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Cyro
United Kingdom20326 Posts
I think the Adept was designed to be a stable Gateway unit that is actually reliable in direct combat, as opposed to Stalkers and, to some extent, Zealots. I reacall DK saying this very thing (at least I think). That's why it got a relatively large HP and decent damage output. Then, of course, the Shade was added big mistake to nerf core stats instead of shade IMO Protoss has always been the gimmicky race and the two expansions have just made that worse | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
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NonY
8751 Posts
On January 27 2016 02:37 p68 wrote: The best bet was actually to kill key pylons, rather than baiting overcharges. At 25 energy, baiting had a very small impact. Look how early pressure from Zerg and Terran handled the situation: Terrans used cyclones to kill off the MSC or key pylons and Zerg used Ravagers. These units and strategies wouldn't be necessary if baiting was very effective early on. Running the MSC energy down occurs in the PvP's I play. Maybe it's a playstyle thing. But if you are always expanding and playing defensively yourself and don't run into a lot of protoss who pressure you, I guess maybe you've never experienced it? Maybe there are different styles on different servers? On January 27 2016 02:37 p68 wrote: Should the MSC really be able to defend so effectively by itself? Is that the intent behind the design? It's already incredibly cost- and supply-effective compared to anything Terran or Zerg can put out for early defense and it will remain that way. The fact that it became standard to take a fast third in addition to performing effective harass simultaneously is a testament to how powerful it really was. This was a really clear issue in PvT, and we've seen GSL matches where it didn't even matter if the Terran player effectively defended the harass; the Protoss player was still ahead economically, which is a peculiar result for an early harass build. It's just bad design overall. If Protoss needs a buff elsewhere to compensate,they should absolutely get it. I don't really want to get into the philosophy of game design. The game is played how it is, has the potential to be played different ways, and sometimes Blizzard can come in and change the rules. They can either do it for balance reasons or for other reasons. This is a balance patch so I don't think you can talk about how things ought to work or what their intended role was or anything like that. There's just how things work and how we think they might work in the future with a little more player knowledge and ability. And we take that and look at how it affects matchup balance. If there's a gameplay redesign patch that they're working on, then other concerns are on the table. But the goal of a balance patch is to affect the game as little as possible while getting 56%+ win rate situations back within the acceptable range. The PO change is a very blunt instrument in this case that deserves a little criticism. Resorting to gameplay philosophy is not an appropriate defense for a balance patch. The games where protoss expands and harasses simultaneously are not situations where protoss is getting the better of terran in every category. What's happening is that the terran is choosing to play conservatively and predictably and is getting taken advantage of. Terrans can drastically change things up to enter a more clear rock-paper-scissors situation, where it wouldn't feel like protoss has all the cards. They can hard counter the adept harass or they can preempt it to change the course of the game. It seems like people view the protoss build as a strong standard way to play but really it is just one notch on the tactical wheel that too many terrans have not bothered to counter, hoping that the style they feel comfortable with will end up being sufficient, which hasn't been the case. People view the other things terran have to do for wins as gimmicky or something, like not a real way to play the game, when it's actually all equal from the perspective of strategy. On January 27 2016 02:37 p68 wrote: This is a good thing. Particularly in PvT, Protoss players had incredible flexibility (harass options and low-risk greedy plays), while Terrans were in this exact doom-and-gloom situation you described here. PO is the primary reason why Terrans, even at GSL level, struggled to punish a Protoss player that invested in failed harass and a fast third. If it turns out that early game becomes too favorable for Terran, Protoss should get buffed. Period. But it sure as hell shouldn't be any more silly gimmicks like PO. IDK man you don't talk like someone who is just trying to learn and get better at the game ("silly gimmick"). If you can't separate out your game design preferences from your attempts to learn and understand the game then I don't think you can have a clear opinion. | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On January 27 2016 02:58 Cyro wrote: big mistake to nerf core stats instead of shade IMO Protoss has always been the gimmicky race and the two expansions have just made that worse How is the shade a gimmick? In my understanding, a gimmick is something that is only useful when the opponent doesn't expect it. Adepts can always be expected in any MU and are a skill based unit, opposed to a "I hope my opponent screws up" unit, like the DT. So no, Adepts are not gimmicky at all. They scale with patience, micro and the ability to foresee. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20326 Posts
In marketing terminology, the term gimmick refers to a unique or quirky special feature that makes something "stand out" from its contemporaries something that is not serious or of real value that is used to attract people's attention gimmick noun a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or trade There are a lot of definitions out there but this only useful when the opponent doesn't expect it isn't one of them, actually.It's another flashy feature that raises the worth of the unit without actually helping its combat strength at all and they nerf combat strength in a major way once again because of it | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On January 27 2016 03:23 Cyro wrote: There are a lot of definitions out there but this isn't one of them, actually. It's another flashy feature that raises the worth of the unit without actually helping its combat strength at all But it does increase the combat strength of Adepts, the same way that Stim or Medivac boost does. Combat strength is more than just hp, damage, rate of fire and movement speed. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20326 Posts
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On January 27 2016 03:30 Cyro wrote: You have a very different definition of combat strength to me Shading on top of enemy forces - like siege tanks or behind MMM, thereby preventing kiting/escape - does increase combat strength, don't you agree? | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6271 Posts
I was responding to his claim that foreign players apparently don't use zealot/archon/immortal which is wrong (I.E. Drogo used it before Koreans in HSC). He's certainly not the only foreign player using it either. Winning DH or not is really irrelevant to the point. | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
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Elentos
55568 Posts
On January 27 2016 02:40 pure.Wasted wrote: How do we explain that to INnoVation, who's still got a TvP coming up? Sorry INno, you have to die to Adepts and miss out on a season of premiers because otherwise it won't be fair to Stork? I don't think INno will find that extremely fair. And he's the one who actually has a chance of winning a Korean premier, or attending Blizzcon, given remotely good balance. How do we explain that to Classic, who's still got a PvT coming up? Sorry Classic, you have 1 day to prepare for a BO5 with nerfed adepts and overcharge, hope you have fun losing against jjakji? I don't think Classic will find that extremely fair. And he's the one who actually has a chance of winning a Korean premier, or attending Blizzcon, given remotely good balance. How do we explain to INnoVation that everyone in Code A has to play on the same balance patch? Really now? Would that need a justification? It's not going to happen, but would it honest to god need a justification to have all 30 matches played on the same patch? And it's not like TvP is completely unwinnable. Case in point being TY vs Patience. If Inno has a chance of winning a premier given good balance he should have a chance of winning a match given meh balance. On January 27 2016 03:47 Tenks wrote: I wonder if a Protoss build will emerge like FFE and rush +1 for Adepts and proceed similarly with WP harass while taking a relatively safe third Doesn't every FFE build die to ravager and/or nydus? And FFE against Terran isn't gonna get good any time soon. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
Combat shields negate +1. Combat shileds WILL be researched before or at the same time as +1 if it is rushed. | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
I honestly haven't seen an FFE attempted TvP in LotV. It may be stronger now that Marauders are a bit nerfed vs cannons. Or it may not work at all. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On January 27 2016 03:08 NonY wrote: This is a balance patch so I don't think you can talk about how things ought to work or what their intended role was or anything like that. There's just how things work and how we think they might work in the future with a little more player knowledge and ability. And we take that and look at how it affects matchup balance. If there's a gameplay redesign patch that they're working on, then other concerns are on the table. But the goal of a balance patch is to affect the game as little as possible while getting 56%+ win rate situations back within the acceptable range. The PO change is a very blunt instrument in this case that deserves a little criticism. Resorting to gameplay philosophy is not an appropriate defense for a balance patch. Is it a balance patch, though? The +15 vs Bio Spore Crawler change was 10000% for ZvZ. PvT numbers look very even and the Adept got a nerf. PvZ numbers are awful for P and PO got nerfed. I doubt that there has ever been a more clear design patch in the history of SC2... | ||
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Elentos
55568 Posts
On January 27 2016 04:27 Tenks wrote: I honestly haven't seen an FFE attempted TvP in LotV. It may be stronger now that Marauders are a bit nerfed vs cannons. Or it may not work at all. There's some builds that will completely murder any forge builds because the cyber core is delayed I think. Especially cyclone cheese with floated barracks. | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
If anything this fucks balance even more. But people want a game where Protoss loses ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ On a serious note, people want Protoss to defend "with units" because it's "fair" and they don't want the outcome of the game to be decided by whether or not one player decides to do a certain cheese that wins "every time". | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On January 27 2016 04:41 DinoMight wrote: I'd be 100% okay with removing the fucking shade from the game if it meant we could take fights without requiring splash damage at all times. I actually strongly disagree with this. Shade is the only thing about Adepts that takes good control and multitasking. Remove it and buff Zealot/Adept and we're effectively back to Bio vs Colossus where the burden of micro falls way more on the Terran. I'd rather they nerf Adept base stats further but make Shade better than it is now to allow P to be much more mobile. | ||
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Melliflue
United Kingdom1389 Posts
On January 27 2016 04:30 pure.Wasted wrote: Is it a balance patch, though? The +15 vs Bio Spore Crawler change was 10000% for ZvZ. PvT numbers look very even and the Adept got a nerf. PvZ numbers are awful for P and PO got nerfed. I doubt that there has ever been a more clear design patch in the history of SC2... There is no spore crawler change and plenty of Terrans have been saying that PvT is unbalanced in Protoss's favour because Adepts are 0P. | ||
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