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On January 27 2016 01:08 ProtossMasterRace wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2016 00:58 rockslave wrote:On January 26 2016 22:15 ProtossMasterRace wrote:On January 26 2016 21:50 rockslave wrote:
Best patch ever!
PvT needed it a lot, just look at TY x Patience. The lesser player wins if and only if he adept rushes.
PvZ will be hard indeed, but other solutions are needed. PO is boring. The game is not supposed to symmetric. Protoss should be stronger than zerg on less bases, but have trouble expanding as much. Perhaps roach/ravager should be nerfed, not protoss buffed. TY won that game and he is the terran...don't know what you are talking about and Patience is the rank 1 on Korean GM ladder so he should be a decent enough player. Watch the whole series. In some games, Patience goes for Adept + Warp prism, in others he doesn't. When he does, you can notice that TY does everything right and even then he is behind. When Patience goes for other builds, TY outplays him easily. That only proves that the only good unit protoss has left are the adepts and now that is taken away. RIP Starcraft, it will be really boring with only 2 races.
That's really short term thinking. If this patch didn't come along, we would have 2 base adept to the end of times. This patch comes, possibly Protoss becomes too weak, other changes come in the future.
Same thing for PO, which is way worse a nerf. Maybe gateway units will get buffed, maybe build times for tech will be shortened... It opens possibilities.
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Well, how nice that the remaining Code A matches will have different balance. I hope they play on prepatch or else it'll be unfair for both the protosses and the terrans.
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so Adepts get a 4% nerf?
i guess the 1 point off means it requires 3 shots to kill an SCV instead of 2?
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On January 27 2016 01:46 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
so Adepts get a 4% nerf?
i guess the 1 point off means it requires 3 shots to kill an SCV instead of 2?
Both SCV and Marines. There is some gif visualising these changes.
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On January 27 2016 01:46 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
so Adepts get a 4% nerf?
i guess the 1 point off means it requires 3 shots to kill an SCV instead of 2?
Yes they'll 3 shot scvs and marines, this means it is much more than %4, effectively.
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On January 27 2016 01:50 Laserist wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2016 01:46 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
so Adepts get a 4% nerf?
i guess the 1 point off means it requires 3 shots to kill an SCV instead of 2? Yes they'll 3 shot scvs and marines, this means it is much more than %4, effectively.
But why not nerf them to 10+9? Then they would 3 shot Probes and Drones, too, without much influence to other scenarios.
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On January 27 2016 02:01 Sholip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2016 01:50 Laserist wrote:On January 27 2016 01:46 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
so Adepts get a 4% nerf?
i guess the 1 point off means it requires 3 shots to kill an SCV instead of 2? Yes they'll 3 shot scvs and marines, this means it is much more than %4, effectively. But why not nerf them to 10+9? Then they would 3 shot Probes and Drones, too, without much influence to other scenarios.
And what about Hydras?
After the patch:
80hp : 22dmg = 4 hits
With 10 + 9:
80hp : 19dmg = 5 hits
This is kind of a big deal. Instead of 10 you would have to have 12.5 (or 13, since you can't make half a unit) Adepts to beat the same number of Hydras.
One other important interaction could be with the Hellbats.
After patch:
135hp : 22dmg = 7 hits
With 10 + 9:
135hp : 19dmg = 8 hits
This could become important, should mech get buffed.
EDIT:
Interaction with Zealots and Chargelots:
After patch: 8 hits
With 10 + 9: 9 hits
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On January 27 2016 02:01 Sholip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2016 01:50 Laserist wrote:On January 27 2016 01:46 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
so Adepts get a 4% nerf?
i guess the 1 point off means it requires 3 shots to kill an SCV instead of 2? Yes they'll 3 shot scvs and marines, this means it is much more than %4, effectively. But why not nerf them to 10+9? Then they would 3 shot Probes and Drones, too, without much influence to other scenarios.
Well for one it does influence other scenarios, like versus hydralisks. And in reality it is not as simple as "unit needs X shots to kill Y". Compositions consist of various units, when you change the adept you also change X adept + Y stalker shot relations. Also units are very often not at full health and regenerating abilities like medivacs or queens mess up how many shots you need in a combat further.
-4 damage would surely be quite a nerf in many situations, even if the pure adept shotrelations havent changed.
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On January 27 2016 02:14 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2016 02:01 Sholip wrote:On January 27 2016 01:50 Laserist wrote:On January 27 2016 01:46 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
so Adepts get a 4% nerf?
i guess the 1 point off means it requires 3 shots to kill an SCV instead of 2? Yes they'll 3 shot scvs and marines, this means it is much more than %4, effectively. But why not nerf them to 10+9? Then they would 3 shot Probes and Drones, too, without much influence to other scenarios. Well for one it does influence other scenarios, like versus hydralisks. And in reality it is not as simple as "unit needs X shots to kill Y". Compositions consist of various units, when you change the adept you also change X adept + Y stalker shot relations. Also units are very often not at full health and regenerating abilities like medivacs or queens mess up how many shots you need in a combat further. -4 damage would surely be quite a nerf in many situations, even if the pure adept shotrelations havent changed.
I actually had Hydras in mind, too, and of course you are right about compositions. but it still feels pretty bad how a couple of Adepts shred entire Drone lines (and, I assume, Probes as well, after the PO nerf). It may be something worth considering, to make games less volatile.
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On January 27 2016 01:42 Wintex wrote:
Well, how nice that the remaining Code A matches will have different balance. I hope they play on prepatch or else it'll be unfair for both the protosses and the terrans.
There will always be some unfairness to patches, by that logic we should wait until GSL Code S concludes...
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On January 27 2016 02:21 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2016 01:42 Wintex wrote:
Well, how nice that the remaining Code A matches will have different balance. I hope they play on prepatch or else it'll be unfair for both the protosses and the terrans. There will always be some unfairness to patches, by that logic we should wait until GSL Code S concludes...
If the patch hits on Jan 28 as originally announced, some players will have 1 day of practice with the new balance before a tournament match they already spent weeks practicing for on a different patch. It's certainly not the most opportune timing they're choosing here. Keep in mind, Code A finishes next week.
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On January 27 2016 02:17 Sholip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2016 02:14 Big J wrote:On January 27 2016 02:01 Sholip wrote:On January 27 2016 01:50 Laserist wrote:On January 27 2016 01:46 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
so Adepts get a 4% nerf?
i guess the 1 point off means it requires 3 shots to kill an SCV instead of 2? Yes they'll 3 shot scvs and marines, this means it is much more than %4, effectively. But why not nerf them to 10+9? Then they would 3 shot Probes and Drones, too, without much influence to other scenarios. Well for one it does influence other scenarios, like versus hydralisks. And in reality it is not as simple as "unit needs X shots to kill Y". Compositions consist of various units, when you change the adept you also change X adept + Y stalker shot relations. Also units are very often not at full health and regenerating abilities like medivacs or queens mess up how many shots you need in a combat further. -4 damage would surely be quite a nerf in many situations, even if the pure adept shotrelations havent changed. I actually had Hydras in mind, too, and of course you are right about compositions. but it still feels pretty bad how a couple of Adepts shred entire Drone lines (and, I assume, Probes as well, after the PO nerf). It may be something worth considering, to make games less volatile.
No, Adepts are supposed to do that and should remain potent harass tools. Zergs have Lings and Mutas, which are excellent at eco harass. Being T1, Lings are readily available. Terrans have a number of options: Marines, WMs, Hellions, which can all be dropped with a medivac and do a lot of eco damage. being T1, Marines are readily available.
Protoss has always needed a harass tool, which is not too high up the tech tree. And Adepts are just that. Nerfing them to the ground will do nothing, but make the Protoss play more campy and deathbally like in WoL and HotS, in other words: much worse.
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On January 26 2016 23:43 NonY wrote:
This PO change will require protoss to change a lot of builds. Pressure and harass builds were already pretty good at baiting out PO's, retreating, and then returning. Now that'll be easier.
The best bet was actually to kill key pylons, rather than baiting overcharges. At 25 energy, baiting had a very small impact. Look how early pressure from Zerg and Terran handled the situation: Terrans used cyclones to kill off the MSC or key pylons and Zerg used Ravagers. These units and strategies wouldn't be necessary if baiting was very effective early on.
On January 26 2016 23:43 NonY wrote:
In fact there will be a lot of situations where PO simply can't defend anymore. So many builds depend on having 2 pylons around a Nexus and your MSC there to double PO, which with 100 energy used to provide 30 seconds of protection and now provides only 20. But more importantly when the MSC has just been built and doesn't have 100 energy yet, the MSC can't defend a base against harass anymore for any amount of time. It can protect half the mineral line and one assimilator. In big battles against PO, killing the pylons will be a lot more effective now. And since the range on PO is not very big, it's not easy for protoss to keep the overcharged pylon involved in the fight while also protecting it.
Should the MSC really be able to defend so effectively by itself? Is that the intent behind the design? It's already incredibly cost- and supply-effective compared to anything Terran or Zerg can put out for early defense and it will remain that way. The fact that it became standard to take a fast third in addition to performing effective harass simultaneously is a testament to how powerful it really was. This was a really clear issue in PvT, and we've seen GSL matches where it didn't even matter if the Terran player effectively defended the harass; the Protoss player was still ahead economically, which is a peculiar result for an early harass build.
It's just bad design overall. If Protoss needs a buff elsewhere to compensate,they should absolutely get it.
On January 26 2016 23:43 NonY wrote:
Look for opponents of protoss to do more harass, pressure and timing attacks. Look for protoss to invest more in army earlier in the game. And then eventually look for opponents of protoss to get greedy, relying on protoss scared of harass and timing attacks to play defensively.
This is a good thing. Particularly in PvT, Protoss players had incredible flexibility (harass options and low-risk greedy plays), while Terrans were in this exact doom-and-gloom situation you described here. PO is the primary reason why Terrans, even at GSL level, struggled to punish a Protoss player that invested in failed harass and a fast third. If it turns out that early game becomes too favorable for Terran, Protoss should get buffed. Period. But it sure as hell shouldn't be any more silly gimmicks like PO.
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On January 26 2016 18:29 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 14:20 blade55555 wrote:On January 26 2016 14:16 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 26 2016 14:13 DinoMight wrote:
As a Protoss player I'm okay with these changes...
... I'm just going to play Dota 2 until they realize they need to buff our mid/late-game to compensate. League of Legends for me. They took the race that was winning less than 50% in both non-mirrors and nerfed them without giving any compensatory buffs. http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/Ptitdrogo winning Dreamhack was like when Fruitdealer won the first GSL. Incredible win against a race that had nearly a 60% winrate versus his race. Er PvT is Protoss favored right now lol. Protoss has a winning %. Btw PvZ isn't in bad shape for toss either. If foreign protosses would realize how strong Phoenix into Chargelot/archon/immortal is, they would realize that PvZ isn't bad at all. But no let's just bitch about balance because I don't want to try something really strong. That is before this patch. I will say with this patch Protoss will probably need buffed to compensate somewhere. Drogo has been using Chargelot/archon/immortal since HSC (though without the double stargate opening he'd just kill the zerg before muta's in that tournament). And at DH we saw a lot of Phoenix into Charlot/archon/immortal/HT.
And guess who won DH? Drogo
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On January 27 2016 02:25 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2016 02:21 KeksX wrote:On January 27 2016 01:42 Wintex wrote:
Well, how nice that the remaining Code A matches will have different balance. I hope they play on prepatch or else it'll be unfair for both the protosses and the terrans. There will always be some unfairness to patches, by that logic we should wait until GSL Code S concludes... If the patch hits on Jan 28 as originally announced, some players will have 1 day of practice with the new balance before a tournament match they already spent weeks practicing for on a different patch. It's certainly not the most opportune timing they're choosing here. Keep in mind, Code A finishes next week.
How do we explain that to INnoVation, who's still got a TvP coming up?
Sorry INno, you have to die to Adepts and miss out on a season of premiers because otherwise it won't be fair to Stork?
I don't think INno will find that extremely fair. And he's the one who actually has a chance of winning a Korean premier, or attending Blizzcon, given remotely good balance.
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Protoss will get super boring and passive again.
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On January 26 2016 22:15 ProtossMasterRace wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 21:50 rockslave wrote:
Best patch ever!
PvT needed it a lot, just look at TY x Patience. The lesser player wins if and only if he adept rushes.
PvZ will be hard indeed, but other solutions are needed. PO is boring. The game is not supposed to symmetric. Protoss should be stronger than zerg on less bases, but have trouble expanding as much. Perhaps roach/ravager should be nerfed, not protoss buffed. TY won that game and he is the terran...don't know what you are talking about and Patience is the rank 1 on Korean GM ladder so he should be a decent enough player.
TY outplayed patience, and patience never went for tempests on the last game (literally a throw). If patience just got 4-6 tempests, TY could have outplayed Patience totally and would have still lost. Guess how patience went rank 1 KR GM? Adept all ins. He said it himself
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On January 27 2016 02:37 p68 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 23:43 NonY wrote:
This PO change will require protoss to change a lot of builds. Pressure and harass builds were already pretty good at baiting out PO's, retreating, and then returning. Now that'll be easier. If it turns out that early game becomes too favorable for Terran, Protoss should get buffed. Period. But it sure as hell shouldn't be any more silly gimmicks like PO.
I agree with everything you said, BUT: do you think that that kind of redesign is realistic at this point? Blizzard didn't try anything along these lines in the beta, which is when they should have experimented with buffing gateway units and making WG a twilight tech upgrade and similar community proposals. I fear that now it's too late. Therefore the best you can expect is buffs along the lines of faster WG research, to bring lost potency to P early game, faster twilight upgrades or reduced build speeds for critical units, like Immortals, Phoenix, etc.
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On January 27 2016 02:27 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2016 02:17 Sholip wrote:On January 27 2016 02:14 Big J wrote:On January 27 2016 02:01 Sholip wrote:On January 27 2016 01:50 Laserist wrote:On January 27 2016 01:46 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
so Adepts get a 4% nerf?
i guess the 1 point off means it requires 3 shots to kill an SCV instead of 2? Yes they'll 3 shot scvs and marines, this means it is much more than %4, effectively. But why not nerf them to 10+9? Then they would 3 shot Probes and Drones, too, without much influence to other scenarios. Well for one it does influence other scenarios, like versus hydralisks. And in reality it is not as simple as "unit needs X shots to kill Y". Compositions consist of various units, when you change the adept you also change X adept + Y stalker shot relations. Also units are very often not at full health and regenerating abilities like medivacs or queens mess up how many shots you need in a combat further. -4 damage would surely be quite a nerf in many situations, even if the pure adept shotrelations havent changed. I actually had Hydras in mind, too, and of course you are right about compositions. but it still feels pretty bad how a couple of Adepts shred entire Drone lines (and, I assume, Probes as well, after the PO nerf). It may be something worth considering, to make games less volatile. No, Adepts are supposed to do that and should remain potent harass tools. Zergs have Lings and Mutas, which are excellent at eco harass. Being T1, Lings are readily available. Terrans have a number of options: Marines, WMs, Hellions, which can all be dropped with a medivac and do a lot of eco damage. being T1, Marines are readily available. Protoss has always needed a harass tool, which is not too high up the tech tree. And Adepts are just that. Nerfing them to the ground will do nothing, but make the Protoss play more campy and deathbally like in WoL and HotS, in other words: much worse.
I don't think, actually, that Protoss is in need of additional harass tools. Oracle, DT and Warp Prism suffice, I think, even if they are not T1 units, as you said as well. But note that Medivacs, which make Terran's harasses possible, aren't T1, either.
I think the Adept was designed to be a stable Gateway unit that is actually reliable in direct combat, as opposed to Stalkers and, to some extent, Zealots. I reacall DK saying this very thing (at least I think). That's why it got a relatively large HP and decent damage output. Then, of course, the Shade was added, because DK has some weird harass-fetish, apparently, but I don't think that it would have been the primary focus.
Moreover, if Adepts are to remain potent harass tools, then the -1 dmg is already a pretty big blow to them, isn't it?
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On January 27 2016 02:45 Sholip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2016 02:27 CheddarToss wrote:On January 27 2016 02:17 Sholip wrote:On January 27 2016 02:14 Big J wrote:On January 27 2016 02:01 Sholip wrote:On January 27 2016 01:50 Laserist wrote:On January 27 2016 01:46 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
so Adepts get a 4% nerf?
i guess the 1 point off means it requires 3 shots to kill an SCV instead of 2? Yes they'll 3 shot scvs and marines, this means it is much more than %4, effectively. But why not nerf them to 10+9? Then they would 3 shot Probes and Drones, too, without much influence to other scenarios. Well for one it does influence other scenarios, like versus hydralisks. And in reality it is not as simple as "unit needs X shots to kill Y". Compositions consist of various units, when you change the adept you also change X adept + Y stalker shot relations. Also units are very often not at full health and regenerating abilities like medivacs or queens mess up how many shots you need in a combat further. -4 damage would surely be quite a nerf in many situations, even if the pure adept shotrelations havent changed. I actually had Hydras in mind, too, and of course you are right about compositions. but it still feels pretty bad how a couple of Adepts shred entire Drone lines (and, I assume, Probes as well, after the PO nerf). It may be something worth considering, to make games less volatile. No, Adepts are supposed to do that and should remain potent harass tools. Zergs have Lings and Mutas, which are excellent at eco harass. Being T1, Lings are readily available. Terrans have a number of options: Marines, WMs, Hellions, which can all be dropped with a medivac and do a lot of eco damage. being T1, Marines are readily available. Protoss has always needed a harass tool, which is not too high up the tech tree. And Adepts are just that. Nerfing them to the ground will do nothing, but make the Protoss play more campy and deathbally like in WoL and HotS, in other words: much worse. I don't think, actually, that Protoss is in need of additional harass tools. Oracle, DT and Warp Prism suffice, I think, even if they are not T1 units, as you said as well. But note that Medivacs, which make Terran's harasses possible, aren't T1, either. I think the Adept was designed to be a stable Gateway unit that is actually reliable in direct combat, as opposed to Stalkers and, to some extent, Zealots. I reacall DK saying this very thing (at least I think). That's why it got a relatively large HP and decent damage output. Then, of course, the Shade was added, because DK has some weird harass-fetish, apparently, but I don't think that it would have been the primary focus. Moreover, if Adepts are to remain potent harass tools, then the -1 dmg is already a pretty big blow to them, isn't it?
Medivacs are not T1, but they are not a unit you get solely for the purpose of harassing. You get them either way, because they make your army stronger in direct engagements. Now compare that to the Oracle, DT or WP. You don't get any of these units as a Protoss if you don't plan to harass your opponent, because for the same amount of resources you can get more of other units, which are actually useful in large battles.
A stable unit is a unit that is good at straight up engagements and harass. Zealots, Stalkers and Sentries are useful in straight up engagements, but terrible at harass. At least compared to Speedlings and Marines.
The -1 dmg is a big blow, but it is obvious that Terran is weak at that timing (pre combat shield). So it's either that nerf or the armored flag, which would render Adepts useless in PvT.
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EPT
