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On January 26 2016 22:02 Nebuchad wrote:
Don't go play LoL or whatever... The balance won't be changed in two months, you should try and figure out how to win under the new circumstances (it's kind of the point of the game really).
I see a better solution. We should stick to a patch for one year. Maps change the circumstances anyway.
You feel better if you win the whole tournament because because of "better" maps than balance patches.
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Russian Federation400 Posts
Adept
Damage decreased from 10 (+13 light) to 10 (+12 light)
what's -1 light going to change? Not 2 shooting workers anymore?
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List of things community/blizz should keep an eye on for immediate future patch:
-ravager/roach zvt/zvp: it's the same thing as mass adepts...
-parasitic bomb stacking
-mech viability in general two things
-siege tank buff + tankivac removed
-ANTI-AIR buffed aka thor/cyclone versus air units
-re-combine mech upgrades? ???? Helps mech again...and late game T in general (bio uses air too)
-tone down all air units of all 3 races: brood/carrier/tempest/liberator/viper
-tone up anti-air for Zerg hydralisk / Terran mech
-invincible nydus worm still is in this game over 7+ months now?
In regards to this patch they announce...bout time game is patched it's almost been 80 days. My thoughts:
-adepts will still be massed even post-patch people will realize -1 to adept damage doesn't mean jack. It's the shade ability that's pretty ridiculous + warp prisms. I would rather they have made it so every time adepts shade it 100% drains all their shields so there is a risk/reward/cost associated with it instead of it just being free.
-spore crawler - uh not a big deal, basically pointless won't change much except for the first 10 mutas in a game will be harder to hold off. After that if you're going mass muta zvz...if you have 30 muta you're going to kill the buildings regardless. Pointless to nerf/buff spores imo blizz should focus elsewhere
-photon overcharge nerf: This being 50 energy...you still have 4 of them at full energy instead of 8...and they are actually BUFFED in damage...uh...yeah no. Just gut this thing, it's an idiotic game mechanic that is handicapping Protoss because the entire race is completely reliant on this bullshit game mechanic that is worse (IF PEOPLE CAN BELIEVE THAT) than the nexus overcharge.
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On January 26 2016 21:29 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 21:28 deacon.frost wrote:On January 26 2016 21:23 Mozdk wrote:On January 26 2016 20:56 ProtossMasterRace wrote:On January 26 2016 20:38 Mozdk wrote:On January 26 2016 19:25 ProtossMasterRace wrote:On January 26 2016 19:22 ETisME wrote:
These are big nerf to protoss, surprised nothing is buff to compensate other than the damage.
Protoss has to reconfigure their builds with this nerf Protoss will have around 30-40% winrate against terran and probably single digit against zerg. The glory days of starcraft are over. 30-40% is really yelling "worst update ever". It will definately not be that bad. No one will take you seriously when you are claiming things the whole scene knows not to be true. From bronze to GM. PvZ is already at 41% and there is a toss nerf so it can only go lower. Yes it can. But claiming single digits is just moronic. And alligulac balance is not the end all stats of truth. Just so you know. We need the game to be balance at the top level. Not in gold league. It takes only professional games, isn't it? The games can be of vastly different quality. It includes games from actual pro level players against amateurs and semi-pros aswell, which screws up all the numbers for things like qualifiers and even Dreamhacks.
No one is claiming that Aligulac numbers are the end all and be all of balance, and that the game will only be balanced if Aligulac reports 50%. It may very well be balanced with numbers that are slightly off of that, but to claim that PvZ winrates went down 5% right when pro's switched to playing LotV is because of a quirk of the relative quality of the players, which somehow never happened to such an extent ever before in the history of SC2 PvZ, and which also just happened to stay screwed up for several months strains credibility.
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On January 26 2016 22:26 RandomPlayer wrote:
Adept
Damage decreased from 10 (+13 light) to 10 (+12 light)
what's -1 light going to change? Not 2 shooting workers anymore?
2 shots deal 44 damage then without +1, meaning SCVs and marines (without combat shields) take an additional shot to kill. It's a change that affects only TvP.
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I don't think this patch will "ruin" the Protoss race, which many are afraid of. I think a PO nerf was very necessary, since it was the root of most of Protoss' perceived imbalance, rather than the Adept itself. With PO, Protoss could speed up their ecomony and quickly tech up at the same time, surviving the early game without making any army unit, basically. I'm not sure about the severity of the PO nerf, though, maybe it will actually be a bit too much.
About the Adepts. Well, that -1 dmg is important so long as Protoss does not have +1 attacks. Also, as others said, the main problem with Adepts in my opinion is the shade ability. Either it should have a much longer cooldown (like twice or thrice as long) or it should not be cancellable, or both. Because now, the shade basically requires the opponent to have twice as many units as needed to fend off the Adepts quickly enough, distributed between the place where the Adept is, and where the shade will (might) finish.
Also, the patch does not solve the case of Adept harass against Probes and Drones especially. (As one redditor jokingly put, "PO can't be nerfed, because then Protoss could not defend Adept drops." You may laugh at the absurdity of such a statement, but I wonder how true this may prove.)
At this point, I think it would be better to decrease the Adept damage to 10+9 against light. That would cause the Adept to three-shot all workers, while only slightly nerfing pure Adept armies against Hydras (5 shots instead of 4). True, this way Adepts could not two-shot Marines and SCVs with one upgrade advantage, but that does not really happen with 10+12, either, once Terran has Combat Shields. As for SCVs, I would prefer them not dying to two shots at any upgrade standing.
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On January 26 2016 22:26 RandomPlayer wrote:
Adept
Damage decreased from 10 (+13 light) to 10 (+12 light)
what's -1 light going to change? Not 2 shooting workers anymore?
It's more impactful as you might suspect: http://imgur.com/a/4zLw9
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I don't know how people can say the PO nerf might be too much. If I read those notes correctly it will actually last 5 seconds longer and do higher DPS. You just have to use them more sparingly due to higher energy cost (i.e. not to snipe an overlord or a scouting SCV)
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On January 26 2016 14:59 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 14:55 Danglars wrote:
I think the jury's still out on PvZ. Calling it the 'worst place it has ever been in' is hilariously myopic (and lends terrific aid to the calls that this is all just Protoss tears). And PvT T-favored? Dangerously close to a troll post or flame-bait. I didn't create the statistics that I base my opinion on. What is your opinion based on? Try to match up your perception with reality instead of listening to the loudest whining voices. There is no disagreeing that according to the winrates, PvZ is in the worst place it has ever been in. The win rate speaks for itself, it has never been this bad. You may argue that we should consider other things, but you can't deny that. It is like saying grass isn't green. Facts are facts: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/
That's still from December.
Look at this for more recent stats:
http://aligulac.com/periods/latest/
PvT is 54.22%
PvZ is 45.74% (inverse: ZvP is 54.26%)
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On January 26 2016 22:38 p68 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 14:59 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 26 2016 14:55 Danglars wrote:
I think the jury's still out on PvZ. Calling it the 'worst place it has ever been in' is hilariously myopic (and lends terrific aid to the calls that this is all just Protoss tears). And PvT T-favored? Dangerously close to a troll post or flame-bait. I didn't create the statistics that I base my opinion on. What is your opinion based on? Try to match up your perception with reality instead of listening to the loudest whining voices. There is no disagreeing that according to the winrates, PvZ is in the worst place it has ever been in. The win rate speaks for itself, it has never been this bad. You may argue that we should consider other things, but you can't deny that. It is like saying grass isn't green. Facts are facts: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ That's still from December. Look at this for more recent stats: http://aligulac.com/periods/latest/PvT is 54.22% PvZ is 45.74% (inverse: ZvP is 54.26%)
That's not "this month", that's the period that started 4 days ago.
I do believe PvT will be higher this month though.
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On January 26 2016 21:23 Mozdk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 20:56 ProtossMasterRace wrote:On January 26 2016 20:38 Mozdk wrote:On January 26 2016 19:25 ProtossMasterRace wrote:On January 26 2016 19:22 ETisME wrote:
These are big nerf to protoss, surprised nothing is buff to compensate other than the damage.
Protoss has to reconfigure their builds with this nerf Protoss will have around 30-40% winrate against terran and probably single digit against zerg. The glory days of starcraft are over. 30-40% is really yelling "worst update ever". It will definately not be that bad. No one will take you seriously when you are claiming things the whole scene knows not to be true. From bronze to GM. PvZ is already at 41% and there is a toss nerf so it can only go lower. Yes it can. But claiming single digits is just moronic. And alligulac balance is not the end all stats of truth. Just so you know. We need the game to be balance at the top level. Not in gold league.
Top level meaning Korea or the West? I already saw someone citing a premier tournament win by protoss, meaning Bly losing to Drogo.
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I expect PvT to be a lot Terran favored now that P can't take a 3rd behind 2 pylons and 1 adept.
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I wish they kept parasitic bomb really op it made going air really fragile, that's how it should be.
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On January 26 2016 22:44 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 22:38 p68 wrote:On January 26 2016 14:59 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 26 2016 14:55 Danglars wrote:
I think the jury's still out on PvZ. Calling it the 'worst place it has ever been in' is hilariously myopic (and lends terrific aid to the calls that this is all just Protoss tears). And PvT T-favored? Dangerously close to a troll post or flame-bait. I didn't create the statistics that I base my opinion on. What is your opinion based on? Try to match up your perception with reality instead of listening to the loudest whining voices. There is no disagreeing that according to the winrates, PvZ is in the worst place it has ever been in. The win rate speaks for itself, it has never been this bad. You may argue that we should consider other things, but you can't deny that. It is like saying grass isn't green. Facts are facts: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ That's still from December. Look at this for more recent stats: http://aligulac.com/periods/latest/PvT is 54.22% PvZ is 45.74% (inverse: ZvP is 54.26%) That's not "this month", that's the period that started 4 days ago. I do believe PvT will be higher this month though.
You're right, let's list more periods:
153 (24DEC-06JAN):
PvT: 45%
PvZ: 43.17%
154 (07JAN-20JAN):
PvT: 52.87%
PvZ: 43.47%
155 (21JAN-PRESENT):
PvT is 54.22%
PvZ is 45.74% (inverse: ZvP is 54.26%)
PvT completely flipped since the beginning of January, which is what people posting the aligulac balance report need to realize. There's no evidence that it's Terran favored, at the very least, so that myth needs to die.
PvZ still looks Zerg favored, but is trending towards improvement. I don't believe the adept nerf will affect the matchup, but pylon overcharge nerf certainly will.
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Protoss players leaving to play Mobas because their race requires skill now, just as everyone predicted.
User was warned for this post
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aah protoss tears..
wait, i got this:
'let the meta settle guys'
'wait how it plays out'
'[insert winrates of random tourney]'
PvT was disgusting. i know it, you know it. Blizzard knows it. at fucking last.
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On January 26 2016 22:36 Laurens wrote:
I don't know how people can say the PO nerf might be too much. If I read those notes correctly it will actually last 5 seconds longer and do higher DPS. You just have to use them more sparingly due to higher energy cost (i.e. not to snipe an overlord or a scouting SCV)
Because you can just run to a different area. The overcharge nerf is a bigger deal than the adept nerf. I think the overcharge nerf is too big. Overcharges were too important vs zerg. Being able to overcharge one pylon won't suffice. Someone pointed out ling drops and that really will be a serious problem. And what about liberators? Or medivac drops? Having many overcharges was crucial. I am just saying, I think this is a huge nerf. I don't even understand the point of the nerf anyways. Can someone explain what they said the point of the nerf was? Terran already has 2 units that can take out pylons from out of range and zerg has a unit too(that's available at t1).
People talk about warp prism harass but the harass from the other races is extremely strong as well.. and protoss has less defensive capability than terran and move a million times slower than zerg. I think phoenixes are going to be even more popular than they were before now lol. And the oracle stasis things.
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On January 26 2016 18:29 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 18:25 ProtossMasterRace wrote:On January 26 2016 18:21 Laurens wrote:On January 26 2016 18:09 ProtossMasterRace wrote:On January 26 2016 17:54 Jj_82 wrote:On January 26 2016 12:36 Mozdk wrote:I don't see P doing a good job defending early on, when they didn't add additional range to this. I don't see why P should not build an army like everyone else early on, or get the forge for cannons. Having such an early flyer that offers offensive vision AND shooting pylons allows for being very greedy. Unlike any other race. I never understood that. Zerg has queens and can build spores and spines just by building a spawning pool. Terran t1 units are a lot stronger so they are safe early on with maybe a bunker at the front. lol which terran units are we talking about here? It's like the -1 damage has suddenly made adepts bad vs marines or what? Cannons are so much better than bunkers too. Use them. Yes, yes it has. Marines that are t1 cheap units will trade cost efficiently against t1.5 adepts that are specifically anti light unit. You need a forge to build cannons, you only need barracks (which you build anyways for bunkers) and cannons are 50% more expensive and cannot be salvaged. Zerg will have an even easier time A moving over protoss, I expect single digit winrates in PvZ... I guess I'll just have to wait a month or two to play the game again after this horribly stupid and unwarranted patch. It's like FFE wasn't a main build in PvZ for years and years lol. Now suddenly building a forge is too much. smh.
Sorry mate, do you even play or watch LotV? Are you familiar with the new Zerg unit called the Ravager, which has a super strong spell, that outranges any static D in the game? FFE is not viable in LotV, period.
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On January 26 2016 18:29 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 18:25 ProtossMasterRace wrote:On January 26 2016 18:21 Laurens wrote:On January 26 2016 18:09 ProtossMasterRace wrote:On January 26 2016 17:54 Jj_82 wrote:On January 26 2016 12:36 Mozdk wrote:I don't see P doing a good job defending early on, when they didn't add additional range to this. I don't see why P should not build an army like everyone else early on, or get the forge for cannons. Having such an early flyer that offers offensive vision AND shooting pylons allows for being very greedy. Unlike any other race. I never understood that. Zerg has queens and can build spores and spines just by building a spawning pool. Terran t1 units are a lot stronger so they are safe early on with maybe a bunker at the front. lol which terran units are we talking about here? It's like the -1 damage has suddenly made adepts bad vs marines or what? Cannons are so much better than bunkers too. Use them. Yes, yes it has. Marines that are t1 cheap units will trade cost efficiently against t1.5 adepts that are specifically anti light unit. You need a forge to build cannons, you only need barracks (which you build anyways for bunkers) and cannons are 50% more expensive and cannot be salvaged. Zerg will have an even easier time A moving over protoss, I expect single digit winrates in PvZ... I guess I'll just have to wait a month or two to play the game again after this horribly stupid and unwarranted patch. It's like FFE wasn't a main build in PvZ for years and years lol. Now suddenly building a forge is too much. smh.
I suggest you go play Protoss on ladder and do FFE and see how well you do against Ravagers.
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I have no idea why Mr. Kim beating the dead horse aka PvZ and still totally blind on how shitty the map pool is and how it favors Zerg retardedly.
Nerf adept I don't care, nerf PO nobody cares if you have a decent map pool and add some ability to survive Zerg bullshit.
I tend to believe in balance team either zergs are terribad or protosses are godlike.
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EPT
