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France12911 Posts
On March 19 2016 21:29 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2016 21:10 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2016 11:31 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On March 19 2016 06:43 BlackZetsu wrote:On March 19 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2016 04:26 Big J wrote:
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league. Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list. Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive: Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX  You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example. It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack. So HerO --> Polt --> Bomber --> JD is a harder run than INnoVation --> sOs --> ForGG --> HerO --> MMA --> Life (twice) because Blizzcon is a more prestigious tournament than DH: Winter? I'm not sure I follow.
Where was TaeJa during this "easy" blizzcon?
Oh yes, getting 3-1ed by a guy who was beaten right after that. Mkay.
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On March 19 2016 21:32 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2016 21:29 Elentos wrote:On March 19 2016 21:10 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2016 11:31 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On March 19 2016 06:43 BlackZetsu wrote:On March 19 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2016 04:26 Big J wrote:
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league. Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list. Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive: Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example. It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack. So HerO --> Polt --> Bomber --> JD is a harder run than INnoVation --> sOs --> ForGG --> HerO --> MMA --> Life (twice) because Blizzcon is a more prestigious tournament than DH: Winter? I'm not sure I follow. Where was TaeJa during this "easy" blizzcon? Oh yes, getting 3-1ed by a guy who was beaten right after that. Mkay.
Pretty sure Dear as GSL and WCS champion was a (the?) tournament favorite and not just "a guy".
Also I hope you realise DH: Winter was 3 weeks after Blizzcon and featured half the people that played at the Global Finals. It was by no means an easy tournament, and if you directly compare who sOs had to beat to win Blizzcon vs who TaeJa had to beat to win DH: Winter, TaeJa's run was stronger.
None of which changes the fact that TaeJa is too high on this list.
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It doesn't matter that the criteria is or what list is made, TaeJa will always be too high on the list. You can't place him in a list because he doesn't follow the typical statistics needed to form one. When he was full-time, TaeJa was a beast. When all the Koreans were forced back to the GSL/SSL, everyone wanted to play against TaeJa. They needed that feather in their cap of defeating him. They knew that if the went overseas to play him, he was the odds-on favorite to win.
So in the en, it doesn't matter what Stuchiu writes or anyone else for that matter. TaeJa is an anomaly and can't be placed into these lists because he doesn't fit. I've watched a lot of SC2 and TaeJa just does what he does. "What kind of player is this?" That's TaeJa. You can't really categorize him.
I think he's top 5 easy in HoTS just because of the way he dominated the best players for a long period of time. But without the Korean "holyshitballshardesttourneyever" win, he'll always be that one player outside the group who is recognized as really good and one of the best to play it, but can't be included because of his absence from the scene. To deny TaeJa's ability to win and to beat the best of the best when they are considered the best, is folly.
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Measure what is measurable, and make measurable what is not so.
You can compare Taeja to the others. He is still a starcraft player, which is the only implicit criterion.
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Then, by your admission, he is one of the best HoTS players. Taking into account everything he has accomplished in HoTS, against the best players, he deserves the ranking.
I submitted my argument in hopes to move on from the details and the minutia, as those can and will be, hotly contested. Looking purely upon his body of work, TaeJa is one of the best, top 5, no argument. No matter the league he played in.
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Taeja and sOs are very similar IMHO. They are both "weekend warriors", with neither of them having won a GSL/SSL or WCS because they are just not that good in that kind of tourney, and if Taeja would have participated in PL I think his results would have been close to sOs there. I think I would give the edge to Taeja tho, since he was less reliant of BO/cheesy wins.
Also funny how some ppl would put any of them so high up without a GSL/SSL/WCS win to their name; at some point actual results in those SHOULD count for something, right? 
I mainly agree with Stuchiu's list, except for the #2 Taeja obviously.
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On March 19 2016 23:30 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Then, by your admission, he is one of the best HoTS players. Taking into account everything he has accomplished in HoTS, against the best players, he deserves the ranking.
I submitted my argument in hopes to move on from the details and the minutia, as those can and will be, hotly contested. Looking purely upon his body of work, TaeJa is one of the best, top 5, no argument. No matter the league he played in.
He is one of the best of HotS, no discussion here. As you say he is hard to place "correctly" intuitively, but I believe any somewhat prestigeous ranking should attempt to use some more scientific methodology anyways, like this ranking does.
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On March 19 2016 23:31 waiting2Bbanned wrote:Taeja and sOs are very similar IMHO. They are both "weekend warriors", with neither of them having won a GSL/SSL or WCS because they are just not that good in that kind of tourney, and if Taeja would have participated in PL I think his results would have been close to sOs there. I think I would give the edge to Taeja tho, since he was less reliant of BO/cheesy wins. Also funny how some ppl would put any of them so high up without a GSL/SSL/WCS win to their name; at some point actual results in those SHOULD count for something, right? I mainly agree with Stuchiu's list, except for the #2 Taeja obviously.
For the record, TaeJa played a season of Proleague with the EG-TL alliance. 9 wins, 10 losses.
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The obvious issue of Taeja being too high has pretty much been summarized from every angle already. As has sOs being too low. And earlier about Classic being ridiculously outside the top ten.
Another glaring problem for me (and surprised by the almost complete lack of discussion on this point) is Maru not being at minimum, in the top 5, for what seems to be most folks personal rankings, including this one.
+ Show Spoiler +My final HOTS S class tier:
7) soO
6) herO
5) Zest
4) Maru
3) Life
2) sOs
1) Inno
Back in Part 1 of the rankings, I laid out in depth why because of his absolutely dominant PL role/results (undisputed ace player for a constant high-level playoff team), multiple Starleague titles and numerous other high finishes, and maybe most impressively, dominating the meta (especially against P) through long stretches when T was generally down and out.
Because of his limited exposure overseas and unimpressive results in the few foreign events, many fans seem to not have a complete picture of just how dominant he was for almost all of 2014 and 2015. He was constantly asked to carry JAGW on his back (while also excelling in individual leagues). Other than perhaps herO and Zest for stretches, no one on a week-to-week basis the last two PL seasons so utterly outclassed their world-class opposition in the most challenging team league in the world. He struck fear into the hearts of all P (back when they were dominating as they did for much of HOTS) by employing an ultra micro-intensive, nonstop multitask aggressive bio playstyle, that no one else was capable of emulating or preparing against.
Based on the totality of his achievements, Maru has to be a mandatory top five in any HOTS GOAT ranking. And for me, he's at least locked into a top four slot. With clear wiggle room to be top three.
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On March 20 2016 02:18 Orr wrote:The obvious issue of Taeja being too high has pretty much been summarized from every angle already. As has sOs being too low. And earlier about Classic being ridiculously outside the top ten. Another glaring problem for me (and surprised by the almost complete lack of discussion on this point) is Maru not being at minimum, in the top 5, for what seems to be most folks personal rankings, including this one. + Show Spoiler +My final HOTS S class tier:
7) soO
6) herO
5) Zest
4) Maru
3) Life
2) sOs
1) Inno Back in Part 1 of the rankings, I laid out in depth why because of his absolutely dominant PL role/results (undisputed ace player for a constant high-level playoff team), multiple Starleague titles and numerous other high finishes, and maybe most impressively, dominating the meta (especially against P) through long stretches when T was generally down and out. Because of his limited exposure overseas and unimpressive results in the few foreign events, many fans seem to not have a complete picture of just how dominant he was for almost all of 2014 and 2015. He was constantly asked to carry JAGW on his back (while also excelling in individual leagues). Other than perhaps herO and Zest for stretches, no one on a week-to-week basis the last two PL seasons so utterly outclassed their world-class opposition in the most challenging team league in the world. He struck fear into the hearts of all P (back when they were dominating as they did for much of HOTS) by employing an ultra micro-intensive, nonstop multitask aggressive bio playstyle, that no one else was capable of emulating or preparing against. Based on the totality of his achievements, Maru has to be a mandatory top five in any HOTS GOAT ranking. And for me, he's at least locked into a top four slot. With clear wiggle room to be top three.
Going off of what Stuchiu has proposed, I can understand why Maru is where he is. If anything, these rankings should be broken down into multiple categories to attempt to satisfy all contingencies. I've seen few PL matches simply because of the time. I try to catch the VODs if possible, but my time is split severely in multiple directions.
There should be a Koren Team League Ranking (GOAT/HoTS), Korean HoTS GOAT, and then the general where everything is taken into account like what was done here. If someone would take this charge upon themselves, I doubt we would have as much argument as we do when TaeJa is placed in a general ranking system.
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On March 20 2016 02:28 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 02:18 Orr wrote:The obvious issue of Taeja being too high has pretty much been summarized from every angle already. As has sOs being too low. And earlier about Classic being ridiculously outside the top ten. Another glaring problem for me (and surprised by the almost complete lack of discussion on this point) is Maru not being at minimum, in the top 5, for what seems to be most folks personal rankings, including this one. + Show Spoiler +My final HOTS S class tier:
7) soO
6) herO
5) Zest
4) Maru
3) Life
2) sOs
1) Inno Back in Part 1 of the rankings, I laid out in depth why because of his absolutely dominant PL role/results (undisputed ace player for a constant high-level playoff team), multiple Starleague titles and numerous other high finishes, and maybe most impressively, dominating the meta (especially against P) through long stretches when T was generally down and out. Because of his limited exposure overseas and unimpressive results in the few foreign events, many fans seem to not have a complete picture of just how dominant he was for almost all of 2014 and 2015. He was constantly asked to carry JAGW on his back (while also excelling in individual leagues). Other than perhaps herO and Zest for stretches, no one on a week-to-week basis the last two PL seasons so utterly outclassed their world-class opposition in the most challenging team league in the world. He struck fear into the hearts of all P (back when they were dominating as they did for much of HOTS) by employing an ultra micro-intensive, nonstop multitask aggressive bio playstyle, that no one else was capable of emulating or preparing against. Based on the totality of his achievements, Maru has to be a mandatory top five in any HOTS GOAT ranking. And for me, he's at least locked into a top four slot. With clear wiggle room to be top three. Going off of what Stuchiu has proposed, I can understand why Maru is where he is. If anything, these rankings should be broken down into multiple categories to attempt to satisfy all contingencies. I've seen few PL matches simply because of the time. I try to catch the VODs if possible, but my time is split severely in multiple directions. There should be a Koren Team League Ranking (GOAT/HoTS), Korean HoTS GOAT, and then the general where everything is taken into account like what was done here. If someone would take this charge upon themselves, I doubt we would have as much argument as we do when TaeJa is placed in a general ranking system. The problem with stuchiu is that he didnt gave a f*ck about PL, why i have 0 idea.
Proleague is one of the most prestigious league in sc2, and a lot of koreans would probably choose to play the PL final over SSL finals. I have been to korea, my girlfriend is from korea, and she hears way more of PL than GSL/SSL.
And theres absolutely no way stuchiu cared about PL while doing his rankings, otherwise, sOs woudl be way higher, Maru also, while Life would defenitly not be #1 and taeja not #2.
Which is a shame he didnt cared, since PL is really great and prestigious.
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Precisely why this is considered a general evaluation over all of HoTS and not just the Korean scene. A lot of players would never get ranked in any system because they didn't play at all or barely played. This is a general ranking, excluding PL because it wouldn't be fair to a lot of players if that was included. TaeJa didn't play in PL, but he's still one of the best. As I said before, to deny him a ranking on ANY GOAT list is unfair because he didn't play there.
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On March 20 2016 03:44 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Precisely why this is considered a general evaluation over all of HoTS and not just the Korean scene. A lot of players would never get ranked in any system because they didn't play at all or barely played. This is a general ranking, excluding PL because it wouldn't be fair to a lot of players if that was included. TaeJa didn't play in PL, but he's still one of the best. As I said before, to deny him a ranking on ANY GOAT list is unfair because he didn't play there.
I don't understand this reasoning. So if a player decides to only play online tournaments but he wins 90% of them (inlcuding ones where s class players participate) he should be on a goat list as well?
Obviously this is an exaggerated taeja case, but you get the point i think?
If you don't play in the most competetive tournaments you simply cannot be high on a goat list in my opinion.
If you do not play in the english/german/spanish/italian league and championsleague/world championship you will never be considered a great soccer player, simply because people accept that you have to be great in the most competetive leagues.
I don't watch basketball but i doubt people give a damn about people who do not play in the nba.
Why should it be different in starcraft? (i don't wanna deny Taeja a place somewhere in the list, he obviously had impressive results on his own, but i still think i have a good point )
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You're comparing highly visible sports such as NBA, FIFA, etc, to SC2? I get the point, but it's completely different.
No, I wouldn't consider someone who wins 90% online cups on a GOAT list. These must be offline, LAN tournaments.
But yes, I understand your point. It just feels like your reaching for reasons to denounce TaeJa.
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On March 20 2016 04:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
You're comparing highly visible sports such as NBA, FIFA, etc, to SC2? I get the point, but it's completely different.
No, I wouldn't consider someone who wins 90% online cups on a GOAT list. These must be offline, LAN tournaments.
But yes, I understand your point. It just feels like your reaching for reasons to denounce TaeJa.
But it doesn't matter what lvl of competition these LAN tournaments feature?
Or do you simply disagree that IEM/Dreamhack/etc aren't really comparable to GSL/SSL?
I don't think i am reaching, i think Taeja was/is a great player, just not as great as the majority (i think) says he is.
Also why is it "completely different" ? You said it is but gave no reasoning.
Imo putting Taeja at place two in such a list is like putting someone high in real sports who never played at an international level but dominated nationally (ironically in sc2 "international level" is playing in korea, not at weekend stuff)
Typically at this point in the discussion people tell me that weekend tournaments had high lvl s class players competing too, yes that is true, but a few of them competing at a weekend tournament IS NOT the same as all of them competing for every korean starleague/in proleague.
I don't wanna deny that Taeja had to beat players like Zest, Life, Innovation, etc to win some of his tournaments, but in GSL you have to beat really strong players every single round, every single s class player is competing.
That is the big difference, not even talking about preparation vs non preparation because i think this factor isn't as important as the point i just tried to make.
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Austria24422 Posts
On March 19 2016 21:10 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2016 11:31 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On March 19 2016 06:43 BlackZetsu wrote:On March 19 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2016 04:26 Big J wrote:
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league. Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list. Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive: Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example. It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack.
This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant.
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On March 20 2016 04:32 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2016 21:10 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2016 11:31 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On March 19 2016 06:43 BlackZetsu wrote:On March 19 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2016 04:26 Big J wrote:
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league. Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list. Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive: Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example. It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack. This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant.
More prestige = way higher pressure
Ask any Olympic athlete: the pressure gets unreal, the higher the prestige is.
Prestige is not irrelevant at all. This comment just proves how biased you are.
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Austria24422 Posts
On March 20 2016 04:47 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 04:32 Olli wrote:On March 19 2016 21:10 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2016 11:31 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On March 19 2016 06:43 BlackZetsu wrote:On March 19 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2016 04:26 Big J wrote:
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league. Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list. Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive: Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example. It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack. This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant. More prestige = way higher pressure Ask any Olympic athlete: the pressure gets unreal, the higher the prestige is. Prestige is not irrelevant at all. This comment just proves how biased you are.
This comment shows why I've never taken you seriously.
Everything you said is based on assumptions. It's just as difficult to beat the best in the world at Dreamhack as it is to beat them somewhere else with a bigger prize pool and more prestige. You forget that a lot of prestige simply comes from the way tournaments are built up and their prize pool. So Katowice had 100k winner takes all, does that somehow make it more impressive than a GSL? Absolutely not.
People in here are arguing in favor of sOs, using the same arguments in his favor that they then use against Taeja. sOs too has never won a GSL or Starleague. He just has an uncanny ability to show up big when prestige is high and that's what clouds people's judgement.
Not that Taeja's done poorly in high pressure situations anyway, he was the best player at Blizzcon 2014.
And I don't even know how I got dragged into the Taeja argument, I wasn't even talking about him. Prestige in general is just idiotic to take into account when you're doing an evaluation of skill.
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On March 20 2016 04:53 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 04:47 sharkie wrote:On March 20 2016 04:32 Olli wrote:On March 19 2016 21:10 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2016 11:31 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On March 19 2016 06:43 BlackZetsu wrote:On March 19 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2016 04:26 Big J wrote:
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league. Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list. Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive: Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example. It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack. This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant. More prestige = way higher pressure Ask any Olympic athlete: the pressure gets unreal, the higher the prestige is. Prestige is not irrelevant at all. This comment just proves how biased you are. ... take into account when you're doing an evaluation of skill.
Love that last part. Succinct
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On March 20 2016 04:53 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 04:47 sharkie wrote:On March 20 2016 04:32 Olli wrote:On March 19 2016 21:10 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2016 11:31 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On March 19 2016 06:43 BlackZetsu wrote:On March 19 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2016 04:26 Big J wrote:
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league. Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list. Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive: Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example. It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack. This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant. More prestige = way higher pressure Ask any Olympic athlete: the pressure gets unreal, the higher the prestige is. Prestige is not irrelevant at all. This comment just proves how biased you are. This comment shows why I've never taken you seriously. Everything you said is based on assumptions. It's just as difficult to beat the best in the world at Dreamhack as it is to beat them somewhere else with a bigger prize pool and more prestige. You forget that a lot of prestige simply comes from the way tournaments are built up and their prize pool. So Katowice had 100k winner takes all, does that somehow make it more impressive than a GSL? Absolutely not. People in here are arguing in favor of sOs, using the same arguments in his favor that they then use against Taeja. sOs too has never won a GSL or Starleague. He just has an uncanny ability to show up big when prestige is high and that's what clouds people's judgement. Not that Taeja's done poorly in high pressure situations anyway, he was the best player at Blizzcon 2014. And I don't even know how I got dragged into the Taeja argument, I wasn't even talking about him. Prestige in general is just idiotic to take into account when you're doing an evaluation of skill.
Well, if prestige is completely irrelevant then winning a stacked qualifier should count as much as winning blizzcon wouldn't it? Since you have to beat the same level of players.
Performing well when it really counts is what makes a champion, nobody cares if you beat everyone in small ass tournaments if you can't beat them in the important ones.
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EPT
