EPTSo when the competition gets toughest, sOs is toughest of them all. When everyone is playing their best, sOs is the best.
Think about that stuchiu.
Greatest HotS Players of All Time: Part 3 - Page 8
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Topim0
Finland8 Posts
So when the competition gets toughest, sOs is toughest of them all. When everyone is playing their best, sOs is the best. Think about that stuchiu. | ||
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Yonnua
United Kingdom2331 Posts
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phantomfive
Korea (South)404 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On March 19 2016 02:43 BlackZetsu wrote: Category Innovation sOs Advantage Blizzcon Championships 0 2 sOs GSL Championships 2 0 Innovation IEM 1 - Gamescome 1 - Katowice sOs Proleague 72% Winrate 2015 Tied Most Wins 2014; 61% winrate, 2 all kills 2015 sOs WCS Season Championship 1 0 Innovation 2nd Places GSL 2013; Dreamhack Bucharest 2013 2013 WCS Season 1; Red Bull Battlegrounds NY 2013 Even Minor Tournament Championships None 2015 MSI; 2014 Hot6 Cup sOs 2013 GSL Top 4, Top 16; Top 4, Top 32, Top 16 Even 2014 GSL Top 16; Top 8, Top 32, Top 16 sOs 2015 GSL/SSL SSL: Top 32, Top 32, Top 8 GSL: Top 8, Top 16 SSL: Top 32, Top 16 GSL: Top 4, Top 16 Innovation The big difference is sOs’s Blizzcons, IEM Katowice and 2014 Proleague vs Innovation’s 2 GSL’s and WCS 2013 Season 1 Championship. Most people are weighting GSLs higher than Blizzcons, so I will give the argument for why Blizzcon should be weighted higher: 1. It is easier for a player in Korea to make it to the Ro16 of GSL than to make it to Blizzcon. Thus, only the best of the best from Korea will make it to Blizzcon. 2. The “foreign” Koreans at 2013 Blizzcon were still in their prime and defeated all of the GSL Koreans in attendance (except for sOs). 3. 2015 Blizzcon was stacked with the best Koreans due to the double GSL/SSL tournament system in Korea. sOs defeated Parting, Rain, Rogue and Life. Innovation lost in the 2nd round to Life. 4. The pressure of winning on the big global stage is greater than in the comfortable confines of the GSL studio. 5. Money is the most objective measurement of a tournament’s significance, and it can be safely assumed that players will put the most effort into winning the most money. Even if you weigh Blizzcon and GSL evenly, sOs comes out ahead in other categories. Innovation did not play in 2014 Proleague, while sOs tied for most Proleague wins that season. Innovatoin’s other championships are WCS Season 1 2013 and IEM Gamescom, while sOs won IEM Katowice, 2014 Hot6 Cup and MSI Masters. Winning a WCS Season finals is obviously top tier, but winning IEM Katowice and a Hot6 Cup outweighs it. It’s close, maybe even closer than sOs and Life, but I think sOs gets the slight edge. I don't like your checklist system all that much, you choose different categories for a lot of things which could be simply one (like gsl results overall, no need to look at every year on its own) I wanna talk about your "blizzcon > gsl" thing. Sure it is harder to qualify for blizzcon but that is only the case because every other tournament is a qualifier for it. Which is also why this part shouldn't be counted for blizzcon because we already value all the other tournament results seperately anyway. That qualifiying process also means that players can attend blizzcon who were on a hot streak several months ago, theoretically most players could already be in a slump when playing at blizzcon. The same isn't true for korean starleagues, at least not nearly to the same extent. Korean starleagues also have a more competetive playerbase because every single one of the players actually plays in the most competetive region. Blizzcon you also have players who farm weekend tournaments/wcs na/eu To win a korean starleague you have to win at least 18 games against 6 players (SSL) or 19 games against 7 players (GSL). Compare that to the 13 games against 4 players at blizzcon. This should be enough to convince you tbh. Blizzcon might be the most competetive thing after GSL/SSL/OSL, but even there Kespa Cup might take the spot tbh. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3489 Posts
He is easily HotS' greatest player and most likely the greatest Zerg SC2 will ever have. He is easily HotS' greatest player and most likely the greatest player SC2 will ever have. Until more details are released regarding his role in the match fixing and the benefits he received, and until the tournament organizers and KeSPA strip him of his titles, he is still the greatest player in Heart of the Swarm. Until more details are released regarding his role in the match fixing and the benefits he received, and until the tournament organizers and KeSPA strip him of his titles, he is still the greatest player of all time. FTFY | ||
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Apoteosis
Chile820 Posts
Mvp won half of his titles in the era when Terran was OP as hell, basically since the launch of the game, in 2010, until late 2011. If it wasn't for Fruitdealer and Nestea (a player much more talented, in the strategy aspect, than Mvp), the first half of WoL would be just pure terran domination (zerg and protoss winning during that time were by far the exception than the rule). About Taeja, the guy has never won a GSL or a Korean tournament in general. His best results are two RO4, in a 6 year span. Like, come on. It is as if you put George Best in the second place of the greatest football players, despising the fact that he never won a world cup. But anyways, is his list. It's not like he is being objective or something: it's just his opinion. | ||
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TsogiMaster
191 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On the flipside you can look up Life's 2013 MLG Winter Championship title which was an invitational featuring probably a quite better lineup to begin with and being one round longer. And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league. | ||
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Alarak89
United States882 Posts
On March 19 2016 02:43 BlackZetsu wrote: Category Innovation sOs Advantage Blizzcon Championships 0 2 sOs GSL Championships 2 0 Innovation IEM 1 - Gamescome 1 - Katowice sOs Proleague 72% Winrate 2015 Tied Most Wins 2014; 61% winrate, 2 all kills 2015 sOs WCS Season Championship 1 0 Innovation 2nd Places GSL 2013; Dreamhack Bucharest 2013 2013 WCS Season 1; Red Bull Battlegrounds NY 2013 Even Minor Tournament Championships None 2015 MSI; 2014 Hot6 Cup sOs 2013 GSL Top 4, Top 16; Top 4, Top 32, Top 16 Even 2014 GSL Top 16; Top 8, Top 32, Top 16 sOs 2015 GSL/SSL SSL: Top 32, Top 32, Top 8 GSL: Top 8, Top 16 SSL: Top 32, Top 16 GSL: Top 4, Top 16 Innovation The big difference is sOs’s Blizzcons, IEM Katowice and 2014 Proleague vs Innovation’s 2 GSL’s and WCS 2013 Season 1 Championship. Most people are weighting GSLs higher than Blizzcons, so I will give the argument for why Blizzcon should be weighted higher: 1. It is easier for a player in Korea to make it to the Ro16 of GSL than to make it to Blizzcon. Thus, only the best of the best from Korea will make it to Blizzcon. 2. The “foreign” Koreans at 2013 Blizzcon were still in their prime and defeated all of the GSL Koreans in attendance (except for sOs). 3. 2015 Blizzcon was stacked with the best Koreans due to the double GSL/SSL tournament system in Korea. sOs defeated Parting, Rain, Rogue and Life. Innovation lost in the 2nd round to Life. 4. The pressure of winning on the big global stage is greater than in the comfortable confines of the GSL studio. 5. Money is the most objective measurement of a tournament’s significance, and it can be safely assumed that players will put the most effort into winning the most money. Even if you weigh Blizzcon and GSL evenly, sOs comes out ahead in other categories. Innovation did not play in 2014 Proleague, while sOs tied for most Proleague wins that season. Innovatoin’s other championships are WCS Season 1 2013 and IEM Gamescom, while sOs won IEM Katowice, 2014 Hot6 Cup and MSI Masters. Winning a WCS Season finals is obviously top tier, but winning IEM Katowice and a Hot6 Cup outweighs it. It’s close, maybe even closer than sOs and Life, but I think sOs gets the slight edge. I really hoped Innovation could make to the WCS final 2015. So that sOs will have a chance to revenge him and be an ultimate champion of HotS era. But unfortunately Innovation failed too early  I knew Life's play style is not good against sOs even before the final. I can tell that from their historical head to head match scores, Life is too aggressive and that's what sOs likes the most. But Innovation vs sOs? I cannot tell the result before the game actually start, although I still think sOs has big advantage since his PvT was almost unbeatable and Innovation was not in a good shape back then. | ||
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BlackZetsu
United States179 Posts
On March 19 2016 03:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: I don't like your checklist system all that much, you choose different categories for a lot of things which could be simply one (like gsl results overall, no need to look at every year on its own) I don't like your posting system all that much. You choose minor things to criticize about posters who put careful consideration and effort into explaining their reasoning, while offering nothing constructive yourself. Sure it is harder to qualify for blizzcon but that is only the case because every other tournament is a qualifier for it. Which is also why this part shouldn't be counted for blizzcon because we already value all the other tournament results seperately anyway. Blizzcon reflects total performance over the year. Simply getting into Blizzcon shouldn't count for much in the rankings, but winning Blizzcon reflects a triumph over the players who were the best in the world that year. That qualifiying process also means that players can attend blizzcon who were on a hot streak several months ago, theoretically most players could already be in a slump when playing at blizzcon. The same isn't true for korean starleagues, at least not nearly to the same extent. True. But on the other hand, there are no other tournaments happening at the same time as Blizzcon, so all 16 players are able to focus exclusively on preparing for it. The same can't be said for most if not all of the other tournaments. Korean starleagues also have a more competetive playerbase because every single one of the players actually plays in the most competetive region. Blizzcon you also have players who farm weekend tournaments/wcs na/eu I already addressed this. In 2013, the players from the "most competitive region" (other than sOs) all lost to the "players who farm weekend tournaments/wcs na/eu." 2014 obviously had a very weak Blizzcon, but sOs wasn't there. 2015 had a super stacked Blizzcon with 13 players from the Korean region ... and sOs won. To win a korean starleague you have to win at least 18 games against 6 players (SSL) or 19 games against 7 players (GSL). Compare that to the 13 games against 4 players at blizzcon. A lot of players who aren't top tier make it into the Ro32 and Ro16 of GSL every season. Only the very best players from the year make it to GSL. Maybe 2014 Blizzcon was weaker than some Code S's, but 2013 and 2015 Blizzcon were harder than most if not all GSL Ro16s. This should be enough to convince you tbh. No. tbh Blizzcon might be the most competetive thing after GSL/SSL/OSL, but even there Kespa Cup might take the spot tbh. Already addressed. | ||
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Lil_nooblet
United States459 Posts
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On March 18 2016 11:12 BlackZetsu wrote: An absolute joke of a list that belittles the accomplishment of winning the most difficult tournaments and caters solely to fan favorites. The Real Top 15: 1. sOs 2. Life 3. Innovation 4. Classic 5. Maru 6. herO 7. Zest 8. Rain 9. soO 10. Dear 11. Soulkey 12. Byul 13. Parting 14. Polt 15. Taeja This list has maru higher up than the article list, so it's probably better. | ||
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Frenchy91
France36 Posts
If Stuchiu was writting about football or tennis, we might have had Zlatan and Tsonga as greatest players of all time... 90% of the people here agree that you have to perform at the right moment, in the greatest tournaments... Some players have beaten Nadal in small tournament but never at his peak in Rolland Garros. Some Masters 1000 are stacked as hell with all the top 10 but guess what ? That's not a grand slam. In this logic, if Bolt is beaten in some shitty meeting he's not the greatest ? He's the Olympic champion, end of the discussion. This article is beyond ridiculous, Taeja was not even able to win a WCS America... Inno, Sos, Maru, Life, Zest, even Soo are miles ahead... Taeja : non existent in GSL, OSL, WCS Finals, WCS America, WCS Global Finals... | ||
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G5
United States2921 Posts
On March 19 2016 05:27 Frenchy91 wrote: God what a joke... If Stuchiu was writting about football or tennis, we might have had Zlatan and Tsonga as greatest players of all time... 90% of the people here agree that you have to perform at the right moment, in the greatest tournaments... Some players have beaten Nadal in small tournament but never at his peak in Rolland Garros. Some Masters 1000 are stacked as hell with all the top 10 but guess what ? That's not a grand slam. In this logic, if Bolt is beaten in some shitty meeting he's not the greatest ? He's the Olympic champion, end of the discussion. This article is beyond ridiculous, Taeja was not even able to win a WCS America... Inno, Sos, Maru, Life, Zest, even Soo are miles ahead... Taeja : non existent in GSL, OSL, WCS Finals, WCS America, WCS Global Finals... LOVE THIS You are on point sir! | ||
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Alex007
Ukraine211 Posts
Imagine if stuchiu would be Jaedong's fan too. 15 Premier TOP4 finishes in HotS, 14-15 vs Taeja-God himself - easy #3 of the list! | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On March 19 2016 05:05 BlackZetsu wrote: I don't like your posting system all that much. You choose minor things to criticize about posters who put careful consideration and effort into explaining their reasoning, while offering nothing constructive yourself. Blizzcon reflects total performance over the year. Simply getting into Blizzcon shouldn't count for much in the rankings, but winning Blizzcon reflects a triumph over the players who were the best in the world that year. True. But on the other hand, there are no other tournaments happening at the same time as Blizzcon, so all 16 players are able to focus exclusively on preparing for it. The same can't be said for most if not all of the other tournaments. I already addressed this. In 2013, the players from the "most competitive region" (other than sOs) all lost to the "players who farm weekend tournaments/wcs na/eu." 2014 obviously had a very weak Blizzcon, but sOs wasn't there. 2015 had a super stacked Blizzcon with 13 players from the Korean region ... and sOs won. A lot of players who aren't top tier make it into the Ro32 and Ro16 of GSL every season. Only the very best players from the year make it to GSL. Maybe 2014 Blizzcon was weaker than some Code S's, but 2013 and 2015 Blizzcon were harder than most if not all GSL Ro16s. No. tbh Already addressed. Ok let's agree to disagree, i think you are incredibly biased towards sOs (looking at your category system and how much you value blizzcon when it is clearly not the highest lvl of competition) The only thing i really can agree on is that proleague should be part of the criteria, that's about it though. | ||
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BlackZetsu
United States179 Posts
On March 19 2016 05:08 Lil_nooblet wrote: Wait do some people actually think winning Blizzcon is more impressive and difficult than winning a gsl? lol Well for one, there are more opportunities to win a GSL. In fact, 9 players were able to win a GSL/SSL. Only 2 were able to win a Blizzcon. In addition, even making it to Blizzcon requires an elite level of performance over the course of a year. In GSL, it’s possible you just catch a hot streak at the right time. It’s also easier for weaker players to slip into the Ro16 of GSL than Blizzcon. 2014 Blizzcon is the obvious exception, but sOs wasn’t at 2014 Blizzcon so that’s irrelevant to him. The 2013 and 2015 Blizzcons that sOs won were stacked. In 2013 Blizzcon, it’s arguable that a good portion of the “foreign” participants were better than the GSL participants. In fact, all the GSL participants except sOs lost to the “foreign” Koreans at 2013 Blizzcon. There are no other tournaments happening concurrently with Blizzcon, so all the players are giving it their 100% focus. Being on the big global stage is more intimidating than the familiar confines of the GSL studio. Finally, having the largest prize pool means players will be trying their hardest to win Blizzcon over other tournaments. | ||
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BlackZetsu
United States179 Posts
On March 19 2016 06:15 The_Red_Viper wrote: Ok let's agree to disagree, i think you are incredibly biased towards sOs (looking at your category system and how much you value blizzcon when it is clearly not the highest lvl of competition) The only think i really can agree on is that proleague should be part of the criteria, that's about it though. I'm not even an sOs fan. I hate him because of what he did to my favorite player herO at IEM Katowice. But his results speak for themselves. | ||
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Ensiferum8
Canada103 Posts
On March 19 2016 06:15 The_Red_Viper wrote: well, you are also incredibly bias towards stuchiu.Ok let's agree to disagree, i think you are incredibly biased towards sOs (looking at your category system and how much you value blizzcon when it is clearly not the highest lvl of competition) The only think i really can agree on is that proleague should be part of the criteria, that's about it though. I dont agree 100% with BlackZetsu, but at least, he spent a lot of times explaining his processus and decision, and I really respect that. You on the other, except trolling, you just said ''Nah, you are bias!!! Blizzcon is garbage!! even Kespa cup is more important!! '' Without any explanation whatsoever. GSL round of 16 might be more stacked that blizzcon round of 16, but theres also more pressure playing there...... | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On March 19 2016 04:26 Big J wrote: And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league. Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list. | ||
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