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On March 20 2016 04:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 04:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
You're comparing highly visible sports such as NBA, FIFA, etc, to SC2? I get the point, but it's completely different.
No, I wouldn't consider someone who wins 90% online cups on a GOAT list. These must be offline, LAN tournaments.
But yes, I understand your point. It just feels like your reaching for reasons to denounce TaeJa. But it doesn't matter what lvl of competition these LAN tournaments feature? Or do you simply disagree that IEM/Dreamhack/etc aren't really comparable to GSL/SSL? I don't think i am reaching, i think Taeja was/is a great player, just not as great as the majority (i think) says he is. Also why is it "completely different" ? You said it is but gave no reasoning. Imo putting Taeja at place two in such a list is like putting someone high in real sports who never played at an international level but dominated nationally (ironically in sc2 "international level" is playing in korea, not at weekend stuff) Typically at this point in the discussion people tell me that weekend tournaments had high lvl s class players competing too, yes that is true, but a few of them competing at a weekend tournament IS NOT the same as all of them competing for every korean starleague/in proleague. I don't wanna deny that Taeja had to beat players like Zest, Life, Innovation, etc to win some of his tournaments, but in GSL you have to beat really strong players every single round, every single s class player is competing. That is the big difference, not even talking about preparation vs non preparation because i think this factor isn't as important as the point i just tried to make.
Then what happened to a lot of the players that aren't in GSL/SSL right now? They got knocked out by some questionable players and some had to play very strong players early on. Unfortunate, but any player at any time is capable of having a bad day (Rogue). That's the crux of the game.
The lvl of competition at the offline events matter of course. And I agree that GSL/SSL is harder to an extent. But once those same players come over to IEM/Dreamhack, they should still be able to perform if they are the best. TaeJa took a year off to heal and now he's playing at an incredible level given his recent showings.
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Austria24422 Posts
On March 20 2016 05:16 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 04:53 Olli wrote:On March 20 2016 04:47 sharkie wrote:On March 20 2016 04:32 Olli wrote:On March 19 2016 21:10 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2016 11:31 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On March 19 2016 06:43 BlackZetsu wrote:On March 19 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2016 04:26 Big J wrote:
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league. Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list. Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive: Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX  You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example. It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack. This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant. More prestige = way higher pressure Ask any Olympic athlete: the pressure gets unreal, the higher the prestige is. Prestige is not irrelevant at all. This comment just proves how biased you are. This comment shows why I've never taken you seriously. Everything you said is based on assumptions. It's just as difficult to beat the best in the world at Dreamhack as it is to beat them somewhere else with a bigger prize pool and more prestige. You forget that a lot of prestige simply comes from the way tournaments are built up and their prize pool. So Katowice had 100k winner takes all, does that somehow make it more impressive than a GSL? Absolutely not. People in here are arguing in favor of sOs, using the same arguments in his favor that they then use against Taeja. sOs too has never won a GSL or Starleague. He just has an uncanny ability to show up big when prestige is high and that's what clouds people's judgement. Not that Taeja's done poorly in high pressure situations anyway, he was the best player at Blizzcon 2014. And I don't even know how I got dragged into the Taeja argument, I wasn't even talking about him. Prestige in general is just idiotic to take into account when you're doing an evaluation of skill. Well, if prestige is completely irrelevant then winning a stacked qualifier should count as much as winning blizzcon wouldn't it? Since you have to beat the same level of players. Performing well when it really counts is what makes a champion, nobody cares if you beat everyone in small ass tournaments if you can't beat them in the important ones.
Sort of, which is why I don't really differentiate there either. I was usually more impressed by whoever won the Korean IEM qualifiers than whoever won the actual tournament.
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On March 20 2016 04:53 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 04:47 sharkie wrote:On March 20 2016 04:32 Olli wrote:On March 19 2016 21:10 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2016 11:31 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On March 19 2016 06:43 BlackZetsu wrote:On March 19 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2016 04:26 Big J wrote:
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league. Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list. Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive: Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example. It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack. This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant. More prestige = way higher pressure Ask any Olympic athlete: the pressure gets unreal, the higher the prestige is. Prestige is not irrelevant at all. This comment just proves how biased you are. This comment shows why I've never taken you seriously. Everything you said is based on assumptions. It's just as difficult to beat the best in the world at Dreamhack as it is to beat them somewhere else with a bigger prize pool and more prestige. You forget that a lot of prestige simply comes from the way tournaments are built up and their prize pool. So Katowice had 100k winner takes all, does that somehow make it more impressive than a GSL? Absolutely not. People in here are arguing in favor of sOs, using the same arguments in his favor that they then use against Taeja. sOs too has never won a GSL or Starleague. He just has an uncanny ability to show up big when prestige is high and that's what clouds people's judgement. Not that Taeja's done poorly in high pressure situations anyway, he was the best player at Blizzcon 2014. And I don't even know how I got dragged into the Taeja argument, I wasn't even talking about him. Prestige in general is just idiotic to take into account when you're doing an evaluation of skill. you might not take him seriosuly, but i wont take you seriously neither if you say that prestige is completly irrelevant.
Like a lot of people mentionned to you, theres a huge difference between playing vs InnO, Maru, Life etc in a round of 16, or at a DH, than at the final of blizzcon. To anyone who played sports IRL it should be quite obvious.
And I have never seen a player like sOs playing so well under pressure. Just look at IEM, 100k WINNER TAKES ALL, and he has the balls to proxy gate herO multiple time when 100k is on the line.
The fact that sOs can perform so well at the most prestigious tournament is completly relevant, just like the fact that soO cant win a final is relevant to the rankings too.
You seem to be mostly the one that doesnt think like that, that in itself is a pretty big reason for why you should take his comment seriously 
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On March 20 2016 05:59 Ensiferum8 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 04:53 Olli wrote:On March 20 2016 04:47 sharkie wrote:On March 20 2016 04:32 Olli wrote:On March 19 2016 21:10 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2016 11:31 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On March 19 2016 06:43 BlackZetsu wrote:On March 19 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2016 04:26 Big J wrote:
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league. Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list. Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive: Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example. It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack. This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant. More prestige = way higher pressure Ask any Olympic athlete: the pressure gets unreal, the higher the prestige is. Prestige is not irrelevant at all. This comment just proves how biased you are. This comment shows why I've never taken you seriously. Everything you said is based on assumptions. It's just as difficult to beat the best in the world at Dreamhack as it is to beat them somewhere else with a bigger prize pool and more prestige. You forget that a lot of prestige simply comes from the way tournaments are built up and their prize pool. So Katowice had 100k winner takes all, does that somehow make it more impressive than a GSL? Absolutely not. People in here are arguing in favor of sOs, using the same arguments in his favor that they then use against Taeja. sOs too has never won a GSL or Starleague. He just has an uncanny ability to show up big when prestige is high and that's what clouds people's judgement. Not that Taeja's done poorly in high pressure situations anyway, he was the best player at Blizzcon 2014. And I don't even know how I got dragged into the Taeja argument, I wasn't even talking about him. Prestige in general is just idiotic to take into account when you're doing an evaluation of skill. you might not take him seriosuly, but i wont take you seriously neither if you say that prestige is completly irrelevant. Like a lot of people mentionned to you, theres a huge difference between playing vs InnO, Maru, Life etc in a round of 16, or at a DH, than at the final of blizzcon. To anyone who played sports IRL it should be quite obvious. And I have never seen a player like sOs playing so well under pressure. Just look at IEM, 100k WINNER TAKES ALL, and he has the balls to proxy gate herO multiple time when 100k is on the line. The fact that sOs can perform so well at the most prestigious tournament is completly relevant, just like the fact that soO cant win a final is relevant to the rankings too. You seem to be mostly the one that doesnt think like that, that in itself is a pretty big reason for why you should take his comment seriously
He's not the only one I agree with him mostly, though I do think it should have some factor in the rankings.
But overall I don't see how people can say sOs' Blizzcon 13 run was harder than some of the DH's of Taeja just because it was a Blizzcon. And i'm far more of a sOs fan than a Taeja one.
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On March 20 2016 04:53 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 04:47 sharkie wrote:On March 20 2016 04:32 Olli wrote:On March 19 2016 21:10 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2016 11:31 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On March 19 2016 06:43 BlackZetsu wrote:On March 19 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2016 04:26 Big J wrote:
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league. Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list. Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive: Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example. It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack. This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant. More prestige = way higher pressure Ask any Olympic athlete: the pressure gets unreal, the higher the prestige is. Prestige is not irrelevant at all. This comment just proves how biased you are. This comment shows why I've never taken you seriously. Everything you said is based on assumptions. It's just as difficult to beat the best in the world at Dreamhack as it is to beat them somewhere else with a bigger prize pool and more prestige. You forget that a lot of prestige simply comes from the way tournaments are built up and their prize pool. So Katowice had 100k winner takes all, does that somehow make it more impressive than a GSL? Absolutely not. People in here are arguing in favor of sOs, using the same arguments in his favor that they then use against Taeja. sOs too has never won a GSL or Starleague. He just has an uncanny ability to show up big when prestige is high and that's what clouds people's judgement. Not that Taeja's done poorly in high pressure situations anyway, he was the best player at Blizzcon 2014. And I don't even know how I got dragged into the Taeja argument, I wasn't even talking about him. Prestige in general is just idiotic to take into account when you're doing an evaluation of skill.
Wrong. From someone who played in various levels of Broodwar tournaments, there was a different sense of importance to me and everyone else playing in tournaments that matters as opposed to tournaments that didn't matter a whole lot. Prestige definitely makes a difference in mind-set and how much you prepare - even if you were playing the same person in both tournaments, the tournament determined how much weight that match would have and you would prepare and play accordingly.
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On March 20 2016 05:59 Ensiferum8 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 04:53 Olli wrote:On March 20 2016 04:47 sharkie wrote:On March 20 2016 04:32 Olli wrote:On March 19 2016 21:10 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2016 11:31 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On March 19 2016 06:43 BlackZetsu wrote:On March 19 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2016 04:26 Big J wrote:
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league. Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list. Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive: Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example. It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack. This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant. More prestige = way higher pressure Ask any Olympic athlete: the pressure gets unreal, the higher the prestige is. Prestige is not irrelevant at all. This comment just proves how biased you are. This comment shows why I've never taken you seriously. Everything you said is based on assumptions. It's just as difficult to beat the best in the world at Dreamhack as it is to beat them somewhere else with a bigger prize pool and more prestige. You forget that a lot of prestige simply comes from the way tournaments are built up and their prize pool. So Katowice had 100k winner takes all, does that somehow make it more impressive than a GSL? Absolutely not. People in here are arguing in favor of sOs, using the same arguments in his favor that they then use against Taeja. sOs too has never won a GSL or Starleague. He just has an uncanny ability to show up big when prestige is high and that's what clouds people's judgement. Not that Taeja's done poorly in high pressure situations anyway, he was the best player at Blizzcon 2014. And I don't even know how I got dragged into the Taeja argument, I wasn't even talking about him. Prestige in general is just idiotic to take into account when you're doing an evaluation of skill. you might not take him seriosuly, but i wont take you seriously neither if you say that prestige is completly irrelevant. Like a lot of people mentionned to you, theres a huge difference between playing vs InnO, Maru, Life etc in a round of 16, or at a DH, than at the final of blizzcon. To anyone who played sports IRL it should be quite obvious. And I have never seen a player like sOs playing so well under pressure. Just look at IEM, 100k WINNER TAKES ALL, and he has the balls to proxy gate herO multiple time when 100k is on the line. The fact that sOs can perform so well at the most prestigious tournament is completly relevant, just like the fact that soO cant win a final is relevant to the rankings too. You seem to be mostly the one that doesnt think like that, that in itself is a pretty big reason for why you should take his comment seriously
Indeed. I like Olli, but there is no way prestige is ever "completely and 100% irrelevant." In fact, I would argue it's one of the things that made Mvp great for example. Like, having the composure to keep going in game 7 against squirtle after the first attack with from the proxy raxes had been repelled? That takes guts man. But, like, on ladder? Sure why not. How big is that difference? Hard to say, but it IS difference, it is not completely irrelevant.
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On March 20 2016 09:48 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 05:59 Ensiferum8 wrote:On March 20 2016 04:53 Olli wrote:On March 20 2016 04:47 sharkie wrote:On March 20 2016 04:32 Olli wrote:On March 19 2016 21:10 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2016 11:31 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On March 19 2016 06:43 BlackZetsu wrote:On March 19 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2016 04:26 Big J wrote:
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league. Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list. Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive: Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example. It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack. This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant. More prestige = way higher pressure Ask any Olympic athlete: the pressure gets unreal, the higher the prestige is. Prestige is not irrelevant at all. This comment just proves how biased you are. This comment shows why I've never taken you seriously. Everything you said is based on assumptions. It's just as difficult to beat the best in the world at Dreamhack as it is to beat them somewhere else with a bigger prize pool and more prestige. You forget that a lot of prestige simply comes from the way tournaments are built up and their prize pool. So Katowice had 100k winner takes all, does that somehow make it more impressive than a GSL? Absolutely not. People in here are arguing in favor of sOs, using the same arguments in his favor that they then use against Taeja. sOs too has never won a GSL or Starleague. He just has an uncanny ability to show up big when prestige is high and that's what clouds people's judgement. Not that Taeja's done poorly in high pressure situations anyway, he was the best player at Blizzcon 2014. And I don't even know how I got dragged into the Taeja argument, I wasn't even talking about him. Prestige in general is just idiotic to take into account when you're doing an evaluation of skill. you might not take him seriosuly, but i wont take you seriously neither if you say that prestige is completly irrelevant. Like a lot of people mentionned to you, theres a huge difference between playing vs InnO, Maru, Life etc in a round of 16, or at a DH, than at the final of blizzcon. To anyone who played sports IRL it should be quite obvious. And I have never seen a player like sOs playing so well under pressure. Just look at IEM, 100k WINNER TAKES ALL, and he has the balls to proxy gate herO multiple time when 100k is on the line. The fact that sOs can perform so well at the most prestigious tournament is completly relevant, just like the fact that soO cant win a final is relevant to the rankings too. You seem to be mostly the one that doesnt think like that, that in itself is a pretty big reason for why you should take his comment seriously Indeed. I like Olli, but there is no way prestige is ever "completely and 100% irrelevant." In fact, I would argue it's one of the things that made Mvp great for example. Like, having the composure to keep going in game 7 against squirtle after the first attack with from the proxy raxes had been repelled? That takes guts man. But, like, on ladder? Sure why not. How big is that difference? Hard to say, but it IS difference, it is not completely irrelevant.
You speak of mindset and composure. Not prestige. The prestige of the tournament might matter to some people, but if they don't have the correct mindset going in or becomes rattled after a cheese, then they will more than likely fall short. Prestige helps when ranking winnings, but it's different for the people actually playing.
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On March 20 2016 09:28 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 04:53 Olli wrote:On March 20 2016 04:47 sharkie wrote:On March 20 2016 04:32 Olli wrote:On March 19 2016 21:10 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2016 11:31 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On March 19 2016 06:43 BlackZetsu wrote:On March 19 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2016 04:26 Big J wrote:
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league. Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list. Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive: Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example. It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack. This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant. More prestige = way higher pressure Ask any Olympic athlete: the pressure gets unreal, the higher the prestige is. Prestige is not irrelevant at all. This comment just proves how biased you are. This comment shows why I've never taken you seriously. Everything you said is based on assumptions. It's just as difficult to beat the best in the world at Dreamhack as it is to beat them somewhere else with a bigger prize pool and more prestige. You forget that a lot of prestige simply comes from the way tournaments are built up and their prize pool. So Katowice had 100k winner takes all, does that somehow make it more impressive than a GSL? Absolutely not. People in here are arguing in favor of sOs, using the same arguments in his favor that they then use against Taeja. sOs too has never won a GSL or Starleague. He just has an uncanny ability to show up big when prestige is high and that's what clouds people's judgement. Not that Taeja's done poorly in high pressure situations anyway, he was the best player at Blizzcon 2014. And I don't even know how I got dragged into the Taeja argument, I wasn't even talking about him. Prestige in general is just idiotic to take into account when you're doing an evaluation of skill. Wrong. From someone who played in various levels of Broodwar tournaments, there was a different sense of importance to me and everyone else playing in tournaments that matters as opposed to tournaments that didn't matter a whole lot. Prestige definitely makes a difference in mind-set and how much you prepare - even if you were playing the same person in both tournaments, the tournament determined how much weight that match would have and you would prepare and play accordingly.
Well put. And as other posters have already stated, anyone who has ever played any type of sport in some decently competitive capacity will immediately attest to this.
If we decide to not factor in the 'prestige' of any tournament when determining its importance (and solely the competition, or more specifically the players defeated on the way to the title),
and if it really has no bearing whatsoever on anyone's inherent skill/determination (to rise up when the stakes are the greatest),
then following Olli's logic, we might as well deduce ability/talent (and subsequently achievements) by random high level online cups (or even qualifiers as he suggests), played in the comfort of each player's own training house, on their favorite PC and chair situated in a darkened corner, in front of at most a few thousand random viewers at some obscure time, while in their pajamas and eating snacks while texting their friends between games (for all we know).
***Also not sure what Olli means by saying Taeja was the best player at Blizzcon 2014. I watched the entire stream live, as I'm sure many others here did too. The unforgivable technical glitches and constant lag-outs (in all rounds until the GF) clearly affected certain players more than others. Innovation seemed by far the most flustered and thrown off (visibly crying in frustration at the unacceptable setup). Which clearly seemed to contribute in being upset by Taeja (when he was strongly favored) 1-3 in the RO8. Regardless, in the next round, I saw Life defeat Taeja 3-2 in the RO4. And then crush an inspired MMA 4-1 in the GF. Maybe for TL staff it was scored differently, but for me, that makes Life (not Taeja) the clear-cut best player in that WCS Global Finals.
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Orr, I think Olli was referring to the path each one took.
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France12906 Posts
On March 20 2016 04:32 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2016 21:10 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2016 11:31 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On March 19 2016 06:43 BlackZetsu wrote:On March 19 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2016 04:26 Big J wrote:
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league. Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list. Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive: Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example. It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack. This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant.
For real?
Prestige and prize money add stacks and some players have more troubles winning these.
Otherwise you have to count online tourneys or whatever.
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A great result of this discussion is that there is still some passion in Starcraft 2. So maybe, it is not a dead game yet :-)
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Austria24422 Posts
On March 20 2016 11:16 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 04:32 Olli wrote:On March 19 2016 21:10 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2016 11:31 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On March 19 2016 06:43 BlackZetsu wrote:On March 19 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2016 04:26 Big J wrote:
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league. Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list. Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive: Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example. It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack. This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant. For real? Prestige and prize money add stacks and some players have more troubles winning these. Otherwise you have to count online tourneys or whatever.
I do. IEM KR qualifiers are some of the toughest tournaments out there for example.
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Of course prestige of the tournament matters, hence we shouldn't give too much weightage to H2H between players in less prestigious tournaments. And what defines 'prestige' is a matter of common perception (which usually, but not always correlates with prize money). That Korean Starleague is the most prestigious tournament to Koreans should be undeniable (Koreans playing abroad might differ, but they're the minority).
In badminton, there's this rivalry between Lin Dan (China) and Lee Chong Wei (Malaysia). Chong Wei has been the reigning World No. 1 for many years. But Lin Dan has a far more impressive trophy haul. In lesser tournaments, Chong Wei could take out Lin Dan, sometimes quite easily. But at the biggest stage, Lin Dan almost always emerges triumphant. Why is Lin Dan not No. 1? He's prone to slacking and bombing out in lesser tournaments. He has this cocky and laidback air about him. He's not bothered about World Rankings (part of why he ranks lowly is because he doesn't participate in as many lesser tourneys as Chong Wei) But on the biggest stage, he's a monster (Life-esque and sOs-esque). Ask any badminton fan, and they'll agree that Lin Dan is the greatest player in the past decade, not Chong Wei.
Point is, statistics alone don't tell you the full picture of a player's greatness. Prestige matters. And that requires giving proper weightage to tournaments. And to that, perception matters. And judging by this thread and elsewhere, the general perception is that Taeja's weekend victories and impressive H2H statistics against top players are really not as prestigious as the cumulative achievements of multi Starleague winners.
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France12906 Posts
On March 20 2016 18:31 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 11:16 Poopi wrote:On March 20 2016 04:32 Olli wrote:On March 19 2016 21:10 Poopi wrote:On March 19 2016 11:31 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On March 19 2016 06:43 BlackZetsu wrote:On March 19 2016 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:On March 19 2016 04:26 Big J wrote:
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league. Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list. Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive: Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example. It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack. This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant. For real? Prestige and prize money add stacks and some players have more troubles winning these. Otherwise you have to count online tourneys or whatever. I do. IEM KR qualifiers are some of the toughest tournaments out there for example.
Okay so the best list is the top 15 KR ladder, going by this logic . Tons of great players battling out each other for nothing but ladder points, but hey skill isn't even partially measured by prestige.
Oh wait... xd
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By the way, 'prestige' is simply a way to measure of how seriously players compete in a tournament (prestige here is seen from the perception of players, not viewers - though of course viewer perception can affect player perception).
So you could throw a fun-filled HSC-esque between the top KeSPA players, but it's still not as prestigious as Starleagues.
Ladder is a good example - the best Koreans duke out there on a daily basis, but the rankings and stats don't reflect the true skill and greatness of the players (who may be playing for fun, hiding builds, and saving energy for team-house games which their coaches probably pay more close attention to).
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On March 21 2016 00:45 RKC wrote:
By the way, 'prestige' is simply a way to measure of how seriously players compete in a tournament (prestige here is seen from the perception of players, not viewers - though of course viewer perception can affect player perception).
So you could throw a fun-filled HSC-esque between the top KeSPA players, but it's still not as prestigious as Starleagues.
Ladder is a good example - the best Koreans duke out there on a daily basis, but the rankings and stats don't reflect the true skill and greatness of the players (who may be playing for fun, hiding builds, and saving energy for team-house games which their coaches probably pay more close attention to).
One could argue that it's the same situation for both players, so it shouldn't inherently favor anyone.
Imo it should be seen somewhat like that:
is game played in some Premier leauge/tournament? --> both players will nearly always play the best they can and it doesn't really matter which tournament is "more prestigeous".
is the game a showmatch, ladder game or in some other form of lesser importance to the player --> one or both player might not take it too seriously. Winning doesn't tell too much about their ultimate greatness.
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On March 21 2016 00:57 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2016 00:45 RKC wrote:
By the way, 'prestige' is simply a way to measure of how seriously players compete in a tournament (prestige here is seen from the perception of players, not viewers - though of course viewer perception can affect player perception).
So you could throw a fun-filled HSC-esque between the top KeSPA players, but it's still not as prestigious as Starleagues.
Ladder is a good example - the best Koreans duke out there on a daily basis, but the rankings and stats don't reflect the true skill and greatness of the players (who may be playing for fun, hiding builds, and saving energy for team-house games which their coaches probably pay more close attention to). One could argue that it's the same situation for both players, so it shouldn't inherently favor anyone. Imo it should be seen somewhat like that: is game played in some Premier leauge/tournament? --> both players will nearly always play the best they can and it doesn't really matter which tournament is "more prestigeous". is the game a showmatch, ladder game or in some other form of lesser importance to the player --> one or both player might not take it too seriously. Winning doesn't tell too much about their ultimate greatness.
The basic idea probably is the bigger the potential money you can win, the harder it is to stay calm and focused.
Which in itself is one of the most important skills for being a s class player in pretty much every competition you can think of.
So i can see where this idea is coming from, but at one point i don't think it makes a lot of difference anymore so i agree with your general concept.
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On March 21 2016 05:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2016 00:57 Big J wrote:On March 21 2016 00:45 RKC wrote:
By the way, 'prestige' is simply a way to measure of how seriously players compete in a tournament (prestige here is seen from the perception of players, not viewers - though of course viewer perception can affect player perception).
So you could throw a fun-filled HSC-esque between the top KeSPA players, but it's still not as prestigious as Starleagues.
Ladder is a good example - the best Koreans duke out there on a daily basis, but the rankings and stats don't reflect the true skill and greatness of the players (who may be playing for fun, hiding builds, and saving energy for team-house games which their coaches probably pay more close attention to). One could argue that it's the same situation for both players, so it shouldn't inherently favor anyone. Imo it should be seen somewhat like that: is game played in some Premier leauge/tournament? --> both players will nearly always play the best they can and it doesn't really matter which tournament is "more prestigeous". is the game a showmatch, ladder game or in some other form of lesser importance to the player --> one or both player might not take it too seriously. Winning doesn't tell too much about their ultimate greatness. The basic idea probably is the bigger the potential money you can win, the harder it is to stay calm and focused. Which in itself is one of the most important skills for being a s class player in pretty much every competition you can think of. So i can see where this idea is coming from, but at one point i don't think it makes a lot of difference anymore so i agree with your general concept.
Yeah, I thought about this too, but to me that sounds a bit like double counting:
It's a prestigeous tournament, which is something that Polt can stay calm in but his opponent's might not be as composed. That championship gets some serious credit. So we have already inherently valued that prestige factor by giving credit to the winner, no?
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On March 21 2016 06:00 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2016 05:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 21 2016 00:57 Big J wrote:On March 21 2016 00:45 RKC wrote:
By the way, 'prestige' is simply a way to measure of how seriously players compete in a tournament (prestige here is seen from the perception of players, not viewers - though of course viewer perception can affect player perception).
So you could throw a fun-filled HSC-esque between the top KeSPA players, but it's still not as prestigious as Starleagues.
Ladder is a good example - the best Koreans duke out there on a daily basis, but the rankings and stats don't reflect the true skill and greatness of the players (who may be playing for fun, hiding builds, and saving energy for team-house games which their coaches probably pay more close attention to). One could argue that it's the same situation for both players, so it shouldn't inherently favor anyone. Imo it should be seen somewhat like that: is game played in some Premier leauge/tournament? --> both players will nearly always play the best they can and it doesn't really matter which tournament is "more prestigeous". is the game a showmatch, ladder game or in some other form of lesser importance to the player --> one or both player might not take it too seriously. Winning doesn't tell too much about their ultimate greatness. The basic idea probably is the bigger the potential money you can win, the harder it is to stay calm and focused. Which in itself is one of the most important skills for being a s class player in pretty much every competition you can think of. So i can see where this idea is coming from, but at one point i don't think it makes a lot of difference anymore so i agree with your general concept. Yeah, I thought about this too, but to me that sounds a bit like double counting: It's a prestigeous tournament, which is something that Polt can stay calm in but his opponent's might not be as composed. That championship gets some serious credit. So we have already inherently valued that prestige factor by giving credit to the winner, no?
Sure, i am not talking about giving no/any value to it, but more about the general concept "more money = harder to stay composed = harder to win = more prestige for winning it"
Which is what a lot of people argue here. It makes some sense, but as i said before at one point i doubt the extra money matters all that much in how serious/nervous you are.
And even if it would work like that, the level of competition is simply more important imo. Not giving any credit to the fact that playing live is a lot harder than playing online is kinda weird though, so i disagree with Olli on that (even if we see sick games in these qualifiers and the level of competition is probably harder than at the actual tournament, sc2 is still a competition you usually have to play 'offline' in front of a crowd)
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EPT
