On February 14 2016 08:59 Seeker wrote: Starting from this page on, I will be moderating more harshly toward any mention of MarineKing's name. This thread has NOTHING to do with MarineKing. Do not talk about MarineKing even if you are defending him. Just don't do it. Please no match-fixing accusations on MarineKing or any other player if it has not officially been confirmed.
On February 02 2016 03:45 Shield wrote: Are you guys stupid? Since when does SC2 rely on one person? Fine, Life committed a crime and is probably going to jail. How does that stop you from playing the game? Stop being babies and enjoy the game.
Edit: Let me tell you that crimes happen every day. That's not a reason we should quit A, B or C.
Did you know that professional wrestling used to be an actual bonafide competitive sport in the US?
How do you think it ended up the way it is now? Because match-fixing turned the competitive integrity into a joke and Vince McMahon decided to embrace the show aspect because the sport was beyond rehabilitation.
That's what people are worried about here. It has nothing to do with playing the game or enjoying it, but whether or not people can trust what their watching anymore.
On February 02 2016 03:45 Shield wrote: Are you guys stupid? Since when does SC2 rely on one person? Fine, Life committed a crime and is probably going to jail. How does that stop you from playing the game? Stop being babies and enjoy the game.
Edit: Let me tell you that crimes happen every day. That's not a reason we should quit A, B or C.
because there are literally no one that enjoys watching the game without playing.
this is a lot more specific than jsut a generic "crime". this scandal is taking away all confidence in the legitimacy of the games played. id rather these guys were rob a convenience store, than manipulate games.
ur not seriously downplaying this as some sort of minor mistake that these guys made are u?
On February 02 2016 03:45 Shield wrote: Are you guys stupid? Since when does SC2 rely on one person? Fine, Life committed a crime and is probably going to jail. How does that stop you from playing the game? Stop being babies and enjoy the game.
Edit: Let me tell you that crimes happen every day. That's not a reason we should quit A, B or C.
Did you know that professional wrestling used to be an actual bonafide competitive sport in the US?
How do you think it ended up the way it is now? Because match-fixing turned the competitive integrity into a joke and Vince McMahon decided to embrace the show aspect because the sport was beyond rehabilitation.
That's what people are worried about here. It has nothing to do with playing the game or enjoying it, but whether or not people can trust what their watching anymore.
Of course, they can. Just because it happens once in a while, as long as it's not too frequently and is dealt with police or law, I don't see too much of a problem.
On February 02 2016 03:45 Shield wrote: Are you guys stupid? Since when does SC2 rely on one person? Fine, Life committed a crime and is probably going to jail. How does that stop you from playing the game? Stop being babies and enjoy the game.
Edit: Let me tell you that crimes happen every day. That's not a reason we should quit A, B or C.
because there are literally no one that enjoys watching the game without playing.
this is a lot more specific than jsut a generic "crime". this scandal is taking away all confidence in the legitimacy of the games played. id rather these guys were rob a convenience store, than manipulate games.
ur not seriously downplaying this as some sort of minor mistake that these guys made are u?
I barely watch tournaments these days. I just play the game. I think some people in the community focus too much on drama and not enough on game experience. Let some of job be handled by appropriate authorities such as police and court.
On February 02 2016 03:45 Shield wrote: Are you guys stupid? Since when does SC2 rely on one person? Fine, Life committed a crime and is probably going to jail. How does that stop you from playing the game? Stop being babies and enjoy the game.
Edit: Let me tell you that crimes happen every day. That's not a reason we should quit A, B or C.
Did you know that professional wrestling used to be an actual bonafide competitive sport in the US?
How do you think it ended up the way it is now? Because match-fixing turned the competitive integrity into a joke and Vince McMahon decided to embrace the show aspect because the sport was beyond rehabilitation.
That's what people are worried about here. It has nothing to do with playing the game or enjoying it, but whether or not people can trust what their watching anymore.
I would watch the shit out of every sc2 even if they force the players to act even 50% of what pro wresters do :D Also I want the outfits.
On February 02 2016 03:45 Shield wrote: Are you guys stupid? Since when does SC2 rely on one person? Fine, Life committed a crime and is probably going to jail. How does that stop you from playing the game? Stop being babies and enjoy the game.
Edit: Let me tell you that crimes happen every day. That's not a reason we should quit A, B or C.
Yes, we are all stupid.
Life isn't going to jail (if convicted), none of the others were given jail sentences
On February 02 2016 03:45 Shield wrote: Are you guys stupid? Since when does SC2 rely on one person? Fine, Life committed a crime and is probably going to jail. How does that stop you from playing the game? Stop being babies and enjoy the game.
Edit: Let me tell you that crimes happen every day. That's not a reason we should quit A, B or C.
because there are literally no one that enjoys watching the game without playing.
this is a lot more specific than jsut a generic "crime". this scandal is taking away all confidence in the legitimacy of the games played. id rather these guys were rob a convenience store, than manipulate games.
ur not seriously downplaying this as some sort of minor mistake that these guys made are u?
Silly.
SC2 was always a game who's death was certain, it always had a shelf life. For multiple reasons: Its a game, so inherently it will lose popularity, its a niche genre and so it wont likely hold onto casual players, the non korean community has neither the infrastructure nor the suicidal work ethic of koreans, so long term they cant compete. Without local incentives and local players who are legitimately good, people become bored. Koreans have a horrible pay scale, and lower level players hardly get any money, this is a compounded problem when you consider the sacrifices made by these individuals because of koreas particular cultural and economic conditions. All of this means the scene is not only doomed to go into irreparable decline (and this is before blizzard started ruining the scene with WCS incompetence) it also means its certain that it will be heavily fixed in korea. Absolutely certain. Life didnt kill sc2. SC2 isnt dead yet, but it will die eventually, and it will die to a confluence of variables and people of which Life was an insignificant one person. You cant put on him--or any of the match fixers-- moral culpability for people losing their jobs, etc, as the scene declines into the future. You can only put on them the actual things they did, which was lie and take money.
But it was always going to happen. If life didnt take money, would sc2 really be in any different position? It would be an extremely marginal improvement at best; new players were still not going to come in, and those that did were still going to be paid dirt, which means these scandals were always a given. The match fixing has happened since day one, it just took a while to find culprits and proof. And it will happen in every 'esport' scene in Korea, and continue to happen in every iteration of starcraft. It can at least decline in the future, somewhat, when korean teams realize they have to have a more egalitarian pay scale in order to invest in future players, but until then, bobs your uncle.
Terrible news all around. Even if life is somehow found innocent (very low chance considering 98% conviction rate), his reputation is damaged for the rest of his SCII career. I feel like coaches could do a better job in helping the younger player understand the consequences of such actions.
Also, guys, stop talking about Innovation as if he's been accused of matchfixing. Seeing as the SCII community is already in a terrible position, it'll only make the overall situation worse.
On February 01 2016 04:52 trada wrote: well, honestly something like this was bound to happen.
IF there are "investors" around trying to make money through matchfixing they either go to the players/teams who struggle to make a living (i.e. Prime - low risk, low reward) or they go to players/teams where a lot of people bet and therefore the stakes are higher (high risk, high reward).
I assume there are a lot more players/teams involved into matchfixing, corruption, bribery and hush-money than we know, some are just better at covering their tracks I guess.
I applaud players who immediately report people that approach them with a moneybag in one hand and promises in the other. I think there was a thread on TL a while back about a player that refused to get into matchfixing. Sadly that didnt even get half the attention than actual scandals that are happening lately.
anyway, cheers to everyone who also selected Life for their anti team in FPL.
I believe that was Solar who reported that he was approached a while back.
On February 02 2016 03:45 Shield wrote: Are you guys stupid? Since when does SC2 rely on one person? Fine, Life committed a crime and is probably going to jail. How does that stop you from playing the game? Stop being babies and enjoy the game.
Edit: Let me tell you that crimes happen every day. That's not a reason we should quit A, B or C.
because there are literally no one that enjoys watching the game without playing.
this is a lot more specific than jsut a generic "crime". this scandal is taking away all confidence in the legitimacy of the games played. id rather these guys were rob a convenience store, than manipulate games.
ur not seriously downplaying this as some sort of minor mistake that these guys made are u?
Silly.
SC2 was always a game who's death was certain, it always had a shelf life. For multiple reasons: Its a game, so inherently it will lose popularity, its a niche genre and so it wont likely hold onto casual players, the non korean community has neither the infrastructure nor the suicidal work ethic of koreans, so long term they cant compete. Without local incentives and local players who are legitimately good, people become bored. Koreans have a horrible pay scale, and lower level players hardly get any money, this is a compounded problem when you consider the sacrifices made by these individuals because of koreas particular cultural and economic conditions. All of this means the scene is not only doomed to go into irreparable decline (and this is before blizzard started ruining the scene with WCS incompetence) it also means its certain that it will be heavily fixed in korea. Absolutely certain. Life didnt kill sc2. SC2 isnt dead yet, but it will die eventually, and it will die to a confluence of variables and people of which Life was an insignificant one person. You cant put on him--or any of the match fixers-- moral culpability for people losing their jobs, etc, as the scene declines into the future. You can only put on them the actual things they did, which was lie and take money.
But it was always going to happen. If life didnt take money, would sc2 really be in any different position? It would be an extremely marginal improvement at best; new players were still not going to come in, and those that did were still going to be paid dirt, which means these scandals were always a given. The match fixing has happened since day one, it just took a while to find culprits and proof. And it will happen in every 'esport' scene in Korea, and continue to happen in every iteration of starcraft. It can at least decline in the future, somewhat, when korean teams realize they have to have a more egalitarian pay scale in order to invest in future players, but until then, bobs your uncle.
bet of an existentialist aint ya? bottom line is fixing games is wrong. literally use that example in any major sport and see the reactions. but ur prob still gonna sit there and say "well everyone dies in the end eventually, why does anything matter?"
this does matter and is a big deal whether u want it to be or not. ur not doing anyone favors by saying "match fixing is everywhere guys, its fine". my gripe is not solely on Life was wrong to do what he did (pending), but we wont get to see one of the greatest players of sc2 play again. closest one to bonjwa period.
On February 01 2016 16:20 Rekrul wrote: why scapegoat the famous one and let all the other ones slide
Please don't tell me there is bigger than Life involved.
Do you know for sure and can't tell or do you just go by rumors ? (cause i don't know if you have the connexions as before).
How did you get that out of his statement? If anything, Rekrul is saying that (as far as he knows) no other AAA players are in any way implicated. Hence Life, a famous player, serving as scapegoat for all the not so famous ones.
I was terrified for INno back when Wolf was making it sound like he knew shit was about to go down... I'm actually way, way less worried now.
I wonder what would happen if both players in a game were match fixing for different gambling groups and both were trying to lose. It would be comical if it wasn't so pathetic.
I can guarantee you that for every player caught at this there are 10 more who are getting away with it. If they can get to a player like Life who is at the top tier of the game, no player or match is above suspect.
This revelation will forever change how I look at korean matches now.
On February 02 2016 04:41 ElMeanYo wrote: I wonder what would happen if both players in a game were match fixing for different gambling groups and both were trying to lose. It would be comical if it wasn't so pathetic.
I can guarantee you that for every player caught at this there are 10 more who are getting away with it. If they can get to a player like Life who is at the top tier of the game, no player or match is above suspect.
This revelation will forever change how I look at korean matches now.
Luxury vs Hwasin: when both players were trying to matchfix
Proleague has always been beyond redemption. Although it has its own flavor it is too much vulnerable to cheating in a game like starcraft. If your coach tells you to go Hatch first and the other coach or a broker tells your opponent to go proxy Barracks it is done. The problem is that as a loosing player here, you do not even have an option. you simply have to always obey or you will not get picked up. Add to that the fact that you are not simply on a fixed salary, you are being paid under an incentive based system (if you are picked up, win, picked up as an ace, etc..). Even if you suspect your coach or someone, you have to shut up, since staying out means goodbye as changing teams is not allowed.
I can understand underage programmers playing as professionals and being subject to the law as adults. I would say it is fine in a vulnerable complicated 1v1 game in individual leagues (GSL, WCS, etc) where they at least have AUTONOMY. However when they are mostly used as AIs where they MUST follow a fixed pre-decided build and where they could be subject to adults manipulation is certainly NOT OK for me, especially when coaches themselves where proven to be cheating (the PRIME incident).
My opinion is that Life should be treated as an Adult regarding the alleged Accusations. But someone should also be suing Kespa into bankruptcy if the cheating occurred within Proleague, since he was a minor subjected to this.
On February 02 2016 04:41 ElMeanYo wrote: I wonder what would happen if both players in a game were match fixing for different gambling groups and both were trying to lose. It would be comical if it wasn't so pathetic.
I can guarantee you that for every player caught at this there are 10 more who are getting away with it. If they can get to a player like Life who is at the top tier of the game, no player or match is above suspect.
This revelation will forever change how I look at korean matches now.
It actually did happen back in BW scandal. Think it was a ZvZ too with mutas.
EDIT: looks like someone already linked the match for you.
On February 01 2016 16:20 Rekrul wrote: why scapegoat the famous one and let all the other ones slide
Please don't tell me there is bigger than Life involved.
Do you know for sure and can't tell or do you just go by rumors ? (cause i don't know if you have the connexions as before).
How did you get that out of his statement? If anything, Rekrul is saying that (as far as he knows) no other AAA players are in any way implicated. Hence Life, a famous player, serving as scapegoat for all the not so famous ones.
I was terrified for INno back when Wolf was making it sound like he knew shit was about to go down... I'm actually way, way less worried now.
What was the incidence with Wolf? I hear people mentioning him, what happened?
On February 02 2016 04:48 MRSA_SC2 wrote: Proleague has always been beyond redemption. Although it has its own flavor it is too much vulnerable to cheating in a game like starcraft. If your coach tells you to go Hatch first and the other coach or a broker tells your opponent to go proxy Barracks it is done. The problem is that as a loosing player here, you do not even have an option. you simply have to always obey or you will not get picked up. Add to that the fact that you are not simply on a fixed salary, you are being paid under an incentive based system (if you are picked up, win, picked up as an ace, etc..). Even if you suspect your coach or someone, you have to shut up, since staying out means goodbye as changing teams is not allowed.
I can understand underage programmers playing as professionals and being subject to the law as adults. I would say it is fine in a vulnerable complicated 1v1 game in individual leagues (GSL, WCS, etc) where they at least have AUTONOMY. However when they are mostly used as AIs where they MUST follow a fixed pre-decided build and where they could be subject to adults manipulation is certainly NOT OK for me, especially when coaches themselves where proven to be cheating (the PRIME incident).
My opinion is that Life should be treated as an Adult regarding the alleged Accusations. But someone should also be suing Kespa into bankruptcy if the cheating occurred within Proleague, since he was a minor subjected to this.
Where is your information coming from? It sounds like you're implicating numerous coaches, which, while entirely within the realm of possibility, is still quite a claim at this point.
On February 01 2016 16:20 Rekrul wrote: why scapegoat the famous one and let all the other ones slide
Please don't tell me there is bigger than Life involved.
Do you know for sure and can't tell or do you just go by rumors ? (cause i don't know if you have the connexions as before).
How did you get that out of his statement? If anything, Rekrul is saying that (as far as he knows) no other AAA players are in any way implicated. Hence Life, a famous player, serving as scapegoat for all the not so famous ones.
I was terrified for INno back when Wolf was making it sound like he knew shit was about to go down... I'm actually way, way less worried now.
What was the incidence with Wolf? I hear people mentioning him, what happened?
Right after Yoda and B4 were implicated, Wolf tweeted something like "get ready guys hard times are ahead for SC2 fans." Basically it sounded like he knew more people were implicated, everybody started losing their minds, but as we all know no one was until Life right now. And later that day Wolf did a podcast where he said he accidentally made it seem like he knew things he didn't and apologized.
It's possible that he did know about Life (and others) way back then but had to cover his ass once he realized that was privileged information.
if somehow Life finds a way, and we later find out that he is not guilty of anything and was only there to finger the real perpetrators in a line up, i would be soooooooooo happy.
On February 01 2016 16:20 Rekrul wrote: why scapegoat the famous one and let all the other ones slide
Please don't tell me there is bigger than Life involved.
Do you know for sure and can't tell or do you just go by rumors ? (cause i don't know if you have the connexions as before).
How did you get that out of his statement? If anything, Rekrul is saying that (as far as he knows) no other AAA players are in any way implicated. Hence Life, a famous player, serving as scapegoat for all the not so famous ones.
I was terrified for INno back when Wolf was making it sound like he knew shit was about to go down... I'm actually way, way less worried now.
What was the incidence with Wolf? I hear people mentioning him, what happened?
On February 01 2016 16:20 Rekrul wrote: why scapegoat the famous one and let all the other ones slide
Please don't tell me there is bigger than Life involved.
Do you know for sure and can't tell or do you just go by rumors ? (cause i don't know if you have the connexions as before).
How did you get that out of his statement? If anything, Rekrul is saying that (as far as he knows) no other AAA players are in any way implicated. Hence Life, a famous player, serving as scapegoat for all the not so famous ones.
I was terrified for INno back when Wolf was making it sound like he knew shit was about to go down... I'm actually way, way less worried now.
What was the incidence with Wolf? I hear people mentioning him, what happened?
Right after Yoda and B4 were implicated, Wolf tweeted something like "get ready guys hard times are ahead for SC2 fans." Basically it sounded like he knew more people were implicated, everybody started losing their minds, but as we all know no one was until Life right now. And later that day Wolf did a podcast where he said he accidentally made it seem like he knew things he didn't.
Thanks. And I gather he mentioned innovation, then? Did he say anything about his sources, and did he mention life?
EPT
