM Toronto; Classic None – Advantage Zest 2013 GSL – No results for either – even 2014 GSL – Zest Ro8 and Ro4; Classic Ro16, Ro32 – Advantage Zest 2015 GSL – Zest Ro8; Classic Ro8 – even 2015 SSL – Zest Ro8 x2; Classic Ro16 x2 - Advantage Zest Blizzcon – Zest 2x Ro16; Classic 2x Ro4 – Advantage Classic This is perhaps the starkest contrast between the guy who excels at “winning the big one” versus the guy who “wins a lot.” Zest has 3 secondary titles to match his GSL championship (IEM Katowice, Kespa Cup and GSL Global Tourney), while Classic only has IEM Shenzhen. Zest was the star of his team for Proleague, while Classic was merely a solid contributor. Zest regularly made it farther in GSL and SSL, while Classic made it to the Round of 4 at Blizzcon twice. How you weigh these results is a matter of personal judgment, but there’s one more factor to consider: nearly all of Zest’s championships happened in a 6 month span from April 2014 to September 2014, indicating that there was a period when he “figured out” the game, but afterwards, the game figured out him. Classic, on the other hand, won his second starleague a full 12 months after his first. Champions rise and fall, but true champions rise again. Classic deserves the edge over Zest. | ||
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Ensiferum8
Canada103 Posts
On March 22 2016 01:06 BlackZetsu wrote: I would put Inno first because Inno was only weak when terrans were extinct (which is understandable, only maru was doing well). Hey, that's my list! At least give me credit ... Zerg and Toss were never UP. Terrans were OP for a short time early on, but then were the weakest in late 2013/early 2014 and for all the 2015 year. The fact that inno was only struggling during WM nerf era is IMO why he should be ahead of sOs. But not taking balance into account, i can agree with your list. I would maybe put Taeja slightly higher, Classic slightly lower but thats nto a big deal | ||
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Ensiferum8
Canada103 Posts
On March 21 2016 18:30 Olli wrote: just like you convinced every one that winning a KR qualifier is more important/impressive than winning Blizzcon because Prestige is 100% irrelevant. KappaI really like how you argued for that list of yours. You completely convinced me. User was warned for this post | ||
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Olli
Austria24420 Posts
On March 22 2016 02:48 Ensiferum8 wrote: just like you convinced every one that winning a KR qualifier is more important/impressive than winning Blizzcon because Prestige is 100% irrelevant. Kappa User was warned for this post That's a grotesque distortion of what I said. But if you wanna go there - there have indeed been more impressive runs through IEM qualifiers than any of the three Blizzcon winning runs. They just happened to be less prestigious. I don't care though, we're ranking skill, not fame. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9004 Posts
On March 22 2016 03:31 Olli wrote: we're ranking skill, not fame. AMEN! It's like, what have we been arguing over this entire time? | ||
munch
Mute City2363 Posts
But even that runs into issues; you've got examples of people like Dream last year, who lost 2-0 to herO in the GSL Ro16 last year, before smashing him 4-0 in the SSL the very next day with strategies he'd hidden the day before. You've got Rain forfeiting a GSL Code S spot in favour of MLG. That completely contradicts our surface level assumption that the GSL is the most prestigious league in the world; to truly understand the bigger picture requires something more in depth than simply rolling off results from liquipedia; it requires a lot more understanding than anyone not intimately connected with the Korean scene can likely obtain. That's not to say that I completely agree with Olli; I do think that winning in Starcraft isn't completely about being the better player, and the mindgames that come with the high pressure environment are certainly part of it. But to assume that certain events aren't prestigious and ignoring any of the results that come from them is wrong. In any case, I think it's definitely wrong to blindly bind DH / IEMs together; it's clear that not all of them are equal - just look at the abomination that was IEM gamescom. In general, DH Winter / IEM Katowice (2014/2015) are on a different tier, and then the others depend highly on the player base in attendance | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 22 2016 02:07 BlackZetsu wrote: Ok let's compare Classic and Zest: GSL/SSL Championships – Zest 1; Classic 2 – Advantage Classic IEM Championships – Zest IEM Katowice; Classic IEM Shenzhen – Advantage Zest Proleague – Zest Tied for most wins 2015; Classic solid contributor – Advantage Zest Other Championships – Zest Kespa Cup, GSL Global Tourney, IeSF 2014; Classic None – Advantage Zest 2nd Places – Zest IEM Toronto; Classic None – Advantage Zest 2013 GSL – No results for either – even 2014 GSL – Zest Ro8 and Ro4; Classic Ro16, Ro32 – Advantage Zest 2015 GSL – Zest Ro8; Classic Ro8 – even 2015 SSL – Zest Ro8 x2; Classic Ro16 x2 - Advantage Zest Blizzcon – Zest 2x Ro16; Classic 2x Ro4 – Advantage Classic This is perhaps the starkest contrast between the guy who excels at “winning the big one” versus the guy who “wins a lot.” Zest has 3 secondary titles to match his GSL championship (IEM Katowice, Kespa Cup and GSL Global Tourney), while Classic only has IEM Shenzhen. Zest was the star of his team for Proleague, while Classic was merely a solid contributor. Zest regularly made it farther in GSL and SSL, while Classic made it to the Round of 4 at Blizzcon twice. How you weigh these results is a matter of personal judgment, but there’s one more factor to consider: nearly all of Zest’s championships happened in a 6 month span from April 2014 to September 2014, indicating that there was a period when he “figured out” the game, but afterwards, the game figured out him. Classic, on the other hand, won his second starleague a full 12 months after his first. Champions rise and fall, but true champions rise again. Classic deserves the edge over Zest. I don't think your categorization show the real comparison well. Summarizing tournament results in a year and then giving advantages forgoes the whole weighting. In my point system Zest has a small advantage: Zest 3.50 - 3.38 Classic The system doesn't consider placements our tournament participations lower than Ro4 or proleague which heavily favors Classic already, over an even broader consideration. What you argue in favor of Classic - Zest's peak - could be argued to be an advantage as well. Hardly any other player peaked as hard as Zest did in HotS, maybe with the exception of Life, making him one of the only contenders for a Bonjwa in SC2. Not to mention that, if Zest ever wins something again, the whole argument that he was only good that one time breaks down. Which isn't really true to begin with, because he had quite some good results afterwards, otherwise he wouldn't have made it to blizzcon 2015 to begin with. | ||
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Orr
United States168 Posts
On March 22 2016 02:07 BlackZetsu wrote: Ok let's compare Classic and Zest: GSL/SSL Championships – Zest 1; Classic 2 – Advantage Classic IEM Championships – Zest IEM Katowice; Classic IEM Shenzhen – Advantage Zest Proleague – Zest Tied for most wins 2015; Classic solid contributor – Advantage Zest Other Championships – Zest Kespa Cup, GSL Global Tourney, IeSF 2014; Classic None – Advantage Zest 2nd Places – Zest IEM Toronto; Classic None – Advantage Zest 2013 GSL – No results for either – even 2014 GSL – Zest Ro8 and Ro4; Classic Ro16, Ro32 – Advantage Zest 2015 GSL – Zest Ro8; Classic Ro8 – even 2015 SSL – Zest Ro8 x2; Classic Ro16 x2 - Advantage Zest Blizzcon – Zest 2x Ro16; Classic 2x Ro4 – Advantage Classic This is perhaps the starkest contrast between the guy who excels at “winning the big one” versus the guy who “wins a lot.” Zest has 3 secondary titles to match his GSL championship (IEM Katowice, Kespa Cup and GSL Global Tourney), while Classic only has IEM Shenzhen. Zest was the star of his team for Proleague, while Classic was merely a solid contributor. Zest regularly made it farther in GSL and SSL, while Classic made it to the Round of 4 at Blizzcon twice. How you weigh these results is a matter of personal judgment, but there’s one more factor to consider: nearly all of Zest’s championships happened in a 6 month span from April 2014 to September 2014, indicating that there was a period when he “figured out” the game, but afterwards, the game figured out him. Classic, on the other hand, won his second starleague a full 12 months after his first. Champions rise and fall, but true champions rise again. Classic deserves the edge over Zest. Firmly disagree. First off, I think Zest's individual achievements compare favorably to Classic straight up. Don't see the rational way even the strongest Classic fan could argue anything more than a wash at best. Which brings us to the role/results for each in PL the last two years of HOTS (2014 & 2015) when both rose up to power (both in team and individual league play). Classic was a solid rotational player/borderline starter in 2014 w/ good results for the SKT superteam (overshadowed by Rain and PartinG). Became a big member of their core five in 2015 and strongly contributed to SKT's complete domination the entire season. Zest's sudden rise to fame began w/ his stunning all-kill of the vaunted SKT in the 2014 R1 playoff finals against SKT. Defeating Rain, Soulkey, soO, and PartinG in dominating succession. Became an immediate foundational star for KT following that and co-ace w/ Flash for a KT team that would beat the odds to upset the SKT superteam in the GF. Became the undisputed ace player for the defending champions in 2015 and was #1 in winner's rankings (28-15, 65% win rate, positive win rates in every matchup). Absolutely dominant for stretches and was repeatedly sent out against the very best opposition. And finally, for the eye test (and no, not in the way you were oddly claiming in Part 2 where you suggested that switching their physical appearance would result in everyone realizing that Classic was superior, before you somewhat retracted that by claiming it was joke, but still held some truth, after quickly being called out by multiple people, myself included). Classic as he grew into power specifically excelled in playing very defensive and taking it to the late game, where he excelled at maxed army unit control/composition, especially mass tempest (and where P in the latter stages of HOTS was unquestionably the strongest). His talent was obvious, but never seemed to strike fear into the hearts of his opponents in any game I watched, despite usually winning. He was one of numerous great players on a historically stacked team, who frequently came through when his number was called. Zest on the other hand, had a clear aura around him upon his rise (again, this has zero to do w/ physical appearance). Every single time he stepped into the booth and the camera would pan to his opponent or their team preparing, the viewers got the clear sense that they were hoping for a miracle, and defeat appeared imminent. His playstyle was a ruthless mix of superior mechanics and strategy, and didn't require taking it to the very late game like Classic to cut down his opposition. He was the best player on a very solid team, who wanted (and everyone else knew was going to get) the ball in crunch time w/ the shot-clock running down. That type of constant pressure, to shoulder the load every single time required, is something only the absolute greatest at any sport can withstand (and thrive in). Your implied notion (that Classic was a greater champion because of his multiple starleague titles a full year apart, whereas Zest was a patch-toss of the blink era) is incorrect. Zest was still arguably the strongest P in Korea throughout 2015 (after being the clear-cut best player in the world from mid-late 2014) based on the totality of his work. In addition to dominating PL, he won the ultra stacked IEM WC that year (went through Hydra, Inno, Bbyong, Trap) for the almost $69k grand prize. This entire debate is only over HOTS (even though numerous folks keep confusing WOL and LOTV achievements as part of it). But when taking an even longer holistic view from mid/later HOTS to present, the difference is even more stark. While some familiar previous top players have fallen off, and other lesser ones have risen up thus far in LOTV, Zest is remarkably still the obvious best P in the world. And arguably the best player overall based on overall record/accomplishments. | ||
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Elentos
55555 Posts
On March 22 2016 06:47 Orr wrote: Defeating Rain, Soulkey, soO, and PartinG in dominating succession. Became an immediate core lineup regular for KT following that This, for the record, is historically inaccurate. Zest was PL regular way before he all-killed SKT. | ||
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