EPTGreatest Players of All Time: Part 3 - Page 9
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Garemie
United States248 Posts
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
I think we both agree asd wasn't good enough to be worth considering. As for the power ranks, those PRs were done before the results, we get the benefit of seeing how everything turned out. Thats why I can say Nada/Keen had fallen off and weren't worth considering. Clide had intense problems ever moving beyond the ro16 his entire career, so I never considered him either, but its fair enough to say he was cracking somewhere between Top10-15. As for IPL Sniper was only Top 1 player for that exact weekend for winning GSL. It was his peak performance and like I said before, there are differences in degrees. MC was still the best toss for early 2012, but anyone in the top 5 P could have taken him out while in 2011, the only one that could have maybe done it was Inca in his 2011 prime. Now Bomber is a weird player. You can't use conventional rankings with him. I noted how erratic sOs was in the 15th bit, Bomber was even more erratic. The Bomber Law exists for a reasona nd it exists because for every hot run Bomber did he'd immediately mob out afterwards. In his case I'd say he was a Top 5 T at the time (He'd gotten top 4 at MLG fall just a few weeks before IPL) and his form hit Top 3 for that particular tournament. Then he fell off the face of the earth again. | ||
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MASTERCAKES
United States127 Posts
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LeviathanDK
Denmark87 Posts
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On April 26 2015 04:31 Gorlin wrote: While I understand where you are coming from, I do think its incorrect to disregard it entirely when considering a list of the greatest players, not just the best individual league players. That's a good point that it would be unfair to include it only for MMA, but what other players on this list would be substantially impacted by it? There's DRG, who I don't think you would have bumped above Maru anyway. Then there's Innovation against Zest. Maybe that would have changed your relative ranking between them? It doesn't really seem like it though. There's Taeja, but he got 3rd anyway (which I agree with) and his team league performance wouldn't be enough to get him into the top 2 regardless. But for MMA and Polt, who you said was "by far, the most difficult decision to make in the entire list", the impact of team league results is clearly more meaningful in ranking the two. I essentially had no way to personally quantify how important the team leagues were overall. I actually think if I had included team leagues, Innovation could have been bumped over Zest. He is the best Team League player to have ever been in the history of SC2. I'm pretty certain MMA would be the third best team league player to have ever been, but I'd have to create a system and see how it interacts with things that pushed Polt over the edge (like doing well in worse metas and having longer consistency). Since I didn't find an answer that satisfied me, I just didn't include it. It could be a mistake, but I couldnt in good conscious include a factor that I personally was unable to quantify in its importance of greatness. | ||
KadaverBB
Germany25649 Posts
On April 26 2015 04:53 LeviathanDK wrote: here is a fact for why you put Taeja as number 3.. this is a news for TL.. real life taeja and MMA would be switched around That's not a fact, that is you being wrong. | ||
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swag_bro
Japan782 Posts
On April 26 2015 04:31 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: That's Innovation you're thinking of. Taeja wins most of the time because he thinks well ingame in terms of army movement/positioning/army composition/decision making. Except in Korean tournaments. | ||
Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
1. LiquidSucksBallsWithoutMe but seriously a bunch of you are idiots repeating the same "durrr Liquid bias Taeja never won a single game in Korea I heard" Guessing ya'll didn't watch Taeja in IPL TAC. Guessing ya'll don't think about how he has won more Premiers than anyone else. Guessing none of you have seen him body GSL heavy hitters (in weekend events and sometimes in GSL remember he has actually made some Ro4s) over a period of 3+ years On my GOAT list I had Taeja at 4 behind MC but I can see him at 3 | ||
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Gorlin
United States2753 Posts
On April 26 2015 04:55 stuchiu wrote: I essentially had no way to personally quantify how important the team leagues were overall. I actually think if I had included team leagues, Innovation could have been bumped over Zest. He is the best Team League player to have ever been in the history of SC2. I'm pretty certain MMA would be the third best team league player to have ever been, but I'd have to create a system and see how it interacts with things that pushed Polt over the edge (like doing well in worse metas and having longer consistency). Since I didn't find an answer that satisfied me, I just didn't include it. It could be a mistake, but I couldnt in good conscious include a factor that I personally was unable to quantify in its importance of greatness. Sure, I realize that it would have been extremely difficult to include those results in a quantifiable way, but you already established that you were considering intangible elements (adversity, balance, innovation, etc.) which are inherently decided arbitrarily. So I think it would be simple, and fair, enough to at least consider team leagues in an arbitrary way similar to that without having to necessarily consider every game played in every league. | ||
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Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
On April 26 2015 04:16 bo1b wrote: If you ever write a goat list for defining the way the games played I hope he's #1 I hope he's not because then the list would be wrong D: | ||
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NanowaX
Germany190 Posts
On April 26 2015 03:09 Gorlin wrote: While I agree that Polt and MMA are incredibly close, I don't entirely agree with your assessment/pairing of tournaments. Notably, this stood out to me: IPL 5 - 3rd - YoDa, Creator, loss to Leenock, Sniper, Bomber, loss to viOLet vs. GSL 2011 October - 1st - loss to Nestea, Happy, Mvp (Finals higher prestige) Iron Squid 1 - 1st - Jjakji, pre-Champion Life, loss to MaNa, aLive, Symbol You really think that 3rd at IPL 5 beats out a first in a GSL? Would like to hear more about this. Even the players MMA beat along the way are more impressive in my opinion, notably an Mvp in his prime at TvT. Honestly, I think WCS 2015 (which you said were unable to pair with anything, but doesn't add that much in terms of victories against top opponents) and IPL 5 is a reasonable matchup with GSL and Iron Squid. Furthermore, and I don't know if you addressed this anywhere, but your ranking seems to completely ignore team league results. Polt has essentially no results in this regard, while MMA was a team league monster at two seperate times (the driving force behind two GSTL wins and a big part of Acer's success in ATC. I think that easily pushes the comparison into MMA's favor. could not agree more! considering your facts and especially valueing gsl and gstl higher as well as including team league results i certainly would place MMA as number 3 of all time. | ||
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sc2chronic
United States777 Posts
On April 26 2015 05:03 Darkhorse wrote: 2. MoustacheTerran 1. LiquidSucksBallsWithoutMe but seriously a bunch of you are idiots repeating the same "durrr Liquid bias Taeja never won a single game in Korea I heard" Guessing ya'll didn't watch Taeja in IPL TAC. Guessing ya'll don't think about how he has won more Premiers than anyone else. Guessing none of you have seen him body GSL heavy hitters (in weekend events and sometimes in GSL remember he has actually made some Ro4s) over a period of 3+ years On my GOAT list I had Taeja at 4 behind MC but I can see him at 3 Durrr liquid bias. way to generalize everyone. there are actually people who have read the article and gave good reasons why taeja shouldnt have been #3. but "DURR LIQUID BIAS" is all you see. youre just as bad as the people who do say that. | ||
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Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
On April 26 2015 05:17 sc2chronic wrote: Durrr liquid bias. way to generalize everyone. there are actually people who have read the article and gave good reasons why taeja shouldnt have been #3. but "DURR LIQUID BIAS" is all you see. youre just as bad as the people who do say that. You're right. That was a generalization and I apologize for that However, you can't deny that there are a number of posts in this thread that are "durr Liquid bias" Also I think it's funny because you say people have done research and given good reasons against Taeja, but I just read all your posts in this thread. You aren't one of those people | ||
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Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
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Dumbledore
Sweden725 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 26 2015 04:47 MASTERCAKES wrote: No Parting in the top 15 is brutal This so much. And no sOs is also kind of weird, given how stuchiu said he would value Blizzcon winners very highly in part1. Leenock, MKP and Rain all got in without any of the big titles (Blizzcon, GSL, NSSL) and less high placements than PartinG overall. | ||
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Jormundr
United States1678 Posts
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Thaniri
1264 Posts
First off, this article doesn't make a personal attack on anyone's own top 15 list. Second, and more important. Every. Article. Is. Biased. Objective writing doesn't exist in a context like this. Stuchiu as the writer has preferences for how the top 15 was selected, and that criteria is linked at the top of the post. If you want to bash the article for getting players in the wrong order, or your favourite player not being on the list, then use that post with stuchiu's own criteria for what constitutes the best player of all time as the foundation for your argument agains't it. edit: I take affront to MKP being on the top 15 at all, but it's not my article. | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On April 26 2015 05:17 sc2chronic wrote: Durrr liquid bias. way to generalize everyone. there are actually people who have read the article and gave good reasons why taeja shouldnt have been #3. but "DURR LIQUID BIAS" is all you see. youre just as bad as the people who do say that. While this may be true, I disagree that anyone's arguments having been more compelling against Taeja's position than stuchiu's arguments in favor. Further, you have not been particularly conducive to a civilized discussion on the topic. And what's more, you seem to think that there is any way to create a ranking of this magnitude in an objective fashion, with objective criteria. There isn't, but I think stuchiu has done a good job making it clear precisely how he values different achievements. I have great respect for the people that take the time to do the same before proceeding to argue against stuchiu's ranking, but very few people have done him the courtesy of doing so. | ||
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