Making a list like this was always problematic. With nearly 5 years of gameplay there is a huge amount of information to parse. First, there is prestige of a tournament, measuring and making judgements on the GSL as compared to international LANS, tournament formats, and paths taken to the Championships. Next, the player’s level relative to the time must be considered with several caveats: the increased talent pool in modern times, the mass migration of KeSPA pros, and then the mass retirement of former KeSPA players and ESF players. Consistency over a long period of time as compared to peak/clutch has often been considered one of the most important measures, but their effect on the game itself is equally important. We must consider the innovation and creativity they used to make strategies as well as the refinement of pre-existing strategies, the meta in which they played and the outside factors they had to face during their reigns.
Another thing to keep in mind is the tiering of tournaments. A basic guideline is Blizzcons(Only 2013+) > GSL > OSL/SSL/Kespa Cup/WCS (2012 KR)/WCG KR/Blizzcon 2011 > International Tournaments. Blizzcon is at the highest because after 2013 it became the end all for the year, increasing the amount of pressure to win it. GSL is next as it has had the best format since Jan 2011, has the most preparation per round and has the best competition. The format and amount of players is what puts it slightly above the other Korean LANs like OSL, SSL, KeSPA/Hot6ix Cup, WCS KR 2012 and WCG KR. International tournaments are roughly below them, though depending on the player pool it can go all the way up being very close to GSL levels of prestige if many top players attended the event.
It is inevitable that many will argue for or against the inclusion or exclusion of certain players in the overall top 15 depending on what criteria you’ve used to judge their placing. However, as there is no definitive list to argue for or against, this is my attempt to codify a list of the all time greats as of this very moment.
“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.” - Sun Tzu, Art of War
For my money there is no one in SC2 who understands himself more than Polt. And there is no player who truly understands the skill difference between himself and his opponents. Polt has never lied, neither to himself or his opponents. Initially this got him a lot of hate from the community as he commented correctly that Jinro was bound to fall out of the top echelon of Code S players as he just wasn’t up to snuff. It was why he was able to dissect and kill the combination of MMA and Ryu Won. It is why among all terrans he has always been one of the few that have gotten even stronger during bad metas for terran in 2012, 2013 and 2014.
Many people talk about the GomTvT era with a sense of derision. Yet from that era came some of the greatest terrans to have ever played the game. Players like Mvp, MMA, Bomber and Polt. And all of them have one unique aspect to them that have made them stand apart from the cookie cutter INnoVation imitations of the new era. It is that they were all forced into a new game. Each of them were forced to take this new game and find their own solutions. You get a very strong sense of what they think and who they are. You can see their very personalities in the way they play and the vision of victory they want to implement when they play.
For Polt that vision of victory is one he has implemented both inside and outside the game. It is a vision of balance. Polt does not want to be an average gamer, but he won't sacrifice everything to become the greatest of all time either. Instead he wants be successful, to find a way to secure his own life without having to bet it all on a shaky esports career. That is why during 2011-2012, despite being one of the best terrans in the world, he still continued his studies at Seoul University. It is how Polt was able to both study in America while competing for to be one of the best players in 2013.
Perhaps that is why he is such an incredibly charismatic figure in SC2. In an industry where it is the norm to risk your studies, your jobs, your lives, Polt shows that not only is it possible to balance those things with competitive gaming, but he also showed you can exceed at both. Even his role in the career is one of balance. He spent his first half of his career in Korea as the villain. Another faceless terran that insulted the foreign favorite Jinro. Yet once he moved abroad, he learned English, became Stephano’s greatest rival and with the force of his personality and gameplay, became one of the darlings of SC2. Even in his latest outing in WCS Season 1 2015, he eliminated local hero after local hero (including a French native in FireCake, a french emigre in ForGG, and Bunny the last foreigner), yet game after game, interview after interview he won the hearts of the audience and fans around the world.
Play Style:
On this list, Polt is close to if not the least talented player in terms of mechanics. In terms of sheer APM he was often dwarfed by his peers in any era. Here is an interesting stat. We measured the APM of Mvp, MMA, MKP and Polt in their primes. They were 370, 360, 360 and 260 respectively. Their EPM (which is effective APM that filters out that spamming) had all of them around the 160-170 mark. Polt may have had the least amount of APM, but he made it count more than any of his peers. And that differential has only increased in size the longer he has stayed in the game.Yet Polt is one of the few players to have won a Premier Tournament in every year of SC2. And it was not by chance.
Earlier I talked about how Polt approached the game with incredible intellect. What I meant was that Polt understands his weak points and he understands his strong points. He knows that his APM is lower so he must use it more efficiently. He must find a way to make his APM do more work than his opponents. So what he does is he solves matchups. He looked at TvT and came up with an aggressive style of bio tank that allowed him to break siege tank lines with aggressive marine splits that minimized damage, gave him a better concave and let him take awkward fights.
There was an old triangle back in 2011. It was MMA > Mvp > Polt > MMA . It was very much in line with how their styles mesh. Mvp combined solid mechanics with great defensive play, meaning he never allowed Polt to dictate engagements in positions favorable to Polt. MMA always beat Mvp because he had close to similar mechanics, but was much more adept at creating flowing harassment or clever all-ins that disrupted Mvp’s defense. This allowed MMA to get further ahead or win the game. On the other hand, Polt always beat MMA because he never allowed MMA to dictate the terms of the match because Polt was the one on the offensive. Polt’s style broke through MMA’s harassment style because of Polt’s superior positional awareness. If this was Rock Paper Scissors, Polt was the Rock, MMA was the Scissors and Mvp was Paper.
In fact Polt’s tactical and positional thinking is some of the best ever seen in SC2. Fionn had an interesting stat: in 2012 TvTs, Polt never lost a bio-tank vs bio-tank battle except against Ryung (a player who has won some of the hardest positional games ever played in the history of SC2) and Taeja. Not only did Polt solve TvT to emphasize his strengths, he did it for TvZ and TvP as well.
If there was a match that best informed about Polt’s methodology towards TvZ it was Polt vs Stephano. Both were two of the most intelligent players to have ever played SC2. Neither had the mechanics of their peers, yet both found new ways to play the game that changed the battlefield to one that favored their strengths. So inevitably they both ended up having some of the greatest games ever played. Polt gave up on the typical terran response of using drop harass to thin out the zerg army and using mechanics to win the war of cost efficiency and instead bet it all on one gigantic push where his APM became a smaller factor and his positioning became more important. In many ways Stephano mirrored that style (who could ever forget the Stephano roach max), leading the two players to engage in large confrontations, then into economic warfare, and finally into small scrappy fights that went down to the last unit.
The final matchup that really shows Polt’s intelligence is his TvP, specifically his TvP during the blink era. Back then every terran in Korea except Maru could not win a bo3+ against a protoss. Maru could only do it because his micro and control could not be overwhelmed in a battle of mechanics. For a player like Polt, that style was impossible. Instead he chose the seemingly absurd route and counterattacked. The crux of what made the Blink Era so strong for protoss was terran knew what they were going to do, but there was no way to punish it, no way to get ahead and no way to kill it. All you could do was defend it on maps that allowed near 270 different angles to blink in from. This meant that terran went down a specific path which allowed protoss to open up however they wanted without fear of reprisal. The Blink All-in either killed the terran, put protoss far ahead that they inevitably won the army clash or at worst put them even. Even when the Blink All-in “failed”, protoss could always play the mindgame of pretending to transition and then attacking with an even stronger All-in. So while every other terran (besides Taeja and Maru) was either dying or losing holed up in his base, Polt came up with his own solution.
If you cannot win a straight up fight, then don’t try to win a straight up fight. He created the counter attack style and in his famous run at IEM Cologne, he beat two of the best Koreans in PvT. And he did it in a hugely imbalanced matchup against superior mechanical players by refusing to engage. That is what makes Polt brilliant. These new age protoss were all just stronger than he was when it comes to the direct confrontation and pure mechanics. If he played the “standard” game he’d lose every time. That is why he had always counterattacked and that is why he has never pulled SCVs against protoss. It is just playing into the hands of his opponents' strengths. Instead, he forces the game into a game of tactical and positional prowess. He concedes that his opponent will always have a better army, better tech, better economy, but Polt has created his own pathway to survival, to victory.
Another aspect of Polt’s play is his creativity. Every once in a while, when he is allowed to prepare for a specific player in a specific matchup for a large amount of time he comes out with something insane. There are three big examples. The first was when he met MC in the GSL Open 1 and unveiled the 1-1-1. The second was his finals against MMA, where Polt had analyzed all of MMA’s TvTs and MMA's games at MLG to find his weakness and obliterate him at the GSL Super Tournament. The third time was his series against Classic at Blizzcon 2014 where he did the build of the century. He took an obscure mech v P build (one used by GuMiho once and not seen by any but the most hardcore of fans), tailored it into a 2 base all-in and completely shut down Classic in that one game.
Perhaps the most important piece to Polt’s gameplay is his composure or clutch factor. In 2013, there was a saying about Polt: “Once Polt gets behind in the game, he is certain to win.” This adage came about because Polt often found himself behind in economy, army supply and upgrades in WCS NA. Yet it only seemed to make him strong; Polt still won through superior use of tactical positioning and intelligence. The reasons for this is simple: the impact and importance of mechanics decreases as a game extends beyond the late game. Polt has created multiple series throughout his career that have seemed magical due to his ability to recover victory from the jaws of defeat.
Polt is able to stay calm in any series against any opponent, analyze the situation and find a way to make the series his. The best example of this was his most recent WCS 2015 run. In the playoffs he played against ForGG, Bunny and Hydra. Against ForGG, Polt was the underdog; Polt had lost his last two series against him (0-2 and 0-3). Yet Polt prevailed because he realized that ForGG was more afraid of him than the other way around. In his words he said, “ForGG’s best is mech. But ForGG went bio instead of mech in game 3. That means that ForGG thinks his best can’t beat me so he had to try something else.” Against Bunny, Polt was considered the slight favorite, but if you had looked at their recent series, Bunny had been leading 2-1, with the most recent encounter a 2-0 in Bunny’s favor. This time Polt went down 1-2 in the series. Yet Polt once more came back in the series and in his interview he said, “After losing the first few games, I learned how Bunny opened and learned that I could beat him in the late game. So I wasn’t worried, even though I was down overall.” In the finals against Hydra, Polt was again the underdog. Hydra had beaten him in their last two series, one of which was just the day before. Hydra even went up 3-1. But again Polt stayed composed and looked at his previous games and evaluated the mistakes he had made in the earlier games and realized there was a very real chance he could not only get to the late game, but beat Hydra there. So Polt stayed composed and created one of the best comebacks ever seen in a SC2 finals.
Difference between Polt and MMA
Separating Polt and MMA was, by far, the most difficult decision to make in the entire list. It forced me to drag out everything the two players had done in their entire careers. Every tournament they attended and the context of each, every opponent they faced and their relative strength at the time, every meta they played in and every adversity they faced was considered. I even considered the intangibles: MMA's indomitable spirit against personal and professional setbacks against Polt's enviable balance and intelligence in constantly solving matchups. Even the impact they had on the scene. In almost every way they were even.
Polt Tier 1: GSL Super Tournament - 1st - HuK, Alicia, TOP, MMA GSL August 2011 - Top 4 - MMA, Keen, loss to TOP NASL Season 4 2012 - 3rd - Huk, DRG, aLive, loss to HerO IPL 5 - 3rd - YoDa, Creator, loss to Leenock, Sniper, Bomber, loss to viOLet WCS NA Season 2 2013 - 1st - loss to Taeja, Alicia, Jim, Oz, Taeja, Jaedong WCS NA Season 3 2013 - 1st - Revival, ByuL, Heart, Oz, ByuL IEM Cologne 2014 - 2nd - StarDust, Classic, Rain, loss to HerO IEM WC 2014 - Top 4 - Naniwa, Dear, loss to herO WCS NA Season 2 2014 - Top 4 - MacSed, Jaedong, Heart, HerO, loss to Bomber Blizzcon 2013 - Top 8 - aLive, loss to sOs MLG Spring Arena 2012 - Top 6 - DRG, Symbol, loss to Violet, loss to MC IEM Sao Paulo - Top 8 - herO, loss to Jjakji BlizzCup - Top 6 - Naniwa, Nestea, MMA, loss to Mvp WCS NA Season 2 2014 - Ro8 - loss to Hyun DH Winter 2014 - Top 6 - MMA, Snute, loss to Jjakji, loss to Impact, loss to ForGG, loss to Taeja WCS NA Season 1 2014 - Ro8 - Bomber, loss to Revival DH Winter 2013 - Top 8 - loss to Life, loss to JYP, loss to MMA, StarDust, Hyun, HerO, loss to Patience Blizzcon 2013 - Top 8 - aLive, loss to sOs
Tier 2: MLG Spring Championship 2013 - 1st - Naniwa, Dear, Naniwa, HyuN MLG Anaheim 2014 - 2nd - Scarlett, Stardust, viOLet, loss to Trap Red Bull Washington - 3rd - loss to Cure, PartinG, Scarlett, loss to Bomber IPL 4 - Top 8 - Squirtle, MC, Puma, loss to aLive, loss to MMA MLG Spring Championship 2012 - Top 8 - No one noteworthy MLG Spring Arena 2012 - Top 6 - DRG, Symbol, loss to viOLet, loss to MC
Tier 3: ASUS ROG Winter 2012 - 1st - Taeja, HerO, Stephano DH Stockholm 2012 - 2nd - Ret, loss to Thorzain Red Bull Atlanta - 2nd - loss to Bomber Red Bull Detroit - 1st - San, viOLet, Taeja IEM Shanghai - Top 8 - Hyun, loss to Revival IEM Sao Paulo - Top 8 - herO, loss to Jjakji
MMA Tier 1: GSL Blizzard Cup - 1st - Nestea, Leenock, Naniwa, Polt, Mvp, DRG WCS EU Season 2 2013 - Top 4 - loss to Naniwa, loss to MC WCS EU Season 3 2013 - 1st - duckdeok, Vortix, MC IEM Bucharest 2013 - Top 4 - Snute, Flash, YugiOh, ForGG, loss to INnoVation WCS EU Season 1 2014 - 2nd - loss to Welmu, loss to VortiX, Bunny, Mvp, Snute, San, loss to MC WCS EU Season 3 2014 - 1st - YoDa, loss to Golden, ForGG, San, YoDa Blizzcon 2014 - 2nd - StarDust, Bomber, Classic, loss to Life GSL Season 1 2015 - Top 4 - Dark, INnoVation, TY, loss to PartinG IPL 4 - Top 4 - loss to MKP, Polt, Stephano, loss to Squirtle WCS Season 3 Finals - Ro8 - Jaedong, loss to Maru DH Winter 2014 - Top 8 - Snute, loss to Polt, loss to Jjakji, Patience, loss to Jjakji GSL November 2011 - Ro8 - MC, Nestea, Leenock (Bo1s), loss to Oz GSL Season 1 2012 - Ro8 - GuMiho, Oz twice, loss to aLive DH Winter 2013 - Top 6 - loss to Life, loss to JYP, Polt, StarDust, Patience, loss to Taeja, loss to Patience GSL Global Championship - Seeded in but fell out - doesn’t count. (MMA)
Tier 2: Iron Squid 1 - 1st - Jjakji, pre-Champion Life, loss to MaNa, aLive, Symbol MLG Anaheim - 2nd - loss to Rain, Naniwa, DRG, Ganzi, Boxer, loss to Mvp IPL 3 - Top 4 - Puma, loss to Lucky DH Stockholm - Ro8 - Life, loss to ForGG
Tier 3: MLG Columbus - 1st - July, Idra, Losira IEM WC 2012 - 3rd - viOLet, loss to Puma HSC IX - Ro8 - Taeja, loss to Scarlett
That is right. I was forced to write down every Ro8 and then I compared them all. In the end the difference came down to this: MMA had more “prestige points”. WCS EU is about as prestigious as WCS NA. Blizzcon is much more prestigious than IEM Cologne 2014. Polt had harder competition in far worse metas (BL/infestor and the Blink Era). MMA had a higher peak in 2011 and has a higher peak now. It was an endless struggle back and forth but in the end I came to the final decision was Polt. The harder competition during his runs, the fact that WCS NA was more competitive than WCS EU and the metas in which he shined just barely, barely put him over MMA. *And most recently Polt's win in 2015 WCS tipped it more decisively in his favor.
For reference here is an entire checklist of how I balanced the scales: GSL Super Tournament - 1st - HuK, Alicia, TOP, MMA vs. ST - 2nd - SuperNova, Ganzi, Ryung, MKP, loss to Polt IEM Keiv - 1st - Zenio, Dimaga
GSL August 2011 - Top 4 - MMA, Keen, loss to TOP DH Stockholm 2012 - 2nd - Ret, loss to Thorzain vs. WCS EU Season 1 2014 - 2nd loss to Welmu, loss to VortiX, Bunny, Mvp, Snute, San, loss to MC
NASL Season 4 2012 - 3rd - HuK, DRG, aLive, loss to HerO Red Bull Atlanta - 2nd - loss to Bomber BlizzCup - Top 6 - Naniwa, Nestea, MMA, loss to Mvp vs. WCS EU Season 3 2013 - 1st - duckdeok, VortiX, MC IPL 3 - Top 4 - Puma, loss to Lucky
IPL 5 - 3rd - YoDa, Creator, loss to Leenock, Sniper, Bomber, loss to viOLet vs. GSL 2011 October - 1st - loss to Nestea, Happy, Mvp (Finals higher prestige) Iron Squid 1 - 1st - Jjakji, pre-Champion Life, loss to MaNa, aLive, Symbol
WCS NA Season 2 2013 - 1st - loss to Taeja, Alicia, Jim, Oz, Taeja, Jaedong vs. WCS EU Season 3 2014 - 1st - YoDa, loss to Golden, ForGG, San, Yoda IEM WC 2012 - 3rd - viOLet, loss to Puma
WCS NA Season 3 2013 - 1st - Revival, ByuL, Heart, Oz, ByuL Red Bull Detroit - 1st - San, viOLet, Taeja vs. GSL Blizzard Cup - 1st - Nestea, Leenock, Naniwa, Polt, Mvp, DRG
WCS NA Season 2 2014 - Top 4 - MacSed, Jaedong, Heart, HerO, loss to Bomber vs. IEM Bucharest 2013 - Top 4 - Snute, Flash, YugiOh, ForGG, loss to INnoVation
IEM WC 2014 - Top 4 - Naniwa, Dear, loss to herO IEM Cologne 2014 - 2nd - StarDust, Classic, Rain, loss to HerO vs Blizzcon 2014 - 2nd - StarDust, Bomber, Classic, loss to Life
MLG Anaheim 2014 - 2nd - Scarlett, Stardust, viOLet, loss to Trap Red Bull Washington - 3rd - loss to Cure, PartinG, Scarlett, loss to Bomber vs GSL Season 1 2015 - Top 4 - Dark, INnoVation, TY, loss to PartinG WCS EU Season 2 2013 - Top 4 - loss to Naniwa, loss to MC
MLG Spring Championship 2013 - 1st - Naniwa, Dear, Naniwa, HyuN vs. MLG Columbus - 1st - July, Idra, Losira HSC IX - Ro8- Taeja, loss to Scarlett DH Stockholm - Ro8 - Life, loss to ForGG
ASUS ROG Winter 2012 - 1st - Taeja, HerO, Stephano vs DH Moscow - 1st - loss to Jjakji, YoDa, Patience, Snute, Jjakji
WCS NA Season 2 2014 - Ro8 - loss to Hyun vs WCS EU Season 3 Finals - Ro8 - Jaedong, loss to Maru
IPL 4 - Top 8 - Squirtle, MC, Puma, loss to aLive, loss to MMA IEM Shanghai - Top 8 - HyuN, loss to Revival vs IPL 4 - Top 4 - loss to MKP, Polt, Stephano, loss to Squirtle
DH Winter 2014 - Top 6 - MMA, Snute, loss to Jjakji, loss to Impact, loss to ForGG, loss to Taeja MLG Spring Championship 2012 - Top 8 - No one noteworthy vs MLG Anaheim - 2nd - loss to Rain, Naniwa, DRG, Ganzi, Boxer, loss to Mvp
WCS NA Season 1 2014 - Ro8 - Bomber, loss to Revival vs DH Winter 2014 - Top 8 - Snute, loss to Polt, loss to Jjakji, Patience, loss to Jjakji
DH Winter 2013 - Top 8 - loss to Life, loss to JYP, loss to MMA, StarDust, HyuN, HerO, loss to Patience vs GSL November 2011 - Ro8 - MC, Nestea, Leenock (Bo1s), loss to Oz
GSL Season 1 2012 - Ro8 - GuMiho, Oz twice, loss to aLive DH Winter 2013 - Top 6 - loss to Life, loss to JYP, Polt, StarDust, Patience, loss to Taeja, loss to Patience vs Blizzcon 2013 - Top 8 - aLive, loss to sOs MLG Spring Arena 2012 - Top 6 - DRG, Symbol, loss to viOLet, loss to MC IEM Sao Paulo - Top 8 - herO, loss to Jjakji
Polt's WCS 2015 was left over.
#4 | MC, The Exemplar
Achievements: Tier 1: GSL Open 3 - 1st GSL March 2011 - 1st GSL WC - Top 4 GSL Season 3 2012 - 2nd OSL - 3rd MLG Winter Championship 2013 - 4th WCS EU Season 2 2013 - 2nd WCS EU Season 3 2013 - 2nd WCS EU Season 1 2014 - 1st
Tier 2: NASL 1 - 2nd MLG Orlando - 2nd MLG Spring Arena 2 - 4th Red Bull Austin - 1st HSC IX - 2nd
There are a multitude of things you can say about MC. He has the longest streak of consistency of any player in the world. He has never fallen out of the top tier of SC2 competition. He is the most traveled player of any SC2 player in the world. He has the most prize money earned of any SC2 gamer. He has played on a KeSPA team, an ESF team, and was one of the first to be on a solo sponsorship. He moved to Europe and created his own team house, then moved back to Korea. Many of the greatest ceremonies in SC2 were done by MC. He was one of the first Koreans to speak English and reach out to the foreign community. Even looking at his championships, he’s won 2 GSLs, multiple foreign tournaments and WCS EUs. There is nothing lacking in MC’s career. One time he even caught a thief with his bare hands.
After looking at all of those things as a whole I've come to understand one thing about MC. One thing that separates MC from the rest of the 14 greatest players of all time beyond his consistency. It is that MC understands the roles and responsibilities of what it means to be an icon, what it means to be a Champion, what it means to represent an entire scene. Unlike Polt, he never found balance in his life. Once MC went into SC2, he went all-in.
He flew everywhere, attended everything, competed against the best and won and lost. And through all of that thick and thin, he has always, always, always understood his role as an entertainer, his role in the community and his responsibility to his fans. It is that weight that may be what separates MC from all other players. And that is what makes MC the ideal Champion and that is what has made him one of the most beloved.
Play Style:
MC was the first player to understand the strength of the warp gate mechanic and the forcefield. He understood just how strong it was to be able to dictate the pace of every single battle and how to constantly maximize his attacks. Couple that with his incredible sense of mind games, his very strong control and his adaptability in every meta to pick up and learn new builds and create his own and you start to understand why MC has been around for so long when others have fallen off.
Perhaps the scariest thing about MC is that he ties it all together with macro builds. He rarely does them, but when he does you start to understand why so many players are caught off guard and play greedy against him. It is because his macro play is stellar. He doesn't have the pure refinement of strategy or control like Zest or Parting, but he has arguably some of the best on the fly thinking of any protoss player out there and it’s why some of the best MC games are him being outmatched and having to make a comeback. Because it showcases his incredibly creative reactions to solving problems, similar in many ways to Polt. It is a very unappreciated facet of his game as he has been pigeonholed as the master of all-ins for much of his career, when he has consistently proven that he can win anytime, anywhere.
Difference between MC and Polt
This one was thankfully not nearly as close as Polt vs MMA so I did not need to rely so much on extraneous x factors that aren't quantifiable. The first thing that should stick out to you is that Polt had 2.5 years of consistency. During those times he peaked for about an 1.5 years as a Top 3 terran (half a year during BL/infestor, latter half of 2013 to first half of 2014). MC has been a top 10 protoss for the entirety of SC2. That’s 4.5 years. In the first 2 years he was #1 protoss until he was arguably unseated by Seed. He spend the rest of WoL around the Top 7, shot back up to Top 5 briefly around the beginning of HotS and has generally been around Top 10 protoss ever since. In pure consistency alone he wins against every other player on this list. However there are the peaks and the paths to consider, so here it is.
MC Tier 1: GSL Open 3 - 1st - July, MKP, Jinro, TSL_Rain GSL March 2011 - 1st - July, San, July (bad format) GSL WC - Top 4 - Anypro, loss to MKP GSL Season 3 2012 - 2nd - MKP, Squirtle, Taeja, DRG, loss to Seed OSL - 3rd - Flying, loss to DRG, Last MLG Winter Championship 2013 - 4th - herO, Mvp, Bomber, loss to Life, loss to INnoVation WCS EU Season 2 2013 - 2nd - MMA, loss to duckdeok WCS EU Season 3 2013 - 2nd - Genius, loss to MMA WCS EU Season 1 2014 - 1st - Naniwa, Stardust, jjakji, MMA
Tier 2: NASL 1 - 2nd - Boxer, Sen, loss to Puma MLG Orlando - 2nd - HerO, Puma, MKP, Idra, TheSTC MLG Spring Arena 2 - 4th - MMA, Ganzi, loss to Stephano, DRG, Polt, loss to Symbol Red Bull Austin - 1st - Huk, Stephano, Bomber HSC IX - 2nd - jjakji, Dayshi, loss to Taeja
Tier 3: MLG Columbus - loss to Idra, Thorzain, Moon, Naniwa, Idra, loss to Losira IEM WC 2012 - viOLet, Puma NASL 3 - 3rd - Puma, loss to Stephano, Ret ASUS ROG Summer 2012 - loss to Taeja IEM Shanghai - 4th - Jaedong, aLive, loss to Revival RB NY - 4th - Snute, HyuN, loss to PartinG, loss to Scarlett DH Valencia - 2nd - Bomber, VortiX, Leenock, loss to Sacsri
Tier 4: HSC IV - 1st - loss to MKP, JYP, Sound IEM Cologne - 2nd - loss to Puma IEM Sao Paulo - 2nd - jjakji, loss to herO
Polt Tier 1: GSL Super Tournament - 1st - HuK, Alicia, TOP, MMA GSL August 2011 - Top 4 - MMA, Keen, loss to TOP NASL Season 4 2012 - 3rd - Huk, DRG, aLive, loss to HerO IPL 5 - 3rd - YoDa, Creator, loss to Leenock, Sniper, Bomber, loss to viOLet WCS NA Season 2 2013 - 1st - loss to Taeja, Alicia, Jim, Oz, Taeja, Jaedong WCS NA Season 3 2013 - 1st - Revival, ByuL, Heart, Oz, ByuL IEM Cologne 2014 - 2nd - StarDust, Classic, Rain, loss to HerO IEM WC 2014 - Top 4 - Naniwa, Dear, loss to herO WCS NA Season 2 2014 - Top 4 - MacSed, Jaedong, Heart, HerO, loss to Bomber
Tier 2: MLG Spring Championship 2013 - 1st - Naniwa, Dear, Naniwa, HyuN MLG Anaheim 2014 - 2nd - Scarlett, Stardust, viOLet, loss to Trap Red Bull Washington - 3rd - loss to Cure, PartinG, Scarlett, loss to Bomber
Tier 3: ASUS ROG Winter 2012 - 1st - Taeja, HerO, Stephano DH Stockholm 2012 - 2nd - Ret, loss to Thorzain Red Bull Atlanta - 2nd - loss to Bomber Red Bull Detroit - 1st - San, viOLet, Taeja
First off, their GSL Open Season 3 and Super Tournament wins were about the same. MC beat a Top 5 Z, Top 2 T, Top 3 T and Top 5 T. Polt beat a Top 5 P, Top 10 P, Top 5 TvT and Top 2 T to win his Super Tournament.
Next is MC’s GSL March win where he beat a Top 3 Z (July was peaking at that time), a Top 2 P (this is the closest San ever got to becoming #1 P player) and July again. In terms of sheer difficulty though it was about the same as Polt’s NASL 4 2012 run where he beat Huk, DRG and aLive. But I also added Polt’s IEM WC run to counter the prestige of a GSL.
Now we compare two Top4s. In MC’s Top 4 at GSL WC, he only beat a Top 5 P. This was equivalent to Polt’s August 2011 Top 4 run, though you could argue Polt’s was better because of the formats.
Next is MC’s silver run where he beat Top 5 T, Top 3 P, Top 5 T, Top 3 Z and lost to the best protoss at the time. This was close to Polt’s run at IPL 5 where he beat a Top 10 T, Top 3 P, Top 1 Z, Top 4 T (Bomber was peaking and you could have even called him Top 3 T at that point in time). Considering Polt’s run was under BL/infestor while MC’s run was during a slightly protoss favored meta, in terms of difficulty I favor Polt. But to counter the prestige I also added Polt’s Stockholm 2012 run where he got 2nd (though he only beat 1 notable player before losing to Thorzain.)
Weighed evenly are MC's OSL and Polt's WCS NA S2 2014. In the OSL, MC beat Flying, lost to DRG and then beat Last. Flying and Last are hard to rate since they both retired soon afterwards and KeSPA players were split away into different qualifiers at the time. So I decided to make this equal to Polt’s WCS NA Season 2 2014 Top 4 run where he beat Jaedong, Heart and HerO.
Next is MC’s MLG Winter Championship. It was when protoss was weak to terran and he beat a Top 5 P, Top 3 T, Top 5 T. This is similar to Polt’s IEM Cologne 2nd run where he beat StarDust, Classic and Rain during the blink era. In terms of difficulty and placing, Polt’s was higher so I added in MC’s lackluster HSC IV victory where he only beat 2 Korean players of note (only JYP cracked Top 10).
Comparing WCS EU and AM is somewhat difficult. In MC’s WCS EU Season 2 run he beat MMA before losing to duckdeok. The rest wasn’t noteable so I compared it to Polt’s WCS NA Season 3 victory over a Top 10 Z, Top 5 Z (or close to it), Heart (again a player hard to rate), Oz (Top 10 P, he was peaking around this time) and ByuL again. To balance the difficulty and prestige I added in MC’s NASL runner up where he beat Boxer and Sen before losing to Puma.
MC’s WCS EU Season 1 2014 run was the equivalent of Polt’s WCS NA Seas 2 2013 run. MC beat the best Europe had to offer. Polt beat close to the best of NA’s competition. In terms of pure strength Polt’s was probably favored considering Taeja was a Top 3 T and Jaedong was a Top 2 Z.
MC’s EU Season 3 2013 run was okay. He beat Genius, but lost to MMA. If you add in prestige it’s about the same as Polt’s MLG Anaheim 2nd place as Polt beat more notable players to get 2nd.
Next is MC’s MLG Orlando run where he beat a Top 5 P, Top 5 T (Puma was only ever top 5 in foreign events), Top 5 again and a Top 10 T (This was one of TheSTC’s peaks). This was about the same in terms of difficulty as 3 of Polt’s Red Bull Runs: Washington, Atlanta and Detroit.
Now that we’ve come this far, look at Polt’s remaining achievements:
HSC IX - 2nd - Jjakji, Dayshi, loss to Taeja MLG Columbus - 3rd - loss to Idra, Thorzain, Moon, Naniwa, Idra, loss to Losira IEM WC 2012 - 1st - viOLet, Puma NASL 3 - 3rd - Puma, loss to Stephano, Ret ASUS ROG Summer 2012 - loss to Taeja IEM Shanghai - 4th - Jaedong, aLive, loss to Revival RB NY - 4th - Snute, Hyun, loss to Parting, loss to Scarlett DH Valencia - 2nd - Bomber, VortiX, Leenock, loss to Sacsri IEM Cologne - 2nd - loss to Puma MLG Spring Arena 2 - 4th - MMA, Ganzi, loss to Stephano, DRG, Polt, loss to Symbol IEM Sao Paulo - 2nd - jjakji, loss to herO Red Bull Austin - 1st - Huk, Stephano, Bomber
Even if you thought some of the choices were Polt favored before, in the end MC has 12 more major tournament runs compared to Polt’s remaining 2. In sheer volume of work, MC is just shoulders above Polt. And we didn't even touch upon MC’s innovations to the protoss race and how those factor in for his overall greatness.
#3 | Taeja, Boy on the Mountain
Achievements:
Tier 1: GSL Season 4 2012 - Top 4 GSL Season 1 2013 - Top 4 WCS NA Season 2 2013 - Top 4 WCS Season 2 Finals 2013 - Top 4 DH Bucharest 2013 - 1st DH Winter 2013 - 1st IEM WC 2014 - Top 4 IEM Shenzhen 2014 - 1st IEM Toronto 2014 - Top 4 Blizzcon 2014 - Top 4 DH Winter 2014 - 3rd
Tier 2: MLG Summer Arena 2012 - 1st MLG Summer Championship 2012 - Top 4 DH Summer Open 2013 - Top 4 HSC VIII - 1st HSC IX - 1st DH Summer Open 2014 - 1st HSC X - Top 4
Tier 3: ASUS ROG Summer 2012 - 1st Dreamhack Open Winter 2012 - 2nd HSC VII - 1st ASUS ROG Summer 2013 - 1st Red Bull Detroit - 2nd DH Valencia 2012 - 1st
"I don't fear losing, the only thing I fear is not trusting my instinct. I know Ryu is not a strong character, if I wanted to win I could pick another character. I express myself during fighting and with Ryu I can fully express myself." – Daigo Umehara After his loss to Infiltration at EVO 2013
The expression of self has been a prevailing theme throughout humanity’s history. What is the self, what does it mean and what is the purest expression of self? For many of us it is what we do, why we do them and how we do it that defines much of what we are.
And that leads us to the conundrum of Taeja. What is Taeja? In my 2014 Blizzcon preview I noted that Taeja was a hard player to grasp. For the other players, there is a very real sense of struggle with their career paths, their attempts to stay at the top, to find a way to solve SC2 with the limited tools they have at their disposal.
Not so with Taeja. Back during the early 2012 era, Taeja was a mechanical monster. He had some of the most refined builds and could build up a massive army the likes of which resemble INnoVation and Cure today. Yet he too was struck with wrist problems like Mvp and just like Mvp, he dealt with it. Taeja completely revamped his style to be a defensive terran that could react to everything he saw, and with that information, make the right strategic decision every time.
It is especially astounding when you realize that this style is tested most in weekend tournaments, yet it was through those LANs that Taeja has risen to become one of the greatest players of all time. It seems impossible to even consider the idea that a player was able to make the right strategic decision in nearly every LAN he has participated in. In SC2 we often bandy about the term "throw" because we see a player get ahead only to make an unforgivable mistake that lets the other player capitalize and recover. This happens to even the best of players. Now ask yourself, when Taeja was in top form, did he ever throw a match? Did he ever get in a lead and throw away a match because of a mistake? I can’t think of any. I can think of matches he’s lost like Pigbaby, where he was completely thrown off and unable to read what Pigbaby was doing. I can think of matches where he was out positioned, out microed, out thought, but I cannot think of an example of when he threw a lead. What is Taeja?
Watching Taeja play someone is like watching someone challenge the ocean to a fist fight. Normal mortals get swallowed up and die. Only the truly divine players can match Taeja in his element, only the greatest have a shot of defeating a force of nature. Look at the list of Taeja’s greatest series. Every one of them has Taeja battling either a great of all time or a player in his prime. It is no mistake that only the greatest players can stare at Taeja’s strength and not flinch. Because Taeja watches you, looks at your play and reacts with the right answer and the right strategy and the right composition nearly every single time.
And that very essence of how he played could be seen in his out of game personality. Look at this list: Leenock, DRG, soO, MarineKing, INnoVation, Zest, Nestea, MMA, Polt and MC. You could tell that every single one of them wanted to win, every single one of them imposed the very essence of their identity into the game. Taeja? Most of the time, not even the casters and experts can analyze and dissect what actually allows Taeja to keep winning. He never did anything fancy: he just countered his opponents and made better decisions that compounded other better decisions. Outside the game, there were times when it looked like Taeja hardly cared that he had won. Most of the time he was wondering why he only kept winning 1st place prizes with $10,000 checks. When the Korean netizens criticized him and tried to goad him by saying he could never be a great player because he left Korea, Taeja just shrugged and said, "Yea." The only time, the only time I have ever seen Taeja actually show that he wanted to win a tournament was Blizzcon, where he wanted to make his brother proud.
Maybe that is why Taeja was Life’s greatest rival. Because Life is like a raging inferno. He consumes all in his path on his way to victory and Taeja is the exact opposite. A player of complete calm who stays on the defense and reacts to his opponent. Who finds out what they are doing and finds a perfect answer to beat them. That is what Taeja is like in his prime. And though he has essentially retired since Blizzcon (He has never participated in any international beyond IEM WC, which he had a seed for, I can’t help but think about the prediction I made in that 2014 preview.)
2) We will never see a defensive macro terran who wins games off of his consistent superior strategic decision-making like Taeja ever again.
What is Taeja?
He is a champion like no other in Starcraft. He is one of the greatest players to have ever played. He is the only one to have never been in a Korean LAN finals on this list. He is a player untouched by the pressures that come with the desire of becoming a champion, untouched the fear of failure. Taeja is a boy on the mountain. He is standing at the top and he sees all things with a clarity and vision that no other in SC2 has ever seen.
That is Taeja.
Playstyle:
Excerpt from 2014 Blizzcon Preview:
In a game as complex as SC2, thousands of decisions are made per game. It is impossible to make those split second decisions every time which is why players practice anywhere between 8-12 hours a day. And it is in practice where we learn what is optimal, what to do in any instant so that our play is as sharp as possible and we can focus mentally on other aspects of the game. Now imagine how many decisions have to be made per series. How many deviations you have to make per decision based on the player. How many series you play per tournament. How many times you have to come up with off the wall instant reactions to situations you have never seen before despite having played hundreds or thousands of hours previous.
It is in this arena, this chaos that Taeja thrives. Because at each juncture, at each moment, Taeja continues to make the right decisions and the right moves every time. It is that consistency, that intelligence that has made Taeja one of the greatest to have ever played. It is why when terrans are given a choice between playing like Taeja or playing like INnoVation, they all flock to INnoVation. INnoVation simplifies the equation. Here is the build order. You start attacking at this moment and never stop attacking. At this moment you pull the SCVs and you either win or lose. In order to play like Taeja, you have to to think constantly, unendingly, where do I scan, what do I scan, what do I build, when do I build it, how do I react to this composition, how do I defend, where do I move my units. Even one mistake, one bad decision will cost you the game.
Yet Taeja does this every time he plays in the booth, in every game, in every series. Against INnoVation, the greatest mechanical terran of that time, he turned the game into a massive complex game of economic and tactical chess and came out on top. Against Rain, a player known as a fortress of defense, he created an iron curtain that allowed Rain no chance to react, to counter Taeja's moves. Against Zest he turned small mistakes into landslide victories. Now imagine doing this against not just three of the best players in the world, but nearly all of them over almost 3 years with constantly shifting metas, maps, players, and styles. And that is what puts Taeja on a plane on his own. Taeja sees exactly one move ahead of nearly every game he's played. The right move. When you take all of that into account, you start to understand the enormity of Taeja's understanding, consistency, and strategic vision.
Difference between Taeja and MC:
This was a very interesting one. When I first made this list and used the eye test, Taeja was actually much further down the list (just above Zest). After all he has never won a preparation format like WCS or GSL. He’s had a few deep runs but a large amount of his work was done in the foreign scene. Then I added MC’s longer consistency of 4.5 years against Taeja’s 2.5 years. MC was the best protoss for 1.5 years earlier, but Taeja was the best terran for 1.5 years in HotS in a harder time. In terms of peak, I favor Taeja, but again there is that consistency, the prestige and the innovation. While I did something similar to ranking both Polt and Nestea over MMA, this is much more extreme than that. So how can I say that Taeja is better than MC, let alone someone like Polt or MMA?
First look at the list of achievements:
Taeja Tier 1: GSL Season 4 2012 - Top 4 - Mvp, loss to Rain, DRG, Polt, Leenock, loss to Life GSL Season 1 2013 - Top 4 - loss to INnoVation, Bomber, DRG, Soulkey, loss to RorO WCS NA Season 2 2013 - Top 4 - Polt, aLive, loss to Polt WCS Season 2 Finals 2013 - Top 4 - INnoVation, duckdeok, Rain, loss to Bomber DH Bucharest 2013 - 1st - YugiOh, sOs, Life, INnoVation DH Winter 2013 - 1st - INnoVation, sOs, ForGG, HerO, MMA, Life, Life again IEM WC 2014 - Top 4 - StarDust, Life, lost to sOs IEM Shenzhen 2014 - 1st - MMA, Life, Zest, Jaedong, Solar IEM Toronto 2014 - Top 4 - Zest, Bunny, viOLet, loss to Flash Blizzcon 2014 - Top 4 - soO, INnoVation, loss to Life DH Winter 2014 - 3rd - San, Bunny, loss to Leenock, loss to Life, San, Polt, Jjakji, loss to Life
Tier 2: MLG Summer Arena 2012 - 1st - Ganzi, Losira, First, Alicia MLG Summer Championship 2012 - Top 4 - Ryung, loss to Crank DH Summer Open 2013 - Top 4 - GuMiho, loss to Jaedong HSC VIII - 1st - Symbol, HerO, Symbol, HyuN HSC IX - 1st - loss to Snute, Snute, Jaedong, Scarlett, MC DH Summer Open 2014 - 1st - Patience, Jaedong, HerO HSC X - Top 4 - YoDa, MC, Snute, loss to Flash
Tier 3: ASUS ROG Summer 2012 - 1st - HerO, ForGG, MC Dreamhack Open Winter 2012 - 2nd - Stephano, Thorzain, Nerchio, loss to HerO HSC VII - 1st - Stephano, TLO, Snute ASUS ROG Summer 2013 - 1st - HyuN, Alicia, San Red Bull Detroit - 2nd - StarDust, loss to Polt DH Valencia 2012 - 1st - Grubby, Stephano, ForGG
MC Tier 1: GSL Open 3 - 1st - July, MKP, Jinro, TSL_Rain GSL March 2011 - 1st - July, San, July (bad format) GSL WC - Top 4 - Anypro, loss to MKP GSL Season 3 2012 - 2nd - MKP, Squirtle, Taeja, DRG, loss to Seed OSL - 3rd - Flying, loss to DRG, Last MLG Winter Championship 2013 - 4th - herO, Mvp, Bomber, loss to Life, loss to INnoVation WCS EU Season 2 2013 - 2nd - MMA, loss to duckdeok WCS EU Season 3 2013 - 2nd - Genius, loss to MMA WCS EU Season 1 2014 - 1st - Naniwa, Stardust, jjakji, MMA
Tier 2: NASL 1 - 2nd - Boxer, Sen, loss to Puma MLG Orlando - 2nd - HerO, Puma, MKP, Idra, TheSTC MLG Spring Arena 2 - 4th - MMA, Ganzi, loss to Stephano, DRG, Polt, loss to Symbol Red Bull Austin - 1st - Huk, Stephano, Bomber HSC IX - 2nd - jjakji, Dayshi, loss to Taeja
Tier 3: MLG Columbus - loss to Idra, Thorzain, Moon, Naniwa, Idra, loss to Losira IEM WC 2012 - viOLet, Puma NASL 3 - 3rd - Puma, loss to Stephano, Ret ASUS ROG Summer 2012 - loss to Taeja IEM Shanghai - 4th - Jaedong, aLive, loss to Revival RB NY - 4th - Snute, HyuN, loss to PartinG, loss to Scarlett DH Valencia - 2nd - Bomber, VortiX, Leenock, loss to Sacsri
Tier 4: HSC IV - 1st - loss to MKP, JYP, Sound IEM Cologne - 2nd - loss to Puma IEM Sao Paulo - 2nd - jjakji, loss to herO
This is where I started to balance things out. In GSL Open MC beat a Top 5 Z, Top 2 T, Top 3 T, Top 5 T. In Taeja’s 2013 GSL run he beat a Top 5 T, Top 5 Z, Top 1 Z. I then added in his Red Bull 2nd place to even out the prestige as in terms of difficulty Taeja’s run in 2013 was harder than MC’s run in 2010.
Next is MC’s March GSL win. He beat a Top 3 Z, Top 2 P, Top 3 Z. I compared this to Taeja’s Top 4 2012 run. He beat Top 1 T, Top 3 Z, Top 3 T, Top 2 Z. In sheer numbers MC again had the harder path. So I then added in Taeja’s ASUS Rog Summer to make up the difference in prestige (though Taeja’s opponent list now dwarf’s MC’s).
Now onto two tournaments with paltry opponents. In MC's GSL WC, he only beat one good player, a Top 5 P. This is similar to Taeja's WCS NA S2 where he beat only Polt and aLive.
After that is MC’s second place at GSL Season 3. He beat a Top 5 T, Top 3 P, Top 3 T, Top 2 Z and then lost. This is similar to Taeja’s Winter 2013 run. He beat the Top 2 T (Though some say INnoVation was better than Taeja at the time), Top 5 P, Top 10 T, Top 5 P, Top 10 T and a Top 4 Z twice. Given Taeja’s path of difficulty and his victory I felt this was fair.
Next is MC’s mediocre OSL run. Like I said before it’s hard to rate how good Flying and Last were but I just again overdid it on Taeja’s side and counted his Toronto Top 4 where he beat the best P and best player Zest.
Two Top 4 finishes even out: MC's MLG Winter and Taeja's WCS S2 Finals 2013. MC beat a Top 5 P, Top 3 T, Top 5 T. Taeja defeated Top 1 T, Top 5-10 P and Top 1-2 P. Again Taeja’s difficulty was harder.
Next I combined three of MC’s WCS EU runs. Look at them below; I decided that in terms of pure difficulty IEM Shenzhen was harder. There Teaja beat Top 5 T, Top 3 Z, the best player, Top 10 Z (And Jaedong plays better at lans), and Top 2 Z. In terms of sheer difficulty again Taeja wins, but to counter the prestige I added in Taeja’s DH Summer Open 2014 win.
They both had wins in small tournaments, and I equate MC's NASL 2nd place and Red Bull Austin with Taeja's MLG Summer 2012. Boxer was at best a top 5 T, Stephano was a Top 3 Z, Bomber was a top 5 T. However the format and prestige favor Taeja’s win over MC’s. But just for good measure I added in Taeja’s HSC 8.
Next is MC’s Orlando runner-up and Top 4 at Spring Arena. I equate this to Taeja’s Bucharest victory where he beat a Top 5 P, Top 3 Z and the Top 1 or 2 Terran. Taeja won on both prestige and difficulty.
You can keep going down the list as I’ve balanced it in that way, with the list being MC biased with Taeja having to equate it with harder paths (just as I did in the earlier balances). Here it is:
HSC IX - 2nd - jjakji, Dayshi, loss to Taeja IEM WC 2012 - 2nd - viOLet, Puma vs HSC IX - 1st - loss to Snute, Snute, Jaedong, Scarlett, MC
MLG Columbus - 3rd - loss to Idra, Thorzain, Moon, Naniwa, Idra, loss to Losira vs ASUS ROG Summer 2013 - 1st - HyuN, Alicia, San
NASL 3 - 3rd - Puma, loss to Stephano, Ret vs Dreamhack Open Winter 2012 - 2nd - Stephano, Thorzain, Nerchio, loss to HerO
Do Blizzcon and IEM double top 4 runs outweigh the following 7 tournament runs? Yes. Those two runs were way more difficult and the prestige was through the roof compared to a bunch of these smaller tournaments. In both prestige and content, Taeja won.
ASUS ROG Summer 2012 - 2nd - loss to Taeja IEM Shanghai - 4th - Jaedong, aLive, loss to Revival RB NY - 4th - Snute, HyuN, loss to PartinG, loss to Scarlett DH Valencia - 2nd - Bomber, VortiX, Leenock, loss to Sacsri HSC IV - 1st - loss to MKP, JYP, Sound IEM Cologne - 2nd - loss to Puma IEM Sao Paulo - 2nd - jjakji, loss to herO vs IEM WC 2014 - Top 4 - StarDust, Life, lost to sOs Blizzcon 2014 - Top 4 - soO, INnoVation, loss to Life
That then leaves this for Taeja:
Tier 1 events: DH Winter 2014 - 3rd - San, Bunny, loss to Leenock, loss to Life, San, Polt, Jjakji, loss to Life
Tier 2: MLG Summer Championship 2012 - Top 4 - Ryung, loss to Crank DH Summer Open 2013 - Top 4 - Gumiho, loss to Jaedong HSC X - Top 4 - YoDa, MC, Snute, loss to Flash
The list could be even larger if I hadn't balanced the runs so heavily in MC's favor. All of this just to ask you this one question: at what point does prestige outweigh difficulty and peak consistency and hard fought tournament runs? At what point does preparation format mean more than sheer number of victories against harder opponents? In my opinion with Taeja and MC we crossed the point long ago and we still ended up at 5 major tournament runs left for Taeja (and even more if I had exactly balanced out the scales instead of blatantly favoring MC).
There is a saying among the SC2 community called the Liquid Bias. It is the belief that the writers are inherently biased to Liquid players. Here is the truth: I have always tried to be biased against Taeja. I had put him below Zest in my first draft. But weight for weight, pound for pound, player for player, Taeja’s paths and achievements have constantly outshone things like prestige and preparation formats. My logic forced me kicking and screaming against this placing, but the hard facts remain. I spent tens of hours trying to find any excuse to put Taeja lower. I found none. Taeja’s volume of work is just too strong to ignore for arbitrary feelings like prestige. Now that I have thoroughly analyzed Taeja's entire career compared to the other greats of all time I finally understand what Coach Park meant when he said, “The hell kind of player was this?”
And he did it in a hugely imbalanced matchup against superior mechanical players by refusing to engage. That is what makes Polt brilliant.
What? Biased much? Matchup was not imbalanced. Nice article but we know what race you root for. Taeja #3...another Terran player on top of this list, why am I not surprised
thast like the last straw on taeja. how many more biased articles will TL write that has taeja highly overrated? wouldd love to hear again that its just the "authors opinion". this article just lost so much credibility.
I strongly disagree with TaeJa ahead of MC, and I guess a lot of debate will go on in this thread about that questionable choice. We're talking about a 3 times GSL finalist, two times champion, who has been relevant for 5 years. I don't think TaeJa's achievements, great though they are, can match that.
And he did it in a hugely imbalanced matchup against superior mechanical players by refusing to engage. That is what makes Polt brilliant.
What? Biased much? Matchup was not imbalanced. Nice article but we know what race you root for. Taeja #3...another Terran player on top of this list, why am I not surprised
I would like to hear how you thought TvP was balanced during early 2014. Taeja has won more premier tournaments than anyone and has a 65% win rate against the other 14 members of this list (given that Life and Mvp are 1 and 2 in either order which is guaranteed)
On April 26 2015 01:09 sc2chronic wrote: thast like the last straw on taeja. how many more biased articles will TL write that has taeja highly overrated? wouldd love to hear again that its just the "authors opinion". this article just lost so much credibility.
This entire article was devised and written by Stuchiu on his own. If you think some mysterious TL overlord influenced his decision to place Taeja at number 3 you're a nut case. Yeah I would have had him at 4 but Stuchiu has been great at explaining his criteria and sticking to it. This list has more credibility than any other power rank we've ever had
On April 26 2015 01:09 sc2chronic wrote: thast like the last straw on taeja. how many more biased articles will TL write that has taeja highly overrated? wouldd love to hear again that its just the "authors opinion". this article just lost so much credibility.
This entire article was devised and written by Stuchiu on his own. If you think some mysterious TL overlord influenced his decision to place Taeja at number 3 you're a nut case. Yeah I would have had him at 4 but Stuchiu has been great at explaining his criteria and sticking to it. This list has more credibility than any other power rank we've ever had
On April 26 2015 01:08 OtherWorld wrote: TaeJa #3? Dis is gonna be a cool thread (; Edit : in TaeJa's article, shouldn't "For the other plays, there is..." be "For the other players..."?
And he did it in a hugely imbalanced matchup against superior mechanical players by refusing to engage. That is what makes Polt brilliant.
What? Biased much? Matchup was not imbalanced. Nice article but we know what race you root for. Taeja #3...another Terran player on top of this list, why am I not surprised
I must have misremembered BL/infestor and Blink Era. Let me check those matches again.
On April 26 2015 01:09 sc2chronic wrote: thast like the last straw on taeja. how many more biased articles will TL write that has taeja highly overrated? wouldd love to hear again that its just the "authors opinion". this article just lost so much credibility.
Uh I directly addressed this, if you read the article.
On April 26 2015 01:12 [PkF] Wire wrote: I strongly disagree with TaeJa ahead of MC, and I guess a lot of debate will go on in this thread about that questionable choice. We're talking about a 3 times GSL finalist, two times champion, who has been relevant for 5 years. I don't think TaeJa's achievements, great though they are, can match that.
On April 26 2015 01:09 sc2chronic wrote: thast like the last straw on taeja. how many more biased articles will TL write that has taeja highly overrated? wouldd love to hear again that its just the "authors opinion". this article just lost so much credibility.
This entire article was devised and written by Stuchiu on his own. If you think some mysterious TL overlord influenced his decision to place Taeja at number 3 you're a nut case. Yeah I would have had him at 4 but Stuchiu has been great at explaining his criteria and sticking to it. This list has more credibility than any other power rank we've ever had
On April 26 2015 01:28 Yorkie wrote: Stuchiu I WILL DEFEND YOUR HONOR even though you left Bomber and Parting off this list so you know it's real
How do you know they're left off? There's still 2 spots left and some people speculate a shared #1 or a player placed higher than 1 to transcend the list
On April 26 2015 01:28 Yorkie wrote: Stuchiu I WILL DEFEND YOUR HONOR even though you left Bomber and Parting off this list so you know it's real
How do you know they're left off? There's still 2 spots left and some people speculate a shared #1 or a player placed higher than 1 to transcend the list
haha don't patronize me Parting and Bomber don't belong ahead of Taeja or MC. Parting is closer I suppose but neither deserves to be that high based on his criteria imo
On April 26 2015 01:12 [PkF] Wire wrote: I strongly disagree with TaeJa ahead of MC, and I guess a lot of debate will go on in this thread about that questionable choice. We're talking about a 3 times GSL finalist, two times champion, who has been relevant for 5 years. I don't think TaeJa's achievements, great though they are, can match that.
The criteria forced me to put him that high.
for all we know you decided to base your criteria around taeja's achievements and strong points. this "criteria" excuse is bullshit; the title clearly states something else.
honestly id like to hear how herO didnt make the cut. going through your criteria he had as many if not more reasons to be included in the list.
now im going to see if youre gonna troll and have someone other than Mvp/Life in the top 2 just to spite us
On April 26 2015 01:12 [PkF] Wire wrote: I strongly disagree with TaeJa ahead of MC, and I guess a lot of debate will go on in this thread about that questionable choice. We're talking about a 3 times GSL finalist, two times champion, who has been relevant for 5 years. I don't think TaeJa's achievements, great though they are, can match that.
The criteria forced me to put him that high.
for all we know you decided to base your criteria around taeja's achievements and strong points. this "criteria" excuse is bullshit; the title clearly states something else.
honestly id like to hear how herO didnt make the cut. going through your criteria he had as many if not more reasons to be included in the list.
now im going to see if youre gonna troll and have someone other than Mvp/Life in the top 2 just to spite us
Look up herO's results and then claim he deserves to make the cut. Do even a fraction of the research Stuchiu did for this then come back and let's have a discussion. herO is almost certainly not even in Stuchiu's top 20 given that sOs, Parting, Bomber, Soulkey, etc didn't make it either. Who do you think herO has had a better career then than those guys, or anyone on this list for that matter?
For me it was never a question if Taeja was top 3... Bigger question is who is number 1 and 2. I hope Life. Anyways, I'm beginning to agree more and more with the list, only thing off for me is Rain's position and the lack of Parting in a top 15.
On April 26 2015 01:49 ejozl wrote: For me it was never a question if Taeja was top 3... Bigger question is who is number 1 and 2. I hope Life. Anyways, I'm beginning to agree more and more with the list, only thing off for me is Rain's position and the lack of Parting in a top 15.
Parting and sOs not being on when both of them owned Starcraft 2 for periods of time is just incorrect
On April 26 2015 01:12 [PkF] Wire wrote: I strongly disagree with TaeJa ahead of MC, and I guess a lot of debate will go on in this thread about that questionable choice. We're talking about a 3 times GSL finalist, two times champion, who has been relevant for 5 years. I don't think TaeJa's achievements, great though they are, can match that.
The criteria forced me to put him that high.
for all we know you decided to base your criteria around taeja's achievements and strong points. this "criteria" excuse is bullshit; the title clearly states something else.
honestly id like to hear how herO didnt make the cut. going through your criteria he had as many if not more reasons to be included in the list.
now im going to see if youre gonna troll and have someone other than Mvp/Life in the top 2 just to spite us
Look up herO's results and then claim he deserves to make the cut. Do even a fraction of the research Stuchiu did for this then come back and let's have a discussion. herO is almost certainly not even in Stuchiu's top 20 given that sOs, Parting, Bomber, Soulkey, etc didn't make it either. Who do you think herO has had a better career then than those guys, or anyone on this list for that matter?
On April 26 2015 01:09 sc2chronic wrote: thast like the last straw on taeja. how many more biased articles will TL write that has taeja highly overrated? wouldd love to hear again that its just the "authors opinion". this article just lost so much credibility.
This entire article was devised and written by Stuchiu on his own. If you think some mysterious TL overlord influenced his decision to place Taeja at number 3 you're a nut case. Yeah I would have had him at 4 but Stuchiu has been great at explaining his criteria and sticking to it. This list has more credibility than any other power rank we've ever had
On April 26 2015 01:50 SC2John wrote: Welp top 2 are pretty obvious :p.
Though as much as I want to raise Mvp as the greatest SC2 player of all time, he's been irrelevant for 3 years now....
Mvp was relevant for parts of wcs in 2013. i'd say 2 years or so. His feats are different though.
I think Life is pretty close right now, and a few more victories will make him the best, but the 2012 runs Mvp made.... They're just a demonstration of some weird skill only a few people that have played BW/SC2 have had.
On April 26 2015 01:49 ejozl wrote: For me it was never a question if Taeja was top 3... Bigger question is who is number 1 and 2. I hope Life. Anyways, I'm beginning to agree more and more with the list, only thing off for me is Rain's position and the lack of Parting in a top 15.
Parting and sOs not being on when both of them owned Starcraft 2 for periods of time is just incorrect
sOs never owned Starcraft haha. He did well in GSL season 1 2013. Then he won Blizzcon and got 2nd at Red Bull. Then a few months later he won IEM.
On April 26 2015 01:49 ejozl wrote: For me it was never a question if Taeja was top 3... Bigger question is who is number 1 and 2. I hope Life. Anyways, I'm beginning to agree more and more with the list, only thing off for me is Rain's position and the lack of Parting in a top 15.
Parting and sOs not being on when both of them owned Starcraft 2 for periods of time is just incorrect
Whether Taeja deserves to be 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5, the most jarring thing about the criteria is not having a separate tier for the hardest tourneys. Equating a regular IEM or DH, Blizzard tier or not, with a GSL just feels wrong.
On April 26 2015 02:04 calh wrote: Whether Taeja deserves to be 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5, the most jarring thing about the criteria is not having a separate tier for the hardest tourneys. Equating a regular IEM or DH, Blizzard tier or not, with a GSL just feels wrong.
Yeah I can't help thinking that GSL should have been a tier on its own.
On April 26 2015 01:49 ejozl wrote: For me it was never a question if Taeja was top 3... Bigger question is who is number 1 and 2. I hope Life. Anyways, I'm beginning to agree more and more with the list, only thing off for me is Rain's position and the lack of Parting in a top 15.
Parting and sOs not being on when both of them owned Starcraft 2 for periods of time is just incorrect
When did sOs own SC2 for more than a weekend?
when did any player own sc2 for more than a weekend?
On April 26 2015 01:19 SuperHofmann wrote: Taeja top 3 without a single korean title, totally undeserved imho
Hoping for Life top 1
Taeja's still good, just overhyped on liquid because it is their horse. There's never been a period in Starcraft where taeja was the defacto best player in the world like how life is now, or how innovation was in early HotS. He won a few dreamhacks where only he and hyun were the only players ever in the GSL, big deal.
On April 26 2015 01:49 ejozl wrote: For me it was never a question if Taeja was top 3... Bigger question is who is number 1 and 2. I hope Life. Anyways, I'm beginning to agree more and more with the list, only thing off for me is Rain's position and the lack of Parting in a top 15.
Parting and sOs not being on when both of them owned Starcraft 2 for periods of time is just incorrect
When did sOs own SC2 for more than a weekend?
when did any player own sc2 for more than a weekend?
On April 26 2015 01:49 ejozl wrote: For me it was never a question if Taeja was top 3... Bigger question is who is number 1 and 2. I hope Life. Anyways, I'm beginning to agree more and more with the list, only thing off for me is Rain's position and the lack of Parting in a top 15.
Parting and sOs not being on when both of them owned Starcraft 2 for periods of time is just incorrect
When did sOs own SC2 for more than a weekend?
when did any player own sc2 for more than a weekend?
On April 26 2015 02:04 calh wrote: Whether Taeja deserves to be 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5, the most jarring thing about the criteria is not having a separate tier for the hardest tourneys. Equating a regular IEM or DH, Blizzard tier or not, with a GSL just feels wrong.
but remember, the list is not about "the greatest players of all time", even though its titled "the greatest players of all time".
On April 26 2015 02:04 calh wrote: Whether Taeja deserves to be 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5, the most jarring thing about the criteria is not having a separate tier for the hardest tourneys. Equating a regular IEM or DH, Blizzard tier or not, with a GSL just feels wrong.
Another thing to keep in mind is the tiering of tournaments. A basic guideline is Blizzcons(Only 2013+) > GSL > OSL/SSL/Kespa Cup/WCS (2012 KR)/WCG KR/Blizzcon 2011 > International Tournaments.
On April 26 2015 01:49 ejozl wrote: For me it was never a question if Taeja was top 3... Bigger question is who is number 1 and 2. I hope Life. Anyways, I'm beginning to agree more and more with the list, only thing off for me is Rain's position and the lack of Parting in a top 15.
Parting and sOs not being on when both of them owned Starcraft 2 for periods of time is just incorrect
When did sOs own SC2 for more than a weekend?
when did any player own sc2 for more than a weekend?
Many times?
no?
Mvp through the middle of 2011, Life between October 2012 and March 2013, Innovation between ~April and ~August 2013 are the ones that stand out to me. Arguments to be made for MC, Taeja, DRG and Zest.
On April 26 2015 02:04 calh wrote: Whether Taeja deserves to be 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5, the most jarring thing about the criteria is not having a separate tier for the hardest tourneys. Equating a regular IEM or DH, Blizzard tier or not, with a GSL just feels wrong.
Another thing to keep in mind is the tiering of tournaments. A basic guideline is Blizzcons(Only 2013+) > GSL > OSL/SSL/Kespa Cup/WCS (2012 KR)/WCG KR/Blizzcon 2011 > International Tournaments.
Yeah I was about to respond to those people that he did put Blizzcon/GSL/every Korean tournament ever ahead of international events
I thought that you might put Taeja at #2 so it's not as bad as I thought. I probably would have put him before NesTea if I were making the list personally.
On April 26 2015 01:49 ejozl wrote: For me it was never a question if Taeja was top 3... Bigger question is who is number 1 and 2. I hope Life. Anyways, I'm beginning to agree more and more with the list, only thing off for me is Rain's position and the lack of Parting in a top 15.
Parting and sOs not being on when both of them owned Starcraft 2 for periods of time is just incorrect
When did sOs own SC2 for more than a weekend?
Late 2013 to early 2014 sOs was the best player in the world, hands down, no competition then he fell off the individual league map for a while.
On April 26 2015 01:49 ejozl wrote: For me it was never a question if Taeja was top 3... Bigger question is who is number 1 and 2. I hope Life. Anyways, I'm beginning to agree more and more with the list, only thing off for me is Rain's position and the lack of Parting in a top 15.
Parting and sOs not being on when both of them owned Starcraft 2 for periods of time is just incorrect
When did sOs own SC2 for more than a weekend?
when did any player own sc2 for more than a weekend?
Many times?
no?
Mvp through the middle of 2011, Life between October 2012 and March 2013, Innovation between ~April and ~August 2013 are the ones that stand out to me. Arguments to be made for MC, Taeja, DRG and Zest.
On April 12 2015 05:04 Ardias wrote: Well, that's what I came up with: 10. Polt 9. Rain 8. Innovation 7. Nestea 6. Zest 5. MMA 4. MC 3. TaeJa 2. Mvp 1. Life
And we have top 10 of: 10. Rain 9. Innovation 8. Zest 7. Nestea 6. MMA 5. Polt 4. MC 3. Taeja 1/2. Life/Mvp without any doubt.
Damn I was close, but high underestimation of Polt failed me. Still happy that i was correct about the abscence of Parting in this list.
It would be nice if anyone complaining about TaeJa's positioning actually read the article. There are a good 3000 words with reasoning why he placed 3rd, so if you're going to disagree, it might help your case more if you put a tiny bit of effort it
On April 26 2015 02:21 Scarecrow wrote: MC made it in Korea and won more money overall. I just can't see how he can be behind Taeja, who was never that special in proleague or GSL.
After the whos number 1, it all comes down to personal opinion, theres not much of a difference between 10th and 3rd, everyone has very similar skills at the points in their careers we consider them their best
On April 26 2015 02:21 Scarecrow wrote: MC made it in Korea and won more money overall. I just can't see how he can be behind Taeja, who was never that special in proleague or GSL.
After the whos number 1, it all comes down to personal opinion, theres not much of a difference between 10th and 3rd, everyone has very similar skills at the points in their careers we consider them their best
I'd argue that if stuchiu based it on skill alone the list would look very different and that greatest doesn't equal best.
On April 26 2015 02:21 Scarecrow wrote: MC made it in Korea and won more money overall. I just can't see how he can be behind Taeja, who was never that special in proleague or GSL.
After the whos number 1, it all comes down to personal opinion, theres not much of a difference between 10th and 3rd, everyone has very similar skills at the points in their careers we consider them their best
I'd argue that if stuchiu based it on skill alone the list would look very different and that greatest doesn't equal best.
If skill was all there is to SC2, MarineKing and INno would be near the top, and Polt would be way lower. Just because you have skill doesn't guarantee results
On April 26 2015 02:32 Trizz wrote: Taeja over MC? 0 GSL wins vs 2 The Liquid Advantage.
Taeja at 3 is a joke.
Read the friggin article before you complain and then maybe you understand. Maybe you'll still disagree, but saying TaeJa at 3 is a joke? That's the real joke.
On April 26 2015 01:49 ejozl wrote: For me it was never a question if Taeja was top 3... Bigger question is who is number 1 and 2. I hope Life. Anyways, I'm beginning to agree more and more with the list, only thing off for me is Rain's position and the lack of Parting in a top 15.
Parting and sOs not being on when both of them owned Starcraft 2 for periods of time is just incorrect
When did sOs own SC2 for more than a weekend?
Late 2013 to early 2014 sOs was the best player in the world, hands down, no competition then he fell off the individual league map for a while.
Dear was the best player in late 2013 Blizzcon not included. Then sOs got 2nd at Red Bull to Parting. Then he made the ro8 of GSL season 1. Imo that doesn't make him the best player in the world hands down
On April 26 2015 02:21 Scarecrow wrote: MC made it in Korea and won more money overall. I just can't see how he can be behind Taeja, who was never that special in proleague or GSL.
After the whos number 1, it all comes down to personal opinion, theres not much of a difference between 10th and 3rd, everyone has very similar skills at the points in their careers we consider them their best
I'd argue that if stuchiu based it on skill alone the list would look very different and that greatest doesn't equal best.
If skill was all there is to SC2, MarineKing and INno would be near the top, and Polt would be way lower. Just because you have skill doesn't guarantee results
Well if skill was all there was to this list, herO and PartinG would for sure be on it and pretty high up.
The biggest thing for me is the lack of Parting in the top 15. He's been in 14-15 code S. He's won WCS, a redbull thing, WCG , HSC been in a code S final , two hotsix cup final and showed , in my opinion , when he is on top of his game the best protoss play ever. Almost no one could stop his soultrain, was one of the very first to play with templar spreaded out around the map. Yes this isn't Life's level of performance but it is definitly top 15 in my eyes.
But I enjoyed reading this and think it is some really good work! Thanks
On April 26 2015 02:21 Scarecrow wrote: MC made it in Korea and won more money overall. I just can't see how he can be behind Taeja, who was never that special in proleague or GSL.
After the whos number 1, it all comes down to personal opinion, theres not much of a difference between 10th and 3rd, everyone has very similar skills at the points in their careers we consider them their best
I'd argue that if stuchiu based it on skill alone the list would look very different and that greatest doesn't equal best.
If skill was all there is to SC2, MarineKing and INno would be near the top, and Polt would be way lower. Just because you have skill doesn't guarantee results
Number 2 will probably be Life, and first will be MVP. There'll probably be a disclaimer saying Life has the potentiality to surpass MVP so long as his wrist, wits and hunger continues; Or Life will be first place partly because of his potential to overcome MVP, the King of Wings and become the Heart of Hearts.
As an aside, I'd love it if there was an even bigger list or another one with different criteria. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading all of these :D
ITT: ppl that are easily convinced and delusional to agree with 3rd ranking. lets not mention in the article all the dips TaeJa had in his career. lets just blast MC for an illusion of fair comparison and call out "liquid bias" before-hand because deep inside, you know that there was in fact some bias involved.
On April 26 2015 02:46 sc2chronic wrote: ITT: ppl that are easily convinced and delusional to agree with 3rd ranking. lets not mention in the article all the dips TaeJa had in his career. lets just blast MC for an illusion of fair comparison and call out "liquid bias" before-hand because deep inside, you know that there was in fact some bias involved.
Everyone knows taeja isn't top 3 or even top 10, it's just an opinion piece, its whatever
On April 26 2015 02:21 Scarecrow wrote: MC made it in Korea and won more money overall. I just can't see how he can be behind Taeja, who was never that special in proleague or GSL.
After the whos number 1, it all comes down to personal opinion, theres not much of a difference between 10th and 3rd, everyone has very similar skills at the points in their careers we consider them their best
I'd argue that if stuchiu based it on skill alone the list would look very different and that greatest doesn't equal best.
If skill was all there is to SC2, MarineKing and INno would be near the top, and Polt would be way lower. Just because you have skill doesn't guarantee results
On April 12 2015 05:04 Ardias wrote: Well, that's what I came up with: 10. Polt 9. Rain 8. Innovation 7. Nestea 6. Zest 5. MMA 4. MC 3. TaeJa 2. Mvp 1. Life
And we have top 10 of: 10. Rain 9. Innovation 8. Zest 7. Nestea 6. MMA 5. Polt 4. MC 3. Taeja 1/2. Life/Mvp without any doubt.
Damn I was close, but high underestimation of Polt failed me. Still happy that i was correct about the abscence of Parting in this list.
Yea not putting Parting is actually really impressive in retrospect.
What is this nonsense Taeja at 3 WTF? Yeah who cares if he has a crap ton of titles he never won in Korea with the big boys just a bunch of less competitive European events. I guess Homestory Cup and Dreamhack are more prestigious than GSL absurd you put a 2 time GSL champion behind Taeja MC is much better. Your "Criteria" makes no sense in this situation Taeja should be 6th or 5th at best this is just a joke and has destroyed the credibility of this article.
On April 26 2015 02:55 InExcelsis wrote: What is this nonsense Taeja at 3 WTF? Yeah who cares if he has a crap ton of titles he never won in Korea with the big boys just a bunch of less competitive European events. I guess Homestory Cup and Dreamhack are more prestigious than GSL absurd you put a 2 time GSL champion behind Taeja MC is much better. Your "Criteria" makes no sense in this situation Taeja should be 6th or 5th at best this is just a joke and has destroyed the credibility of this article.
He dedicated about half the TaeJa section to what you're complaining about.
On April 26 2015 02:55 InExcelsis wrote: What is this nonsense Taeja at 3 WTF? Yeah who cares if he has a crap ton of titles he never won in Korea with the big boys just a bunch of less competitive European events. I guess Homestory Cup and Dreamhack are more prestigious than GSL absurd you put a 2 time GSL champion behind Taeja MC is much better. Your "Criteria" makes no sense in this situation Taeja should be 6th or 5th at best this is just a joke and has destroyed the credibility of this article.
His criteria is clearly explained if you read the article, and I don't see a hole in it. Do you?
On April 26 2015 02:55 InExcelsis wrote: What is this nonsense Taeja at 3 WTF? Yeah who cares if he has a crap ton of titles he never won in Korea with the big boys just a bunch of less competitive European events. I guess Homestory Cup and Dreamhack are more prestigious than GSL absurd you put a 2 time GSL champion behind Taeja MC is much better. Your "Criteria" makes no sense in this situation Taeja should be 6th or 5th at best this is just a joke and has destroyed the credibility of this article.
His criteria is clearly explained if you read the article, and I don't see a hole in it. Do you?
But accepting that is no fun! I'd rather look at the rank and complain without reading!
While I agree that Polt and MMA are incredibly close, I don't entirely agree with your assessment/pairing of tournaments. Notably, this stood out to me:
IPL 5 - 3rd - YoDa, Creator, loss to Leenock, Sniper, Bomber, loss to viOLet vs. GSL 2011 October - 1st - loss to Nestea, Happy, Mvp (Finals higher prestige) Iron Squid 1 - 1st - Jjakji, pre-Champion Life, loss to MaNa, aLive, Symbol
You really think that 3rd at IPL 5 beats out a first in a GSL? Would like to hear more about this. Even the players MMA beat along the way are more impressive in my opinion, notably an Mvp in his prime at TvT. Honestly, I think WCS 2015 (which you said were unable to pair with anything, but doesn't add that much in terms of victories against top opponents) and IPL 5 is a reasonable matchup with GSL and Iron Squid.
Furthermore, and I don't know if you addressed this anywhere, but your ranking seems to completely ignore team league results. Polt has essentially no results in this regard, while MMA was a team league monster at two seperate times (the driving force behind two GSTL wins and a big part of Acer's success in ATC. I think that easily pushes the comparison into MMA's favor.
On April 26 2015 02:55 InExcelsis wrote: What is this nonsense Taeja at 3 WTF? Yeah who cares if he has a crap ton of titles he never won in Korea with the big boys just a bunch of less competitive European events. I guess Homestory Cup and Dreamhack are more prestigious than GSL absurd you put a 2 time GSL champion behind Taeja MC is much better. Your "Criteria" makes no sense in this situation Taeja should be 6th or 5th at best this is just a joke and has destroyed the credibility of this article.
His criteria is clearly explained if you read the article, and I don't see a hole in it. Do you?
Yep the "HOLE" is you don't WIN a GSL you don't make top 5 that simple in my mind. Someone else already complained about it but putting Dreamhacks, and IEM's in the same boat as a GSL title is silly GSL needs to be its own tier and given more credit. So yeah following "his criteria" guess there isn't a hole and Taeja is properly placed but that still doesn't make it right at least imo. It is just silly cause if you ask any knowledgeable Starcraft player "Do you think Taeja is the 3rd best player ever?" I would venture to say 99% would say NO. He has 1 GSL top 4 finish in his life I'm sorry but I don't care how many IEM's,Dreamhacks, Homestory Cups, Asus ROG's you win if you don't win the hardest tournament you can't be top 5 all time.
On April 26 2015 02:46 sc2chronic wrote: ITT: ppl that are easily convinced and delusional to agree with 3rd ranking. lets not mention in the article all the dips TaeJa had in his career. lets just blast MC for an illusion of fair comparison and call out "liquid bias" before-hand because deep inside, you know that there was in fact some bias involved.
Everyone knows taeja isn't top 3 or even top 10, it's just an opinion piece, its whatever
Why shouldn't he be top 10.
Can't really argue with his achievements. I am pretty sure a lot of the top 10 isn't as decorated as TaeJa. He was fairly dominate in 2013 into 2014 halfway.
On April 12 2015 03:36 Zealously wrote: CAN YOU GUESS THE PLAYERS THAT WILL BE IN PART 2?
I'll buy you 3 months of TL+ if you guess right, 6 if you get the order right
Allright then! From 10 to 1 :
Polt Rain Taeja Zest INnoVation
MMA MC Nestea Life Mvp
That Nestea pushed back to the end of the rankings... I think he is the Savior of the Zerg race, he just codified how to play it (in the same way that Life did what JD did)
On April 26 2015 03:09 Gorlin wrote: While I agree that Polt and MMA are incredibly close, I don't entirely agree with your assessment/pairing of tournaments. Notably, this stood out to me:
IPL 5 - 3rd - YoDa, Creator, loss to Leenock, Sniper, Bomber, loss to viOLet vs. GSL 2011 October - 1st - loss to Nestea, Happy, Mvp (Finals higher prestige) Iron Squid 1 - 1st - Jjakji, pre-Champion Life, loss to MaNa, aLive, Symbol
You really think that 3rd at IPL 5 beats out a first in a GSL? Would like to hear more about this. Even the players MMA beat along the way are more impressive in my opinion, notably an Mvp in his prime at TvT. Honestly, I think WCS 2015 (which you said were unable to pair with anything, but doesn't add that much in terms of victories against top opponents) and IPL 5 is a reasonable matchup with GSL and Iron Squid.
Furthermore, and I don't know if you addressed this anywhere, but your ranking seems to completely ignore team league results. Polt has essentially no results in this regard, while MMA was a team league monster at two seperate times (the driving force behind two GSTL wins and a big part of Acer's success in ATC. I think that easily pushes the comparison into MMA's favor.
Ok Happy was a Top 5 TvT player, Mvp was Top 1 player. Jjakji was a top 10 T player by that point (he'd fallen off by that point), Life was maybe a top 20 Z (He didn't shoot up until months after this), aLive was a Top 5 T, Symbol was a Top 5 Z.
Yoda was a Top 5 T, Creator was a Top 3 P, Sniper was Top 1 Player (This is when he won his GSL,), Bomber was Top 5 T (Playing at Top 3 T level).
So MMA has: Top 5 TvT, Top 1, Top 10 T, Top 20 Z, Top 5 T, Top 5 Z. Polt had: Top 5 T, Top 3 P, Top 1, Top 5-3 T.
Pretty close right? Then you include the relative increased skill over time (comparing GSL to IPL), include that this was at the prime of Bl/infestor era and then remember that Iron Squid was mostly played online and I felt it was even.
Well, I haven't followed the scene closely in a long time, but when I think of greatest SC2 players of all time I think of MC, NesTea, Mvp, MKP, DongRaeGu. I also remember Naniwa being the best foreigner.
I think I stopped following SC2 around 2013, maybe the standard changed? I remember Life was considered pretty good, why isn't he on this list?
On April 26 2015 01:09 sc2chronic wrote: thast like the last straw on taeja. how many more biased articles will TL write that has taeja highly overrated? wouldd love to hear again that its just the "authors opinion". this article just lost so much credibility.
This entire article was devised and written by Stuchiu on his own. If you think some mysterious TL overlord influenced his decision to place Taeja at number 3 you're a nut case. Yeah I would have had him at 4 but Stuchiu has been great at explaining his criteria and sticking to it. This list has more credibility than any other power rank we've ever had
Oh I didn't include team leagues because I felt I couldn't discern things like impact a player had on their team, relative strengths of the teams they beat, coaches/organizational influence and then I'd have to list every single player they beat and then rank every player (many of whom had no history at all). If you did include team leagues, that could boost MMA, but since I didn't include it for any other player on the list, it would be objectively wrong to include it here just to boost MMA up.
On April 26 2015 03:20 LA_Morello wrote: Well, I haven't followed the scene closely in a long time, but when I think of greatest SC2 players of all time I think of MC, NesTea, Mvp, MKP, DongRaeGu. I also remember Naniwa being the best foreigner.
I think I stopped following SC2 around 2013, maybe the standard changed? I remember Life was considered pretty good, why isn't he on this list?
On April 26 2015 02:55 InExcelsis wrote: What is this nonsense Taeja at 3 WTF? Yeah who cares if he has a crap ton of titles he never won in Korea with the big boys just a bunch of less competitive European events. I guess Homestory Cup and Dreamhack are more prestigious than GSL absurd you put a 2 time GSL champion behind Taeja MC is much better. Your "Criteria" makes no sense in this situation Taeja should be 6th or 5th at best this is just a joke and has destroyed the credibility of this article.
His criteria is clearly explained if you read the article, and I don't see a hole in it. Do you?
Yep the "HOLE" is you don't WIN a GSL you don't make top 5 that simple in my mind. Someone else already complained about it but putting Dreamhacks, and IEM's in the same boat as a GSL title is silly GSL needs to be its own tier and given more credit. So yeah following "his criteria" guess there isn't a hole and Taeja is properly placed but that still doesn't make it right at least imo. It is just silly cause if you ask any knowledgeable Starcraft player "Do you think Taeja is the 3rd best player ever?" I would venture to say 99% would say NO. He has 1 GSL top 4 finish in his life I'm sorry but I don't care how many IEM's,Dreamhacks, Homestory Cups, Asus ROG's you win if you don't win the hardest tournament you can't be top 5 all time.
Stuchiu specifically compared tournaments to ones he believed were comparable. In the case of the GSLs, he took foreign tournaments Taeja won while beating relatively better players than MC beat on the path to winning his GSLs, and he rated those as equal. So yeah, he did rate GSLs more, and yet Taeja still came out ahead.
If you think GSLs are better than everything else, no matter what, no matter the caliber of players you face, then you run into problems. Jjakji won a GSL. Seed won a GSL. Are they better than Taeja? Are they better than Polt? (whose GSL Super Tournament victory often isn't counted on the level of the others.) Is Mvp indisputably better than Life because he won more GSLs? Is Roro better than SoO?
To add to this, Taeja has the best record in weekend tournaments of any pro player except perhaps Life, yet has won no GSLs. In comparing Taeja against ANY GSL champion, you will find that his record in weekend tournaments is head and shoulders above but his record in GSL is worse. At what point does the GSL start to push the other player over Taeja? Stuchiu thought about this, and decided that the caliber of players beaten on the path to a weekend tournament win needs to be significantly better to compare to a GSL, but can still compare. I assume (he didn't write it out) that he drew some line between quality of tournament runs to decide when they compared and when they did not. You have to make that decision at some point, and anyone claiming Taeja needs to be lower than 5th or even 10th needs to think about this. At what point do GSL victories cease to put another player ahead of Taeja?
On April 26 2015 01:01 stuchiu wrote: Part 4 will come out in a week. I wanted to put all 5 this week, but I literally broke the word limit.
When you told me that was seriously the first time I heard there was a word limit on a post, haha.
Whaaaaaattt???? There is a word limit for these?
I wanted to do an aggregate post for the last part so people could peruse the entire list at once, but that broke the word limit. Then I tried just 1-5 and that also broke the word limit.
Taeja top 3, Parting not top 15. List completely invalidated. Actually this entire installment should've been subtitled as the "Overrated Koreigners edition."
On April 26 2015 01:01 stuchiu wrote: Part 4 will come out in a week. I wanted to put all 5 this week, but I literally broke the word limit.
Wait no way this is the word limit on OPs, my 2014 thread OP was 1.6 megabytes long, this OP is only 64 kilobytes. I guess these fancy news posts might have a lower limit for some reason.
If you guys haven't realized it yet, Life and MVP will be considered in the top 2. They haven't been mentioned yet, but are in the graphic above the post ^-^
7 premier wins for Polt and 11 for Taeja, $350k in earnings for Polt and $275k for Taeja, and you have Polt's Super Tournament win while Taeja doesn't have a Korean tournament win
Taeja vs Polt is a complete toss-up for better career imo, even closer when you consider that Polt has 11 premier finals appearances to Taeja's 13, and 3 major tournament finals to Taeja's 0. (2 Lone Star Clashes and a Red Bull event)
And MC is top 3 to me since he was the only Protoss to have any real success before the immortal range buff in October 2011. (also the change in map design that nerfed 1/1/1) Similarly Mvp is #1 for more or less inventing macro Terran when everyone else was doing gimmicky all-ins.
Taeja #03 lol, If this article was made on the acer website maybe we'd have MMA on that position Polt #05 when all he did for 2 years was beating no name NA players and foreigners in international tourneys. Taeja above innovation, innovation #09, when he was so dominant for a set period of time that he was almost considered a bonjwa..
No inclusion of Stephano anywhere when he broke the game at least twice, in both wol and hots. Yeah, this ranking is biased at best.
This should really be moved to blogs now. When it started it seemed like an honest attempt to evaluate people, but now it is getting ridiculous with pointless phrases about greatness and absurd "common opinions" about supposed imbalancedness of the game in different "metas" (gosh, how I hate that word). I feel said for stuchiu who has put so much meticulous work into it while being doomed from the beginning by starting from completely misguided starting points and concepts.
On April 26 2015 03:53 YuiHirasawa wrote: Taeja #03 lol, If this article was made on the acer website maybe we'd have MMA on that position Polt #05 when all he did for 2 years was beating no name NA players and foreigners in international tourneys. Taeja above innovation, innovation #09, when he was so dominant for a set period of time that he was almost considered a bonjwa..
No inclusion of Stephano anywhere when he broke the game at least twice, in both wol and hots. Yeah, this ranking is biased at best.
Only zerg players look at stephano with the reverence he deserves tbh
On April 26 2015 03:53 YuiHirasawa wrote: Taeja #03 lol, If this article was made on the acer website maybe we'd have MMA on that position Polt #05 when all he did for 2 years was beating no name NA players and foreigners in international tourneys. Taeja above innovation, innovation #09, when he was so dominant for a set period of time that he was almost considered a bonjwa..
No inclusion of Stephano anywhere when he broke the game at least twice, in both wol and hots. Yeah, this ranking is biased at best.
Only zerg players look at stephano with the reverence he deserves tbh
Very well researched list, stuchiu. It's kinda sad to see people enraged because the only thing that matters to them in all sc2 is a number of gsl titles while ignoring everything else. Can't wait for MVP and Life write ups!
7 premier wins for Polt and 11 for Taeja, $350k in earnings for Polt and $275k for Taeja, and you have Polt's Super Tournament win while Taeja doesn't have a Korean tournament win
Taeja vs Polt is a complete toss-up for better career imo, even closer when you consider that Polt has 11 premier finals appearances to Taeja's 13, and 3 major tournament finals to Taeja's 0. (2 Lone Star Clashes and a Red Bull event)
And MC is top 3 to me since he was the only Protoss to have any real success before the immortal range buff in October 2011. (also the change in map design that nerfed 1/1/1) Similarly Mvp is #1 for more or less inventing macro Terran when everyone else was doing gimmicky all-ins.
actually jinro should probably get a lot of credit for inventing macro terran!
On April 26 2015 04:11 swag_bro wrote: I am just happy that Stephano is not on this list. He doesn't deserve.
swag_god has spoken
Seriously though I don't even think Stephano is top 20, it's funny seeing people complain about Taeja being so high, and then complaining that Stephano isn't here. Considering Stephano's results is just like a way weaker version of Taeja over a shorter period of time.
On April 26 2015 03:53 YuiHirasawa wrote: Taeja #03 lol, If this article was made on the acer website maybe we'd have MMA on that position Polt #05 when all he did for 2 years was beating no name NA players and foreigners in international tourneys. Taeja above innovation, innovation #09, when he was so dominant for a set period of time that he was almost considered a bonjwa..
No inclusion of Stephano anywhere when he broke the game at least twice, in both wol and hots. Yeah, this ranking is biased at best.
Only zerg players look at stephano with the reverence he deserves tbh
im a zerg player
If you ever write a goat list for defining the way the games played I hope he's #1
7 premier wins for Polt and 11 for Taeja, $350k in earnings for Polt and $275k for Taeja, and you have Polt's Super Tournament win while Taeja doesn't have a Korean tournament win
Taeja vs Polt is a complete toss-up for better career imo, even closer when you consider that Polt has 11 premier finals appearances to Taeja's 13, and 3 major tournament finals to Taeja's 0. (2 Lone Star Clashes and a Red Bull event)
And MC is top 3 to me since he was the only Protoss to have any real success before the immortal range buff in October 2011. (also the change in map design that nerfed 1/1/1) Similarly Mvp is #1 for more or less inventing macro Terran when everyone else was doing gimmicky all-ins.
actually jinro should probably get a lot of credit for inventing macro terran!
On April 26 2015 03:09 Gorlin wrote: While I agree that Polt and MMA are incredibly close, I don't entirely agree with your assessment/pairing of tournaments. Notably, this stood out to me:
IPL 5 - 3rd - YoDa, Creator, loss to Leenock, Sniper, Bomber, loss to viOLet vs. GSL 2011 October - 1st - loss to Nestea, Happy, Mvp (Finals higher prestige) Iron Squid 1 - 1st - Jjakji, pre-Champion Life, loss to MaNa, aLive, Symbol
You really think that 3rd at IPL 5 beats out a first in a GSL? Would like to hear more about this. Even the players MMA beat along the way are more impressive in my opinion, notably an Mvp in his prime at TvT. Honestly, I think WCS 2015 (which you said were unable to pair with anything, but doesn't add that much in terms of victories against top opponents) and IPL 5 is a reasonable matchup with GSL and Iron Squid.
Furthermore, and I don't know if you addressed this anywhere, but your ranking seems to completely ignore team league results. Polt has essentially no results in this regard, while MMA was a team league monster at two seperate times (the driving force behind two GSTL wins and a big part of Acer's success in ATC. I think that easily pushes the comparison into MMA's favor.
Ok Happy was a Top 5 TvT player, Mvp was Top 1 player. Jjakji was a top 10 T player by that point (he'd fallen off by that point), Life was maybe a top 20 Z (He didn't shoot up until months after this), aLive was a Top 5 T, Symbol was a Top 5 Z.
Yoda was a Top 5 T, Creator was a Top 3 P, Sniper was Top 1 Player (This is when he won his GSL,), Bomber was Top 5 T (Playing at Top 3 T level).
So MMA has: Top 5 TvT, Top 1, Top 10 T, Top 20 Z, Top 5 T, Top 5 Z. Polt had: Top 5 T, Top 3 P, Top 1, Top 5-3 T.
Pretty close right? Then you include the relative increased skill over time (comparing GSL to IPL), include that this was at the prime of Bl/infestor era and then remember that Iron Squid was mostly played online and I felt it was even.
I do not think your evaluation of the players at IPL 5 is accurate. Yoda was certainly not Top 5 T. Polt, Bomber, Ryung, Taeja, Inno, Mvp, and MKP were all certainly above him, and others like Keen, Supernova, Byun, ForGG, and Gumiho could all be argued above him as well, so he was top 10 at best.
Sniper number 1? Winning the GSL doesn't just place you at number 1 (although it does certainly pad your resume by a ton), and I don't think that anyone you would ask at the time would say Sniper was better than Life, even with the GSL win. He was a top 3 zerg. You'll note that he won GSL at IPL 5 where he placed 5th, below two other zergs in Leenock and Violet so clearly he was not a head and shoulders number 1 player in the world.
Bomber played well at that tournament to place 4th, but he was certainly not better than Ryung, Taeja, Inno, Mvp, and MKP and arguably others, not to mention that he wasn't even in Code S that season. So he was really top 10 T.
I agree with your Iron Squid evaluation. For GSL October, there is no mention of the other players MMA beat along the way. NaDa, Keen, asd, Clide. Clide beat the "second best TvT" player in the world Ryung (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/news-archive/271632-gsl-code-s-ro16-power-rank#three) to reach the quarters, so that's clearly worth something. He was already a top 10 Terran anyway, going off this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/news-archive/271632-gsl-code-s-ro16-power-rank where it also places NaDa just out of the top 10 players. Keen and asd were pretty meh though, top 20ish.
So MMA has: Top 5 TvT, Top 1, Top 10 T, Top 20 Z, Top 5 T, Top 5 Z, Top 10 T, Top 10 T, Top 20 T, Top 20 T
If you think I'm vehemently off with my player evaluations or if there is a reason for not considering those GSL players then tell me NaDa and Keen was group stage and asd just wasn't very good so I guess that could be a reason? Even so, it'd be left with.
MMA: Top 5 TvT, Top 1, Top 10 T, Top 20 Z, Top 5 T, Top 5 Z, Top 10 T
Then if we look at Polt's WCS 2015 as well, we can add in: Jim, Kelazhur, Firecake, Firecake, loss to Hydra, ForGG, Bunny, Hydra What do we get out of that? Bunny is Top 20 T, maybe higher? Jim, Kelazhur, and Firecake are not really high enough to be rank anything. ForGG is Top 5 TvT I suppose, I would need convincing to go higher than that despite what Aligulac thinks. Then there is Hydra who is a little hard for me to evaluate right now, but no higher than Top 5 Z. So this gives us for Polt
Polt: Top 10 T, Top 3 P, Top 3 Z, Top 10 T, Top 20 T, Top 5 TvT, Top 5 Z against MMA: Top 5 TvT, Top 1, Top 10 T, Top 20 Z, Top 5 T, Top 5 Z, Top 10 T
Those do look close to me.
Throw in team league records, which you didn't address before, and once again, I think MMA pulls ahead of Polt.
edit: oops, didn't see your other comment about team leagues, adding a response now
On April 26 2015 04:11 swag_bro wrote: I am just happy that Stephano is not on this list. He doesn't deserve.
swag_god has spoken
Seriously though I don't even think Stephano is top 20, it's funny seeing people complain about Taeja being so high, and then complaining that Stephano isn't here. Considering Stephano's results is just like a way weaker version of Taeja over a shorter period of time.
Nah. Stephano didn't have the mechanics, the correct mindset but above all the right nationality to be on this list. Teamliquid posters wish they were koreans so of course they will worship korean players. But I just want to point out how Stephano was Jaedong's favorite player, and how the Korean world was so excited to see him play in Korea. Again I agree that Stephano didn't have the right mindset to deserve to be on that list, but he had more brain than all the top 5 players combined.
Taeja may be good at splitting marines but he didn't redefined the meta of the game to the point of provoking successive nerfs. MVP did, Stephano did, and Life is still competitive despite playing the Zerg race at its weakest since the release. Taeja is just AI at faceless korean difficulty.
On April 26 2015 03:53 YuiHirasawa wrote: Taeja #03 lol, If this article was made on the acer website maybe we'd have MMA on that position Polt #05 when all he did for 2 years was beating no name NA players and foreigners in international tourneys. Taeja above innovation, innovation #09, when he was so dominant for a set period of time that he was almost considered a bonjwa..
No inclusion of Stephano anywhere when he broke the game at least twice, in both wol and hots. Yeah, this ranking is biased at best.
Only zerg players look at stephano with the reverence he deserves tbh
im a zerg player
If you ever write a goat list for defining the way the games played I hope he's #1
On April 26 2015 03:22 stuchiu wrote: Oh I didn't include team leagues because I felt I couldn't discern things like impact a player had on their team, relative strengths of the teams they beat, coaches/organizational influence and then I'd have to list every single player they beat and then rank every player (many of whom had no history at all). If you did include team leagues, that could boost MMA, but since I didn't include it for any other player on the list, it would be objectively wrong to include it here just to boost MMA up.
While I understand where you are coming from, I do think its incorrect to disregard it entirely when considering a list of the greatest players, not just the best individual league players. That's a good point that it would be unfair to include it only for MMA, but what other players on this list would be substantially impacted by it? There's DRG, who I don't think you would have bumped above Maru anyway. Then there's Innovation against Zest. Maybe that would have changed your relative ranking between them? It doesn't really seem like it though. There's Taeja, but he got 3rd anyway (which I agree with) and his team league performance wouldn't be enough to get him into the top 2 regardless. But for MMA and Polt, who you said was "by far, the most difficult decision to make in the entire list", the impact of team league results is clearly more meaningful in ranking the two.
On April 26 2015 04:11 swag_bro wrote: I am just happy that Stephano is not on this list. He doesn't deserve.
swag_god has spoken
Seriously though I don't even think Stephano is top 20, it's funny seeing people complain about Taeja being so high, and then complaining that Stephano isn't here. Considering Stephano's results is just like a way weaker version of Taeja over a shorter period of time.
Nah. Stephano didn't have the mechanic, the correct mindset but above all the right nationality to be on this list. Teamliquid posters wish they were koreans so of course they will worship korean players. But I just want to point out how Stephano was Jaedong's favorite player, and how the Korean world was so excited to see him play in Korea. Again I agree that Stephano didn't have the right mindset to deserve to be on that list, but he had more brain than all the top 5 players combined.
Taeja may be good at splitting marines but he didn't redefined the meta of the game to the point of provoking successive nerfs. MVP did, Stephano did, and Life is still competitive despite playing the Zerg race at its weakest since the release. Taeja is just AI at faceless korean difficulty.
That's Innovation you're thinking of. Taeja wins most of the time because he thinks well ingame in terms of army movement/positioning/army composition/decision making.
@Gorlin. So Nada and Keen actually fell off at the exact same time in that moment of 2011. So yea I didn't consider them noteworthy. Clide beat Ryung in a bo3, thats commendable, and yes Ryung was Top 2 TvT (Though I meant he was Top 2 in most of 2012, in 2011 I'd argue that Mvp, MMA, Polt, TOP and Happy all had him beat, possibly even Taeja).
I think we both agree asd wasn't good enough to be worth considering.
As for the power ranks, those PRs were done before the results, we get the benefit of seeing how everything turned out. Thats why I can say Nada/Keen had fallen off and weren't worth considering. Clide had intense problems ever moving beyond the ro16 his entire career, so I never considered him either, but its fair enough to say he was cracking somewhere between Top10-15.
As for IPL Sniper was only Top 1 player for that exact weekend for winning GSL. It was his peak performance and like I said before, there are differences in degrees. MC was still the best toss for early 2012, but anyone in the top 5 P could have taken him out while in 2011, the only one that could have maybe done it was Inca in his 2011 prime.
Now Bomber is a weird player. You can't use conventional rankings with him. I noted how erratic sOs was in the 15th bit, Bomber was even more erratic. The Bomber Law exists for a reasona nd it exists because for every hot run Bomber did he'd immediately mob out afterwards. In his case I'd say he was a Top 5 T at the time (He'd gotten top 4 at MLG fall just a few weeks before IPL) and his form hit Top 3 for that particular tournament. Then he fell off the face of the earth again.
On April 26 2015 03:22 stuchiu wrote: Oh I didn't include team leagues because I felt I couldn't discern things like impact a player had on their team, relative strengths of the teams they beat, coaches/organizational influence and then I'd have to list every single player they beat and then rank every player (many of whom had no history at all). If you did include team leagues, that could boost MMA, but since I didn't include it for any other player on the list, it would be objectively wrong to include it here just to boost MMA up.
While I understand where you are coming from, I do think its incorrect to disregard it entirely when considering a list of the greatest players, not just the best individual league players. That's a good point that it would be unfair to include it only for MMA, but what other players on this list would be substantially impacted by it? There's DRG, who I don't think you would have bumped above Maru anyway. Then there's Innovation against Zest. Maybe that would have changed your relative ranking between them? It doesn't really seem like it though. There's Taeja, but he got 3rd anyway (which I agree with) and his team league performance wouldn't be enough to get him into the top 2 regardless. But for MMA and Polt, who you said was "by far, the most difficult decision to make in the entire list", the impact of team league results is clearly more meaningful in ranking the two.
I essentially had no way to personally quantify how important the team leagues were overall. I actually think if I had included team leagues, Innovation could have been bumped over Zest. He is the best Team League player to have ever been in the history of SC2.
I'm pretty certain MMA would be the third best team league player to have ever been, but I'd have to create a system and see how it interacts with things that pushed Polt over the edge (like doing well in worse metas and having longer consistency). Since I didn't find an answer that satisfied me, I just didn't include it. It could be a mistake, but I couldnt in good conscious include a factor that I personally was unable to quantify in its importance of greatness.
On April 26 2015 04:53 LeviathanDK wrote: here is a fact for why you put Taeja as number 3.. this is a news for TL.. real life taeja and MMA would be switched around
On April 26 2015 04:11 swag_bro wrote: I am just happy that Stephano is not on this list. He doesn't deserve.
swag_god has spoken
Seriously though I don't even think Stephano is top 20, it's funny seeing people complain about Taeja being so high, and then complaining that Stephano isn't here. Considering Stephano's results is just like a way weaker version of Taeja over a shorter period of time.
Nah. Stephano didn't have the mechanic, the correct mindset but above all the right nationality to be on this list. Teamliquid posters wish they were koreans so of course they will worship korean players. But I just want to point out how Stephano was Jaedong's favorite player, and how the Korean world was so excited to see him play in Korea. Again I agree that Stephano didn't have the right mindset to deserve to be on that list, but he had more brain than all the top 5 players combined.
Taeja may be good at splitting marines but he didn't redefined the meta of the game to the point of provoking successive nerfs. MVP did, Stephano did, and Life is still competitive despite playing the Zerg race at its weakest since the release. Taeja is just AI at faceless korean difficulty.
That's Innovation you're thinking of. Taeja wins most of the time because he thinks well ingame in terms of army movement/positioning/army composition/decision making.
but seriously a bunch of you are idiots repeating the same "durrr Liquid bias Taeja never won a single game in Korea I heard"
Guessing ya'll didn't watch Taeja in IPL TAC. Guessing ya'll don't think about how he has won more Premiers than anyone else. Guessing none of you have seen him body GSL heavy hitters (in weekend events and sometimes in GSL remember he has actually made some Ro4s) over a period of 3+ years
On my GOAT list I had Taeja at 4 behind MC but I can see him at 3
On April 26 2015 03:22 stuchiu wrote: Oh I didn't include team leagues because I felt I couldn't discern things like impact a player had on their team, relative strengths of the teams they beat, coaches/organizational influence and then I'd have to list every single player they beat and then rank every player (many of whom had no history at all). If you did include team leagues, that could boost MMA, but since I didn't include it for any other player on the list, it would be objectively wrong to include it here just to boost MMA up.
While I understand where you are coming from, I do think its incorrect to disregard it entirely when considering a list of the greatest players, not just the best individual league players. That's a good point that it would be unfair to include it only for MMA, but what other players on this list would be substantially impacted by it? There's DRG, who I don't think you would have bumped above Maru anyway. Then there's Innovation against Zest. Maybe that would have changed your relative ranking between them? It doesn't really seem like it though. There's Taeja, but he got 3rd anyway (which I agree with) and his team league performance wouldn't be enough to get him into the top 2 regardless. But for MMA and Polt, who you said was "by far, the most difficult decision to make in the entire list", the impact of team league results is clearly more meaningful in ranking the two.
I essentially had no way to personally quantify how important the team leagues were overall. I actually think if I had included team leagues, Innovation could have been bumped over Zest. He is the best Team League player to have ever been in the history of SC2.
I'm pretty certain MMA would be the third best team league player to have ever been, but I'd have to create a system and see how it interacts with things that pushed Polt over the edge (like doing well in worse metas and having longer consistency). Since I didn't find an answer that satisfied me, I just didn't include it. It could be a mistake, but I couldnt in good conscious include a factor that I personally was unable to quantify in its importance of greatness.
Sure, I realize that it would have been extremely difficult to include those results in a quantifiable way, but you already established that you were considering intangible elements (adversity, balance, innovation, etc.) which are inherently decided arbitrarily. So I think it would be simple, and fair, enough to at least consider team leagues in an arbitrary way similar to that without having to necessarily consider every game played in every league.
On April 26 2015 03:53 YuiHirasawa wrote: Taeja #03 lol, If this article was made on the acer website maybe we'd have MMA on that position Polt #05 when all he did for 2 years was beating no name NA players and foreigners in international tourneys. Taeja above innovation, innovation #09, when he was so dominant for a set period of time that he was almost considered a bonjwa..
No inclusion of Stephano anywhere when he broke the game at least twice, in both wol and hots. Yeah, this ranking is biased at best.
Only zerg players look at stephano with the reverence he deserves tbh
im a zerg player
If you ever write a goat list for defining the way the games played I hope he's #1
I hope he's not because then the list would be wrong D:
On April 26 2015 03:09 Gorlin wrote: While I agree that Polt and MMA are incredibly close, I don't entirely agree with your assessment/pairing of tournaments. Notably, this stood out to me:
IPL 5 - 3rd - YoDa, Creator, loss to Leenock, Sniper, Bomber, loss to viOLet vs. GSL 2011 October - 1st - loss to Nestea, Happy, Mvp (Finals higher prestige) Iron Squid 1 - 1st - Jjakji, pre-Champion Life, loss to MaNa, aLive, Symbol
You really think that 3rd at IPL 5 beats out a first in a GSL? Would like to hear more about this. Even the players MMA beat along the way are more impressive in my opinion, notably an Mvp in his prime at TvT. Honestly, I think WCS 2015 (which you said were unable to pair with anything, but doesn't add that much in terms of victories against top opponents) and IPL 5 is a reasonable matchup with GSL and Iron Squid.
Furthermore, and I don't know if you addressed this anywhere, but your ranking seems to completely ignore team league results. Polt has essentially no results in this regard, while MMA was a team league monster at two seperate times (the driving force behind two GSTL wins and a big part of Acer's success in ATC. I think that easily pushes the comparison into MMA's favor.
could not agree more!
considering your facts and especially valueing gsl and gstl higher as well as including team league results i certainly would place MMA as number 3 of all time.
On April 26 2015 05:03 Darkhorse wrote: 2. MoustacheTerran 1. LiquidSucksBallsWithoutMe
but seriously a bunch of you are idiots repeating the same "durrr Liquid bias Taeja never won a single game in Korea I heard"
Guessing ya'll didn't watch Taeja in IPL TAC. Guessing ya'll don't think about how he has won more Premiers than anyone else. Guessing none of you have seen him body GSL heavy hitters (in weekend events and sometimes in GSL remember he has actually made some Ro4s) over a period of 3+ years
On my GOAT list I had Taeja at 4 behind MC but I can see him at 3
Durrr liquid bias.
way to generalize everyone. there are actually people who have read the article and gave good reasons why taeja shouldnt have been #3. but "DURR LIQUID BIAS" is all you see. youre just as bad as the people who do say that.
On April 26 2015 05:03 Darkhorse wrote: 2. MoustacheTerran 1. LiquidSucksBallsWithoutMe
but seriously a bunch of you are idiots repeating the same "durrr Liquid bias Taeja never won a single game in Korea I heard"
Guessing ya'll didn't watch Taeja in IPL TAC. Guessing ya'll don't think about how he has won more Premiers than anyone else. Guessing none of you have seen him body GSL heavy hitters (in weekend events and sometimes in GSL remember he has actually made some Ro4s) over a period of 3+ years
On my GOAT list I had Taeja at 4 behind MC but I can see him at 3
Durrr liquid bias.
way to generalize everyone. there are actually people who have read the article and gave good reasons why taeja shouldnt have been #3. but "DURR LIQUID BIAS" is all you see. youre just as bad as the people who do say that.
You're right. That was a generalization and I apologize for that
However, you can't deny that there are a number of posts in this thread that are "durr Liquid bias"
Also I think it's funny because you say people have done research and given good reasons against Taeja, but I just read all your posts in this thread. You aren't one of those people
Also I think it's kinda funny that people always assume that VOLUNTEER writers with 0 AFFILIATION WITH THE ACTUAL PRO TEAM have this natural "Liquid bias"
On April 26 2015 04:47 MASTERCAKES wrote: No Parting in the top 15 is brutal
This so much. And no sOs is also kind of weird, given how stuchiu said he would value Blizzcon winners very highly in part1. Leenock, MKP and Rain all got in without any of the big titles (Blizzcon, GSL, NSSL) and less high placements than PartinG overall.
Taeja was relevant far before he started winning tournaments. But I guess some of the newbloods are too young to remember the ESV weekly tournaments. Too young to remember the god years of terran, which existed because there was almost always room to push the terran skill ceiling higher. Yes, there are other good players outside of the 15 listed. But they were not nearly as consistent for as long of a period. Taeja never was as bad about slumping like bomber/mma/polt/marineking.
First off, this article doesn't make a personal attack on anyone's own top 15 list.
Second, and more important. Every. Article. Is. Biased. Objective writing doesn't exist in a context like this. Stuchiu as the writer has preferences for how the top 15 was selected, and that criteria is linked at the top of the post.
If you want to bash the article for getting players in the wrong order, or your favourite player not being on the list, then use that post with stuchiu's own criteria for what constitutes the best player of all time as the foundation for your argument agains't it.
edit: I take affront to MKP being on the top 15 at all, but it's not my article.
On April 26 2015 05:03 Darkhorse wrote: 2. MoustacheTerran 1. LiquidSucksBallsWithoutMe
but seriously a bunch of you are idiots repeating the same "durrr Liquid bias Taeja never won a single game in Korea I heard"
Guessing ya'll didn't watch Taeja in IPL TAC. Guessing ya'll don't think about how he has won more Premiers than anyone else. Guessing none of you have seen him body GSL heavy hitters (in weekend events and sometimes in GSL remember he has actually made some Ro4s) over a period of 3+ years
On my GOAT list I had Taeja at 4 behind MC but I can see him at 3
Durrr liquid bias.
way to generalize everyone. there are actually people who have read the article and gave good reasons why taeja shouldnt have been #3. but "DURR LIQUID BIAS" is all you see. youre just as bad as the people who do say that.
While this may be true, I disagree that anyone's arguments having been more compelling against Taeja's position than stuchiu's arguments in favor. Further, you have not been particularly conducive to a civilized discussion on the topic. And what's more, you seem to think that there is any way to create a ranking of this magnitude in an objective fashion, with objective criteria. There isn't, but I think stuchiu has done a good job making it clear precisely how he values different achievements. I have great respect for the people that take the time to do the same before proceeding to argue against stuchiu's ranking, but very few people have done him the courtesy of doing so.
On April 26 2015 05:03 Darkhorse wrote: 2. MoustacheTerran 1. LiquidSucksBallsWithoutMe
but seriously a bunch of you are idiots repeating the same "durrr Liquid bias Taeja never won a single game in Korea I heard"
Guessing ya'll didn't watch Taeja in IPL TAC. Guessing ya'll don't think about how he has won more Premiers than anyone else. Guessing none of you have seen him body GSL heavy hitters (in weekend events and sometimes in GSL remember he has actually made some Ro4s) over a period of 3+ years
On my GOAT list I had Taeja at 4 behind MC but I can see him at 3
Durrr liquid bias.
way to generalize everyone. there are actually people who have read the article and gave good reasons why taeja shouldnt have been #3. but "DURR LIQUID BIAS" is all you see. youre just as bad as the people who do say that.
Not really, he gives a reason to debunk the "durr liquid bias" in saying he has beaten koreans ect. However many of these posts are literally just "Taeja number 3 is dumb liquid bias bull shit" with no actual logic or facts to make their point. I am a big Taeja fan and personally think he deserves number 3, but I will listen to counter arguments, what I don't listen to, is the multitude of posts that don't use any logic or reasoning to back up their point.
On April 26 2015 05:03 Darkhorse wrote: 2. MoustacheTerran 1. LiquidSucksBallsWithoutMe
but seriously a bunch of you are idiots repeating the same "durrr Liquid bias Taeja never won a single game in Korea I heard"
Guessing ya'll didn't watch Taeja in IPL TAC. Guessing ya'll don't think about how he has won more Premiers than anyone else. Guessing none of you have seen him body GSL heavy hitters (in weekend events and sometimes in GSL remember he has actually made some Ro4s) over a period of 3+ years
On my GOAT list I had Taeja at 4 behind MC but I can see him at 3
The reason people keep saying Liquid bias is because it happens in every single ranking article Liquid has produced. I really love most of the articles the writers of this site put out, but I really can't take the rankings serious any more. I have written longer posts about it in the past but it's not really worth it.
On April 26 2015 05:03 Darkhorse wrote: 2. MoustacheTerran 1. LiquidSucksBallsWithoutMe
but seriously a bunch of you are idiots repeating the same "durrr Liquid bias Taeja never won a single game in Korea I heard"
Guessing ya'll didn't watch Taeja in IPL TAC. Guessing ya'll don't think about how he has won more Premiers than anyone else. Guessing none of you have seen him body GSL heavy hitters (in weekend events and sometimes in GSL remember he has actually made some Ro4s) over a period of 3+ years
On my GOAT list I had Taeja at 4 behind MC but I can see him at 3
The reason people keep saying Liquid bias is because it happens in every single ranking article Liquid has produced. I really love most of the articles the writers of this site put out, but I really can't take the rankings serious any more. I have written longer posts about it in the past but it's not really worth it.
It's Taeja bias, not liquid bias. I usually don't see TL overrating HerO or TLO to enormous degrees.
Have you ever considered that you might be underrating Taeja a little?
On April 26 2015 05:03 Darkhorse wrote: 2. MoustacheTerran 1. LiquidSucksBallsWithoutMe
but seriously a bunch of you are idiots repeating the same "durrr Liquid bias Taeja never won a single game in Korea I heard"
Guessing ya'll didn't watch Taeja in IPL TAC. Guessing ya'll don't think about how he has won more Premiers than anyone else. Guessing none of you have seen him body GSL heavy hitters (in weekend events and sometimes in GSL remember he has actually made some Ro4s) over a period of 3+ years
On my GOAT list I had Taeja at 4 behind MC but I can see him at 3
The reason people keep saying Liquid bias is because it happens in every single ranking article Liquid has produced. I really love most of the articles the writers of this site put out, but I really can't take the rankings serious any more. I have written longer posts about it in the past but it's not really worth it.
I think you're just seeing what you want to see, I know a lot of the higher up writers personally and they don't even like liquid players for the most part.
On April 26 2015 05:03 Darkhorse wrote: 2. MoustacheTerran 1. LiquidSucksBallsWithoutMe
but seriously a bunch of you are idiots repeating the same "durrr Liquid bias Taeja never won a single game in Korea I heard"
Guessing ya'll didn't watch Taeja in IPL TAC. Guessing ya'll don't think about how he has won more Premiers than anyone else. Guessing none of you have seen him body GSL heavy hitters (in weekend events and sometimes in GSL remember he has actually made some Ro4s) over a period of 3+ years
On my GOAT list I had Taeja at 4 behind MC but I can see him at 3
The reason people keep saying Liquid bias is because it happens in every single ranking article Liquid has produced. I really love most of the articles the writers of this site put out, but I really can't take the rankings serious any more. I have written longer posts about it in the past but it's not really worth it.
I understood some of the calls of liquid bias when he won player of the year or what not, however I really don't see it here. Third is about where I think he should go weighing his accomplishments(more Premier Tourny wins than ANYONE). This for me is why he deserves to be ranked highly. Innovation showed us that not any player can just leave Korea and win foreign tournaments, and many of those Taeja won had him consistently beating many high level players at the time. Had Taeja been first or even second, I could understand liquid bias, however I don't see this as some crazy act of bias at all.
On April 26 2015 05:03 Darkhorse wrote: 2. MoustacheTerran 1. LiquidSucksBallsWithoutMe
but seriously a bunch of you are idiots repeating the same "durrr Liquid bias Taeja never won a single game in Korea I heard"
Guessing ya'll didn't watch Taeja in IPL TAC. Guessing ya'll don't think about how he has won more Premiers than anyone else. Guessing none of you have seen him body GSL heavy hitters (in weekend events and sometimes in GSL remember he has actually made some Ro4s) over a period of 3+ years
On my GOAT list I had Taeja at 4 behind MC but I can see him at 3
The reason people keep saying Liquid bias is because it happens in every single ranking article Liquid has produced. I really love most of the articles the writers of this site put out, but I really can't take the rankings serious any more. I have written longer posts about it in the past but it's not really worth it.
It's Taeja bias, not liquid bias. I usually don't see TL overrating HerO or TLO to enormous degrees.
Have you ever considered that you might be underrating Taeja a little?
Yes I have. I'm not getting into this discussion again. The chances it will end up productive are very small. And it won't change the writer's bias.
My first reaction to this when reading the placements was this will be interesting. Read the comments everyone was freaking out about Taeja being top5 and this is coming from a Taeja fan I began to even speculate the credibility. After reading this thoroughly I now fully agree with your decision stuchiu! Wow I never looked at it the way you did it and it's amazing how factual you did this! I have to give you some major props man don't listen to all those who will hate and debate you got cold hard facts here! I'm now interested though Life or Mvp #1?
On April 26 2015 05:03 Darkhorse wrote: 2. MoustacheTerran 1. LiquidSucksBallsWithoutMe
but seriously a bunch of you are idiots repeating the same "durrr Liquid bias Taeja never won a single game in Korea I heard"
Guessing ya'll didn't watch Taeja in IPL TAC. Guessing ya'll don't think about how he has won more Premiers than anyone else. Guessing none of you have seen him body GSL heavy hitters (in weekend events and sometimes in GSL remember he has actually made some Ro4s) over a period of 3+ years
On my GOAT list I had Taeja at 4 behind MC but I can see him at 3
The reason people keep saying Liquid bias is because it happens in every single ranking article Liquid has produced. I really love most of the articles the writers of this site put out, but I really can't take the rankings serious any more. I have written longer posts about it in the past but it's not really worth it.
It's Taeja bias, not liquid bias. I usually don't see TL overrating HerO or TLO to enormous degrees.
Have you ever considered that you might be underrating Taeja a little?
Yes I have. I'm not getting into this discussion again. The changes it will end up productive are very small. And it won't change the writer's bias.
That statement is a cop out and does very little to prove your point. To me that says "I think what i think but I can't or won't defend it".
On April 26 2015 05:03 Darkhorse wrote: 2. MoustacheTerran 1. LiquidSucksBallsWithoutMe
but seriously a bunch of you are idiots repeating the same "durrr Liquid bias Taeja never won a single game in Korea I heard"
Guessing ya'll didn't watch Taeja in IPL TAC. Guessing ya'll don't think about how he has won more Premiers than anyone else. Guessing none of you have seen him body GSL heavy hitters (in weekend events and sometimes in GSL remember he has actually made some Ro4s) over a period of 3+ years
On my GOAT list I had Taeja at 4 behind MC but I can see him at 3
The reason people keep saying Liquid bias is because it happens in every single ranking article Liquid has produced. I really love most of the articles the writers of this site put out, but I really can't take the rankings serious any more. I have written longer posts about it in the past but it's not really worth it.
It's Taeja bias, not liquid bias. I usually don't see TL overrating HerO or TLO to enormous degrees.
Have you ever considered that you might be underrating Taeja a little?
That's just because they have been performing very very poorly. Hero used to be extremely overrated. Hero was never the best Protoss in the world.
On April 26 2015 05:52 The Harem King wrote: My first reaction to this when reading the placements was this will be interesting. Read the comments everyone was freaking out about Taeja being top5 and this is coming from a Taeja fan I began to even speculate the credibility. After reading this thoroughly I now fully agree with your decision stuchiu! Wow I never looked at it the way you did it and it's amazing how factual you did this! I have to give you some major props man don't listen to all those who will hate and debate you got cold hard facts here! I'm now interested though Life or Mvp #1?
On April 26 2015 06:00 tjtombo wrote: Giving Flash number one would be the greatest troll of all time
Nah it would be too easily dismissed as a joke to really troll anyone. A real troll would've been putting Taeja at #2, just look at all the butthurt over him at #3 lol, #1 would be too much.
I agree overall with the writer's ranking. Personally, I would have put Parting in rank 15 instead of Leenock, swap Taeja and MC at rank #3 and #4, and switched MMA and Polt at rank #5 and #6.
People don't understand how good Taeja was. I have been at IPL TAC finals where IM defeated Taeja 1-7 (to be honest, it was more 1-8, cf Nestea vs Taeja rematch). I was there. It took hours, it was grueling. And yet, he pummeled his opponents one after the other. Taeja was incredibly dominant that summer.
On April 26 2015 05:03 Darkhorse wrote: 2. MoustacheTerran 1. LiquidSucksBallsWithoutMe
but seriously a bunch of you are idiots repeating the same "durrr Liquid bias Taeja never won a single game in Korea I heard"
Guessing ya'll didn't watch Taeja in IPL TAC. Guessing ya'll don't think about how he has won more Premiers than anyone else. Guessing none of you have seen him body GSL heavy hitters (in weekend events and sometimes in GSL remember he has actually made some Ro4s) over a period of 3+ years
On my GOAT list I had Taeja at 4 behind MC but I can see him at 3
The reason people keep saying Liquid bias is because it happens in every single ranking article Liquid has produced. I really love most of the articles the writers of this site put out, but I really can't take the rankings serious any more. I have written longer posts about it in the past but it's not really worth it.
I think this is an unfair assessment. Anyone who has read my posts in LR threads will know that I am no fan of Taeja or even of Team Liquid, but I was still routinely accused of being biased in favor of Taeja when I was writing Power Ranks. It's not impossible, but isn't it just as likely that you, and many others, are biased against Taeja?
On April 26 2015 06:04 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Yep, exactly as predicted.
Life and Mvp coming up....wonder why we have to wait for part 4...UNLESS
Life > Mvp?! :O
That is not unreasonable at all. Those two are so close now that Life won his third GSL and Blizzcon. Especially since one of Mvp's four GSL titles was that really, really small World Championship invitational.
On April 26 2015 06:04 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Yep, exactly as predicted.
Life and Mvp coming up....wonder why we have to wait for part 4...UNLESS
Life > Mvp?! :O
That is not unreasonable at all. Those two are so close now that Life won his third GSL and Blizzcon. Especially since one of Mvp's four GSL titles was that really, really small World Championship invitational.
On April 26 2015 05:03 Darkhorse wrote: 2. MoustacheTerran 1. LiquidSucksBallsWithoutMe
but seriously a bunch of you are idiots repeating the same "durrr Liquid bias Taeja never won a single game in Korea I heard"
Guessing ya'll didn't watch Taeja in IPL TAC. Guessing ya'll don't think about how he has won more Premiers than anyone else. Guessing none of you have seen him body GSL heavy hitters (in weekend events and sometimes in GSL remember he has actually made some Ro4s) over a period of 3+ years
On my GOAT list I had Taeja at 4 behind MC but I can see him at 3
The reason people keep saying Liquid bias is because it happens in every single ranking article Liquid has produced. I really love most of the articles the writers of this site put out, but I really can't take the rankings serious any more. I have written longer posts about it in the past but it's not really worth it.
I think this is an unfair assessment. Anyone who has read my posts in LR threads will know that I am no fan of Taeja or even of Team Liquid, but I was still routinely accused of being biased in favor of Taeja when I was writing Power Ranks. It's not impossible, but isn't it just as likely that you, and many others, are biased against Taeja?
Fair point, but I hardly read the power ranks for SC2, so I can't say anything about that.
My main problem is with the yearly player rankings which are done by collective voting. You may not be biased. But the way I perceive it, is that the staff as a collective is biased. But obviously that might be my own confirmation bias.
Taeja #3, not a complete farce argument under that criteria...... but how many people would actually say Taeja is #3? Lack of wins in Korea is like never winning a grand slam in tennis.
On April 26 2015 06:18 Thrillz wrote: Taeja #3, not a complete farce argument under that criteria...... but how many people would actually say Taeja is #3? Lack of wins in Korea is like never winning a grand slam in tennis.
Or rather not winning Roland Garros, winning some others (that could be considered a bit less "hard"), but beating the likes of Nadal, Federer, Djokovic on the way. That counts.
Also, some GSL were truly not as hard as some others (like GSL November 2011, GSL Season 3 2012, etc.), so uh, yeah, I'd not overrate players that won a GSL.
Seriously, Taeja has won way more premier tournaments than anyone else. If the ones that actually win GSLs are so better than him, how come they don't win these foreign tournaments?
On April 26 2015 05:03 Darkhorse wrote: 2. MoustacheTerran 1. LiquidSucksBallsWithoutMe
but seriously a bunch of you are idiots repeating the same "durrr Liquid bias Taeja never won a single game in Korea I heard"
Guessing ya'll didn't watch Taeja in IPL TAC. Guessing ya'll don't think about how he has won more Premiers than anyone else. Guessing none of you have seen him body GSL heavy hitters (in weekend events and sometimes in GSL remember he has actually made some Ro4s) over a period of 3+ years
On my GOAT list I had Taeja at 4 behind MC but I can see him at 3
The reason people keep saying Liquid bias is because it happens in every single ranking article Liquid has produced. I really love most of the articles the writers of this site put out, but I really can't take the rankings serious any more. I have written longer posts about it in the past but it's not really worth it.
I think this is an unfair assessment. Anyone who has read my posts in LR threads will know that I am no fan of Taeja or even of Team Liquid, but I was still routinely accused of being biased in favor of Taeja when I was writing Power Ranks. It's not impossible, but isn't it just as likely that you, and many others, are biased against Taeja?
Fair point, but I hardly read the power ranks for SC2, so I can't say anything about that.
Wait, you call out PR writers for something you say happens in all PR, but you didn't read those?
On April 26 2015 06:24 Ragnarork wrote: Wait, you call out PR writers for something you say happens in all PR, but you didn't read those?
No I'm not. If I did, I probably stated it wrongly. Also, you cut out the part where I said my problem was not with the PR. I only mentioned the PR because he was defending himself as a non-biased writer for the PR. Read better next time.
Once again commenting on 'Liquid bias' has resulted in unproductive discussion and Taeja fans name-calling me in PM's. I'm done with this topic.
Top 5 is pretty obvious, so it isn't as interesting. Taeja over MC is something that you could easily argue both ways (though personally I'd favour MC), so w/e. Part 4 next week though...
On April 26 2015 06:24 Ragnarork wrote: Wait, you call out PR writers for something you say happens in all PR, but you didn't read those?
No I'm not. If I did, I probably stated it wrongly. Also, you cut out the part where I said my problem was not with the PR. I only mentioned the PR because he was defending himself as a non-biased writer for the PR. Read better next time.
Once again commenting on 'Liquid bias' has resulted in unproductive discussion and Taeja fans name-calling me in PM's. I'm done with this topic.
The reason people keep saying Liquid bias is because it happens in every single ranking article Liquid has produced
I hardly read the power ranks for SC2, so I can't say anything about that.
Basically, I am ok with taeja in the top 5... even if I hate taeja.
But you know, I would have rate him #5 or #4. Taeja has no premiere wins in Korea, and when you are making a top 15 GOAT rank, I don't know if you can easily underestimate that fact, even when in some of Taeja's weekend runs he's faced strong opposition. And imo, homestory cups don't deserve the premiere tournament tag, since it's basically a friendly reunion, and lacks the hype, tension and stress of a regular tournament.
Anyways, it's stuchiu's oppinion, and the guy knows a lot of sc2. A proof of this fact it's his avatar: 10pool is the greatest BO ever.
Can't we have a huge vote on the top 15? let's put in 30 players and everyone votes for 15 players and gives them points on some scale, and we'll crown the "TL community" top 15. I'd imagine e.g. parting making it in there, which he doesnt seem to here (I mean even when I saw the top 15 concept, I called mvp and life for top 2, I don't think many would argue that).
Mvp is the only bonjwa sc2 ever had and life is looking promising to complete that. But I definitely think Taeja deserves top 3 even though its hard to decide between MC or Taeja.
Yes arguments can be made between MC and Taeja, but the reason I believe Taeja is the best, is that while MC created protoss, Taeja has his own build-style to playing terran that I haven't seen many other players create.
I don't know guys, but I do think Taeja deserves third.
Rain, Innovation and Zest are the only three that seem to be rated way too high, imo.
Rain and Innovation are always touted as two of the best, but rarely deliver. Zest was dominating when Protoss as a hole was kinda brokenly destroying everything.. :\
One thing I'd disagree about on the methodology used to determine who the greatest player is, is that it is much too focused on individual runs. It doesn't factor in consistency as well (yes I'm thinking of PartinG), and in addition doesn't take into account tournament density during different periods. If the number of tournaments featuring the best in the world is larger, you evidently have more attempts to defeat them. So if you are the best in the world or close to it for the same amount of time as someone else was and there are more tournaments you would obviously be favoured over them with this ranking system. You probably should be as you've proved yourself more, but comparing runs one by one will magnify that difference which really isn't so significant.
On April 26 2015 07:22 ZigguratOfUr wrote: One thing I'd disagree about on the methodology used to determine who the greatest player is, is that it is much too focused on individual runs. It doesn't factor in consistency as well (yes I'm thinking of PartinG), and in addition doesn't take into account tournament density during different periods. If the number of tournaments featuring the best in the world is larger, you evidently have more attempts to defeat them. So if you are the best in the world or close to it for the same amount of time as someone else was and there are more tournaments you would obviously be favoured over them with this ranking system. You probably should be as you've proved yourself more, but comparing runs one by one will magnify that difference which really isn't so significant.
I wonder what a good system would be to alleviate that issue. How many premier tournaments won relative to how many in the year?
On April 26 2015 07:22 ZigguratOfUr wrote: One thing I'd disagree about on the methodology used to determine who the greatest player is, is that it is much too focused on individual runs. It doesn't factor in consistency as well (yes I'm thinking of PartinG), and in addition doesn't take into account tournament density during different periods. If the number of tournaments featuring the best in the world is larger, you evidently have more attempts to defeat them. So if you are the best in the world or close to it for the same amount of time as someone else was and there are more tournaments you would obviously be favoured over them with this ranking system. You probably should be as you've proved yourself more, but comparing runs one by one will magnify that difference which really isn't so significant.
I wonder what a good system would be to alleviate that issue. How many premier tournaments won relative to how many in the year?
It isn't that simple since tournaments aren't evenly distributed throughout the year either, more of them happening in the summer and the fall. And in addition there are more higher level tournaments in the fall, since various circuits culminate then. Not sure.
And then again, maybe I'm being too picky. There's only so many variables you can factor in before your system becomes unmanageable.
In my eyes Taeja is the greatest sc2 player of all time. The only one I would ever dare call Bonjwa. At one point no one could beat him and I cant remember how many times I have rooted against him in vain. He was just scary and unbreakable, despite nagging injuries. However I can fully understand the justification for putting him in at number 3, as foreign tournament wins just aren't nearly as prestigious and I am sure you can make great arguments for Life and MVP as well.
Now that it's clear PartinG won't be on this list, I have to post one illustrative point:
PartinG Premier Tournament Wins: 4 PartinG Premier Tournament Second Place: 5 PartinG Major Tournament Wins: 7 PartinG Total SC2 Winnings Rank: #6 all time PartinG All Time-Aligulac Ratings: #1 Protoss Rating Ever Acheived, #1 PvT Rating Ever Acheived, #1 PvZ Rating Ever Acheived (no, not in the WoL era), #2 PvP Rating Ever Acheived
soO Premier Tournament Wins: 0 soO Premier Tournament Second Place: 5 soO Major Tournament Wins: 1 soO Total SC2 Winnings Rank: #42 all time soO All Time Aligulac Rating: Not in top 5 for any matchup
So yes, I think it's quite clear who, "objectively" is the better player.
PartinG should be #4 on this list. Mvp, Life and MAYBE TaeJa are the only better players in history. It absolutely cannot be argued objectively with any degree of fairness that players like soO, MKP or Rain are better all time than he is.
On April 26 2015 05:27 Darkhorse wrote: Also I think it's kinda funny that people always assume that VOLUNTEER writers with 0 AFFILIATION WITH THE ACTUAL PRO TEAM have this natural "Liquid bias"
Not sure what's funny about that because it's true. Not saying that it's a bad thing. It's just a natural thing that happens when you are part of something. Especially something you volunteer for. Might as well recognize it.
On April 26 2015 07:45 Yakikorosu wrote: Now that it's clear PartinG won't be on this list, I have to post one illustrative point:
PartinG Premier Tournament Wins: 4 PartinG Premier Tournament Second Place: 5 PartinG Major Tournament Wins: 7 PartinG Total SC2 Winnings Rank: #6 all time PartinG All Time-Aligulac Ratings: #1 Protoss Rating Ever Acheived, #1 PvT Rating Ever Acheived, #1 PvZ Rating Ever Acheived (no, not in the WoL era), #2 PvP Rating Ever Acheived
soO Premier Tournament Wins: 0 soO Premier Tournament Second Place: 5 soO Major Tournament Wins: 1 soO Total SC2 Winnings Rank: #42 all time soO All Time Aligulac Rating: Not in top 5 for any matchup
So yes, I think it's quite clear who, "objectively" is the better player.
PartinG should be #4 on this list. Mvp, Life and MAYBE TaeJa are the only better players in history.
All tournaments aren't made equal. Your statistics are meaningless without qualification. There is a very strong argument for including PartinG in the top 15; your argument is anything but strong or illustrative.
On April 26 2015 07:15 Fuell wrote: parting should really be ahead of leenock, mkp, rain
It's an pretty objective list based on research. But clearly your 'feeling' should have more value
dw about this guy he loves Parting and he thinks Life is a mediocre Korean Zerg
I don't love PartinG and I totally agree with him. Stuchiu is an excellent writer and clearly knows his shit, but PartinG at a minimum should be where Rain is imo.
He's better than Rain in almost every category except for maybe innovation.
On April 26 2015 05:27 Darkhorse wrote: Also I think it's kinda funny that people always assume that VOLUNTEER writers with 0 AFFILIATION WITH THE ACTUAL PRO TEAM have this natural "Liquid bias"
Not sure what's funny about that because it's true. Not saying that it's a bad thing. It's just a natural thing that happens when you are part of something. Especially something you volunteer for. Might as well recognize it.
I'm glad you're here to tell me what I think. It baffles me but with you as my guide I'm sure I can figure out who I am biased for and against! Thanks man!
On April 26 2015 05:27 Darkhorse wrote: Also I think it's kinda funny that people always assume that VOLUNTEER writers with 0 AFFILIATION WITH THE ACTUAL PRO TEAM have this natural "Liquid bias"
Not sure what's funny about that because it's true. Not saying that it's a bad thing. It's just a natural thing that happens when you are part of something. Especially something you volunteer for. Might as well recognize it.
I'm glad you're here to tell me what I think. It baffles me but with you as my guide I'm sure I can figure out who I am biased for and against! Thanks man!
Do you feel bad if somebody gives you less-than-positive feedback? Do you automatically deny, resist, deflect, or counter with arguments?
If so, this is blocking growth in your relationships with people.
Don’t worry, defensiveness comes from a place of survival. You’re probably only trying to protect yourself from a perceived attack on your self and your “reputation.”
What feels like judgment by people we care about hurts. So if you get defensive, it means you’re a fighter, which is good!
The problem is that defensiveness assumes you are being transgressed and justifies the victim role. It feels totally understandable, and so becomes insidious and habitual.
You may not even know you are doing it. But if you really think about it, you realize it only escalates conflict, and NEVER solves problems. In fact, chronic defensiveness is a sure sign of decline in any relationship, because it blocks empathy and puts you in opposition with people.
On April 26 2015 07:22 ZigguratOfUr wrote: One thing I'd disagree about on the methodology used to determine who the greatest player is, is that it is much too focused on individual runs. It doesn't factor in consistency as well (yes I'm thinking of PartinG), and in addition doesn't take into account tournament density during different periods. If the number of tournaments featuring the best in the world is larger, you evidently have more attempts to defeat them. So if you are the best in the world or close to it for the same amount of time as someone else was and there are more tournaments you would obviously be favoured over them with this ranking system. You probably should be as you've proved yourself more, but comparing runs one by one will magnify that difference which really isn't so significant.
I wonder what a good system would be to alleviate that issue. How many premier tournaments won relative to how many in the year?
So I ran a quick script on this idea, using this Liquipedia page http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments Only counting finals appearances in Premier tournaments, giving 100/number_of_tournaments_in_the_year points for a 1st place and 70/number_of_tournaments_in_the_year for 2nd place. Obviously this isn't great, maybe I can also weight it by prize money, and maybe give extra points to the tournaments in Korea. Also with this Code A Champion is worth the same points as Code S lol.
#1 Life with a score of 77 #2 Polt with a score of 49 #3 Zest with a score of 35 #4 PartinG with a score of 35 #5 TaeJa with a score of 34 #6 MC with a score of 31 #7 Mvp with a score of 28 #8 MMA with a score of 28 #9 Maru with a score of 23 #10 Trap with a score of 20 + Show Spoiler [More] +
#11 Bomber with a score of 20 #12 Hydra with a score of 18 #13 HerO with a score of 17 #14 Jaedong with a score of 16 #15 DongRaeGu with a score of 15 #16 HyuN with a score of 14 #17 Leenock with a score of 14 #18 sOs with a score of 13 #19 Stephano with a score of 13 #20 NaNiwa with a score of 13 #21 MarineKing with a score of 12 #22 Rain with a score of 12 #23 herO with a score of 12 #24 PuMa with a score of 11 #25 INnoVation with a score of 10 #26 soO with a score of 10 #27 Soulkey with a score of 10 #28 San with a score of 9 #29 NesTea with a score of 9 #30 viOLet with a score of 8 #31 Solar with a score of 8 #32 Nerchio with a score of 8 #33 Dear with a score of 8 #34 MaNa with a score of 8 #35 Symbol with a score of 7 #36 Flash with a score of 7 #37 First with a score of 7 #38 Oz with a score of 6 #39 LosirA with a score of 6 #40 ForGG with a score of 6 #41 DIMAGA with a score of 6 #42 StarDust with a score of 6 #43 Creator with a score of 6 #44 Snute with a score of 6 #45 Alicia with a score of 5 #46 ThorZaIN with a score of 5 #47 Squirtle with a score of 5 #48 HuK with a score of 5 #49 Revival with a score of 5 #50 YoDa with a score of 5 #51 jjakji with a score of 4 #52 Dream with a score of 4 #53 TOP with a score of 4 #54 White-Ra with a score of 4 #55 Moon with a score of 4 #56 Curious with a score of 3 #57 Sen with a score of 3 #58 RorO with a score of 3 #59 IdrA with a score of 3 #60 Sacsri with a score of 3 #61 GanZi with a score of 3 #62 Pigbaby with a score of 3 #63 duckdeok with a score of 3 #64 Puzzle with a score of 3 #65 Classic with a score of 3 #66 SuperNova with a score of 3 #67 AcE with a score of 3 #68 Ret with a score of 3 #69 SjoW with a score of 3 #70 Impact with a score of 2 #71 Grubby with a score of 2 #72 Genius with a score of 2 #73 Sound with a score of 2 #74 ByuN with a score of 2 #75 Adelscott with a score of 2 #76 Sora with a score of 2 #77 FruitDealer with a score of 2 #78 Lucky with a score of 2 #79 Sniper with a score of 2 #80 elfi with a score of 2 #81 Cure with a score of 2 #82 CoCa with a score of 2 #83 Bly with a score of 2 #84 VortiX with a score of 2 #85 Heart with a score of 2 #86 Sting with a score of 2 #87 YongHwa with a score of 2 #88 Tassadar with a score of 2 #89 ByuL with a score of 2 #90 InCa with a score of 2 #91 KiWiKaKi with a score of 2 #92 Seed with a score of 2 #93 July with a score of 2 #94 Scarlett with a score of 2 #95 MorroW with a score of 2 #96 aLive with a score of 2 #97 XiGua with a score of 2
function ScorePlayer(p) { var score=0; for(var i in p.years) { var y=p.years[i]; score += y.firsts * 100 / years[i].tournaments; score += y.seconds * 70 / years[i].tournaments; } return Math.round(score); }
$('h3').each(function(){ console.log($(this).text()); var year=$(this).text(); var t=$(this).next(); t.find('tbody tr').each(function(){ var c=$(this).find('td'); //console.log(c); var champ=''; var runnerup=''; var champs=[]; var runnerups=[]; try { champ=$(c[7]).text(); runnerup=$(c[8]).text(); champs=champ.split(/\s+/g); runnerups=runnerup.split(/\s+/g); } catch(e) { } for(var i in champs) { var n=champs[i]; if(n.length==0) continue; AddPlacing(n, 1, year); } for(var i in runnerups) { var n=runnerups[i]; if(n.length==0) continue; AddPlacing(n, 2, year); } }); });
for(var n in players) { var p=players[n]; p['score']=ScorePlayer(p); aplayers.push(p); } console.log('sorting players'); aplayers.sort(function(a,b) { return b.score-a.score; }); console.log('listing players'); var out='\n\n\n'; for(var i in aplayers) { var p=aplayers[i]; var place=i- -1; out+='#'+place+' '+p.name+' with a score of '+p.score+'\n'; } out+='\n'; console.log(out); //console.log(players);
Hmm I know Rain is held highly in regard, but I think Parting should have replaced Rain. The Nestea Award in particular stands out.
On the other hand, I took a break from watching SC2 when Rain was at his peak, and frankly the amount of work and thought that Stuchiu has put into this makes the article more or less ... irreproachable? At the very least extremely authoritative.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, thanks for the great content!
On April 26 2015 05:27 Darkhorse wrote: Also I think it's kinda funny that people always assume that VOLUNTEER writers with 0 AFFILIATION WITH THE ACTUAL PRO TEAM have this natural "Liquid bias"
Not sure what's funny about that because it's true. Not saying that it's a bad thing. It's just a natural thing that happens when you are part of something. Especially something you volunteer for. Might as well recognize it.
Yeah I agree it's natural and not "bad", but something to keep in mind
On April 26 2015 05:27 Darkhorse wrote: Also I think it's kinda funny that people always assume that VOLUNTEER writers with 0 AFFILIATION WITH THE ACTUAL PRO TEAM have this natural "Liquid bias"
Not sure what's funny about that because it's true. Not saying that it's a bad thing. It's just a natural thing that happens when you are part of something. Especially something you volunteer for. Might as well recognize it.
I'm glad you're here to tell me what I think. It baffles me but with you as my guide I'm sure I can figure out who I am biased for and against! Thanks man!
Do you feel bad if somebody gives you less-than-positive feedback? Do you automatically deny, resist, deflect, or counter with arguments?
If so, this is blocking growth in your relationships with people.
Don’t worry, defensiveness comes from a place of survival. You’re probably only trying to protect yourself from a perceived attack on your self and your “reputation.”
What feels like judgment by people we care about hurts. So if you get defensive, it means you’re a fighter, which is good!
The problem is that defensiveness assumes you are being transgressed and justifies the victim role. It feels totally understandable, and so becomes insidious and habitual.
You may not even know you are doing it. But if you really think about it, you realize it only escalates conflict, and NEVER solves problems. In fact, chronic defensiveness is a sure sign of decline in any relationship, because it blocks empathy and puts you in opposition with people.
Alright let's bring this back into the reality instead of your audition to be the official psychiatrist of SC2 General yeah?
Do you feel bad if somebody gives you less-than-positive feedback? Do you automatically deny, resist, deflect, or counter with arguments?
Nope!
And I firmly believe that I don't have any Liquid bias, and assuming I have Liquid bias just because I write for the site is unfair. That's all. I hope we can stay on track from now on
On April 26 2015 05:27 Darkhorse wrote: Also I think it's kinda funny that people always assume that VOLUNTEER writers with 0 AFFILIATION WITH THE ACTUAL PRO TEAM have this natural "Liquid bias"
Not sure what's funny about that because it's true. Not saying that it's a bad thing. It's just a natural thing that happens when you are part of something. Especially something you volunteer for. Might as well recognize it.
I'm glad you're here to tell me what I think. It baffles me but with you as my guide I'm sure I can figure out who I am biased for and against! Thanks man!
Do you feel bad if somebody gives you less-than-positive feedback? Do you automatically deny, resist, deflect, or counter with arguments?
If so, this is blocking growth in your relationships with people.
Don’t worry, defensiveness comes from a place of survival. You’re probably only trying to protect yourself from a perceived attack on your self and your “reputation.”
What feels like judgment by people we care about hurts. So if you get defensive, it means you’re a fighter, which is good!
The problem is that defensiveness assumes you are being transgressed and justifies the victim role. It feels totally understandable, and so becomes insidious and habitual.
You may not even know you are doing it. But if you really think about it, you realize it only escalates conflict, and NEVER solves problems. In fact, chronic defensiveness is a sure sign of decline in any relationship, because it blocks empathy and puts you in opposition with people.
Alright let's bring this back into the reality instead of your audition to be the official psychiatrist of SC2 General yeah?
Do you feel bad if somebody gives you less-than-positive feedback? Do you automatically deny, resist, deflect, or counter with arguments?
Nope!
And I firmly believe that I don't have any Liquid bias, and assuming I have Liquid bias just because I write for the site is unfair. That's all. I hope we can stay on track from now on
On April 26 2015 05:27 Darkhorse wrote: Also I think it's kinda funny that people always assume that VOLUNTEER writers with 0 AFFILIATION WITH THE ACTUAL PRO TEAM have this natural "Liquid bias"
Not sure what's funny about that because it's true. Not saying that it's a bad thing. It's just a natural thing that happens when you are part of something. Especially something you volunteer for. Might as well recognize it.
I'm glad you're here to tell me what I think. It baffles me but with you as my guide I'm sure I can figure out who I am biased for and against! Thanks man!
Do you feel bad if somebody gives you less-than-positive feedback? Do you automatically deny, resist, deflect, or counter with arguments?
If so, this is blocking growth in your relationships with people.
Don’t worry, defensiveness comes from a place of survival. You’re probably only trying to protect yourself from a perceived attack on your self and your “reputation.”
What feels like judgment by people we care about hurts. So if you get defensive, it means you’re a fighter, which is good!
The problem is that defensiveness assumes you are being transgressed and justifies the victim role. It feels totally understandable, and so becomes insidious and habitual.
You may not even know you are doing it. But if you really think about it, you realize it only escalates conflict, and NEVER solves problems. In fact, chronic defensiveness is a sure sign of decline in any relationship, because it blocks empathy and puts you in opposition with people.
Alright let's bring this back into the reality instead of your audition to be the official psychiatrist of SC2 General yeah?
Do you feel bad if somebody gives you less-than-positive feedback? Do you automatically deny, resist, deflect, or counter with arguments?
Nope!
And I firmly believe that I don't have any Liquid bias, and assuming I have Liquid bias just because I write for the site is unfair. That's all. I hope we can stay on track from now on
Fair enough haha
Excellent
Although you certainly have a future in psychiatry if I do say so myself
This is in the foreword: "A basic guideline is Blizzcons(Only 2013+) > GSL > OSL/SSL/Kespa Cup/WCS (2012 KR)/WCG KR/Blizzcon 2011 > International Tournaments."
On April 26 2015 05:27 Darkhorse wrote: Also I think it's kinda funny that people always assume that VOLUNTEER writers with 0 AFFILIATION WITH THE ACTUAL PRO TEAM have this natural "Liquid bias"
Not sure what's funny about that because it's true. Not saying that it's a bad thing. It's just a natural thing that happens when you are part of something. Especially something you volunteer for. Might as well recognize it.
I'm glad you're here to tell me what I think. It baffles me but with you as my guide I'm sure I can figure out who I am biased for and against! Thanks man!
Do you feel bad if somebody gives you less-than-positive feedback? Do you automatically deny, resist, deflect, or counter with arguments?
If so, this is blocking growth in your relationships with people.
Don’t worry, defensiveness comes from a place of survival. You’re probably only trying to protect yourself from a perceived attack on your self and your “reputation.”
What feels like judgment by people we care about hurts. So if you get defensive, it means you’re a fighter, which is good!
The problem is that defensiveness assumes you are being transgressed and justifies the victim role. It feels totally understandable, and so becomes insidious and habitual.
You may not even know you are doing it. But if you really think about it, you realize it only escalates conflict, and NEVER solves problems. In fact, chronic defensiveness is a sure sign of decline in any relationship, because it blocks empathy and puts you in opposition with people.
Alright let's bring this back into the reality instead of your audition to be the official psychiatrist of SC2 General yeah?
Do you feel bad if somebody gives you less-than-positive feedback? Do you automatically deny, resist, deflect, or counter with arguments?
Nope!
And I firmly believe that I don't have any Liquid bias, and assuming I have Liquid bias just because I write for the site is unfair. That's all. I hope we can stay on track from now on
Fair enough haha
Excellent
Although you certainly have a future in psychiatry if I do say so myself
Never. I went the entrepreneurial route 3+ years ago and started my own marketing company so that I don't HAVE to listen or deal with people I don't want to.
On April 26 2015 05:27 Darkhorse wrote: Also I think it's kinda funny that people always assume that VOLUNTEER writers with 0 AFFILIATION WITH THE ACTUAL PRO TEAM have this natural "Liquid bias"
Not sure what's funny about that because it's true. Not saying that it's a bad thing. It's just a natural thing that happens when you are part of something. Especially something you volunteer for. Might as well recognize it.
I'm glad you're here to tell me what I think. It baffles me but with you as my guide I'm sure I can figure out who I am biased for and against! Thanks man!
Do you feel bad if somebody gives you less-than-positive feedback? Do you automatically deny, resist, deflect, or counter with arguments?
If so, this is blocking growth in your relationships with people.
Don’t worry, defensiveness comes from a place of survival. You’re probably only trying to protect yourself from a perceived attack on your self and your “reputation.”
What feels like judgment by people we care about hurts. So if you get defensive, it means you’re a fighter, which is good!
The problem is that defensiveness assumes you are being transgressed and justifies the victim role. It feels totally understandable, and so becomes insidious and habitual.
You may not even know you are doing it. But if you really think about it, you realize it only escalates conflict, and NEVER solves problems. In fact, chronic defensiveness is a sure sign of decline in any relationship, because it blocks empathy and puts you in opposition with people.
Alright let's bring this back into the reality instead of your audition to be the official psychiatrist of SC2 General yeah?
Do you feel bad if somebody gives you less-than-positive feedback? Do you automatically deny, resist, deflect, or counter with arguments?
Nope!
And I firmly believe that I don't have any Liquid bias, and assuming I have Liquid bias just because I write for the site is unfair. That's all. I hope we can stay on track from now on
Fair enough haha
Excellent
Although you certainly have a future in psychiatry if I do say so myself
Never. I went the entrepreneurial route 3+ years ago and started my own marketing company so that I don't HAVE to listen or deal with people I don't want to.
Oh well congratulations on starting your own company!
For all the TaeJa haters that talked about his no GSL wins, and who think he should be behind people like MC. Take this one comparison.
TaeJa - DH Winter 2013 - 1st - INnoVation, sOs, ForGG, HerO, MMA, Life, Life again
MC - 2nd GSL Win: July, San, July
I rest my case. Not all GSLs are created equal. And MC's 2nd GSL win was a joke compared to several of the tourneys TaeJa's won.
GSL's ARE the hardest tourney in the world IN GENERAL, but not by nearly as large a margin as people seem to think. And some are merely equal at best to top international events. Seed, Sniper, and Jjaki are GSL winners...who? Exactly.
Hope to see Life #1 but would understand MVP. Life would be my #1 though for many reasons including fan bias. He's just the most exciting player SC2 has ever had imo. I view the titles and stats as being quite similar between the two. The biggest thing for me though is the fact that Life isn't done winning championships. It's also extremely impressive to me to see him peak as #1 in the world in 3 different eras. It reminds me of JulyZerg in Broodwar. Even if MVP is put #1, I am fairly certain that if you re-did the list in a year with the same criteria, Life would be #1.
On April 26 2015 08:25 Alucen-Will- wrote: I'm not even going to argue about Taeja in the third position (even though it is completely unjustified), but PartinG not in the top 15? really?
What kind of reasonable criteria could bring about this result?
You can read his blog about this here: criteria used I am sure (and too lazy to check tbh) that stuchiu did his best to stick to these points as well as he could. I disagree with some of his thoughts on the criteria, but it's hard to discuss this list (and argue against it) cause nobody here will actually do the work stuchiu did. Excited for the top 2 though! (well the order)
On April 26 2015 07:22 ZigguratOfUr wrote: One thing I'd disagree about on the methodology used to determine who the greatest player is, is that it is much too focused on individual runs. It doesn't factor in consistency as well (yes I'm thinking of PartinG), and in addition doesn't take into account tournament density during different periods. If the number of tournaments featuring the best in the world is larger, you evidently have more attempts to defeat them. So if you are the best in the world or close to it for the same amount of time as someone else was and there are more tournaments you would obviously be favoured over them with this ranking system. You probably should be as you've proved yourself more, but comparing runs one by one will magnify that difference which really isn't so significant.
I wonder what a good system would be to alleviate that issue. How many premier tournaments won relative to how many in the year?
So I ran a quick script on this idea, using this Liquipedia page http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments Only counting finals appearances in Premier tournaments, giving 100/number_of_tournaments_in_the_year points for a 1st place and 70/number_of_tournaments_in_the_year for 2nd place. Obviously this isn't great, maybe I can also weight it by prize money, and maybe give extra points to the tournaments in Korea. Also with this Code A Champion is worth the same points as Code S lol.
#1 Life with a score of 77 #2 Polt with a score of 49 #3 Zest with a score of 35 #4 PartinG with a score of 35 #5 TaeJa with a score of 34 #6 MC with a score of 31 #7 Mvp with a score of 28 #8 MMA with a score of 28 #9 Maru with a score of 23 #10 Trap with a score of 20 + Show Spoiler [More] +
#11 Bomber with a score of 20 #12 Hydra with a score of 18 #13 HerO with a score of 17 #14 Jaedong with a score of 16 #15 DongRaeGu with a score of 15 #16 HyuN with a score of 14 #17 Leenock with a score of 14 #18 sOs with a score of 13 #19 Stephano with a score of 13 #20 NaNiwa with a score of 13 #21 MarineKing with a score of 12 #22 Rain with a score of 12 #23 herO with a score of 12 #24 PuMa with a score of 11 #25 INnoVation with a score of 10 #26 soO with a score of 10 #27 Soulkey with a score of 10 #28 San with a score of 9 #29 NesTea with a score of 9 #30 viOLet with a score of 8 #31 Solar with a score of 8 #32 Nerchio with a score of 8 #33 Dear with a score of 8 #34 MaNa with a score of 8 #35 Symbol with a score of 7 #36 Flash with a score of 7 #37 First with a score of 7 #38 Oz with a score of 6 #39 LosirA with a score of 6 #40 ForGG with a score of 6 #41 DIMAGA with a score of 6 #42 StarDust with a score of 6 #43 Creator with a score of 6 #44 Snute with a score of 6 #45 Alicia with a score of 5 #46 ThorZaIN with a score of 5 #47 Squirtle with a score of 5 #48 HuK with a score of 5 #49 Revival with a score of 5 #50 YoDa with a score of 5 #51 jjakji with a score of 4 #52 Dream with a score of 4 #53 TOP with a score of 4 #54 White-Ra with a score of 4 #55 Moon with a score of 4 #56 Curious with a score of 3 #57 Sen with a score of 3 #58 RorO with a score of 3 #59 IdrA with a score of 3 #60 Sacsri with a score of 3 #61 GanZi with a score of 3 #62 Pigbaby with a score of 3 #63 duckdeok with a score of 3 #64 Puzzle with a score of 3 #65 Classic with a score of 3 #66 SuperNova with a score of 3 #67 AcE with a score of 3 #68 Ret with a score of 3 #69 SjoW with a score of 3 #70 Impact with a score of 2 #71 Grubby with a score of 2 #72 Genius with a score of 2 #73 Sound with a score of 2 #74 ByuN with a score of 2 #75 Adelscott with a score of 2 #76 Sora with a score of 2 #77 FruitDealer with a score of 2 #78 Lucky with a score of 2 #79 Sniper with a score of 2 #80 elfi with a score of 2 #81 Cure with a score of 2 #82 CoCa with a score of 2 #83 Bly with a score of 2 #84 VortiX with a score of 2 #85 Heart with a score of 2 #86 Sting with a score of 2 #87 YongHwa with a score of 2 #88 Tassadar with a score of 2 #89 ByuL with a score of 2 #90 InCa with a score of 2 #91 KiWiKaKi with a score of 2 #92 Seed with a score of 2 #93 July with a score of 2 #94 Scarlett with a score of 2 #95 MorroW with a score of 2 #96 aLive with a score of 2 #97 XiGua with a score of 2
function ScorePlayer(p) { var score=0; for(var i in p.years) { var y=p.years[i]; score += y.firsts * 100 / years[i].tournaments; score += y.seconds * 70 / years[i].tournaments; } return Math.round(score); }
$('h3').each(function(){ console.log($(this).text()); var year=$(this).text(); var t=$(this).next(); t.find('tbody tr').each(function(){ var c=$(this).find('td'); //console.log(c); var champ=''; var runnerup=''; var champs=[]; var runnerups=[]; try { champ=$(c[7].text(); runnerup=$(c[8].text(); champs=champ.split(/\s+/g); runnerups=runnerup.split(/\s+/g); } catch(e) { } for(var i in champs) { var n=champs[i]; if(n.length==0) continue; AddPlacing(n, 1, year); } for(var i in runnerups) { var n=runnerups[i]; if(n.length==0) continue; AddPlacing(n, 2, year); } }); });
for(var n in players) { var p=players[n]; p['score']=ScorePlayer(p); aplayers.push(p); } console.log('sorting players'); aplayers.sort(function(a,b) { return b.score-a.score; }); console.log('listing players'); var out='\n\n\n'; for(var i in aplayers) { var p=aplayers[i]; var place=i- -1; out+='#'+place+' '+p.name+' with a score of '+p.score+'\n'; } out+='\n'; console.log(out); //console.log(players);
So I updated this to weight towards bigger money tournaments and tournaments in Korea. It looks at premier tournament finals placings and scores them relative to how many tournaments were in that year.
#1 Life with a score of 153 #2 Polt with a score of 140 #3 PartinG with a score of 92 #4 Hydra with a score of 88 #5 Zest with a score of 80 #6 Mvp with a score of 79 #7 MMA with a score of 68 #8 MC with a score of 64 #9 Trap with a score of 51 #10 soO with a score of 47 + Show Spoiler [More] +
#11 TaeJa with a score of 46 #12 Maru with a score of 42 #13 Bomber with a score of 39 #14 INnoVation with a score of 38 #15 sOs with a score of 36 #16 DongRaeGu with a score of 35 #17 Jaedong with a score of 35 #18 MarineKing with a score of 33 #19 Leenock with a score of 31 #20 Rain with a score of 29 #21 HerO with a score of 28 #22 HyuN with a score of 28 #23 Soulkey with a score of 27 #24 Stephano with a score of 25 #25 NesTea with a score of 24 #26 Dear with a score of 22 #27 herO with a score of 22 #28 PuMa with a score of 20 #29 Symbol with a score of 19 #30 NaNiwa with a score of 19 #31 LosirA with a score of 16 #32 Squirtle with a score of 16 #33 San with a score of 15 #34 TOP with a score of 15 #35 Oz with a score of 14 #36 Creator with a score of 14 #37 RorO with a score of 13 #38 jjakji with a score of 13 #39 viOLet with a score of 13 #40 Classic with a score of 12 #41 MaNa with a score of 12 #42 First with a score of 12 #43 YoDa with a score of 12 #44 Nerchio with a score of 11 #45 Flash with a score of 11 #46 ForGG with a score of 10 #47 StarDust with a score of 10 #48 Solar with a score of 10 #49 Alicia with a score of 10 #50 Dream with a score of 9 #51 Snute with a score of 9 #52 Revival with a score of 9 #53 Seed with a score of 9 #54 Sniper with a score of 9 #55 Genius with a score of 9 #56 July with a score of 8 #57 InCa with a score of 8 #58 Pigbaby with a score of 7 #59 DIMAGA with a score of 7 #60 SuperNova with a score of 7 #61 ByuN with a score of 6 #62 Heart with a score of 6 #63 duckdeok with a score of 6 #64 HuK with a score of 6 #65 ThorZaIN with a score of 6 #66 Puzzle with a score of 6 #67 Curious with a score of 6 #68 GanZi with a score of 6 #69 White-Ra with a score of 6 #70 Tassadar with a score of 5 #71 Moon with a score of 5 #72 aLive with a score of 5 #73 ByuL with a score of 5 #74 Sora with a score of 4 #75 Lucky with a score of 4 #76 Sting with a score of 3 #77 AcE with a score of 3 #78 IdrA with a score of 3 #79 VortiX with a score of 3 #80 Cure with a score of 3 #81 Sen with a score of 3 #82 SjoW with a score of 3 #83 Adelscott with a score of 3 #84 Impact with a score of 3 #85 Ret with a score of 3 #86 XiGua with a score of 3 #87 Scarlett with a score of 3 #88 Sacsri with a score of 3 #89 CoCa with a score of 2 #90 elfi with a score of 2 #91 KiWiKaKi with a score of 2 #92 FruitDealer with a score of 2 #93 Sound with a score of 2 #94 Grubby with a score of 2 #95 MorroW with a score of 2 #96 YongHwa with a score of 2 #97 Bly with a score of 2
function ScorePlayer(p) { var score=0; for(var i in p.years) { var y=p.years[i]; score += p.years[i].score / years[i].tournaments; } return Math.round(score); }
$('h3').each(function(){ console.log($(this).text()); var year=$(this).text(); var t=$(this).next(); t.find('tbody tr').each(function(){ var c=$(this).find('td'); //console.log(c); var champ=''; var runnerup=''; var champs=[]; var runnerups=[]; var country=''; var money=10000; try { champ=$(c[7]).text(); runnerup=$(c[8]).text(); champs=champ.split(/\s+/g); runnerups=runnerup.split(/\s+/g); country=$(c[6]).find('img').attr('alt'); money=$(c[4]).text().replace(/[s$,]/g, ''); money=parseInt(money); } catch(e) { } var m=money; for(var i in champs) { var n=champs[i]; if(n.length==0) continue; AddPlacing(n, 1, year, country, m); m/=2; } var m=money; for(var i in runnerups) { var n=runnerups[i]; if(n.length==0) continue; AddPlacing(n, 2, year, country, m); m/=2; } }); });
for(var n in players) { var p=players[n]; p['score']=ScorePlayer(p); aplayers.push(p); } console.log('sorting players'); aplayers.sort(function(a,b) { return b.score-a.score; }); console.log('listing players'); var out='\n\n\n'; for(var i in aplayers) { var p=aplayers[i]; var place=i- -1; out+='#'+place+' '+p.name+' with a score of '+p.score+'\n'; } out+='\n'; console.log(out); //console.log(players);
I enjoyed reading the writeups; I do believe that MC should be at number 3 and Taeja at number 4, though.
I read the criteria and stuchiu's defence of the positioning in this thread, and it's pretty logical but I can't help but feel if the reasoning for putting MC below Taeja is this criteria then the criteria must be wrong.
I think GSLs are undervalued in the criteria, and foreign tournaments are overvalued. If you face strong Korean opponents on foreign soil, unless it's Blizzcon or something which had a huge prize pool then it absolutely doesn't equate to playing the same opponents in Korea in a GSL which means the world to them. They're just too different. I read the inequalities of Blizzcon > GSL > ... etc but I don't think they are weighted enough towards GSLs. A GSL win is so, so important.
I also think the logic used at times to claim that the level of play has increased over time and so recent wins rank higher than older wins is dubious.
Lastly, stuchiu talks about balance and the meta quite a bit for Polt and Taeja, but barely talks about how ridiculous MC's achievements were in Wings given the appalling balance for 2010, 2011 and some of 2012. MC first wins GSL twice in 2010-2011 and is the only Protoss to do so. He is also one of two Protoss players to appear in a GSL finals in this period. At the same time, there are 4 Zerg GSL championships and 6 Terran. There are 14 appearances in GSL finals by Terrans, and 8 by Zerg. SC2 might have been younger back then and less well-formed, but that's a huge deal. It's pretty funny to only mention the 'protoss favored meta' in the MC article when MC loses to Seed, but then ignore the 1.5 year gap where every Protoss apart from MC got shafted in GSL.
Good read though, suppose it's natural to disagree with the rankings. Wouldn't be interesting otherwise!
On April 26 2015 07:15 Fuell wrote: parting should really be ahead of leenock, mkp, rain
It's an pretty objective list based on research. But clearly your 'feeling' should have more value
dw about this guy he loves Parting and he thinks Life is a mediocre Korean Zerg
I don't love PartinG and I totally agree with him. Stuchiu is an excellent writer and clearly knows his shit, but PartinG at a minimum should be where Rain is imo.
He's better than Rain in almost every category except for maybe innovation.
Actually I rate Parting higher in innovation. It's his runs that hurt him.
I really don't understand the upset with Taeja at 3. It's like people have never seen his runs in the tournaments he's won. Sure they're weekend tournaments in Europe or whatever, but they're hardly filled out with foreigners. They can be almost as stacked as GSL's half the time.
And I don't even like Taeja, his calls of retiring when he lost in tournaments really annoyed me.
On April 26 2015 07:15 Fuell wrote: parting should really be ahead of leenock, mkp, rain
It's an pretty objective list based on research. But clearly your 'feeling' should have more value
dw about this guy he loves Parting and he thinks Life is a mediocre Korean Zerg
I don't love PartinG and I totally agree with him. Stuchiu is an excellent writer and clearly knows his shit, but PartinG at a minimum should be where Rain is imo.
He's better than Rain in almost every category except for maybe innovation.
Actually I rate Parting higher in innovation. It's his runs that hurt him.
You should write an article detailing why PartinG isn't in the top 15. :D
Seriously though, I can't wrap my head around it and it hurts me since I <3 PartinG.
On April 26 2015 01:09 sc2chronic wrote: thast like the last straw on taeja. how many more biased articles will TL write that has taeja highly overrated? wouldd love to hear again that its just the "authors opinion". this article just lost so much credibility.
This entire article was devised and written by Stuchiu on his own. If you think some mysterious TL overlord influenced his decision to place Taeja at number 3 you're a nut case. Yeah I would have had him at 4 but Stuchiu has been great at explaining his criteria and sticking to it. This list has more credibility than any other power rank we've ever had
Wow, I had just assumed from the depth and the scope of the article that this was something of a collaborative effort, well played sir.
On April 26 2015 07:15 Fuell wrote: parting should really be ahead of leenock, mkp, rain
It's an pretty objective list based on research. But clearly your 'feeling' should have more value
dw about this guy he loves Parting and he thinks Life is a mediocre Korean Zerg
I don't love PartinG and I totally agree with him. Stuchiu is an excellent writer and clearly knows his shit, but PartinG at a minimum should be where Rain is imo.
He's better than Rain in almost every category except for maybe innovation.
Actually I rate Parting higher in innovation. It's his runs that hurt him.
You should write an article detailing why PartinG isn't in the top 15. :D
Seriously though, I can't wrap my head around it and it hurts me since I <3 PartinG.
On April 26 2015 07:15 Fuell wrote: parting should really be ahead of leenock, mkp, rain
It's an pretty objective list based on research. But clearly your 'feeling' should have more value
dw about this guy he loves Parting and he thinks Life is a mediocre Korean Zerg
no i dont? retard
User was warned for this post
I was just making a joke. I remember you told me Life was mediocre back in like 2013. Obviously you don't think that about him anymore
life is definitely mediocre, winning gsl's with ling runbys and 10 pools
i dont love parting i just fancy him a little
On March 23 2015 05:52 Fuell wrote: Honestly as biggest PartinG fan there is I still thought Life would take it 4-0 or 4-1. Managing to take it to 4-3 surprised me. I can say confidently now PartinG is the best Protoss atm. Maybe still a little under in PvZ compared to herO, but much closer than I thought. Better in PvT and PvP though :D! Gotta stay positive.
On April 26 2015 09:56 The_Templar wrote: I'm disappointed to see all of the anti-TaeJa bias that TL posters have. It's in every news article at this point.
On March 23 2015 05:52 Fuell wrote: Honestly as biggest PartinG fan there is I still thought Life would take it 4-0 or 4-1. Managing to take it to 4-3 surprised me. I can say confidently now PartinG is the best Protoss atm. Maybe still a little under in PvZ compared to herO, but much closer than I thought. Better in PvT and PvP though :D! Gotta stay positive.
On April 26 2015 06:18 Thrillz wrote: Taeja #3, not a complete farce argument under that criteria...... but how many people would actually say Taeja is #3? Lack of wins in Korea is like never winning a grand slam in tennis.
Or rather not winning Roland Garros, winning some others (that could be considered a bit less "hard"), but beating the likes of Nadal, Federer, Djokovic on the way. That counts.
Also, some GSL were truly not as hard as some others (like GSL November 2011, GSL Season 3 2012, etc.), so uh, yeah, I'd not overrate players that won a GSL.
Seriously, Taeja has won way more premier tournaments than anyone else. If the ones that actually win GSLs are so better than him, how come they don't win these foreign tournaments?
On April 26 2015 05:03 Darkhorse wrote: 2. MoustacheTerran 1. LiquidSucksBallsWithoutMe
but seriously a bunch of you are idiots repeating the same "durrr Liquid bias Taeja never won a single game in Korea I heard"
Guessing ya'll didn't watch Taeja in IPL TAC. Guessing ya'll don't think about how he has won more Premiers than anyone else. Guessing none of you have seen him body GSL heavy hitters (in weekend events and sometimes in GSL remember he has actually made some Ro4s) over a period of 3+ years
On my GOAT list I had Taeja at 4 behind MC but I can see him at 3
The reason people keep saying Liquid bias is because it happens in every single ranking article Liquid has produced. I really love most of the articles the writers of this site put out, but I really can't take the rankings serious any more. I have written longer posts about it in the past but it's not really worth it.
I think this is an unfair assessment. Anyone who has read my posts in LR threads will know that I am no fan of Taeja or even of Team Liquid, but I was still routinely accused of being biased in favor of Taeja when I was writing Power Ranks. It's not impossible, but isn't it just as likely that you, and many others, are biased against Taeja?
Fair point, but I hardly read the power ranks for SC2, so I can't say anything about that.
Wait, you call out PR writers for something you say happens in all PR, but you didn't read those?
Naw it definitely feels like never winning a major in tennis,golf, nascar, etc. In other sports people would never give someone a top 3 spot if you have never won a big one. And conversely, if some GSLs were easier than how come Taeja never won one either? I don't think he's made the finals of the Korea tournament or even a WCS. I just don't put much value in winning things like HSC compared to a starleague. He might even be the best at weekend tourneys but you have to be good enough to run through drawn out gauntlets in starleagues and win.
On April 26 2015 10:30 Reptilia wrote: i feel like too many people are whining about placements without reading the post...
Anytime Taeja is given even the smallest bit of credit for being the biggest wrecking ball of the international weekend tournament scene we have ever seen, people get butthurt. I have no idea why, save that it usually has something to do with obsessing about GSL as the be-all, end-all of SC2 skill.
That being said, I've been very impressed by the criteria used thus far. They are rigorous and comprehensible to anyone who wants to dive into the data, and back up stuchiu's placings admirably. I can't wait for next week's portion when he gives #1 to Life and everyone's heads explode.
Or, my preference, a tie for first between Life (undoubtedly the best player in the world of the past 3 years or so), and Mvp (the greatest strategic mind in the game's history, cut down by his injuries). Seriously, my heart is always with Mvp, but Life has that special ability to do stuff that literally no other player is capable of doing.
On April 26 2015 07:15 Fuell wrote: parting should really be ahead of leenock, mkp, rain
It's an pretty objective list based on research. But clearly your 'feeling' should have more value
dw about this guy he loves Parting and he thinks Life is a mediocre Korean Zerg
I don't love PartinG and I totally agree with him. Stuchiu is an excellent writer and clearly knows his shit, but PartinG at a minimum should be where Rain is imo.
He's better than Rain in almost every category except for maybe innovation.
Actually I rate Parting higher in innovation. It's his runs that hurt him.
How? Rain has both of his OSL runs (1st and 2nd) but PartinG has a respectable 2nd in the recent GSL which is comparable to at least one OSL. Especially considering he took Life of all people to game 7 in the finals.
Rain won WCS Asia, but PartinG got 2nd there and then won the WCS Global.
Rain won the 2013 Hotsix cup, but PartinG got 2nd in the 2012 Blizzard Cup. Which had to be GOM's most rigorous end-of-the-year event what with having a bo3, round-robin group stage, AND it was dominated by Zergs with BL/infestor. As opposed to a ro8 4-day event that Rain won.
Then there's the 2013 Global Championship where he narrowly lost 3-4 to Zest in the finals (he went through the qualifiers too).
Rain's OSL win is still quite an advantage even considering all of the above, but surely PartinG makes up for the gap in having numerous wins/high placings abroad compared to Rain.
==
PartinG is also more consistent than Rain as well. Despite only about 8 months or so separating them in terms of their respective ascents to being relevant, PartinG has held up longer as a top-tier player. He has 7 ro8+ code S runs compared to Rain's 5. As well as the longest code S streak and he didn't get two code S seeds to put him on track like Rain did either.
On April 26 2015 01:09 sc2chronic wrote: thast like the last straw on taeja. how many more biased articles will TL write that has taeja highly overrated? wouldd love to hear again that its just the "authors opinion". this article just lost so much credibility.
This entire article was devised and written by Stuchiu on his own. If you think some mysterious TL overlord influenced his decision to place Taeja at number 3 you're a nut case. Yeah I would have had him at 4 but Stuchiu has been great at explaining his criteria and sticking to it. This list has more credibility than any other power rank we've ever had
Wow, I had just assumed from the depth and the scope of the article that this was something of a collaborative effort, well played sir.
I did all the research and all the writing. I asked for some opinions to see if people could convince me otherwise on the rankings and lichter/cosmic edited it. Shiro did the gfx.
On April 26 2015 06:18 Thrillz wrote: Taeja #3, not a complete farce argument under that criteria...... but how many people would actually say Taeja is #3? Lack of wins in Korea is like never winning a grand slam in tennis.
Exactly what I said under "his criteria" I guess it can make sense but like I said if you were to ask people "Is Taeja the 3rd best player ever?" 99% would say NO. So this is just dumb he has 1 top 4 finish in his life in GSL and a bunch of Dreamhack, IEM, and Homestory Cup wins against lesser Europeans and a few other Koreans. If you don't beat the best you can't be included with the best plain and simple imo Taeja is #7 or #6 in SC2 era. Under this criteria yes I guess he is top 3 or 4 but in reality not even close to that he never beat the best playing in the hardest tournament its just like if Mayweather never fought Pacquiao he would never be considered one of the greatest cause he never fought the greatest opponent he could have in his time thats what Taeja has constantly been doing avoiding Korea and the GSL to play in lesser European tournaments even though he wins them its not as impressive no matter how dominant he is I'm sorry he's never been great when playing against the best of the best yeah he can win a series here or there but consistently look at him especially since he's had to go back to Korea he can't qualify for anything against the Kespa players SO WHY IS HE TOP 3 AGAIN? Oh yeah purely cause this specific "criteria" that's all I can't argue that but that doesn't make it close to fact or being truthful.
On April 26 2015 07:15 Fuell wrote: parting should really be ahead of leenock, mkp, rain
It's an pretty objective list based on research. But clearly your 'feeling' should have more value
dw about this guy he loves Parting and he thinks Life is a mediocre Korean Zerg
I don't love PartinG and I totally agree with him. Stuchiu is an excellent writer and clearly knows his shit, but PartinG at a minimum should be where Rain is imo.
He's better than Rain in almost every category except for maybe innovation.
Actually I rate Parting higher in innovation. It's his runs that hurt him.
How? Rain has both of his OSL runs (1st and 2nd) but PartinG has a respectable 2nd in the recent GSL which is comparable to at least one OSL. Especially considering he took Life of all people to game 7 in the finals.
Rain won WCS Asia, but PartinG got 2nd there and then won the WCS Global.
Rain won the 2013 Hotsix cup, but PartinG got 2nd in the 2012 Blizzard Cup. Which had to be GOM's most rigorous end-of-the-year event what with having a bo3, round-robin group stage, AND it was dominated by Zergs with BL/infestor. As opposed to a ro8 4-day event that Rain won.
Then there's the 2013 Global Championship where he narrowly lost 3-4 to Zest in the finals (he went through the qualifiers too).
Rain's OSL win is still quite an advantage even considering all of the above, but surely PartinG makes up for the gap in having numerous wins/high placings abroad compared to Rain.
==
PartinG is also more consistent than Rain as well. Despite only about 8 months or so separating them in terms of their respective ascents to being relevant, PartinG has held up longer as a top-tier player. He has 7 ro8+ code S runs compared to Rain's 5. As well as the longest code S streak and he didn't get two code S seeds to put him on track like Rain did either.
Ah yes the famed WCS 2012 where he beat Illusion, Socke, Scarlett, Suppy, Sen and then Creator. The WCG run is completely fraudulent. The Global Championship run the only notable player he beat was San. (DRG, Hack, Fantasy, Squirtle were, MMA, Revival were not what I considered relevant names. None of them were played I'd make a hard stance and say this player right here is a Top 10 player of his race at that very moment. Well maybe DRG but in early 2014 the only four Zergs that gave you points for beating them were soO, Life, Soulkey and Solar. MMA didn't become a real ocntender until the latter half of 2014).
Some of his runs were just too easy and in the list of the GOAT where one tournament run could mean the difference between being 19th or being 10th, the lack of beating really strong competition in some of his runs just wasn't enough.
I agree there's probably only a SMALL window where I would have called Taeja a "top 3" player... And his peak has never been that high (no KR LAN wins etc). However, there's a BIG window where I might have agreed to call him "top 5". His consistent domination at weekend tournaments is simply second to none. Since this article is more about "all time" best I can see that being a large factor.
Also I think it very likely that after this season of GSL/SSL/Kespa Cup Maru/Parting/sOs will likely shoot up and kick out a lot of players in the GOAT list.
On April 26 2015 11:28 stuchiu wrote: Also I think it very likely that after this season of GSL/SSL/Kespa Cup Maru/Parting/sOs will likely shoot up and kick out a lot of players in the GOAT list.
This makes me think that the break between seasons 1 and 2 of an unusually busy year such as this was a bad time to release a GOAT list. I can easily see anything outside of the top five changing drastically depending on player performances.
On April 26 2015 11:28 stuchiu wrote: Also I think it very likely that after this season of GSL/SSL/Kespa Cup Maru/Parting/sOs will likely shoot up and kick out a lot of players in the GOAT list.
This makes me think that the break between seasons 1 and 2 of an unusually busy year such as this was a bad time to release a GOAT list. I can easily see anything outside of the top five changing drastically depending on player performances.
Gotta do it again after Blizzcon before everyone switches to LotV!
On April 26 2015 11:23 y0su wrote: Been thinking about it a bit more...
I agree there's probably only a SMALL window where I would have called Taeja a "top 3" player... And his peak has never been that high (no KR LAN wins etc). However, there's a BIG window where I might have agreed to call him "top 5". His consistent domination at weekend tournaments is simply second to none. Since this article is more about "all time" best I can see that being a large factor.
Yes I agree his weekend tournament domination was second to none but once again he was also playing in Dreamhacks, Homestory Cups, and IEM's where he almost half the time didn't see a somewhat close to top tier korean until the RO8 or SEMI's which diminishes this "Dominance" in my mind since he's playing the likes of Has, Harstem, Kas, Happy, Socke, Mana, ToD, Targa, NIghtend, Ret, Goswser, Dimaga, TLO, Happy, GoOdy, etc. I'm sorry but that shit doesn't even come close to stacking up against the GSL. His wins are in tournaments where he basically walks to the semis to finals dominant or not it isnt that impressive given his competition
On April 26 2015 11:23 y0su wrote: Been thinking about it a bit more...
I agree there's probably only a SMALL window where I would have called Taeja a "top 3" player... And his peak has never been that high (no KR LAN wins etc). However, there's a BIG window where I might have agreed to call him "top 5". His consistent domination at weekend tournaments is simply second to none. Since this article is more about "all time" best I can see that being a large factor.
Yes I agree his weekend tournament domination was second to none but once again he was also playing in Dreamhacks, Homestory Cups, and IEM's where he almost half the time didn't see a somewhat close to top tier korean until the RO8 or SEMI's which diminishes this "Dominance" in my mind since he's playing the likes of Has, Harstem, Kas, Happy, Socke, Mana, ToD, Targa, NIghtend, Ret, Goswser, Dimaga, TLO, Happy, GoOdy, etc. I'm sorry but that shit doesn't even come close to stacking up against the GSL. His wins are in tournaments where he basically walks to the semis to finals dominant or not it isnt that impressive given his competition
I wonder what the list would be like we had all the KeSPA players playing every weekend tournament like Taeja did
On April 26 2015 11:23 y0su wrote: Been thinking about it a bit more...
I agree there's probably only a SMALL window where I would have called Taeja a "top 3" player... And his peak has never been that high (no KR LAN wins etc). However, there's a BIG window where I might have agreed to call him "top 5". His consistent domination at weekend tournaments is simply second to none. Since this article is more about "all time" best I can see that being a large factor.
Yes I agree his weekend tournament domination was second to none but once again he was also playing in Dreamhacks, Homestory Cups, and IEM's where he almost half the time didn't see a somewhat close to top tier korean until the RO8 or SEMI's which diminishes this "Dominance" in my mind since he's playing the likes of Has, Harstem, Kas, Happy, Socke, Mana, ToD, Targa, NIghtend, Ret, Goswser, Dimaga, TLO, Happy, GoOdy, etc. I'm sorry but that shit doesn't even come close to stacking up against the GSL. His wins are in tournaments where he basically walks to the semis to finals dominant or not it isnt that impressive given his competition
I wonder what the list would be like we had all the KeSPA players playing every weekend tournament like Taeja did
It would be retardedly different cause Taeja would have won 10% of what he did imo but we will never know Taeja is so over hyped based on his wins, I'm sorry but he has hardly ever beat elite competition to win an elite title to go along with that elite status so many seem to be happy to give him so easily I respect him fully don't get me wrong but NOBODY ON EARTH could convince me he is a top 3 all time SC2 player NOT A CHANCE!!!!!
A basic guideline is Blizzcons(Only 2013+) > GSL > OSL/SSL/Kespa Cup/WCS (2012 KR)/WCG KR/Blizzcon 2011 > International Tournaments
If we really strictly adhere to the above objective guideline, how can Taeja be ranked so high? Granted, he is a monster for weekend tourneys, but he has only IEMs, DHs & tonnes of HSC wins to show. He didn't win any of the premier tournaments be it Blizzcon, GSL, OSL,SSL, Kespa, WCS or WCG. And his WCS performance has always been abysmal, comparing to MC 2nd, 2nd & 1st WCS placing.
On April 26 2015 12:37 fx9 wrote: A basic guideline is Blizzcons(Only 2013+) > GSL > OSL/SSL/Kespa Cup/WCS (2012 KR)/WCG KR/Blizzcon 2011 > International Tournaments
If we really strictly adhere to the above objective guideline, how can Taeja be ranked so high? Granted, he is a monster for weekend tourneys, but he has only IEMs, DHs & tonnes of HSC wins to show. He didn't win any of the premier tournaments be it Blizzcon, GSL, OSL,SSL, Kespa, WCS or WCG. And his WCS performance has always been abysmal, comparing to MC 2nd, 2nd & 1st WCS placing.
The list could be even larger if I hadn't balanced the runs so heavily in MC's favor. All of this just to ask you this one question: at what point does prestige outweigh difficulty and peak consistency and hard fought tournament runs? At what point does preparation format mean more than sheer number of victories against harder opponents? In my opinion with Taeja and MC we crossed the point long ago and we still ended up at 5 major tournament runs left for Taeja (and even more if I had exactly balanced out the scales instead of blatantly favoring MC).
On April 26 2015 07:22 ZigguratOfUr wrote: One thing I'd disagree about on the methodology used to determine who the greatest player is, is that it is much too focused on individual runs. It doesn't factor in consistency as well (yes I'm thinking of PartinG), and in addition doesn't take into account tournament density during different periods. If the number of tournaments featuring the best in the world is larger, you evidently have more attempts to defeat them. So if you are the best in the world or close to it for the same amount of time as someone else was and there are more tournaments you would obviously be favoured over them with this ranking system. You probably should be as you've proved yourself more, but comparing runs one by one will magnify that difference which really isn't so significant.
I wonder what a good system would be to alleviate that issue. How many premier tournaments won relative to how many in the year?
So I ran a quick script on this idea, using this Liquipedia page http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments Only counting finals appearances in Premier tournaments, giving 100/number_of_tournaments_in_the_year points for a 1st place and 70/number_of_tournaments_in_the_year for 2nd place. Obviously this isn't great, maybe I can also weight it by prize money, and maybe give extra points to the tournaments in Korea. Also with this Code A Champion is worth the same points as Code S lol.
#1 Life with a score of 77 #2 Polt with a score of 49 #3 Zest with a score of 35 #4 PartinG with a score of 35 #5 TaeJa with a score of 34 #6 MC with a score of 31 #7 Mvp with a score of 28 #8 MMA with a score of 28 #9 Maru with a score of 23 #10 Trap with a score of 20 + Show Spoiler [More] +
#11 Bomber with a score of 20 #12 Hydra with a score of 18 #13 HerO with a score of 17 #14 Jaedong with a score of 16 #15 DongRaeGu with a score of 15 #16 HyuN with a score of 14 #17 Leenock with a score of 14 #18 sOs with a score of 13 #19 Stephano with a score of 13 #20 NaNiwa with a score of 13 #21 MarineKing with a score of 12 #22 Rain with a score of 12 #23 herO with a score of 12 #24 PuMa with a score of 11 #25 INnoVation with a score of 10 #26 soO with a score of 10 #27 Soulkey with a score of 10 #28 San with a score of 9 #29 NesTea with a score of 9 #30 viOLet with a score of 8 #31 Solar with a score of 8 #32 Nerchio with a score of 8 #33 Dear with a score of 8 #34 MaNa with a score of 8 #35 Symbol with a score of 7 #36 Flash with a score of 7 #37 First with a score of 7 #38 Oz with a score of 6 #39 LosirA with a score of 6 #40 ForGG with a score of 6 #41 DIMAGA with a score of 6 #42 StarDust with a score of 6 #43 Creator with a score of 6 #44 Snute with a score of 6 #45 Alicia with a score of 5 #46 ThorZaIN with a score of 5 #47 Squirtle with a score of 5 #48 HuK with a score of 5 #49 Revival with a score of 5 #50 YoDa with a score of 5 #51 jjakji with a score of 4 #52 Dream with a score of 4 #53 TOP with a score of 4 #54 White-Ra with a score of 4 #55 Moon with a score of 4 #56 Curious with a score of 3 #57 Sen with a score of 3 #58 RorO with a score of 3 #59 IdrA with a score of 3 #60 Sacsri with a score of 3 #61 GanZi with a score of 3 #62 Pigbaby with a score of 3 #63 duckdeok with a score of 3 #64 Puzzle with a score of 3 #65 Classic with a score of 3 #66 SuperNova with a score of 3 #67 AcE with a score of 3 #68 Ret with a score of 3 #69 SjoW with a score of 3 #70 Impact with a score of 2 #71 Grubby with a score of 2 #72 Genius with a score of 2 #73 Sound with a score of 2 #74 ByuN with a score of 2 #75 Adelscott with a score of 2 #76 Sora with a score of 2 #77 FruitDealer with a score of 2 #78 Lucky with a score of 2 #79 Sniper with a score of 2 #80 elfi with a score of 2 #81 Cure with a score of 2 #82 CoCa with a score of 2 #83 Bly with a score of 2 #84 VortiX with a score of 2 #85 Heart with a score of 2 #86 Sting with a score of 2 #87 YongHwa with a score of 2 #88 Tassadar with a score of 2 #89 ByuL with a score of 2 #90 InCa with a score of 2 #91 KiWiKaKi with a score of 2 #92 Seed with a score of 2 #93 July with a score of 2 #94 Scarlett with a score of 2 #95 MorroW with a score of 2 #96 aLive with a score of 2 #97 XiGua with a score of 2
function ScorePlayer(p) { var score=0; for(var i in p.years) { var y=p.years[i]; score += y.firsts * 100 / years[i].tournaments; score += y.seconds * 70 / years[i].tournaments; } return Math.round(score); }
$('h3').each(function(){ console.log($(this).text()); var year=$(this).text(); var t=$(this).next(); t.find('tbody tr').each(function(){ var c=$(this).find('td'); //console.log(c); var champ=''; var runnerup=''; var champs=[]; var runnerups=[]; try { champ=$(c[7].text(); runnerup=$(c[8].text(); champs=champ.split(/\s+/g); runnerups=runnerup.split(/\s+/g); } catch(e) { } for(var i in champs) { var n=champs[i]; if(n.length==0) continue; AddPlacing(n, 1, year); } for(var i in runnerups) { var n=runnerups[i]; if(n.length==0) continue; AddPlacing(n, 2, year); } }); });
for(var n in players) { var p=players[n]; p['score']=ScorePlayer(p); aplayers.push(p); } console.log('sorting players'); aplayers.sort(function(a,b) { return b.score-a.score; }); console.log('listing players'); var out='\n\n\n'; for(var i in aplayers) { var p=aplayers[i]; var place=i- -1; out+='#'+place+' '+p.name+' with a score of '+p.score+'\n'; } out+='\n'; console.log(out); //console.log(players);
So I updated this to weight towards bigger money tournaments and tournaments in Korea. It looks at premier tournament finals placings and scores them relative to how many tournaments were in that year.
#1 Life with a score of 153 #2 Polt with a score of 140 #3 PartinG with a score of 92 #4 Hydra with a score of 88 #5 Zest with a score of 80 #6 Mvp with a score of 79 #7 MMA with a score of 68 #8 MC with a score of 64 #9 Trap with a score of 51 #10 soO with a score of 47 + Show Spoiler [More] +
#11 TaeJa with a score of 46 #12 Maru with a score of 42 #13 Bomber with a score of 39 #14 INnoVation with a score of 38 #15 sOs with a score of 36 #16 DongRaeGu with a score of 35 #17 Jaedong with a score of 35 #18 MarineKing with a score of 33 #19 Leenock with a score of 31 #20 Rain with a score of 29 #21 HerO with a score of 28 #22 HyuN with a score of 28 #23 Soulkey with a score of 27 #24 Stephano with a score of 25 #25 NesTea with a score of 24 #26 Dear with a score of 22 #27 herO with a score of 22 #28 PuMa with a score of 20 #29 Symbol with a score of 19 #30 NaNiwa with a score of 19 #31 LosirA with a score of 16 #32 Squirtle with a score of 16 #33 San with a score of 15 #34 TOP with a score of 15 #35 Oz with a score of 14 #36 Creator with a score of 14 #37 RorO with a score of 13 #38 jjakji with a score of 13 #39 viOLet with a score of 13 #40 Classic with a score of 12 #41 MaNa with a score of 12 #42 First with a score of 12 #43 YoDa with a score of 12 #44 Nerchio with a score of 11 #45 Flash with a score of 11 #46 ForGG with a score of 10 #47 StarDust with a score of 10 #48 Solar with a score of 10 #49 Alicia with a score of 10 #50 Dream with a score of 9 #51 Snute with a score of 9 #52 Revival with a score of 9 #53 Seed with a score of 9 #54 Sniper with a score of 9 #55 Genius with a score of 9 #56 July with a score of 8 #57 InCa with a score of 8 #58 Pigbaby with a score of 7 #59 DIMAGA with a score of 7 #60 SuperNova with a score of 7 #61 ByuN with a score of 6 #62 Heart with a score of 6 #63 duckdeok with a score of 6 #64 HuK with a score of 6 #65 ThorZaIN with a score of 6 #66 Puzzle with a score of 6 #67 Curious with a score of 6 #68 GanZi with a score of 6 #69 White-Ra with a score of 6 #70 Tassadar with a score of 5 #71 Moon with a score of 5 #72 aLive with a score of 5 #73 ByuL with a score of 5 #74 Sora with a score of 4 #75 Lucky with a score of 4 #76 Sting with a score of 3 #77 AcE with a score of 3 #78 IdrA with a score of 3 #79 VortiX with a score of 3 #80 Cure with a score of 3 #81 Sen with a score of 3 #82 SjoW with a score of 3 #83 Adelscott with a score of 3 #84 Impact with a score of 3 #85 Ret with a score of 3 #86 XiGua with a score of 3 #87 Scarlett with a score of 3 #88 Sacsri with a score of 3 #89 CoCa with a score of 2 #90 elfi with a score of 2 #91 KiWiKaKi with a score of 2 #92 FruitDealer with a score of 2 #93 Sound with a score of 2 #94 Grubby with a score of 2 #95 MorroW with a score of 2 #96 YongHwa with a score of 2 #97 Bly with a score of 2
function ScorePlayer(p) { var score=0; for(var i in p.years) { var y=p.years[i]; score += p.years[i].score / years[i].tournaments; } return Math.round(score); }
$('h3').each(function(){ console.log($(this).text()); var year=$(this).text(); var t=$(this).next(); t.find('tbody tr').each(function(){ var c=$(this).find('td'); //console.log(c); var champ=''; var runnerup=''; var champs=[]; var runnerups=[]; var country=''; var money=10000; try { champ=$(c[7].text(); runnerup=$(c[8].text(); champs=champ.split(/\s+/g); runnerups=runnerup.split(/\s+/g); country=$(c[6].find('img').attr('alt'); money=$(c[4].text().replace(/[s$,]/g, ''); money=parseInt(money); } catch(e) { } var m=money; for(var i in champs) { var n=champs[i]; if(n.length==0) continue; AddPlacing(n, 1, year, country, m); m/=2; } var m=money; for(var i in runnerups) { var n=runnerups[i]; if(n.length==0) continue; AddPlacing(n, 2, year, country, m); m/=2; } }); });
for(var n in players) { var p=players[n]; p['score']=ScorePlayer(p); aplayers.push(p); } console.log('sorting players'); aplayers.sort(function(a,b) { return b.score-a.score; }); console.log('listing players'); var out='\n\n\n'; for(var i in aplayers) { var p=aplayers[i]; var place=i- -1; out+='#'+place+' '+p.name+' with a score of '+p.score+'\n'; } out+='\n'; console.log(out); //console.log(players);
This seems to give too much weight to tournaments in 2015 since it is only part of the way done. An interesting variation would be weighting later years more heavily to take into account how the competitiveness of the scene increased over the years, although I don't know any objective way of determining what the weights should be.
Taeja may not have won a GLS, but he has a pair of semi-final finishes where he lost to the eventual winner. Also, I don't know who you'd put in the top 3 (this is why I'm not making said list), but MC (#4) has a lot of poor showings at the same tournaments Taeja won. That's got to count somewhere.
It's kind of like saying Soo was the best sc2 player last year. At no singe point was he the best but constantly being the 2nd best (to changing winners) puts you in the discussion.
Speaking of discussions... if Taeja is not top 3 all time who easily bumps him? (Assuming Mvp and Life are top 2.)
On April 26 2015 11:23 y0su wrote: Been thinking about it a bit more...
I agree there's probably only a SMALL window where I would have called Taeja a "top 3" player... And his peak has never been that high (no KR LAN wins etc). However, there's a BIG window where I might have agreed to call him "top 5". His consistent domination at weekend tournaments is simply second to none. Since this article is more about "all time" best I can see that being a large factor.
Yes I agree his weekend tournament domination was second to none but once again he was also playing in Dreamhacks, Homestory Cups, and IEM's where he almost half the time didn't see a somewhat close to top tier korean until the RO8 or SEMI's which diminishes this "Dominance" in my mind since he's playing the likes of Has, Harstem, Kas, Happy, Socke, Mana, ToD, Targa, NIghtend, Ret, Goswser, Dimaga, TLO, Happy, GoOdy, etc. I'm sorry but that shit doesn't even come close to stacking up against the GSL. His wins are in tournaments where he basically walks to the semis to finals dominant or not it isnt that impressive given his competition
I wonder what the list would be like we had all the KeSPA players playing every weekend tournament like Taeja did
It would be retardedly different cause Taeja would have won 10% of what he did imo but we will never know Taeja is so over hyped based on his wins, I'm sorry but he has hardly ever beat elite competition to win an elite title to go along with that elite status so many seem to be happy to give him so easily I respect him fully don't get me wrong but NOBODY ON EARTH could convince me he is a top 3 all time SC2 player NOT A CHANCE!!!!!
Ummm......are you sure about that?
On April 26 2015 08:31 SLCMemento wrote: For all the TaeJa haters that talked about his no GSL wins, and who think he should be behind people like MC. Take this one comparison.
TaeJa - DH Winter 2013 - 1st - INnoVation, sOs, ForGG, HerO, MMA, Life, Life again
MC - 2nd GSL Win: July, San, July
I rest my case. Not all GSLs are created equal. And MC's 2nd GSL win was a joke compared to several of the tourneys TaeJa's won.
GSL's ARE the hardest tourney in the world IN GENERAL, but not by nearly as large a margin as people seem to think. And some are merely equal at best to top international events. Seed, Sniper, and Jjaki are GSL winners...who? Exactly.
Taeja also beat sOs, Life, and Innovation (without dropping a map to any of them btw) In 2013 DH Bucharest, but I guess that doesn't matter either. One of those useless ASUS ROG wins was by beating MC, i'm sure that's also irrelavent. His IEM Shenzen win went through Zest (in 2014 so good Zest) and Solar (2014 Solar). Look at MC's first GSL runhttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2010_Sony_Ericsson_StarCraft_II_Open_Season_3/Full_Bracket and tell me it's more impressive, please.
Lets also ignore the fact that he has a lifetime winning record against almost every player on this list, no that doesn't matter either because apparently no GSL=no skill.
Just because it was a GSL doesn't mean they had a harder road....maybe try looking at who they played? Or is that too hard for you......
Also, for the record I dislike Taeja and am a big MC fan. No i don't have a Terran bias either, i play Zerg....Life is my favorite player.......I just don't think all GSLs are created equal. Neither are all of Teaja's foreign wins, some had very easy roads through mostly foreigners....but I'd say at least 2 of his dreamhacks had harder opponents then MC's GSL's. (except that's apparently impossible....because the GSL makes every opponent you face worth WAY MORE credibility :/
I agree with you Vedeynevin, Taeja deserves to be top 5, but I do feel MC should be above Taeja.
MC's consistency is just too good. Taeja either gets knocked out of a tournament really early, or takes it deep. MC pretty much always goes deep into a tourney, so his consistency is imo, better than Taeja's. MC also essentially invented PvP back in early days of WoL, and he was the Protoss pioneer for quite a while (his sentry use was and is still out of this world). Only other person who did something revolutionary with P in early WoL days is San, who revolutionized HT use with warp-in storms back when the Amulet upgrade was still present.
Taeja on the other hand, has extremely good mechanics and excellent game sense, but he never revolutionized Terran in the sense that Mvp or MKP did.
Whether Taeja belongs at rank 3, or 4, or 5, who can say. But I'm glad he's high up on this list in recognition of what a *unique* player he is in the history of Starcraft 2. Taeja is, by a pretty huge margin, the best weekend tournament player in the history of the game. And sure, he benefited from having a team that ould send him to all those tournaments. But it's still an accomplishment, and a different type of accomplishment than being a great preparation tournament player. That's something I think we should keep separate from whether the tournaments he succeeded in had a lower average player quality than your typical GSL.
And yes, the two players that will come in at ranks 1 and 2 were great preparation players who could *also* show up and dominate a weekend tournament when the mood struck. That's why they deserve their rank. But Taeja's position makes perfect sense as a representation of his distinctive historical signifiance.
On April 26 2015 13:06 jojamon wrote: I agree with you Vedeynevin, Taeja deserves to be top 5, but I do feel MC should be above Taeja.
MC's consistency is just too good. Taeja either gets knocked out of a tournament really early, or takes it deep. MC pretty much always goes deep into a tourney, so his consistency is imo, better than Taeja's. MC also essentially invented PvP back in early days of WoL, and he was the Protoss pioneer for quite a while (his sentry use was and is still out of this world). Only other person who did something revolutionary with P in early WoL days is San, who revolutionized HT use with warp-in storms back when the Amulet upgrade was still present.
Taeja on the other hand, has extremely good mechanics and excellent game sense, but he never revolutionized Terran in the sense that Mvp or MKP did.
Yeah, I have MC 3 as well. I was just really frustrated with people completely dismissing Taeja because of his lack of GSL wins, and then claiming liquid bias. It's obvious Stuchio put a ton of work into this, and his arguement for Taeja is very compelling. On that note, thanks Stuchio, I've enjoyed every article so far and I'm looking forward to reading the top two.
On April 26 2015 13:06 jojamon wrote: I agree with you Vedeynevin, Taeja deserves to be top 5, but I do feel MC should be above Taeja.
MC's consistency is just too good. Taeja either gets knocked out of a tournament really early, or takes it deep. MC pretty much always goes deep into a tourney, so his consistency is imo, better than Taeja's. MC also essentially invented PvP back in early days of WoL, and he was the Protoss pioneer for quite a while (his sentry use was and is still out of this world). Only other person who did something revolutionary with P in early WoL days is San, who revolutionized HT use with warp-in storms back when the Amulet upgrade was still present.
Taeja on the other hand, has extremely good mechanics and excellent game sense, but he never revolutionized Terran in the sense that Mvp or MKP did.
Yeah, I have MC 3 as well. I was just really frustrated with people completely dismissing Taeja because of his lack of GSL wins, and then claiming liquid bias. It's obvious Stuchio put a ton of work into this, and his arguement for Taeja is very compelling. On that note, thanks Stuchio, I've enjoyed every article so far and I'm looking forward to reading the top two.
On April 26 2015 08:31 SLCMemento wrote: For all the TaeJa haters that talked about his no GSL wins, and who think he should be behind people like MC. Take this one comparison.
TaeJa - DH Winter 2013 - 1st - INnoVation, sOs, ForGG, HerO, MMA, Life, Life again
MC - 2nd GSL Win: July, San, July
I rest my case. Not all GSLs are created equal. And MC's 2nd GSL win was a joke compared to several of the tourneys TaeJa's won.
GSL's ARE the hardest tourney in the world IN GENERAL, but not by nearly as large a margin as people seem to think. And some are merely equal at best to top international events. Seed, Sniper, and Jjaki are GSL winners...who? Exactly.
I'll have no bashing on jjakji please. November 2011 Code S finals was the greatest series in SC2 history
Taeja possesses great skill, no question about it. But he never achieved much in Korea. I don't see how you can put a player who has never made a finals in Korea above MC, who not only has many international achievements but also 2 GSLs and earned almost twice as much prize money.
Another week for #1 and #2 are you trying to kill me?! On a different note I wonder who is going to be out of top 15 MVP or Life, because there's only room for Clide and one more person.
On April 26 2015 16:23 nimdil wrote: They way this lists unfolds, it feels like this is more "Strongest players of all time" rather than "Greatest..."
You're quite right. It's hard to call TaeJa great even with 11 premier wins, when you know that that there is 3 Homestory Cups but no GSLs. I mean, the most prestigious tournament TaeJa won was Dreamhack: Winter, but it is still like a Blizzcon for those who succeed only in Dreamhacks. But calling TaeJa top 5 strongest player in history of SC2 can be hardly argued against.
I like to know what happens if a Foreigner suddenly appeared in 2014 and won ~10 titles until now (incl WCS S1, S2, S3, Blizzcon 2014, IEM 100k 2014 or 2015 etc) but no single title in korea.
I just want to say that I got the ten players in the top ten correctly, and my only mistakes were swapping Zest and Nestea, and MMA and MC. If Life is first I will have swapped him and MVP as well, if not those are the only things I got wrong. That's probably the closest to a correct list, right?
On April 26 2015 17:31 Dingodile wrote: I like to know what happens if a Foreigner suddenly appeared in 2014 and won ~10 titles until now (incl WCS S1, S2, S3, Blizzcon 2014, IEM 100k 2014 or 2015 etc) but no single title in korea.
Well the only thing Taeja has out of that list is IEM...the fact that, aside from no korean wins, he doesn't have any wcs/blizzon wins just cements his dubious case. It would be interesting to see someone pull it off, but it's highly doubtful that would happen.
Man these ranking tear at my soul because there are some players you just don't feel right excluding from the list... Parting, Soulkey, sOs spring to mind immediately but there's definitely others. But the only one I can really see being removed would be Leenock.
I agree with these three and their ranking. Taeja didn't just won his tournaments, he crushed people so hard you could accurately predict him not dropping a single map. Just look at DH Bucharest 2013. Dreamhack open summer 2014. He not only won a lot but he often won VERY dominating. Tournaments with Taeja became less fun to watch for me because you knew everyone on his side of the bracket was doomed. He deserves the #3 spot. People give korean leagues too much credit.
On April 26 2015 18:36 NasusAndDraven wrote: Now i want to see Greatest Players of All Time, no koreans edition. Something i would actually find interesting.
That's ridiculous, why make a list of players who are okay but no where near the greatest? I don't understand why people do not find players "interesting" just because they are WAY better than others, the race is irrelevant. I found your post pretty racist actually.
As for the list, I don't think Taeja should be on the top 10, maybe top 15. Just my opinion though!
I've watched everybody on the top ten list stomp their way through tournaments, and I'll say this; only Mvp and Life looked as invincible as Taeja during their runs. This was a guy who literally pre-emptive GGed two games in a row in a tournament because he knew he could win the next 3 in a row. He may not have won a GSL, but holy shit he made GSL ro4 players look like trash sometimes.
On April 26 2015 01:09 sc2chronic wrote: thast like the last straw on taeja. how many more biased articles will TL write that has taeja highly overrated? wouldd love to hear again that its just the "authors opinion". this article just lost so much credibility.
This entire article was devised and written by Stuchiu on his own. If you think some mysterious TL overlord influenced his decision to place Taeja at number 3 you're a nut case. Yeah I would have had him at 4 but Stuchiu has been great at explaining his criteria and sticking to it. This list has more credibility than any other power rank we've ever had
On April 26 2015 19:13 Whatson wrote: I've watched everybody on the top ten list stomp their way through tournaments, and I'll say this; only Mvp and Life looked as invincible as Taeja during their runs. This was a guy who literally pre-emptive GGed two games in a row in a tournament because he knew he could win the next 3 in a row. He may not have won a GSL, but holy shit he made GSL ro4 players look like trash sometimes.
Peak Bogus is still till this day the scariest period imo
On April 26 2015 19:13 Whatson wrote: I've watched everybody on the top ten list stomp their way through tournaments, and I'll say this; only Mvp and Life looked as invincible as Taeja during their runs. This was a guy who literally pre-emptive GGed two games in a row in a tournament because he knew he could win the next 3 in a row. He may not have won a GSL, but holy shit he made GSL ro4 players look like trash sometimes.
Peak Bogus is still till this day the scariest period imo
i don't know, i said it already, but i think peak taeja and life might be scarier. mvp definitely is, considering that he while on a heavy downfall almost beat innovation while he was at his peak.
I dont see how people can complain about Taeja being in front of MC. Yes he has no korean title and this is the reason why he can never be placed in front of life or mvp, who both have massive achievments and korean titles. But while a Korean Title is an important achievment it does not outshine everything. Otherwise you would have to place someone like seed or sniper in front of Taeja, because they got a Korean titel. And I dont think anyone in their right mind would do that, because they have nothing else. So you have to weight Korean titles against other achievments.
MC won 2 GSLs but both of them where during a time when foreigners like Jinro could still make top 4. GSL was much less competitive at that time. MC made another final during the hard gsl times but which Taeja did not. But it is not like Taeja completely failed in GSL. He made 2 Top 4 finishes.
Taeja won eleven Premier titles, while MC only won 6. A lot of MCs titles where from the early, less competitive time of SC2, while Taejas titles are all from the years past 2012. Yes some of Taejas titles where against relativly weak competition. 3 of his titles are Homestory Cups. But MC was present at every single one of this Homestory Cups. In fact he went to every single Homestory Cup after the 3rd one and only won once. So you cannot say that Homestory cups are so easy, that they dont count, because MC would have won them all if he had been there, because he was there and he did not win. All of Taejas titles are from foreing tournaments, but MC is also a player who atendet lots of foreign torunaments and he only won 4. So you might say they are easy wins, but apperently they where to hard for MC.
And while some foreign Torurnaments have relativly easy competition other have not. How can Taejas DH Bukarest run in 2013 not be as impressiv as a 2010 GSL victory when he did not lose a map in the whole tournament and did beat life and Innovation in the process.
And while Taeja never won a WCS event either he made great runs in some of them, beating Rain and Innovation in their primes at the 2013 Season two Final or Soo and innovation at last Blizzcon.
Although it might sound like it I do not underestimate how hard it is to win a Korean Tournament. Players like Maru or Zest, who have much less titles than Taeja, have a good chance to be placed bevore him such a list in the future, if they continue to impress in Korea. But unless MC wins another GSL or SSL I dont see him infront of Taeja. Two pre 2012 GSL Titles just do not outway everything else.
On April 26 2015 18:36 NasusAndDraven wrote: Now i want to see Greatest Players of All Time, no koreans edition. Something i would actually find interesting.
That's ridiculous, why make a list of players who are okay but no where near the greatest? I don't understand why people do not find players "interesting" just because they are WAY better than others, the race is irrelevant. I found your post pretty racist actually.
As for the list, I don't think Taeja should be on the top 10, maybe top 15. Just my opinion though!
The problem is not that koreans are better. The problem is that they are so shut in their own community. Not only is there the language barrier, but with the slight exception of MC none of these top 15 players actively communicate with the international community, atleast not publicly. The only good interviews you get from them is when they are directly talking to other koreans, so much more awkward from translators. And they would never come on their free time to express their feelings on tl.net unlike many forgeiner players.
Like if there was made a top 15 forgeiners list, most of those players would have directly talked to me over the internet. With koreans I can never connect the same way, because they do not want to, nor they could. It would be fine if there was this one "silent" guy, but its a problem when its literally everyone important.
I guess the same could be said about the russian community. Like even when bratOK was doing good i never cheered for him because he was not one of us, he was part of the russian community. Koreans are part of the korean community. And most of europe and NA the international community.
On April 26 2015 18:45 Entropy137 wrote: Don't agree with Taeja ahead of MC.
Neither do I, but it's fine. MC still has earned the most money in SC2 which must mean something. Not only that, but he also won the hardest Korean Tournament twice. Argueing that the players back then weren't as strong doesn't make his achievements worse.
On April 26 2015 07:15 Fuell wrote: parting should really be ahead of leenock, mkp, rain
It's an pretty objective list based on research. But clearly your 'feeling' should have more value
dw about this guy he loves Parting and he thinks Life is a mediocre Korean Zerg
I don't love PartinG and I totally agree with him. Stuchiu is an excellent writer and clearly knows his shit, but PartinG at a minimum should be where Rain is imo.
He's better than Rain in almost every category except for maybe innovation.
Actually I rate Parting higher in innovation. It's his runs that hurt him.
How? Rain has both of his OSL runs (1st and 2nd) but PartinG has a respectable 2nd in the recent GSL which is comparable to at least one OSL. Especially considering he took Life of all people to game 7 in the finals.
Rain won WCS Asia, but PartinG got 2nd there and then won the WCS Global.
Rain won the 2013 Hotsix cup, but PartinG got 2nd in the 2012 Blizzard Cup. Which had to be GOM's most rigorous end-of-the-year event what with having a bo3, round-robin group stage, AND it was dominated by Zergs with BL/infestor. As opposed to a ro8 4-day event that Rain won.
Then there's the 2013 Global Championship where he narrowly lost 3-4 to Zest in the finals (he went through the qualifiers too).
Rain's OSL win is still quite an advantage even considering all of the above, but surely PartinG makes up for the gap in having numerous wins/high placings abroad compared to Rain.
==
PartinG is also more consistent than Rain as well. Despite only about 8 months or so separating them in terms of their respective ascents to being relevant, PartinG has held up longer as a top-tier player. He has 7 ro8+ code S runs compared to Rain's 5. As well as the longest code S streak and he didn't get two code S seeds to put him on track like Rain did either.
The WCG run is completely fraudulent.
he beat combatex in a bo3. no other player has achieved this at a international tournament
On April 26 2015 07:15 Fuell wrote: parting should really be ahead of leenock, mkp, rain
It's an pretty objective list based on research. But clearly your 'feeling' should have more value
dw about this guy he loves Parting and he thinks Life is a mediocre Korean Zerg
I don't love PartinG and I totally agree with him. Stuchiu is an excellent writer and clearly knows his shit, but PartinG at a minimum should be where Rain is imo.
He's better than Rain in almost every category except for maybe innovation.
Actually I rate Parting higher in innovation. It's his runs that hurt him.
How? Rain has both of his OSL runs (1st and 2nd) but PartinG has a respectable 2nd in the recent GSL which is comparable to at least one OSL. Especially considering he took Life of all people to game 7 in the finals.
Rain won WCS Asia, but PartinG got 2nd there and then won the WCS Global.
Rain won the 2013 Hotsix cup, but PartinG got 2nd in the 2012 Blizzard Cup. Which had to be GOM's most rigorous end-of-the-year event what with having a bo3, round-robin group stage, AND it was dominated by Zergs with BL/infestor. As opposed to a ro8 4-day event that Rain won.
Then there's the 2013 Global Championship where he narrowly lost 3-4 to Zest in the finals (he went through the qualifiers too).
Rain's OSL win is still quite an advantage even considering all of the above, but surely PartinG makes up for the gap in having numerous wins/high placings abroad compared to Rain.
==
PartinG is also more consistent than Rain as well. Despite only about 8 months or so separating them in terms of their respective ascents to being relevant, PartinG has held up longer as a top-tier player. He has 7 ro8+ code S runs compared to Rain's 5. As well as the longest code S streak and he didn't get two code S seeds to put him on track like Rain did either.
The WCG run is completely fraudulent.
he beat combatex in a bo3. no other player has achieved this at a international tournament
he also dropped a game to combatex in an international tournament :b
That's funny I remember games from MMA, MC, Mvp, Life, Parting, Innovation; games that made me think I LOVE STARCRAFT. Yet I don't remember ONE game from Taeja that made me react that way.
On April 26 2015 21:09 YuiHirasawa wrote: That's funny I remember games from MMA, MC, Mvp, Life, Parting, Innovation; games that made me think I LOVE STARCRAFT. Yet I don't remember ONE game from Taeja that made me react that way.
Funny. Exactly how stuchiu wrote, there's nothing flashy about TaeJa's playstyle, nothing that makes him stand out, nothing that will catch your eye and make you love him, in contrast to all those players you listed. And still, at his best, none of them are much better than TaeJa. So he was always doing something right.
At his peak Taeja had fearsome mechanics relative to his peers of the time, it's hard to retrospectively put your mind back to that period of the game and expunge the Kespa switchers from your mind but he was a monster.
IPLTac finals are still up there for me among the greatest Starcraft feats of all time
On April 26 2015 21:09 YuiHirasawa wrote: That's funny I remember games from MMA, MC, Mvp, Life, Parting, Innovation; games that made me think I LOVE STARCRAFT. Yet I don't remember ONE game from Taeja that made me react that way.
So TLO, SjoW, Fuzer, and Naama should also be ahead of Taeja?
Y'all so salty. Makes me wonder why I thought SC community is better than Dota's. Great article. Tbh the only other player with such fearsome auras as TaeJa's were Life and MVP for me, so I guess I'm biased.
On April 26 2015 19:13 Whatson wrote: I've watched everybody on the top ten list stomp their way through tournaments, and I'll say this; only Mvp and Life looked as invincible as Taeja during their runs. This was a guy who literally pre-emptive GGed two games in a row in a tournament because he knew he could win the next 3 in a row. He may not have won a GSL, but holy shit he made GSL ro4 players look like trash sometimes.
Peak Bogus is still till this day the scariest period imo
As a TaeJa fan I'll say one thing...peak Life is out of this fucking world..
Since everyone is pulling stuff out their asses I'm gonna do it too and say that MC is overrated as fuck. Last time I was impressed with his play was in 2012.
Looking at some of the criteria though I'd debate some of the Tier ratings really. IEM 2012 World Championship is Tier 3, really? Based on what? The players at it were arguably a lot better than most MLG's or NASL and the prize pool a lot higher than many of your Tier 2 (MLG Championships etc) and almost comparable with T1.
I simply put, just do not agree with the tier ratings here.
On April 26 2015 21:09 YuiHirasawa wrote: That's funny I remember games from MMA, MC, Mvp, Life, Parting, Innovation; games that made me think I LOVE STARCRAFT. Yet I don't remember ONE game from Taeja that made me react that way.
You really need to go and rewatch Taeja vs Rain on Whirlwind from last year, then come back with your love of TvP rekindled.
On April 26 2015 21:09 YuiHirasawa wrote: That's funny I remember games from MMA, MC, Mvp, Life, Parting, Innovation; games that made me think I LOVE STARCRAFT. Yet I don't remember ONE game from Taeja that made me react that way.
On April 26 2015 21:09 YuiHirasawa wrote: That's funny I remember games from MMA, MC, Mvp, Life, Parting, Innovation; games that made me think I LOVE STARCRAFT. Yet I don't remember ONE game from Taeja that made me react that way.
not that this metric means anything, but if you didn't like Taeja vs. Innovation on Newkirk in 2013 you're bad at watching starcraft.
On April 26 2015 21:09 YuiHirasawa wrote: That's funny I remember games from MMA, MC, Mvp, Life, Parting, Innovation; games that made me think I LOVE STARCRAFT. Yet I don't remember ONE game from Taeja that made me react that way.
You know there is an entire list of his greatest games in the article?
On April 26 2015 21:09 YuiHirasawa wrote: That's funny I remember games from MMA, MC, Mvp, Life, Parting, Innovation; games that made me think I LOVE STARCRAFT. Yet I don't remember ONE game from Taeja that made me react that way.
I don't agree with Taeja's placement either(Taeja over MC? someones been trippin'), but Taeja vs Innovation is still the greatest sc2 match of all time
On April 26 2015 22:10 Mallidon wrote: Not sure how Taeja beat MC here...
Looking at some of the criteria though I'd debate some of the Tier ratings really. IEM 2012 World Championship is Tier 3, really? Based on what? The players at it were arguably a lot better than most MLG's or NASL and the prize pool a lot higher than many of your Tier 2 (MLG Championships etc) and almost comparable with T1.
I simply put, just do not agree with the tier ratings here.
Prize Pool did not factor in.
Here are the relevant players that went here: Top 10 Z Violet Top 10 T Puma Top 10 T Supernova Top 5 T MMA Top 5 P MC Maybe Top 10 P in JYP and Killer
Now let me show you a tier 1 MLG (MLG Provdence):
DRG - Top 3 Z Top 5 T - MMA Top 5 T - Bomber Top 5 T - Puma (The difference was he was in his prime here while at IEM he fell off) Top 10 T - Rain Top 5 P - Naniwa Top 5 P - Huk Top 5 P - HerO Top 5 P - Oz Top 10 P - Puzzle Top 1 T - Mvp Top 10 T - Ganzi Top 5 T - MKP Top 10 T - sC Top 10 T - Keen Top 5 Z - Losira Top 10 Z - idra Top 3 Z - Leenock Top 3 Z - Nestea Top 10 Z - Violet And Haypro played the tournament of his life.
If you can convince me that IEM was on the same level as one of the tier 1 tournaments I listed, please go ahead.
On April 26 2015 22:10 Mallidon wrote: Not sure how Taeja beat MC here...
Looking at some of the criteria though I'd debate some of the Tier ratings really. IEM 2012 World Championship is Tier 3, really? Based on what? The players at it were arguably a lot better than most MLG's or NASL and the prize pool a lot higher than many of your Tier 2 (MLG Championships etc) and almost comparable with T1.
I simply put, just do not agree with the tier ratings here.
No, 2012 wasn't really stacked by any maesure. Their most prestigious players were MC and MMA. But beside that - PuMa was already declining, viOLet was best of the rest - and the rest was definitely not championship caliber. NASL3 is also tier 3. NASL1 players were - at the time - fairly strong.
Trap - Top 5 P (Played at that level) Polt - Top 5 T Stardust - Top 10 P HerO - Top 10 P Alicia - ? Hard to rate, but he rates somewhere between Top 15- top 10, Bomber - Top 5 T Heart - Top 10 T Hyun - Top 5 Z Jaedong - Top 10 Z DRG - Top 5 Z Life - Top 5 Z Leenock - Top 10 Z And this is without listing the increased depth of middle tier players.
So if you can convince me that IEM WC was better than this, than please do.
Well I was enjoying this series until Taeja was ranked #3, and the credibility of the whole thing fell to pieces as badly as Taeja did when he had to play in Korea again.
I never understood the preparation format argument, it may be more entertaining sure but I would argue that beating the same amount of people all in one day is much more challenging and demanding then coming up with a way to beat them over the course of a week Of course, i don't really think Taeja deserves to be 3, maybe 4 or 5, but not 3.
MMA and Polt being that close...wouldn't MMA's teamleague accomplishments carry him over? Now granted I understand that teamleagues weren't part of the criteria, but MMA was the ace that won Slayers back to back GSTL titles, and a consistent star all three seasons in the Acer Teamstory Cup
On April 26 2015 19:13 Whatson wrote: I've watched everybody on the top ten list stomp their way through tournaments, and I'll say this; only Mvp and Life looked as invincible as Taeja during their runs. This was a guy who literally pre-emptive GGed two games in a row in a tournament because he knew he could win the next 3 in a row. He may not have won a GSL, but holy shit he made GSL ro4 players look like trash sometimes.
Peak Bogus is still till this day the scariest period imo
On April 26 2015 21:09 YuiHirasawa wrote: That's funny I remember games from MMA, MC, Mvp, Life, Parting, Innovation; games that made me think I LOVE STARCRAFT. Yet I don't remember ONE game from Taeja that made me react that way.
On April 27 2015 00:03 Haighstrom wrote: Well I was enjoying this series until Taeja was ranked #3, and the credibility of the whole thing fell to pieces as badly as Taeja did when he had to play in Korea again.
Taeja has shown that he can do well in GSL bevore the Start of WCS with two semifinals and other decent finishes. Just because he never won one before he left for WCS America does not mean that he never did well. Its stupid to critisise his rank in an all time list, based on a few games he played in 2015. Especially considering that he did not go to any other torunaments and might even be in semi retirement. MVP also dropped out of GSL and failed to qualify for multiple seasons after his time as a top player. That does not demish his other achievments. The same is true for Taejas recent results
On April 26 2015 21:09 YuiHirasawa wrote: That's funny I remember games from MMA, MC, Mvp, Life, Parting, Innovation; games that made me think I LOVE STARCRAFT. Yet I don't remember ONE game from Taeja that made me react that way.
Then my friend I don't think you have watched Taeja play. Taeja vs Inno WCS Season 2 global finals 2013, Taeja vs Zest game 3 IEM Toronto, Taeja vs Life (many times) Taeja vs soO, Taeja vs Rain were all amazing and are listed for your pleasure in the OP
That doesn't even include some fantastic games from IPL TAC 3 like Taeja vs MKP or Taeja vs Bomber
On April 27 2015 01:05 Kevn23 wrote: No Flash?? what.. But Soo or Jaedong with so many 2nd place finishes; I'd thought at least one of them would be in the top 15.
On April 26 2015 21:09 YuiHirasawa wrote: That's funny I remember games from MMA, MC, Mvp, Life, Parting, Innovation; games that made me think I LOVE STARCRAFT. Yet I don't remember ONE game from Taeja that made me react that way.
Didn't he play that base trade vs. Protoss where the Protoss had the poor idea of taking his new base at the natural of Foxtrot Labs and got completely destroyed?
On April 26 2015 21:09 YuiHirasawa wrote: That's funny I remember games from MMA, MC, Mvp, Life, Parting, Innovation; games that made me think I LOVE STARCRAFT. Yet I don't remember ONE game from Taeja that made me react that way.
Didn't he play that base trade vs. Protoss where the Protoss had the poor idea of taking his new base at the natural of Foxtrot Labs and got completely destroyed?
'Cause that was a great game.
Yep, against Zest in IEM Toronto, game 3. TaeJa played that incredibly well.
There rankings were a blast to read. Thank you for the effort
Now for the obligatory personal opinion, Leenock (or sOs at 16th for that matter) over Parting seems off... I can't fathom how Parting isn't part of a top 15 sc2 players. But I obviously didn't put as much though and effort in this as you did. (Polt is pretty high too imo)
I think Taeja deserves that #3 though. At his peak (and it was a hell of a long one) he was god like in those week end tournies. It takes a special set of skills (and cool) to always destroy the opposition time after time.
20 pages of thread, and people are still complaining about Taeja and Parting -_- This is not the best GSL players of all time. If you are honest, you should admit that Taeja is the undisputed king of week end LANs. He is the strongest player under fatigue, jet lag, and with no preparation for some years. And these conditions are part of the game too.
Anyway, great series Stuchiu! The polt writeup contains some typoes, it was harder to read, but judging by the size of this one, I bet he's your fpersonnal favorite over MC and Taeja :-)
On April 26 2015 23:18 johnbongham wrote: Why do I get the impression that this entire series of article is just to create controversy by putting life ahead of mvp.
The timing of the article (right after Life's latest GSL win) makes me think that Life will be #1. It seems like the article was waiting in the wings for Life to get that additional Korean win, which could arguably make him stand neck and neck with MVP. Which I have no problem with, as he's my favorite player =P... I did start watching from 2013 Blizzcon though so I have no sense of MVP's reign.
On April 26 2015 23:18 johnbongham wrote: Why do I get the impression that this entire series of article is just to create controversy by putting life ahead of mvp.
The timing of the article (right after Life's latest GSL win) makes me think that Life will be #1. It seems like the article was waiting in the wings for Life to get that additional Korean win, which could arguably make him stand neck and neck with MVP. Which I have no problem with, as he's my favorite player =P... I did start watching from 2013 Blizzcon though so I have no sense of MVP's reign.
You have missed a great period. I have honestly also myself missed a lot of early GSLs (because of not having any idea I can watch it mostly), but I still remember the fantastic aura around Mvp. Never again I have seen a player who would be so clearly THE best in the game, period. Many players have reached "sooo good", but never the Mvp level.
On April 26 2015 23:18 johnbongham wrote: Why do I get the impression that this entire series of article is just to create controversy by putting life ahead of mvp.
The timing of the article (right after Life's latest GSL win) makes me think that Life will be #1. It seems like the article was waiting in the wings for Life to get that additional Korean win, which could arguably make him stand neck and neck with MVP. Which I have no problem with, as he's my favorite player =P... I did start watching from 2013 Blizzcon though so I have no sense of MVP's reign.
You have missed a great period. I have honestly also myself missed a lot of early GSLs (because of not having any idea I can watch it mostly), but I still remember the fantastic aura around Mvp. Never again I have seen a player who would be so clearly THE best in the game, period. Many players have reached "sooo good", but never the Mvp level.
I think this greatest players was really well done but feels narrow in scope. Are we just going to robotically judge achievements or also think about influence and style a little bit.
Couldn't you have thrown foreigners a bone and made Stephano #15? I think his run was pretty impressive, he even was defeating well known Korean pros and was the best hope Europe ever had IMO. Is Leenock really more influential and greater then Stephano?
You could add Huk at #15 as well. Remember Huk won every MLG until Koreans entered it, if it wasn't for Huk (also his Idra feud) North America would give zero shits about SC2 I think. After we discovered all the amazing Korean talent most people grew to love them more then foreigners but maybe Team Liquid could have just recognized that these guys were Europe and NA's hero.
To me more people will care passionately about Stephano or Huk then Leenock. No offense. Also sure in a NBA list 13 of the top 15 players will be black but at least Steve Nash and Larry Bird will be in there too. Seems like the haters of SC2 were dead on right when they ask 'why even watch SC2 when you know what country the winner will always be from' you could try to show hope to the foreigner scene but you won't even recognize it.
Maybe you just need to do a Best Foreigners ever list? That would be cool. All I can tell you is Stephano's run where he defeated Korean after Korean and most foreigners was my favorite time in Starcraft II.
I don't mean offense to any fan of Leenock but please just recognize I am only trying to advocate why a foreigner should have been included because I believe life is more then just how much trophies you've got.
When I first made this list and used the eye test, Taeja was actually much further down the list
And thats where he should have stayed.
This is where I started to balance things out. In GSL Open MC beat a Top 5 Z, Top 2 T, Top 3 T, Top 5 T. In Taeja’s 2013 GSL run he beat a Top 5 T, Top 5 Z, Top 1 Z. I then added in his Red Bull 2nd place to even out the prestige as in terms of difficulty Taeja’s run in 2013 was harder than MC’s run in 2010.
Next is MC’s March GSL win. He beat a Top 3 Z, Top 2 P, Top 3 Z. I compared this to Taeja’s Top 4 2012 run. He beat Top 1 T, Top 3 Z, Top 3 T, Top 2 Z. In sheer numbers MC again had the harder path. So I then added in Taeja’s ASUS Rog Summer to make up the difference in prestige (though Taeja’s opponent list now dwarf’s MC’s).
Why you "add tournaments to even out" the prestige or something, specially when you compare the Red Bull thing to the GSL? You can't even compare them properly because the Lan events are on a weekend wheres GSL gives you time to prepare strategies, and thats where taeja gets a lead when he shouldn't have gotten it.
There is a saying among the SC2 community called the Liquid Bias. It is the belief that the writers are inherently biased to Liquid players. Here is the truth: I have always tried to be biased against Taeja. I had put him below Zest in my first draft. But weight for weight, pound for pound, player for player, Taeja’s paths and achievements have constantly outshone things like prestige and preparation formats. My logic forced me kicking and screaming against this placing, but the hard facts remain. I spent tens of hours trying to find any excuse to put Taeja lower. I found none. Taeja’s volume of work is just too strong to ignore for arbitrary feelings like prestige. Now that I have thoroughly analyzed Taeja's entire career compared to the other greats of all time I finally understand what Coach Park meant when he said, “The hell kind of player was this?”
Here is my theory. You were obsesed on not having taeja that high on the list for a lot of reasons, one of them being the suppoused "TL bias". But then, you tried to see things "objectively", and to do so you started to balance out things to favour taeja and try to see him on a more neutral spopt, but what happened is that although you tried to balance it, you started to subconsiously give too much credit to Taeja for certain things and thats why it ended up being favored on your list. Frankly, if Mc was 3rd and Taeja 4th it would be fine.
You say Taeja won agaisn't harder oponents on LAN, but again, thats not comparable. When you have time to prepare for an oponent your skill and yor strenghts can vary a lot, and there is much more to it than just the skill of the player, there is strategy, the coach, the team, the mental strenght of the player and so on, you cannot simply say that the more difficult players beat the prestigue, because that prestigue comes from somewhere. Again you can't compare.
Taeja never was at a live final in korea, and no, he was not consistent for 1.5 years. The very "summer of taeja" thing, shows that he was consisten only during a short time, then went to a slump, and then back again to the top. You can't say he was consistent for 1.5 years.
actually, taeja was fairly consistently top 1 or top 2 terran since HotS release. summer of taeja was jsut his peak, doesn't mean he sucked outside of it. Blizzcon and both his GSL ro4 runs were during winter. dreamhack winter 2013 (which was stacked as fuck) was in... well, winter.
I had to log in just to ask why the hate? I mean, seriously, in complete honesty, why? This has been discussed to death, back to life, and then back to death. TaeJa is #3 "Greatest of All Time" according to Stuchiu. No one else. This was a personal endeavor on his part to reveal who HE thought were the top 15 in the world since SC2. GSL or no GSL, TaeJa is a force to be reckoned with. When he was forced back to South Korea, everyone wanted a piece of him. And he has repeatedly beaten the best of the best. As was stated previously, he has a winning record over most of the people Stuchiu listed. Stuchiu also stated that he tried to put TaeJa lower, but couldn't justify it. You don't go 17-0 during a tournament run and get ranked last. You also don't play potentially game of the year matches every time you enter a booth, and be ranked last. Furthermore, you don't win 11 Premier tournaments regardless of the format, and be ranked last.
TaeJa earned his ranking through the sheer amount of work he has put in, the amount of wins he has, and the amount of times people have been at a loss for words to describe his play. You can make a case for Polt, Life, MVP, Zest, sOs, etc and clearly define what makes them great. You can't do that with TaeJa. He is truly a one of a kind player and barring a WCS/GSL trophy, he deserves the ranking he received.
Stuchiu, I read most of what you wrote and damn man, heart was fluttering. Wonderful writing and justification for each one. I went back and watched the matches you linked and remember exactly where I was when each was being played and how I felt about each one. Thank you.
EDIT: During one of his streams, I asked TaeJa what he thought of the list and he said that he and PartinG talked about it. No PartinG, no GG.
On April 27 2015 04:28 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: I had to log in just to ask why the hate? I mean, seriously, in complete honesty, why? This has been discussed to death, back to life, and then back to death. TaeJa is #3 "Greatest of All Time" according to Stuchiu. No one else. This was a personal endeavor on his part to reveal who HE thought were the top 15 in the world since SC2. GSL or no GSL, TaeJa is a force to be reckoned with. When he was forced back to South Korea, everyone wanted a piece of him. And he has repeatedly beaten the best of the best. As was stated previously, he has a winning record over most of the people Stuchiu listed. Stuchiu also stated that he tried to put TaeJa lower, but couldn't justify it. You don't go 17-0 during a tournament run and get ranked last. You also don't play potentially game of the year matches every time you enter a booth, and be ranked last. Furthermore, you don't win 11 Premier tournaments regardless of the format, and be ranked last.
TaeJa earned his ranking through the sheer amount of work he has put in, the amount of wins he has, and the amount of times people have been at a loss for words to describe his play. You can make a case for Polt, Life, MVP, Zest, sOs, etc and clearly define what makes them great. You can't do that with TaeJa. He is truly a one of a kind player and barring a WCS/GSL trophy, he deserves the ranking he received.
Stuchiu, I read most of what you wrote and damn man, heart was fluttering. Wonderful writing and justification for each one. I went back and watched the matches you linked and remember exactly where I was when each was being played and how I felt about each one. Thank you.
Thanks, I'm glad some people like what I wrote and are watching the Vods I linked.
On April 27 2015 04:28 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: I had to log in just to ask why the hate? I mean, seriously, in complete honesty, why? This has been discussed to death, back to life, and then back to death. TaeJa is #3 "Greatest of All Time" according to Stuchiu. No one else. This was a personal endeavor on his part to reveal who HE thought were the top 15 in the world since SC2. GSL or no GSL, TaeJa is a force to be reckoned with. When he was forced back to South Korea, everyone wanted a piece of him. And he has repeatedly beaten the best of the best. As was stated previously, he has a winning record over most of the people Stuchiu listed. Stuchiu also stated that he tried to put TaeJa lower, but couldn't justify it. You don't go 17-0 during a tournament run and get ranked last. You also don't play potentially game of the year matches every time you enter a booth, and be ranked last. Furthermore, you don't win 11 Premier tournaments regardless of the format, and be ranked last.
TaeJa earned his ranking through the sheer amount of work he has put in, the amount of wins he has, and the amount of times people have been at a loss for words to describe his play. You can make a case for Polt, Life, MVP, Zest, sOs, etc and clearly define what makes them great. You can't do that with TaeJa. He is truly a one of a kind player and barring a WCS/GSL trophy, he deserves the ranking he received.
Stuchiu, I read most of what you wrote and damn man, heart was fluttering. Wonderful writing and justification for each one. I went back and watched the matches you linked and remember exactly where I was when each was being played and how I felt about each one. Thank you.
EDIT: During one of his streams, I asked TaeJa what he thought of the list and he said that he and PartinG talked about it. No PartinG, no GG.
No hate, it's just that when the article is featured news one would think one of the intents is to discuss the placings of each player. I don't see much disrespect going around, I actually think Stuchiu is very appreciated by the community. There's just a lot of disagreement and that's bound to happen.
==
Also, I'm appreciative of this list reminding me of my favorite ceremony xD
That's funny I remember games from MMA, MC, Mvp, Life, Parting, Innovation; games that made me think I LOVE STARCRAFT. Yet I don't remember ONE game from Taeja that made me react that way.
If the best game in 2013 didn't satisfy you, I don't know what would
On April 27 2015 04:28 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: I had to log in just to ask why the hate? I mean, seriously, in complete honesty, why? This has been discussed to death, back to life, and then back to death. TaeJa is #3 "Greatest of All Time" according to Stuchiu. No one else. This was a personal endeavor on his part to reveal who HE thought were the top 15 in the world since SC2. GSL or no GSL, TaeJa is a force to be reckoned with. When he was forced back to South Korea, everyone wanted a piece of him. And he has repeatedly beaten the best of the best. As was stated previously, he has a winning record over most of the people Stuchiu listed. Stuchiu also stated that he tried to put TaeJa lower, but couldn't justify it. You don't go 17-0 during a tournament run and get ranked last. You also don't play potentially game of the year matches every time you enter a booth, and be ranked last. Furthermore, you don't win 11 Premier tournaments regardless of the format, and be ranked last.
TaeJa earned his ranking through the sheer amount of work he has put in, the amount of wins he has, and the amount of times people have been at a loss for words to describe his play. You can make a case for Polt, Life, MVP, Zest, sOs, etc and clearly define what makes them great. You can't do that with TaeJa. He is truly a one of a kind player and barring a WCS/GSL trophy, he deserves the ranking he received.
Stuchiu, I read most of what you wrote and damn man, heart was fluttering. Wonderful writing and justification for each one. I went back and watched the matches you linked and remember exactly where I was when each was being played and how I felt about each one. Thank you.
EDIT: During one of his streams, I asked TaeJa what he thought of the list and he said that he and PartinG talked about it. No PartinG, no GG.
No hate, it's just that when the article is featured news one would think one of the intents is to discuss the placings of each player. I don't see much disrespect going around, I actually think Stuchiu is very appreciated by the community. There's just a lot of disagreement and that's bound to happen.
==
Also, I'm appreciative of this list reminding me of my favorite ceremony xD
I like a good discussion, don't get me wrong, but this has been a bashing against TaeJa and the exclusion of PartinG even though it has been made clear why these are the way they are.
I don't know, it's just a weird thing to see so much angst over one person's personal rankings and when invited to make their own, there are none.
MVP will most definitely be number 1 Life Should be number 2 People bashing Taeja obviously started watching SC2 late and don't have a real sense of how he came from the bottom to be where he is. The list is perfect except for Polt, he should be a little lower IMO
Life will be #1. Why? Because Life actually beat him in the Grand Finals of that one GSL at the end of Wings. It Mvp had won that finals and got his G5L, then of course he would be #1, because no one would probably achieve another G5L ever. But Life beat him, and Mvp has stopped playing SC2, but Life still has a grand future ahead of him.
On April 27 2015 04:00 Vaudevillain1 wrote: I think this greatest players was really well done but feels narrow in scope. Are we just going to robotically judge achievements or also think about influence and style a little bit.
Couldn't you have thrown foreigners a bone and made Stephano #15? I think his run was pretty impressive, he even was defeating well known Korean pros and was the best hope Europe ever had IMO. Is Leenock really more influential and greater then Stephano?
You could add Huk at #15 as well. Remember Huk won every MLG until Koreans entered it, if it wasn't for Huk (also his Idra feud) North America would give zero shits about SC2 I think. After we discovered all the amazing Korean talent most people grew to love them more then foreigners but maybe Team Liquid could have just recognized that these guys were Europe and NA's hero.
To me more people will care passionately about Stephano or Huk then Leenock. No offense. Also sure in a NBA list 13 of the top 15 players will be black but at least Steve Nash and Larry Bird will be in there too. Seems like the haters of SC2 were dead on right when they ask 'why even watch SC2 when you know what country the winner will always be from' you could try to show hope to the foreigner scene but you won't even recognize it.
Maybe you just need to do a Best Foreigners ever list? That would be cool. All I can tell you is Stephano's run where he defeated Korean after Korean and most foreigners was my favorite time in Starcraft II.
I don't mean offense to any fan of Leenock but please just recognize I am only trying to advocate why a foreigner should have been included because I believe life is more then just how much trophies you've got.
Lol wut? A foreigner shouldn't be gifted a spot on the list just to have a foreigner. And what's wrong with knowing what country the winner will come from? Baseball is so boring, I know what planet the winning team will be from because Earth owns this league so hard.
On April 27 2015 04:28 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: I had to log in just to ask why the hate? I mean, seriously, in complete honesty, why? This has been discussed to death, back to life, and then back to death. TaeJa is #3 "Greatest of All Time" according to Stuchiu. No one else. This was a personal endeavor on his part to reveal who HE thought were the top 15 in the world since SC2. GSL or no GSL, TaeJa is a force to be reckoned with. When he was forced back to South Korea, everyone wanted a piece of him. And he has repeatedly beaten the best of the best. As was stated previously, he has a winning record over most of the people Stuchiu listed. Stuchiu also stated that he tried to put TaeJa lower, but couldn't justify it. You don't go 17-0 during a tournament run and get ranked last. You also don't play potentially game of the year matches every time you enter a booth, and be ranked last. Furthermore, you don't win 11 Premier tournaments regardless of the format, and be ranked last.
TaeJa earned his ranking through the sheer amount of work he has put in, the amount of wins he has, and the amount of times people have been at a loss for words to describe his play. You can make a case for Polt, Life, MVP, Zest, sOs, etc and clearly define what makes them great. You can't do that with TaeJa. He is truly a one of a kind player and barring a WCS/GSL trophy, he deserves the ranking he received.
Stuchiu, I read most of what you wrote and damn man, heart was fluttering. Wonderful writing and justification for each one. I went back and watched the matches you linked and remember exactly where I was when each was being played and how I felt about each one. Thank you.
EDIT: During one of his streams, I asked TaeJa what he thought of the list and he said that he and PartinG talked about it. No PartinG, no GG.
No hate, it's just that when the article is featured news one would think one of the intents is to discuss the placings of each player. I don't see much disrespect going around, I actually think Stuchiu is very appreciated by the community. There's just a lot of disagreement and that's bound to happen.
==
Also, I'm appreciative of this list reminding me of my favorite ceremony xD
I like a good discussion, don't get me wrong, but this has been a bashing against TaeJa and the exclusion of PartinG even though it has been made clear why these are the way they are.
I don't know, it's just a weird thing to see so much angst over one person's personal rankings and when invited to make their own, there are none.
Taeja is always going to generate a shitstorm whenever people try to rank him. This has been going on for like the past two years. It always brings up the argument of quantity vs quality. Taeja's wins tend to carry less weight individually but he's simply won more premieres than everyone. Some think that's not even enough, that a single Korean win is basic qualification for being among the very top, that preparation > all. Others see foreign events as their own distinct competition and should be respected in their own right. Also, Taeja is on TL which always allows accusations of bias.
Personally, I think Taeja is exactly where he should be at #3.
As for PartinG, I've said enough on him. Hell, I don't even like the guy, I just find it peculiar he's not here. Stuchiu explained his reasoning, I don't agree. I've moved on. It's much more that I'm anti-Rain xD
On April 27 2015 04:28 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: I had to log in just to ask why the hate? I mean, seriously, in complete honesty, why? This has been discussed to death, back to life, and then back to death. TaeJa is #3 "Greatest of All Time" according to Stuchiu. No one else. This was a personal endeavor on his part to reveal who HE thought were the top 15 in the world since SC2. GSL or no GSL, TaeJa is a force to be reckoned with. When he was forced back to South Korea, everyone wanted a piece of him. And he has repeatedly beaten the best of the best. As was stated previously, he has a winning record over most of the people Stuchiu listed. Stuchiu also stated that he tried to put TaeJa lower, but couldn't justify it. You don't go 17-0 during a tournament run and get ranked last. You also don't play potentially game of the year matches every time you enter a booth, and be ranked last. Furthermore, you don't win 11 Premier tournaments regardless of the format, and be ranked last.
TaeJa earned his ranking through the sheer amount of work he has put in, the amount of wins he has, and the amount of times people have been at a loss for words to describe his play. You can make a case for Polt, Life, MVP, Zest, sOs, etc and clearly define what makes them great. You can't do that with TaeJa. He is truly a one of a kind player and barring a WCS/GSL trophy, he deserves the ranking he received.
Stuchiu, I read most of what you wrote and damn man, heart was fluttering. Wonderful writing and justification for each one. I went back and watched the matches you linked and remember exactly where I was when each was being played and how I felt about each one. Thank you.
EDIT: During one of his streams, I asked TaeJa what he thought of the list and he said that he and PartinG talked about it. No PartinG, no GG.
No hate, it's just that when the article is featured news one would think one of the intents is to discuss the placings of each player. I don't see much disrespect going around, I actually think Stuchiu is very appreciated by the community. There's just a lot of disagreement and that's bound to happen.
==
Also, I'm appreciative of this list reminding me of my favorite ceremony xD
I like a good discussion, don't get me wrong, but this has been a bashing against TaeJa and the exclusion of PartinG even though it has been made clear why these are the way they are.
I don't know, it's just a weird thing to see so much angst over one person's personal rankings and when invited to make their own, there are none.
Taeja is always going to generate a shitstorm whenever people try to rank him. This has been going on for like the past two years. It always brings up the argument of quantity vs quality. Taeja's wins tend to carry less weight individually but he's simply won more premieres than everyone. Some think that's not even enough, that a single Korean win is basic qualification for being among the very top, that preparation > all. Others see foreign events as their own distinct competition and should be respected in their own right. Also, Taeja is on TL which always allows accusations of bias.
Personally, I think Taeja is exactly where he should be at #3.
As for PartinG, I've said enough on him. Hell, I don't even like the guy, I just find it peculiar he's not here. Stuchiu explained his reasoning, I don't agree. I've moved on. It's much more that I'm anti-Rain xD
I can respect that. I never watched a lot of GSL until really around March 2014. I wasn't impressed. Except when Soulkey reversed swept Innovation. That was amazing.
On April 26 2015 22:10 Mallidon wrote: Not sure how Taeja beat MC here...
Looking at some of the criteria though I'd debate some of the Tier ratings really. IEM 2012 World Championship is Tier 3, really? Based on what? The players at it were arguably a lot better than most MLG's or NASL and the prize pool a lot higher than many of your Tier 2 (MLG Championships etc) and almost comparable with T1.
I simply put, just do not agree with the tier ratings here.
Prize Pool did not factor in.
Here are the relevant players that went here: Top 10 Z Violet Top 10 T Puma Top 10 T Supernova Top 5 T MMA Top 5 P MC Maybe Top 10 P in JYP and Killer
Now let me show you a tier 1 MLG (MLG Provdence):
DRG - Top 3 Z Top 5 T - MMA Top 5 T - Bomber Top 5 T - Puma (The difference was he was in his prime here while at IEM he fell off) Top 10 T - Rain Top 5 P - Naniwa Top 5 P - Huk Top 5 P - HerO Top 5 P - Oz Top 10 P - Puzzle Top 1 T - Mvp Top 10 T - Ganzi Top 5 T - MKP Top 10 T - sC Top 10 T - Keen Top 5 Z - Losira Top 10 Z - idra Top 3 Z - Leenock Top 3 Z - Nestea Top 10 Z - Violet And Haypro played the tournament of his life.
If you can convince me that IEM was on the same level as one of the tier 1 tournaments I listed, please go ahead.
On April 27 2015 00:03 stuchiu wrote: Oh here is a tier 2 MLG (Anaheim 2014):
Trap - Top 5 P (Played at that level) Polt - Top 5 T Stardust - Top 10 P HerO - Top 10 P Alicia - ? Hard to rate, but he rates somewhere between Top 15- top 10, Bomber - Top 5 T Heart - Top 10 T Hyun - Top 5 Z Jaedong - Top 10 Z DRG - Top 5 Z Life - Top 5 Z Leenock - Top 10 Z And this is without listing the increased depth of middle tier players.
So if you can convince me that IEM WC was better than this, than please do.
I'm not sure I could go into it with as much depth as you have, not without creating my own spreadsheets etc and to be honest I don't think I have the time lol. I must say, I'm just throwing out my opinion, you don't have to like everyones as you know what they say about opinions...
I just reckon the IEM WC should be tier 2 at least, with the players (that you've mentioned) at it. I mean PuMa at that time was a two time NASL champ (within 9 months of the final) and MC beat him, ending his good spell in SC2 really. The MLG's you've listed were stacked, I might have misread the tiers of some of the ones I was thinking of tbh.
Maybe I'm still in the tinted specs when I look at MC as a 2 time GSL winner, thinking he should be above Taeja. Maybe the competition wasn't as good back then, but hey since the player that SHOULD by all rights be top of this list was competitive around then (as well as about 3 others - MKP/MMA/Nestea - who are in your top 15 overall) then it couldn't have been all that bad hey?
On April 27 2015 00:23 lichter wrote: i should start writing in people's mod notes when it's obvious they don't read articles and just comment anyway
I know I certainly did, and I tried to get my head around the tiers. Walls of text are hard :S
I guess I just don't quite agree completely with the list, but then if slightly different criteria is set up for another list then its going to be completely different..
On April 26 2015 08:03 Meldon wrote: Life is the most charismatic player ever. Playstyle, effectiveness, mental strength.
But most of all he killed the king MVP and took his place.
Playstyle, effectivness and mental strength aren't really things that scream charisma....when I think of charismatic players I think of someone like Parting
On April 26 2015 08:03 Meldon wrote: Life is the most charismatic player ever. Playstyle, effectiveness, mental strength.
But most of all he killed the king MVP and took his place.
Playstyle, effectivness and mental strength aren't really things that scream charisma....when I think of charismatic players I think of someone like Parting
Yea when I think of charisma I think of Parting, MC, White-Ra, Polt, Sen, Grubby, Stephano
When I first made this list and used the eye test, Taeja was actually much further down the list
Taeja never was at a live final in korea, and no, he was not consistent for 1.5 years. The very "summer of taeja" thing, shows that he was consisten only during a short time, then went to a slump, and then back again to the top. You can't say he was consistent for 1.5 years.
2012-07-19 - Taeja wins MLG Summer 2012-08-04 - Taeja wins Asus ROG 2012-09-23 - Taeja wins Dreamhack Valencia 2012-10-10 - Top 4 GSL code s 2012-11-24 - 2nd place Dreamhack Winter 2013-03-01- top 4 GSL code S 2013-06-23 - Taeja wins homestory cupVII 2013-08-04 - Taeja wins ASUS ROG summer 2013-09-15 - Taeja wins Dreamhack Bucharest 2013-11-17 - Taeja wins Homestory cup VIII 2013-11-30 - Taeja wins Dreamhack Winter 2014-06-08 Taeja wins Homestory cup IX 2014-06-16 - Taeja wins Dreamhack summer 2014-07-20 - Taeja wins IEM Shenzen This is dateline of his tournament wins. You say he was consistent for a short time then slumped....look at that list and please explain to me where these slumps were. This list doesn't even have many of his top 4 and up finishes, this is just the highlights, the longest streak he had without WINNING a premier tournament is between Valencia and Homestory cup (about 9 monthes). During that time, he got second place at Dreamhack Winter and top 4 in Code S twice(hardly a slump). Say what you will about Taeja, but it is impossible to argue against his consistency when you look at all the facts.
On April 26 2015 08:03 Meldon wrote: Life is the most charismatic player ever. Playstyle, effectiveness, mental strength.
But most of all he killed the king MVP and took his place.
Playstyle, effectivness and mental strength aren't really things that scream charisma....when I think of charismatic players I think of someone like Parting
Yea when I think of charisma I think of Parting, MC, White-Ra, Polt, Sen, Grubby, Stephano
Agreed, charisma is most often separate from the gameplay, Life and Maru are amazing sc2 players, but they don't really give the best interviews, or charm people the same way as an MC, Parting, ect.
On April 26 2015 08:03 Meldon wrote: Life is the most charismatic player ever. Playstyle, effectiveness, mental strength.
But most of all he killed the king MVP and took his place.
Playstyle, effectivness and mental strength aren't really things that scream charisma....when I think of charismatic players I think of someone like Parting
Yea when I think of charisma I think of Parting, MC, White-Ra, Polt, Sen, Grubby, Stephano
Agreed, charisma is most often separate from the gameplay, Life and Maru are amazing sc2 players, but they don't really give the best interviews, or charm people the same way as an MC, Parting, ect.
NaDa has best charisma. There's an entire thread dedicated to his body.
On April 26 2015 08:03 Meldon wrote: Life is the most charismatic player ever. Playstyle, effectiveness, mental strength.
But most of all he killed the king MVP and took his place.
Playstyle, effectivness and mental strength aren't really things that scream charisma....when I think of charismatic players I think of someone like Parting
Yea when I think of charisma I think of Parting, MC, White-Ra, Polt, Sen, Grubby, Stephano
Agreed, charisma is most often separate from the gameplay, Life and Maru are amazing sc2 players, but they don't really give the best interviews, or charm people the same way as an MC, Parting, ect.
Life's interviews used to be great before someone taught him to be a little humble
On April 26 2015 08:03 Meldon wrote: Life is the most charismatic player ever. Playstyle, effectiveness, mental strength.
But most of all he killed the king MVP and took his place.
Playstyle, effectivness and mental strength aren't really things that scream charisma....when I think of charismatic players I think of someone like Parting
Yea when I think of charisma I think of Parting, MC, White-Ra, Polt, Sen, Grubby, Stephano
Agreed, charisma is most often separate from the gameplay, Life and Maru are amazing sc2 players, but they don't really give the best interviews, or charm people the same way as an MC, Parting, ect.
Life's interviews used to be great before someone taught him to be a little humble
Charisma does not necessarily mean arrogant. Look at Polt, and Grubby.
On April 26 2015 08:03 Meldon wrote: Life is the most charismatic player ever. Playstyle, effectiveness, mental strength.
But most of all he killed the king MVP and took his place.
Playstyle, effectivness and mental strength aren't really things that scream charisma....when I think of charismatic players I think of someone like Parting
Yea when I think of charisma I think of Parting, MC, White-Ra, Polt, Sen, Grubby, Stephano
Agreed, charisma is most often separate from the gameplay, Life and Maru are amazing sc2 players, but they don't really give the best interviews, or charm people the same way as an MC, Parting, ect.
Life's interviews used to be great before someone taught him to be a little humble
Charisma does not necessarily mean arrogant. Look at Polt, and Grubby.
I know what charisma means (I don't think Stephano was particularly charismatic, on that note), I'm just lamenting the fact that Life's interviews are as dull as they are today compared to late 2012. The guy legitimately did not know he could actually lose back then.
On April 27 2015 05:36 Mallidon wrote: Maybe I'm still in the tinted specs when I look at MC as a 2 time GSL winner, thinking he should be above Taeja. Maybe the competition wasn't as good back then, but hey since the player that SHOULD by all rights be top of this list was competitive around then (as well as about 3 others - MKP/MMA/Nestea - who are in your top 15 overall) then it couldn't have been all that bad hey?
I got into Starcraft in mid-2011, and what I remember is that the Korean scene was nowhere near as cutthroat competitive as it is now. Sure, you can say some of the players who weren't very good were top 10 for their race, but there was a larger gap between 1st and 5th then, than there is now. Nowadays, someone who is immediately knocked out in Code A could conceivably threaten some of the best players of the world on a different day. When a near-GOAT player like Innovation gets knocked out of Code S, there is a real possibility he could be eliminated from GSL entirely. I don't think this was quite as true in 2011.
Also, I tend to think that the quality difference between foreign tournaments and korean preparation tournaments (as much as there is a large one, which I don't really believe, but that's beside the point) grew after Kespa moved to SC2. In 2011-2012, the best players from GSL would also fly to MLGs, Dreamhacks, etc. more than they do now, so winning a foreign tournament indicated that you won what some of the best players in the world couldn't, when now, the best players in the world don't even really attend that many tournaments outside of Korea. I'm not really sure if this is true, but that's how I remember it. Correct me if you disagree.
On April 26 2015 08:03 Meldon wrote: Life is the most charismatic player ever. Playstyle, effectiveness, mental strength.
But most of all he killed the king MVP and took his place.
Playstyle, effectivness and mental strength aren't really things that scream charisma....when I think of charismatic players I think of someone like Parting
Yea when I think of charisma I think of Parting, MC, White-Ra, Polt, Sen, Grubby, Stephano
Agreed, charisma is most often separate from the gameplay, Life and Maru are amazing sc2 players, but they don't really give the best interviews, or charm people the same way as an MC, Parting, ect.
Life's interviews used to be great before someone taught him to be a little humble
They should have never separated Suhosin from Life. I demand parenting rights go back to Suhosin!
On April 26 2015 08:03 Meldon wrote: Life is the most charismatic player ever. Playstyle, effectiveness, mental strength.
But most of all he killed the king MVP and took his place.
Playstyle, effectivness and mental strength aren't really things that scream charisma....when I think of charismatic players I think of someone like Parting
Yea when I think of charisma I think of Parting, MC, White-Ra, Polt, Sen, Grubby, Stephano
Agreed, charisma is most often separate from the gameplay, Life and Maru are amazing sc2 players, but they don't really give the best interviews, or charm people the same way as an MC, Parting, ect.
Life's interviews used to be great before someone taught him to be a little humble
You can still see it in that evil grin of his that he still doesn't think very highly of people that are not him.
Parting, Life, Stephano and Soulkey has not been listed yet. My guess is Stephano #2 and Life #1. But that means Parting and Soulkey will not be on the list at all, which is pretty outrageous imo, like if you compare Parting to Leenock then surely Parting have had greater success
On April 26 2015 08:03 Meldon wrote: Life is the most charismatic player ever. Playstyle, effectiveness, mental strength.
But most of all he killed the king MVP and took his place.
Playstyle, effectivness and mental strength aren't really things that scream charisma....when I think of charismatic players I think of someone like Parting
Yea when I think of charisma I think of Parting, MC, White-Ra, Polt, Sen, Grubby, Stephano
Agreed, charisma is most often separate from the gameplay, Life and Maru are amazing sc2 players, but they don't really give the best interviews, or charm people the same way as an MC, Parting, ect.
Life's interviews used to be great before someone taught him to be a little humble
You can still see it in that evil grin of his that he still doesn't think very highly of people that are not him.
i think the only guy that life respects, or even maybe has some sort of fear versus, is taeja, and i don't think that taeja will be a big factor in the years to come anymore.
On April 27 2015 06:39 Mirnan wrote: Parting, Life, Stephano and Soulkey has not been listed yet. My guess is Stephano #2 and Life #1. But that means Parting and Soulkey will not be on the list at all, which is pretty outrageous imo, like if you compare Parting to Leenock then surely Parting have had greater success
I'm assuming you're not trolling so: Soulkey won 1 tournament, if you ignore WCG in which he only needed to beat one strong player to win the whole thing - a player mostly known for his WCG runs. Stephano does not belong on the top 10 even. I'd argue that he should been in top 15 but that's it. Life obviosuly is in top 2, perhaps top 1. Parting was strong but he rarely delivered when it mattered most. Sure he won 3 premiers, was runner up in Blizzard Cup but if you look into details, his championship runs weren't particulary hard. So the way thsi ranking works, he is not ranked hard, obviously.
When I first made this list and used the eye test, Taeja was actually much further down the list
And thats where he should have stayed.
This is where I started to balance things out. In GSL Open MC beat a Top 5 Z, Top 2 T, Top 3 T, Top 5 T. In Taeja’s 2013 GSL run he beat a Top 5 T, Top 5 Z, Top 1 Z. I then added in his Red Bull 2nd place to even out the prestige as in terms of difficulty Taeja’s run in 2013 was harder than MC’s run in 2010.
Next is MC’s March GSL win. He beat a Top 3 Z, Top 2 P, Top 3 Z. I compared this to Taeja’s Top 4 2012 run. He beat Top 1 T, Top 3 Z, Top 3 T, Top 2 Z. In sheer numbers MC again had the harder path. So I then added in Taeja’s ASUS Rog Summer to make up the difference in prestige (though Taeja’s opponent list now dwarf’s MC’s).
Why you "add tournaments to even out" the prestige or something, specially when you compare the Red Bull thing to the GSL? You can't even compare them properly because the Lan events are on a weekend wheres GSL gives you time to prepare strategies, and thats where taeja gets a lead when he shouldn't have gotten it.
There is a saying among the SC2 community called the Liquid Bias. It is the belief that the writers are inherently biased to Liquid players. Here is the truth: I have always tried to be biased against Taeja. I had put him below Zest in my first draft. But weight for weight, pound for pound, player for player, Taeja’s paths and achievements have constantly outshone things like prestige and preparation formats. My logic forced me kicking and screaming against this placing, but the hard facts remain. I spent tens of hours trying to find any excuse to put Taeja lower. I found none. Taeja’s volume of work is just too strong to ignore for arbitrary feelings like prestige. Now that I have thoroughly analyzed Taeja's entire career compared to the other greats of all time I finally understand what Coach Park meant when he said, “The hell kind of player was this?”
Here is my theory. You were obsesed on not having taeja that high on the list for a lot of reasons, one of them being the suppoused "TL bias". But then, you tried to see things "objectively", and to do so you started to balance out things to favour taeja and try to see him on a more neutral spopt, but what happened is that although you tried to balance it, you started to subconsiously give too much credit to Taeja for certain things and thats why it ended up being favored on your list. Frankly, if Mc was 3rd and Taeja 4th it would be fine.
You say Taeja won agaisn't harder oponents on LAN, but again, thats not comparable. When you have time to prepare for an oponent your skill and yor strenghts can vary a lot, and there is much more to it than just the skill of the player, there is strategy, the coach, the team, the mental strenght of the player and so on, you cannot simply say that the more difficult players beat the prestigue, because that prestigue comes from somewhere. Again you can't compare.
Taeja never was at a live final in korea, and no, he was not consistent for 1.5 years. The very "summer of taeja" thing, shows that he was consisten only during a short time, then went to a slump, and then back again to the top. You can't say he was consistent for 1.5 years.
First of all, spelling.
Second of all, have you done all the work that stuchiu has? Have you rewatched his games, exhaustively researched the background information, and tried to find your own data to justify placing Taeja lower? Because, unless you've done a similar amount of work to stuchiu, you have absolutely no reason to come up with some ridiculous theory about how his subconscious is working when it comes to forming his own damn opinion.
And of course, let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say you have put just as much work into your own private list of GOAT. That still has precisely 0% to do with what is 'objectively right' because in absence of a multi-year, completely integrated, and unified metrical system of tournaments, there is no objectivity in GOAT unless someone has won so many titles and games that they are simply accepted as such. There are exactly two players who MIGHT fit that category in all of SC2, and neither of them is Taeja. So, I guess I'm saying, chill.
On April 27 2015 08:54 kochanfe wrote: hmmm... soO at 12 and Zest at 8 while Polt and TaeJa are sitting at 5 and 3 respectively... something seems a bit off lol
This isn't "who would win in a boX" or who's been at the highest peak. I think soO and Zest are better players than Polt or Taeja, however when you look at greatest of all time you have to look at for how long they've been considered "great". Great (or Best) in this context does not mean "second to none".
On April 27 2015 05:20 RaiKageRyu wrote: Life will be #1. Why? Because Life actually beat him in the Grand Finals of that one GSL at the end of Wings. It Mvp had won that finals and got his G5L, then of course he would be #1, because no one would probably achieve another G5L ever. But Life beat him, and Mvp has stopped playing SC2, but Life still has a grand future ahead of him.
Watch the series again, Mvp played better than Life in almost every single aspect, Life took the series simply because Mvp couldn't follow up mechanically despite getting huge leads through his extremely intelligent play, Life didn't truly beat Mvp, Mvp's wrists did it for him.
On April 27 2015 08:54 kochanfe wrote: hmmm... soO at 12 and Zest at 8 while Polt and TaeJa are sitting at 5 and 3 respectively... something seems a bit off lol
This isn't "who would win in a boX" or who's been at the highest peak. I think soO and Zest are better players than Polt or Taeja, however when you look at greatest of all time you have to look at for how long they've been considered "great". Great (or Best) in this context does not mean "second to none".
TaeJa has beaten both soO and Zest every time they have met. I don't think Polt has played soO and I think he lost the only time he played Zest. They operate in two different regions, but Polt and TaeJa have proven that they can beat the best at any given moment. TaeJa has done it repeatedly and against the ones you have mentioned.
On April 27 2015 05:20 RaiKageRyu wrote: Life will be #1. Why? Because Life actually beat him in the Grand Finals of that one GSL at the end of Wings. It Mvp had won that finals and got his G5L, then of course he would be #1, because no one would probably achieve another G5L ever. But Life beat him, and Mvp has stopped playing SC2, but Life still has a grand future ahead of him.
Watch the series again, Mvp played better than Life in almost every single aspect, Life took the series simply because Mvp couldn't follow up mechanically despite getting huge leads through his extremely intelligent play, Life didn't truly beat Mvp, Mvp's wrists did it for him.
Isn't that a bit of a weird argument, though? You can say that strategy should reign over speed and pure physical prowess if you want, but there's countless examples of players in chess and other games getting too old and physically unfit for long, grueling competition and succumbing to younger, fitter players. That doesn't mean they're not great, it just means that the times are always changing. No one's ever going to say Kasparov isn't AMONG the all-time greats, but to say that he's de factor better than Carlsen because Carlsen is just young and fit right now and Kasparov's 'strategy was better' would be strange (also fallacious because holy shit does Carlsen play the most strategically deep chess I've ever seen).
On April 27 2015 05:20 RaiKageRyu wrote: Life will be #1. Why? Because Life actually beat him in the Grand Finals of that one GSL at the end of Wings. It Mvp had won that finals and got his G5L, then of course he would be #1, because no one would probably achieve another G5L ever. But Life beat him, and Mvp has stopped playing SC2, but Life still has a grand future ahead of him.
Watch the series again, Mvp played better than Life in almost every single aspect, Life took the series simply because Mvp couldn't follow up mechanically despite getting huge leads through his extremely intelligent play, Life didn't truly beat Mvp, Mvp's wrists did it for him.
Life won because Zerg was completely broken against Terran at the end of WoL. The fact he barely won 4-3 indeed speaks volumes about how much he was outplayed. Unfortunately, unlike the Nestea vs MarineKing finals, justice did not prevail in the last game. Such is life!
On April 27 2015 05:20 RaiKageRyu wrote: Life will be #1. Why? Because Life actually beat him in the Grand Finals of that one GSL at the end of Wings. It Mvp had won that finals and got his G5L, then of course he would be #1, because no one would probably achieve another G5L ever. But Life beat him, and Mvp has stopped playing SC2, but Life still has a grand future ahead of him.
Watch the series again, Mvp played better than Life in almost every single aspect, Life took the series simply because Mvp couldn't follow up mechanically despite getting huge leads through his extremely intelligent play, Life didn't truly beat Mvp, Mvp's wrists did it for him.
Isn't that a bit of a weird argument, though? You can say that strategy should reign over speed and pure physical prowess if you want, but there's countless examples of players in chess and other games getting too old and physically unfit for long, grueling competition and succumbing to younger, fitter players. That doesn't mean they're not great, it just means that the times are always changing. No one's ever going to say Kasparov isn't AMONG the all-time greats, but to say that he's de factor better than Carlsen because Carlsen is just young and fit right now and Kasparov's 'strategy was better' would be strange (also fallacious because holy shit does Carlsen play the most strategically deep chess I've ever seen).
True, but thats beside the point, I don't think Life will ever get even close to Mvp's sheer brilliance at his prime. edit: then again I'm quite biased and I haven't watched sc2 in a while, but when I did that's what I felt.
To me, Mvp is basically the general of terran. He was the strategic mastermind who's knowledge of the game was unmatched in his prime. He could pull apart any player with his sharp builds in b.o. sets, and he also had the iron nerves to get through any bad situation and be able to attempt cheese when no other player would. When you watch him play, it wasn't always about how ridiculous his mechanics were (although without his later injury, his mechanics are top tier). It was about how you saw the game through his eyes and slowly watch in amazement as his plan unfolded before our eyes, making his opponents look like noobs. Also of course, the famous manner mules that always come after stunning victories.
I will be a sad panda if Mvp isn't #1. At Mvp's peak, he made everyone look helpless. If you ask any of the players he's played against during his reign, they all had nothing but praises and respect for him. I don't think there will be another Mvp. :D
On April 27 2015 10:06 zerious wrote: I will be a sad panda if Mvp isn't #1. At Mvp's peak, he made everyone look helpless. If you ask any of the players he's played against during his reign, they all had nothing but praises and respect for him. I don't think there will be another Mvp. :D
It makes me sad to think that we might never get anyone like Mvp again. But I think in terms of accomplishments, Life might be ahead slightly, it's close.
On April 27 2015 05:20 RaiKageRyu wrote: Life will be #1. Why? Because Life actually beat him in the Grand Finals of that one GSL at the end of Wings. It Mvp had won that finals and got his G5L, then of course he would be #1, because no one would probably achieve another G5L ever. But Life beat him, and Mvp has stopped playing SC2, but Life still has a grand future ahead of him.
Watch the series again, Mvp played better than Life in almost every single aspect, Life took the series simply because Mvp couldn't follow up mechanically despite getting huge leads through his extremely intelligent play, Life didn't truly beat Mvp, Mvp's wrists did it for him.
So much this - Mvp was defeated by his body, not by Life. Life is an amazing player - but Mvp is SC2's only Bonjwa.
On April 27 2015 08:57 kochanfe wrote: I'm assuming Life no.2 and Mvp no.1? Or perhaps they share the no.1 slot. Either way, the top two on the list are about all I can agree with...
Surely Mvp is #1? Won a GSL at a time when Terran was weak to Protoss - despite not having serious wrist issues. Mostly outplayed Life in a narrow loss at a time when Zerg was extremely OP vs Terran and Mvp - this time without wrists altogether! Also won a few other GSLs.
Life is the best player in the world, but MVP is the greatest of all time.
On April 27 2015 05:20 RaiKageRyu wrote: Life will be #1. Why? Because Life actually beat him in the Grand Finals of that one GSL at the end of Wings. It Mvp had won that finals and got his G5L, then of course he would be #1, because no one would probably achieve another G5L ever. But Life beat him, and Mvp has stopped playing SC2, but Life still has a grand future ahead of him.
Watch the series again, Mvp played better than Life in almost every single aspect, Life took the series simply because Mvp couldn't follow up mechanically despite getting huge leads through his extremely intelligent play, Life didn't truly beat Mvp, Mvp's wrists did it for him.
Life won because Zerg was completely broken against Terran at the end of WoL. The fact he barely won 4-3 indeed speaks volumes about how much he was outplayed. Unfortunately, unlike the Nestea vs MarineKing finals, justice did not prevail in the last game. Such is life!
You also have to factor in that Life barely beat a weak Mvp. The way he go to that finals was awful.
On April 27 2015 05:20 RaiKageRyu wrote: Life will be #1. Why? Because Life actually beat him in the Grand Finals of that one GSL at the end of Wings. It Mvp had won that finals and got his G5L, then of course he would be #1, because no one would probably achieve another G5L ever. But Life beat him, and Mvp has stopped playing SC2, but Life still has a grand future ahead of him.
Watch the series again, Mvp played better than Life in almost every single aspect, Life took the series simply because Mvp couldn't follow up mechanically despite getting huge leads through his extremely intelligent play, Life didn't truly beat Mvp, Mvp's wrists did it for him.
Life won because Zerg was completely broken against Terran at the end of WoL. The fact he barely won 4-3 indeed speaks volumes about how much he was outplayed. Unfortunately, unlike the Nestea vs MarineKing finals, justice did not prevail in the last game. Such is life!
You also have to factor in that Life barely beat a weak Mvp. The way he go to that finals was awful.
Life or Mvp? I mean either way their path was awesome not really awful.
Life's was a story of dominance and a new age.
Mvp's was a miraculous run of a tired veteran who won through intellect and experience.
All that final needed was better games and it could've been the best series ever. Story wise I don't think it can be beat.
On April 27 2015 05:20 RaiKageRyu wrote: Life will be #1. Why? Because Life actually beat him in the Grand Finals of that one GSL at the end of Wings. It Mvp had won that finals and got his G5L, then of course he would be #1, because no one would probably achieve another G5L ever. But Life beat him, and Mvp has stopped playing SC2, but Life still has a grand future ahead of him.
Watch the series again, Mvp played better than Life in almost every single aspect, Life took the series simply because Mvp couldn't follow up mechanically despite getting huge leads through his extremely intelligent play, Life didn't truly beat Mvp, Mvp's wrists did it for him.
So much this - Mvp was defeated by his body, not by Life. Life is an amazing player - but Mvp is SC2's only Bonjwa.
I agree. While Life's career is in many ways littered with impressive wins, Mvp has the Bonjwa quality to him that is hard to put into words. Like the Flash or sAviOr aura in their primes.
On April 27 2015 05:20 RaiKageRyu wrote: Life will be #1. Why? Because Life actually beat him in the Grand Finals of that one GSL at the end of Wings. It Mvp had won that finals and got his G5L, then of course he would be #1, because no one would probably achieve another G5L ever. But Life beat him, and Mvp has stopped playing SC2, but Life still has a grand future ahead of him.
Watch the series again, Mvp played better than Life in almost every single aspect, Life took the series simply because Mvp couldn't follow up mechanically despite getting huge leads through his extremely intelligent play, Life didn't truly beat Mvp, Mvp's wrists did it for him.
So much this - Mvp was defeated by his body, not by Life. Life is an amazing player - but Mvp is SC2's only Bonjwa.
I agree. While Life's career is in many ways littered with impressive wins, Mvp has the Bonjwa quality to him that is hard to put into words. Like the Flash or sAviOr aura in their primes.
See, this right here...
Mvp is clearly #1, but I don't agree at all with the assessment of Life and actually think he's rapidly nearing Mvp's level.
I mean, Life just came off winning Blizzcon, IEM Taipei, GSL, and wasn't even that far off from winning the NSSL. He has 3 GSL titles and 10 Premieres to his name with excellent spread over time.
the funny part about the taeja hate is it never existed during the two summer of taeja periods, during which there was a strong consensus that he was the best player in the world. when taeja was in his zone, he literally had no weaknesses. he was the best at all three matchups. he was the best macro player in the world. but he didn't split like maru or drop like MMA, so I guess he was no good. people have a romanticized idea of terran that causes them to overvalue very specific modes of play. hell, people forget this, but MVP was nowhere near a fan favorite during his most dominant period, because people just didn't think he was flashy enough. it was only when he made his run through the protoss minefield in early 2012 that people started liking him (the lesson, as always: the best way to get fans on TL is to beat protoss players).
On April 27 2015 05:20 RaiKageRyu wrote: Life will be #1. Why? Because Life actually beat him in the Grand Finals of that one GSL at the end of Wings. It Mvp had won that finals and got his G5L, then of course he would be #1, because no one would probably achieve another G5L ever. But Life beat him, and Mvp has stopped playing SC2, but Life still has a grand future ahead of him.
Watch the series again, Mvp played better than Life in almost every single aspect, Life took the series simply because Mvp couldn't follow up mechanically despite getting huge leads through his extremely intelligent play, Life didn't truly beat Mvp, Mvp's wrists did it for him.
So much this - Mvp was defeated by his body, not by Life. Life is an amazing player - but Mvp is SC2's only Bonjwa.
I agree. While Life's career is in many ways littered with impressive wins, Mvp has the Bonjwa quality to him that is hard to put into words. Like the Flash or sAviOr aura in their primes.
See, this right here...
Mvp is clearly #1, but I don't agree at all with the assessment of Life and actually think he's rapidly nearing Mvp's level.
I mean, Life just came off winning Blizzcon, IEM Taipei, GSL, and wasn't even that far off from winning the NSSL. He has 3 GSL titles and 10 Premieres to his name with excellent spread over time.
I understand, and I think he could get there some way.
In some ways it's more of a "feeling" you have about the player than a specific set of accomplishments.
I've been around for a while and I think Life barely ekes out Mvp. Just how consistent he's been for a while is more to me than Mvp's reign of dominance in 2011-early 2012.
I also want to stress that even that statement is a bit of a stretch, yeah Mvp won the second GSL in 2012, but that was after a long stretch. He had been doing pretty poorly in the first half of 2012. He also later got to the finals of GSL verses life
And his 2013 WCS run in season finals where he faced Innovation was great, but I'm going to put that more as a fluke.
In essence MVP dominated much of 2011, and then through his brilliance did great, isolated runs in the GSL season 2, the one versus life, and WCS Season finals. The question thus is that better than Life who has been less "dominant" (though still regarded as the best player in the world for several periods of 2012-2015). To be honest, Life's win at the global finals to me was just as impressive if not more than MVPs 2012 GSL run, the only reason we celebrate MVPs more is because Mvp had been doing far worse before he won.
Also Mvp (except for 2012) always had a weak TvP matchup so there's that too, while Life has been traditionally strong in all matchups.
I want to say if Mvp is #1 a lot of it will probably focus on his brilliance and ability to think about the game, and win when no one expects it (and thus he's like a hero in addition to an awesome player). I don't deny that, I just think Life is ahead.
It's a tough question but I'll personally go with life.
On April 27 2015 13:32 Pandain wrote: Also as a side note there has never been a SC2 player more dominant in all three matchups than Taeja during the summer of 2012.
On April 27 2015 05:20 RaiKageRyu wrote: Life will be #1. Why? Because Life actually beat him in the Grand Finals of that one GSL at the end of Wings. It Mvp had won that finals and got his G5L, then of course he would be #1, because no one would probably achieve another G5L ever. But Life beat him, and Mvp has stopped playing SC2, but Life still has a grand future ahead of him.
Watch the series again, Mvp played better than Life in almost every single aspect, Life took the series simply because Mvp couldn't follow up mechanically despite getting huge leads through his extremely intelligent play, Life didn't truly beat Mvp, Mvp's wrists did it for him.
Life won because Zerg was completely broken against Terran at the end of WoL. The fact he barely won 4-3 indeed speaks volumes about how much he was outplayed. Unfortunately, unlike the Nestea vs MarineKing finals, justice did not prevail in the last game. Such is life!
At this point I don't even know If people actually believe this or not
I'm assuming Life and MVP will get the last 2 spots. If that is the case, PartinG was left out of the top 15.
PartinG > Leenock if we are talking about top SC2 players of all time.
There is no question PartinG has achieved much more than Leenock in SC2.
Disappointed that the OP didn't consider PartinG. I feel that the OP should have thought through this list and discussed it with other people before publicizing it.
On April 27 2015 05:20 RaiKageRyu wrote: Life will be #1. Why? Because Life actually beat him in the Grand Finals of that one GSL at the end of Wings. It Mvp had won that finals and got his G5L, then of course he would be #1, because no one would probably achieve another G5L ever. But Life beat him, and Mvp has stopped playing SC2, but Life still has a grand future ahead of him.
Watch the series again, Mvp played better than Life in almost every single aspect, Life took the series simply because Mvp couldn't follow up mechanically despite getting huge leads through his extremely intelligent play, Life didn't truly beat Mvp, Mvp's wrists did it for him.
So much this - Mvp was defeated by his body, not by Life. Life is an amazing player - but Mvp is SC2's only Bonjwa.
lol can we not use a BW word that is so overused in so many different contexts. It's a term that will never have any meaning in SC2
On April 27 2015 05:20 RaiKageRyu wrote: Life will be #1. Why? Because Life actually beat him in the Grand Finals of that one GSL at the end of Wings. It Mvp had won that finals and got his G5L, then of course he would be #1, because no one would probably achieve another G5L ever. But Life beat him, and Mvp has stopped playing SC2, but Life still has a grand future ahead of him.
Watch the series again, Mvp played better than Life in almost every single aspect, Life took the series simply because Mvp couldn't follow up mechanically despite getting huge leads through his extremely intelligent play, Life didn't truly beat Mvp, Mvp's wrists did it for him.
Life won because Zerg was completely broken against Terran at the end of WoL. The fact he barely won 4-3 indeed speaks volumes about how much he was outplayed. Unfortunately, unlike the Nestea vs MarineKing finals, justice did not prevail in the last game. Such is life!
You also have to factor in that Life barely beat a weak Mvp. The way he go to that finals was awful.
Life or Mvp? I mean either way their path was awesome not really awful.
Life's was a story of dominance and a new age.
Mvp's was a miraculous run of a tired veteran who won through intellect and experience.
All that final needed was better games and it could've been the best series ever. Story wise I don't think it can be beat.
Well, I meant Mvp. He was in such bad shape that he had to practically outsmart every single person he played. Which really is quite brilliant, but for Mvp standards if he was 100 percent he would have been smashing nerds.
On April 27 2015 14:29 xelnaga_empire wrote: I'm assuming Life and MVP will get the last 2 spots. If that is the case, PartinG was left out of the top 15.
PartinG > Leenock if we are talking about top SC2 players of all time.
There is no question PartinG has achieved much more than Leenock in SC2.
Disappointed that the OP didn't consider PartinG. I feel that the OP should have thought through this list and discussed it with other people before publicizing it.
I did consider Parting. The people I talked to didn't have a particularly strong inclination for including Parrting in the top 15.
On April 27 2015 05:20 RaiKageRyu wrote: Life will be #1. Why? Because Life actually beat him in the Grand Finals of that one GSL at the end of Wings. It Mvp had won that finals and got his G5L, then of course he would be #1, because no one would probably achieve another G5L ever. But Life beat him, and Mvp has stopped playing SC2, but Life still has a grand future ahead of him.
Watch the series again, Mvp played better than Life in almost every single aspect, Life took the series simply because Mvp couldn't follow up mechanically despite getting huge leads through his extremely intelligent play, Life didn't truly beat Mvp, Mvp's wrists did it for him.
So much this - Mvp was defeated by his body, not by Life. Life is an amazing player - but Mvp is SC2's only Bonjwa.
lol can we not use a BW word that is so overused in so many different contexts. It's a term that will never have any meaning in SC2
Yeah, sadly. Unless LotV sets things right, we'll not even get a Mvp again, despite the player pool being better than ever.
On April 27 2015 06:39 Mirnan wrote: Parting, Life, Stephano and Soulkey has not been listed yet. My guess is Stephano #2 and Life #1. But that means Parting and Soulkey will not be on the list at all, which is pretty outrageous imo, like if you compare Parting to Leenock then surely Parting have had greater success
I'm assuming you're not trolling so: Soulkey won 1 tournament, if you ignore WCG in which he only needed to beat one strong player to win the whole thing - a player mostly known for his WCG runs. Stephano does not belong on the top 10 even. I'd argue that he should been in top 15 but that's it. Life obviosuly is in top 2, perhaps top 1. Parting was strong but he rarely delivered when it mattered most. Sure he won 3 premiers, was runner up in Blizzard Cup but if you look into details, his championship runs weren't particulary hard. So the way thsi ranking works, he is not ranked hard, obviously.
My bad. I thought MVP had already been listed. But he hasn't so obviously MVP is #2 and Life #1. This has to be it right? I still think it's weird to not have Parting on the list, a player who was such a top protoss for so long and is still kind of relevant, and he is perhaps the most famous protoss player of all time except MC.
I'm totally okay with Taeja being #3, but where's Bomber? I'd place him before Leenock and even MMA. Still can't believe MMA is #6. He should be on the list, but if you look at say DRG i think DRG's reign as the best zerg player lasted longer than MMAs reign as the best terran player. MMA needs to be degraded and DRG needs to be upgraded IMO. But still, a pretty good list overall :D
I don't agree with Taeja as number 3 but I am pretty much a korean scene follower exclusively so it only makes sense. I haven't kept my eye on the totality of SC2 so I can't be angry and disagree with the list factually... I come from the BW background where OSL and MSL were king... so missing something like a GSL and being considered the best doesn't compute.
That being said, I know SC2 has a vibrant international scene and it's a different game so I can't complain! I've enjoyed the list thus far and also enjoy the Taeja debate.
On April 26 2015 21:09 YuiHirasawa wrote: That's funny I remember games from MMA, MC, Mvp, Life, Parting, Innovation; games that made me think I LOVE STARCRAFT. Yet I don't remember ONE game from Taeja that made me react that way.
Yet he has several games among great games list.
Watch him against Rain, Innovation, Solar (that just silly 200 vs 200 fights where he still snipes banelings and mutas... ends up with less than half of resource lost of Solar even in loses), Life, Zest(being considered god at the time... losing both times he met Taeja), soO (playing godlike according to artosis... and it wasnt enough to beat Taeja)
Life, Jaedong(during blizzcon when everyone thought he was done for and he stomped everyone, even beat sOs on equal bases because he never scouted hidden base... and sOs had to cheese every game to win), MMA and Taeja... the guys that made me love sc2
Not to mention his dominance during the times T was considered the weakest, and likes of Maru, Innovation, Flash etc were nowhere to be found... and if Tournament had T in top4 or finals(or even top8)... it was 99% just 1 guy, and it was Taeja...
Taeja at his peak is nr1 player ever in my book...
On April 26 2015 21:09 YuiHirasawa wrote: That's funny I remember games from MMA, MC, Mvp, Life, Parting, Innovation; games that made me think I LOVE STARCRAFT. Yet I don't remember ONE game from Taeja that made me react that way.
Yet he has several games among great games list.
Watch him against Rain, Innovation, Solar (that just silly 200 vs 200 fights where he still snipes banelings and mutas... ends up with less than half of resource lost of Solar even in loses), Life, Zest(being considered god at the time... losing both times he met Taeja), soO (playing godlike according to artosis... and it wasnt enough to beat Taeja)
For his level, soO's play at Blizzcon was disastrous in the Nimbus game. It reminded me of the (in)famous Nestea vs Mvp game on Shakuras at the 2011 Blizzcon. I can't comment on the IEM Toronto series, but Zest's play in the IEM Shenzhen one was awful as well. Names alone mean little, you really have to look at the content of the games; TaeJa's play was of course extremely solid in those games, but he had much more impressive achievements than mauling heavily under-performing players. Those series were similar to TaeJa bashing MC 4-0 at the HSC IX.
As for people claiming TaeJa did not produce any notable game... yeah, no. Even if his style is rather bland, you really have to be blind not to find jaw-dropping stuff in the compendium of his games. It's really a pity he'll leave the game without having a GSL under his belt.
On April 27 2015 14:29 xelnaga_empire wrote: I'm assuming Life and MVP will get the last 2 spots. If that is the case, PartinG was left out of the top 15.
PartinG > Leenock if we are talking about top SC2 players of all time.
There is no question PartinG has achieved much more than Leenock in SC2.
Disappointed that the OP didn't consider PartinG. I feel that the OP should have thought through this list and discussed it with other people before publicizing it.
I did consider Parting. The people I talked to didn't have a particularly strong inclination for including Parrting in the top 15.
In the final post, i would request why did you exclude the tosses, foreigners, Proleague monsters, and ex-startale bomber/parting? 1. Parting 2. Stephano 3. Bomber 4. Jaedong 5. the two heroes (CJHero,liquidHero) 6. zest 7. sos 8. squirtle 9. Classic 10. Naniwa 11. the Proleague stars- Losira, Bbyong, Flash,
Since the final post only has two, I feel that you could add much more to your debate. Particularly, why did you leave out certain players. There's about 10 or more than i felt were stronger than marine king.
At the end of 2012, early 2013 i don't know who I would consider better than Parting. he won the wcs grand finals. took several first there and seconds in gsl. He was one of the dominant players of proleague as well. (i know you kind of hate proleague from your original post on who you chose. which excluded several players like stephano, flash, losira, cj hero) the 3 biggest names i felt were startale bomber and parting and stephano got the short end of the stick. Jaedong to is scary as hell. (Jaedong, losira, hyun, and zest i feel could beat any player any day as well.)
I would like to see parting/bomber/stephano/sos/squirtle/zest/hero/hero/classic/jaedong/Naniwa in particular addressed in the post of the top 15.
On April 27 2015 20:24 LemonyTang wrote: yo TL cmon post the last part. I literally had a nightmare that i woke up and checked it and mvp was #2. I need to get that out of my head.
On April 27 2015 20:24 LemonyTang wrote: yo TL cmon post the last part. I literally had a nightmare that i woke up and checked it and mvp was #2. I need to get that out of my head.
Jokes on you, TaeJa grabbed the top 3 spots
number 2 is pirateterran and numer one lis liquidsucksballswithoutme. moustache terran is overrated though.
On April 27 2015 20:24 LemonyTang wrote: yo TL cmon post the last part. I literally had a nightmare that i woke up and checked it and mvp was #2. I need to get that out of my head.
Jokes on you, TaeJa grabbed the top 3 spots
number 2 is pirateterran and numer one lis liquidsucksballswithoutme. moustache terran is overrated though.
It is impossible to satisfy everyone with lists like these. Nevertheless, I feel like there should have been two lists -- one pre-KESPA and one post-KESPA. Polt for example is about as good as he's ever been and I don't think you can say he's even the fifth best Terran at present, let alone fifth best player overall. Players like Polt, Taeja, and MC aren't even in the top tier of current players even though they're playing about as well as they ever have. That last point is important. We're able to see how these guys stack up against the current crop of sc2 Koreans and Polt, etc. are still top tier but they're only fringe top tier at best.
On April 27 2015 22:25 The_Darkness wrote: It is impossible to satisfy everyone with lists like these. Nevertheless, I feel like there should have been two lists -- one pre-KESPA and one post-KESPA. Polt for example is about as good as he's ever been and I don't think you can say he's even the fifth best Terran at present, let alone fifth best player overall. Players like Polt, Taeja, and MC aren't even in the top tier of current players even though they're playing about as well as they ever have. That last point is important. We're able to see how these guys stack up against the current crop of sc2 Koreans and Polt, etc. are still top tier but they're only fringe top tier at best.
you realize this isn't a power rank right now? because it's what you're asking for...
On April 27 2015 14:29 xelnaga_empire wrote: I'm assuming Life and MVP will get the last 2 spots. If that is the case, PartinG was left out of the top 15.
PartinG > Leenock if we are talking about top SC2 players of all time.
There is no question PartinG has achieved much more than Leenock in SC2.
Disappointed that the OP didn't consider PartinG. I feel that the OP should have thought through this list and discussed it with other people before publicizing it.
I did consider Parting. The people I talked to didn't have a particularly strong inclination for including Parrting in the top 15.
How is this even possible!? Like I thought for sure his WCS 2012 and WCG win would put him in the top 15.
I haven't followed SC2 since WoL but I do like reading Top xx articles. Great read all around, but I gotta say your logic on Taeja is a little bullshit.
I think you're trying too hard tbh. I agree that there should be some attempt at valuing difficulty of matches and comparing them with actual prestige, but it really doesn't matter too much when it's about XX of ALL TIME of anything. I honestly don't know where your train of thought starts. I read your entire logic on why you put Taeja at #3 and read it 2 more times, yet everything you wrote makes no sense why he'd be in third place. If anything, I'd expect him to be in #7. This is just from reading your Foreword of this whole list and putting it side by side with what you said about Taeja. Like...what's the point of valuing Blizzcon over everything else if you're gonna put so much weight on the difficulty of opponents? I really don't get it.
At the very least, you're completely forgetting that this is the list of the greatest players of ALL TIME. MC found success in the highly volatile stages of the game back when I actually played SC2 and continued onwards as the game changed. The general vibe I get is that you're making a list of the greatest players currently, or the presumed equivalent of how they would fare if they played at their prime form. I think that's rather unfair since SC2 of now is not the whole history of SC2.
Michael Jordan is without a doubt the greatest basketball player of all time by most people's standards, but I kinda doubt he would be Top 1 if he played in his prime form today since the standards have been pushed up. Jack Nicklaus is at the very least Top 2 greatest golfers of all time (Tiger Woods being the other one) but I doubt he would even be top 10 now because the game has changed.
At the end of 2012, early 2013 i don't know who I would consider better than Parting. he won the wcs grand finals. took several first there and seconds in gsl. He was one of the dominant players of proleague as well. (i know you kind of hate proleague from your original post on who you chose. which excluded several players like stephano, flash, losira, cj hero) the 3 biggest names i felt were startale bomber and parting and stephano got the short end of the stick. Jaedong to is scary as hell. (Jaedong, losira, hyun, and zest i feel could beat any player any day as well.)
I would like to see parting/bomber/stephano/sos/squirtle/zest/hero/hero/classic/jaedong/Naniwa in particular addressed in the post of the top 15.
WCS was premier but it wasn't particulary hard. Arguably his 3rd place in WCS Korea and 2nd place in WCS Asia could be considered more respectful results. En route to the championship he won against Socke, Illusion, Scarlett, Suppy, Sen and Creator. Respectable? Yes. Impressive? Hardly (at least for a GOAT contender).
While I disagree with having MK over Parting, I think you're overvaluing his achievements a bit.
Only a small point. The terms blink era and BL-infestors have been bandied quite a fair bit in the write up to try and justify certain positions for lending weight to why some wins are deemed more impressive than some. By the same account, parade push tvz era, gomtvt era and 1/1/1 tvp were not.
On April 27 2015 22:44 royalroadweed wrote: Anyone know where is Polt vs Byul game 2? Weird it's not on their youtube channel considering its the game with Billy the marine.
As the vod bitch for this entire project, there were only 2 vods I couldn't find. Polt vs ByuL G2 was one of them. It simply doesn't exist on youtube for some reason, and the twitch channels are dead. Unless it's on some chinese site (which I did search...) it's likely gone forever :[
On April 27 2015 22:44 royalroadweed wrote: Anyone know where is Polt vs Byul game 2? Weird it's not on their youtube channel considering its the game with Billy the marine.
As the vod bitch for this entire project, there were only 2 vods I couldn't find. Polt vs ByuL G2 was one of them. It simply doesn't exist on youtube for some reason, and the twitch channels are dead. Unless it's on some chinese site (which I did search...) it's likely gone forever :[
On April 27 2015 14:29 xelnaga_empire wrote: I'm assuming Life and MVP will get the last 2 spots. If that is the case, PartinG was left out of the top 15.
PartinG > Leenock if we are talking about top SC2 players of all time.
There is no question PartinG has achieved much more than Leenock in SC2.
Disappointed that the OP didn't consider PartinG. I feel that the OP should have thought through this list and discussed it with other people before publicizing it.
I did consider Parting. The people I talked to didn't have a particularly strong inclination for including Parrting in the top 15.
In the final post, i would request why did you exclude the tosses, foreigners, Proleague monsters, and ex-startale bomber/parting? 1. Parting 2. Stephano 3. Bomber 4. Jaedong 5. the two heroes (CJHero,liquidHero) 6. zest 7. sos 8. squirtle 9. Classic 10. Naniwa 11. the Proleague stars- Losira, Bbyong, Flash,
Since the final post only has two, I feel that you could add much more to your debate. Particularly, why did you leave out certain players. There's about 10 or more than i felt were stronger than marine king.
At the end of 2012, early 2013 i don't know who I would consider better than Parting. he won the wcs grand finals. took several first there and seconds in gsl. He was one of the dominant players of proleague as well. (i know you kind of hate proleague from your original post on who you chose. which excluded several players like stephano, flash, losira, cj hero) the 3 biggest names i felt were startale bomber and parting and stephano got the short end of the stick. Jaedong to is scary as hell. (Jaedong, losira, hyun, and zest i feel could beat any player any day as well.)
I would like to see parting/bomber/stephano/sos/squirtle/zest/hero/hero/classic/jaedong/Naniwa in particular addressed in the post of the top 15.
Why these all fell short in your mind?
The reasons why are basically covered in my blog about criteria. The only people that were a hairsbreadth away from making it were Soulkey, Bomber, Parting and sOs.
Soulkey didn't have enough dominating runs. Bomber wasn't consistent enough. Some of Parting's big wins were weak and hurt his overall peak consistency. Coupled with the prestige of 2013 Blizzcon of sOs he fell below sOs. sOs only had slighy higher peaks than Leenock, but had slightly weaker runs and overall weaker consistency.
On April 27 2015 22:50 Samx wrote: Only a small point. The terms blink era and BL-infestors have been bandied quite a fair bit in the write up to try and justify certain positions for lending weight to why some wins are deemed more impressive than some. By the same account, parade push tvz era, gomtvt era and 1/1/1 tvp were not.
For 1/1/1 TvP era the only real ehroes of that era were MC and Parting. Taeja fought bl/infesor and blink era so that didn't come up. Parting didn't really fight the kings of 1/1/1 much during his reign (Puma/Heart) and I don't think it was as comparable to the later eras of complete dominance that bl/infestor and blink era were.
GomTvT era did have a showing in both Nestea and Polt's arcs and were one of the reasons why Nestea was specifically chosen over Zest.
Parade Push TvZ Era was talked about under DRG. I don't think it was ever truly imbalanced like the way bl/infestor and blink era were (even though Terran had a high winrate). And even then the only players to succeed against it were Life, Soulkey, DRG and Curious. Life only had enough to win MLG Fall before it was truly refined. Soulkey used a bunch of mind tricks and once won a bo1 Proleague against it. DRG actually did kill it. So did Curious.
On April 27 2015 22:48 North2 wrote: I haven't followed SC2 since WoL but I do like reading Top xx articles. Great read all around, but I gotta say your logic on Taeja is a little bullshit.
I think you're trying too hard tbh. I agree that there should be some attempt at valuing difficulty of matches and comparing them with actual prestige, but it really doesn't matter too much when it's about XX of ALL TIME of anything. I honestly don't know where your train of thought starts. I read your entire logic on why you put Taeja at #3 and read it 2 more times, yet everything you wrote makes no sense why he'd be in third place. If anything, I'd expect him to be in #7. This is just from reading your Foreword of this whole list and putting it side by side with what you said about Taeja. Like...what's the point of valuing Blizzcon over everything else if you're gonna put so much weight on the difficulty of opponents? I really don't get it.
At the very least, you're completely forgetting that this is the list of the greatest players of ALL TIME. MC found success in the highly volatile stages of the game back when I actually played SC2 and continued onwards as the game changed. The general vibe I get is that you're making a list of the greatest players currently, or the presumed equivalent of how they would fare if they played at their prime form. I think that's rather unfair since SC2 of now is not the whole history of SC2.
Michael Jordan is without a doubt the greatest basketball player of all time by most people's standards, but I kinda doubt he would be Top 1 if he played in his prime form today since the standards have been pushed up. Jack Nicklaus is at the very least Top 2 greatest golfers of all time (Tiger Woods being the other one) but I doubt he would even be top 10 now because the game has changed.
Because the context of players wins mattered to me. Who they beat along the way to win a tournament as well as the relative strength of their scenes. Like I said it was just a general guideline to give people a decent feel for how I ranked tournaments. I wasn't completely dismissive of what MC did in the early phases and I wasn't dismissive of what Taeja did internationally.
Taeja was essentially a conundrum. What would happen if there was a player who consistently beat the top players of his era over and over and over again in international lans, but could never really make it happen in prep tournaments beyond a few RO4s? But what if he had won so many and had beaten so many of the good players that it dwarfed his competition?
At the end of the day things like prestige and preparation formats and innovation can only take you so far. At some point the results of what you did and who you had to beat to get there eventually start outweighing those intangible aspects. And with Taeja he went past that point a long time ago.
On April 27 2015 22:48 North2 wrote: I haven't followed SC2 since WoL but I do like reading Top xx articles. Great read all around, but I gotta say your logic on Taeja is a little bullshit.
I think you're trying too hard tbh. I agree that there should be some attempt at valuing difficulty of matches and comparing them with actual prestige, but it really doesn't matter too much when it's about XX of ALL TIME of anything. I honestly don't know where your train of thought starts. I read your entire logic on why you put Taeja at #3 and read it 2 more times, yet everything you wrote makes no sense why he'd be in third place. If anything, I'd expect him to be in #7. This is just from reading your Foreword of this whole list and putting it side by side with what you said about Taeja. Like...what's the point of valuing Blizzcon over everything else if you're gonna put so much weight on the difficulty of opponents? I really don't get it.
At the very least, you're completely forgetting that this is the list of the greatest players of ALL TIME. MC found success in the highly volatile stages of the game back when I actually played SC2 and continued onwards as the game changed. The general vibe I get is that you're making a list of the greatest players currently, or the presumed equivalent of how they would fare if they played at their prime form. I think that's rather unfair since SC2 of now is not the whole history of SC2.
Michael Jordan is without a doubt the greatest basketball player of all time by most people's standards, but I kinda doubt he would be Top 1 if he played in his prime form today since the standards have been pushed up. Jack Nicklaus is at the very least Top 2 greatest golfers of all time (Tiger Woods being the other one) but I doubt he would even be top 10 now because the game has changed.
Because the context of players wins mattered to me. Who they beat along the way to win a tournament as well as the relative strength of their scenes. Like I said it was just a general guideline to give people a decent feel for how I ranked tournaments. I wasn't completely dismissive of what MC did in the early phases and I wasn't dismissive of what Taeja did internationally.
Taeja was essentially a conundrum. What would happen if there was a player who consistently beat the top players of his era over and over and over again in international lans, but could never really make it happen in prep tournaments beyond a few RO4s? But what if he had won so many and had beaten so many of the good players that it dwarfed his competition?
At the end of the day things like prestige and preparation formats and innovation can only take you so far. At some point the results of what you did and who you had to beat to get there eventually start outweighing those intangible aspects. And with Taeja he went past that point a long time ago.
I couldn't agree more with taeja's pick. he was winning the big name protoss in macro games when most players were just cheesing them. the only terran doing well, just like mc was winning everything when protoss was weak.
I think all of Taeja's tournament wins look better now in hindsight since Life's playing really well again and Taeja beat Life in pretty much all of his weekend LAN wins. So when Life is playing well, Taeja's "difficulty of opponents" skyrockets, and when Life is slumping, it looks weaker.
Given the theory that Life was just as good between MLG 2013 and Blizzcon 2014 as he was before and after, and Taeja was just better, then Taeja definitely deserves #3, maybe even #2. But if you think that Life was in a very long slump in that period, even though he still won a few tournaments, then Taeja is more like #5.
On April 27 2015 22:48 North2 wrote: I haven't followed SC2 since WoL but I do like reading Top xx articles. Great read all around, but I gotta say your logic on Taeja is a little bullshit.
I think you're trying too hard tbh. I agree that there should be some attempt at valuing difficulty of matches and comparing them with actual prestige, but it really doesn't matter too much when it's about XX of ALL TIME of anything. I honestly don't know where your train of thought starts. I read your entire logic on why you put Taeja at #3 and read it 2 more times, yet everything you wrote makes no sense why he'd be in third place. If anything, I'd expect him to be in #7. This is just from reading your Foreword of this whole list and putting it side by side with what you said about Taeja. Like...what's the point of valuing Blizzcon over everything else if you're gonna put so much weight on the difficulty of opponents? I really don't get it.
At the very least, you're completely forgetting that this is the list of the greatest players of ALL TIME. MC found success in the highly volatile stages of the game back when I actually played SC2 and continued onwards as the game changed. The general vibe I get is that you're making a list of the greatest players currently, or the presumed equivalent of how they would fare if they played at their prime form. I think that's rather unfair since SC2 of now is not the whole history of SC2.
Michael Jordan is without a doubt the greatest basketball player of all time by most people's standards, but I kinda doubt he would be Top 1 if he played in his prime form today since the standards have been pushed up. Jack Nicklaus is at the very least Top 2 greatest golfers of all time (Tiger Woods being the other one) but I doubt he would even be top 10 now because the game has changed.
Because the context of players wins mattered to me. Who they beat along the way to win a tournament as well as the relative strength of their scenes. Like I said it was just a general guideline to give people a decent feel for how I ranked tournaments. I wasn't completely dismissive of what MC did in the early phases and I wasn't dismissive of what Taeja did internationally.
Taeja was essentially a conundrum. What would happen if there was a player who consistently beat the top players of his era over and over and over again in international lans, but could never really make it happen in prep tournaments beyond a few RO4s? But what if he had won so many and had beaten so many of the good players that it dwarfed his competition?
At the end of the day things like prestige and preparation formats and innovation can only take you so far. At some point the results of what you did and who you had to beat to get there eventually start outweighing those intangible aspects. And with Taeja he went past that point a long time ago.
I couldn't agree more with taeja's pick. he was winning the big name protoss in macro games when most players were just cheesing them. the only terran doing well, just like mc was winning everything when protoss was weak.
Not really though. In 2012 Mvp was still clearly better at the beginning of the BL/Infestor era, and by the end of that era no terran was winning anything. In 2014 every single terran player was quick to remind you that Taeja's tournament wins didn't have a single Code S protoss. I'd rate Maru making the Ro8 during all 3 protoss-won GSLs as being closer to "the only terran doing well" for that era.
MC on the other hand was the best Protoss in every single aspect of the game until Parting showed up. MC had 17 top 4 placements in premiers in the first 2 years of WoL, about the same as Taeja in his first 2 years after his first non-Code-A top 4. The difference between MC and Taeja? Besides MC's 2 GSLs, there's the fact that the next best Protosses in that era had 4 top 4's in events with Koreans. (Huk, Squirtle and Naniwa) Liquid'HerO had 3 top 4's.
Taeja's contemporaries: Polt and Innovation had 9 top 4 placements, and Bomber had 8. There were other top Korean terrans during Taeja's dominance, but MC was the only top Korean protoss. No one else in SC2 has been the best player of their race like MC, especially when their race was weakest.
On April 27 2015 22:48 North2 wrote: I haven't followed SC2 since WoL but I do like reading Top xx articles. Great read all around, but I gotta say your logic on Taeja is a little bullshit.
I think you're trying too hard tbh. I agree that there should be some attempt at valuing difficulty of matches and comparing them with actual prestige, but it really doesn't matter too much when it's about XX of ALL TIME of anything. I honestly don't know where your train of thought starts. I read your entire logic on why you put Taeja at #3 and read it 2 more times, yet everything you wrote makes no sense why he'd be in third place. If anything, I'd expect him to be in #7. This is just from reading your Foreword of this whole list and putting it side by side with what you said about Taeja. Like...what's the point of valuing Blizzcon over everything else if you're gonna put so much weight on the difficulty of opponents? I really don't get it.
At the very least, you're completely forgetting that this is the list of the greatest players of ALL TIME. MC found success in the highly volatile stages of the game back when I actually played SC2 and continued onwards as the game changed. The general vibe I get is that you're making a list of the greatest players currently, or the presumed equivalent of how they would fare if they played at their prime form. I think that's rather unfair since SC2 of now is not the whole history of SC2.
Michael Jordan is without a doubt the greatest basketball player of all time by most people's standards, but I kinda doubt he would be Top 1 if he played in his prime form today since the standards have been pushed up. Jack Nicklaus is at the very least Top 2 greatest golfers of all time (Tiger Woods being the other one) but I doubt he would even be top 10 now because the game has changed.
Because the context of players wins mattered to me. Who they beat along the way to win a tournament as well as the relative strength of their scenes. Like I said it was just a general guideline to give people a decent feel for how I ranked tournaments. I wasn't completely dismissive of what MC did in the early phases and I wasn't dismissive of what Taeja did internationally.
Taeja was essentially a conundrum. What would happen if there was a player who consistently beat the top players of his era over and over and over again in international lans, but could never really make it happen in prep tournaments beyond a few RO4s? But what if he had won so many and had beaten so many of the good players that it dwarfed his competition?
At the end of the day things like prestige and preparation formats and innovation can only take you so far. At some point the results of what you did and who you had to beat to get there eventually start outweighing those intangible aspects. And with Taeja he went past that point a long time ago.
I couldn't agree more with taeja's pick. he was winning the big name protoss in macro games when most players were just cheesing them. the only terran doing well, just like mc was winning everything when protoss was weak.
Prep and innovation aren't intangibles. You clearly understood the valuation of the innovation aspect when it can change the landscape of the game as you have mentioned with...Rain I think? Prep is also an essential part of the game, otherwise there would be no series.
Difficulty of players can vary by so much that it's not really something to even attempt to try valuing by yourself. The condition of BOTH players can vary day by day, along with just a general affinity for some playstyles to beat others, especially on specific patches. If we started valuing every single win-loss like that, then we really need to look into every single game for every single person. Why is taeja the only one getting the special treatment by getting his accomplishments weighed more based on who he beat? It's very possible that Life didn't play at his best in any of taeja's matches, and it's also very possible that he played like a god against a lot of other players.
I don't even know a third of the people on this list, that's how out of touch I am. Still, I read all of it and I could at least say, "OK, I can agree to that". But then there's the logic of Taeja, and it sticks out like a sore thumb. The results are really what matters the most by a large margin. Your explanation gives me even more confidence that this is more of a list of the "Most Skilled Players of All Time", which just doesn't do the list justice. Either you explained it really badly or I'm just missing something, because Taeja's accomplishments didn't come anywhere near MC's from what I read while Taeja had to beat a lot of tough competition to do what he did.
Right now, I can agree with Taeja's spot at #3 and believe the whole rest of the rankings is shit because you didn't go into as much detail as you did with Taeja, or I can disagree with Taeja's spot at #3 and believe the rest of the rankings is great since you covered all aspects of the game rather fairly except for the difficulty of players.
On April 28 2015 00:45 Cheren wrote: I think all of Taeja's tournament wins look better now in hindsight since Life's playing really well again and Taeja beat Life in pretty much all of his weekend LAN wins. So when Life is playing well, Taeja's "difficulty of opponents" skyrockets, and when Life is slumping, it looks weaker.
Given the theory that Life was just as good between MLG 2013 and Blizzcon 2014 as he was before and after, and Taeja was just better, then Taeja definitely deserves #3, maybe even #2. But if you think that Life was in a very long slump in that period, even though he still won a few tournaments, then Taeja is more like #5.
On April 27 2015 22:48 North2 wrote: I haven't followed SC2 since WoL but I do like reading Top xx articles. Great read all around, but I gotta say your logic on Taeja is a little bullshit.
I think you're trying too hard tbh. I agree that there should be some attempt at valuing difficulty of matches and comparing them with actual prestige, but it really doesn't matter too much when it's about XX of ALL TIME of anything. I honestly don't know where your train of thought starts. I read your entire logic on why you put Taeja at #3 and read it 2 more times, yet everything you wrote makes no sense why he'd be in third place. If anything, I'd expect him to be in #7. This is just from reading your Foreword of this whole list and putting it side by side with what you said about Taeja. Like...what's the point of valuing Blizzcon over everything else if you're gonna put so much weight on the difficulty of opponents? I really don't get it.
At the very least, you're completely forgetting that this is the list of the greatest players of ALL TIME. MC found success in the highly volatile stages of the game back when I actually played SC2 and continued onwards as the game changed. The general vibe I get is that you're making a list of the greatest players currently, or the presumed equivalent of how they would fare if they played at their prime form. I think that's rather unfair since SC2 of now is not the whole history of SC2.
Michael Jordan is without a doubt the greatest basketball player of all time by most people's standards, but I kinda doubt he would be Top 1 if he played in his prime form today since the standards have been pushed up. Jack Nicklaus is at the very least Top 2 greatest golfers of all time (Tiger Woods being the other one) but I doubt he would even be top 10 now because the game has changed.
Because the context of players wins mattered to me. Who they beat along the way to win a tournament as well as the relative strength of their scenes. Like I said it was just a general guideline to give people a decent feel for how I ranked tournaments. I wasn't completely dismissive of what MC did in the early phases and I wasn't dismissive of what Taeja did internationally.
Taeja was essentially a conundrum. What would happen if there was a player who consistently beat the top players of his era over and over and over again in international lans, but could never really make it happen in prep tournaments beyond a few RO4s? But what if he had won so many and had beaten so many of the good players that it dwarfed his competition?
At the end of the day things like prestige and preparation formats and innovation can only take you so far. At some point the results of what you did and who you had to beat to get there eventually start outweighing those intangible aspects. And with Taeja he went past that point a long time ago.
I couldn't agree more with taeja's pick. he was winning the big name protoss in macro games when most players were just cheesing them. the only terran doing well, just like mc was winning everything when protoss was weak.
Not really though. In 2012 Mvp was still clearly better at the beginning of the BL/Infestor era, and by the end of that era no terran was winning anything. In 2014 every single terran player was quick to remind you that Taeja's tournament wins didn't have a single Code S protoss. I'd rate Maru making the Ro8 during all 3 protoss-won GSLs as being closer to "the only terran doing well" for that era.
MC on the other hand was the best Protoss in every single aspect of the game until Parting showed up. MC had 17 top 4 placements in premiers in the first 2 years of WoL, about the same as Taeja in his first 2 years after his first non-Code-A top 4. The difference between MC and Taeja? Besides MC's 2 GSLs, there's the fact that the next best Protosses in that era had 4 top 4's in events with Koreans. (Huk, Squirtle and Naniwa) Liquid'HerO had 3 top 4's.
Taeja's contemporaries: Polt and Innovation had 9 top 4 placements, and Bomber had 8. There were other top Korean terrans during Taeja's dominance, but MC was the only top Korean protoss. No one else in SC2 has been the best player of their race like MC, especially when their race was weakest.
If I am not mistaken, Stuchiu only consider the form of the player at the time when the match is played. Life being the top player now does not make Taeja's victory in 2013 looks better. The fact is even in 2013 form, Life still ranked among the top 5 zergs and beating him in 2013 counts as beating a top 5 zerg, not as beating the best player.
On April 26 2015 21:09 YuiHirasawa wrote: That's funny I remember games from MMA, MC, Mvp, Life, Parting, Innovation; games that made me think I LOVE STARCRAFT. Yet I don't remember ONE game from Taeja that made me react that way.
Yet he has several games among great games list.
Watch him against Rain, Innovation, Solar (that just silly 200 vs 200 fights where he still snipes banelings and mutas... ends up with less than half of resource lost of Solar even in loses), Life, Zest(being considered god at the time... losing both times he met Taeja), soO (playing godlike according to artosis... and it wasnt enough to beat Taeja)
For his level, soO's play at Blizzcon was disastrous in the Nimbus game. It reminded me of the (in)famous Nestea vs Mvp game on Shakuras at the 2011 Blizzcon. I can't comment on the IEM Toronto series, but Zest's play in the IEM Shenzhen one was awful as well. Names alone mean little, you really have to look at the content of the games; TaeJa's play was of course extremely solid in those games, but he had much more impressive achievements than mauling heavily under-performing players. Those series were similar to TaeJa bashing MC 4-0 at the HSC IX.
As for people claiming TaeJa did not produce any notable game... yeah, no. Even if his style is rather bland, you really have to be blind not to find jaw-dropping stuff in the compendium of his games. It's really a pity he'll leave the game without having a GSL under his belt.
that reminds me of life. All players just happen to make disastrous mistakes vs him. Maybe it could be that... you know, they FORCE those mistakes through their play? Zest and soO were considered by far the 2 best players in the world and then when they play taeja they are suddenly trash? Just a coincidence, has nothing to do with taejas skill
On April 28 2015 00:45 Cheren wrote: I think all of Taeja's tournament wins look better now in hindsight since Life's playing really well again and Taeja beat Life in pretty much all of his weekend LAN wins. So when Life is playing well, Taeja's "difficulty of opponents" skyrockets, and when Life is slumping, it looks weaker.
Given the theory that Life was just as good between MLG 2013 and Blizzcon 2014 as he was before and after, and Taeja was just better, then Taeja definitely deserves #3, maybe even #2. But if you think that Life was in a very long slump in that period, even though he still won a few tournaments, then Taeja is more like #5.
On April 27 2015 22:48 North2 wrote: I haven't followed SC2 since WoL but I do like reading Top xx articles. Great read all around, but I gotta say your logic on Taeja is a little bullshit.
I think you're trying too hard tbh. I agree that there should be some attempt at valuing difficulty of matches and comparing them with actual prestige, but it really doesn't matter too much when it's about XX of ALL TIME of anything. I honestly don't know where your train of thought starts. I read your entire logic on why you put Taeja at #3 and read it 2 more times, yet everything you wrote makes no sense why he'd be in third place. If anything, I'd expect him to be in #7. This is just from reading your Foreword of this whole list and putting it side by side with what you said about Taeja. Like...what's the point of valuing Blizzcon over everything else if you're gonna put so much weight on the difficulty of opponents? I really don't get it.
At the very least, you're completely forgetting that this is the list of the greatest players of ALL TIME. MC found success in the highly volatile stages of the game back when I actually played SC2 and continued onwards as the game changed. The general vibe I get is that you're making a list of the greatest players currently, or the presumed equivalent of how they would fare if they played at their prime form. I think that's rather unfair since SC2 of now is not the whole history of SC2.
Michael Jordan is without a doubt the greatest basketball player of all time by most people's standards, but I kinda doubt he would be Top 1 if he played in his prime form today since the standards have been pushed up. Jack Nicklaus is at the very least Top 2 greatest golfers of all time (Tiger Woods being the other one) but I doubt he would even be top 10 now because the game has changed.
Because the context of players wins mattered to me. Who they beat along the way to win a tournament as well as the relative strength of their scenes. Like I said it was just a general guideline to give people a decent feel for how I ranked tournaments. I wasn't completely dismissive of what MC did in the early phases and I wasn't dismissive of what Taeja did internationally.
Taeja was essentially a conundrum. What would happen if there was a player who consistently beat the top players of his era over and over and over again in international lans, but could never really make it happen in prep tournaments beyond a few RO4s? But what if he had won so many and had beaten so many of the good players that it dwarfed his competition?
At the end of the day things like prestige and preparation formats and innovation can only take you so far. At some point the results of what you did and who you had to beat to get there eventually start outweighing those intangible aspects. And with Taeja he went past that point a long time ago.
I couldn't agree more with taeja's pick. he was winning the big name protoss in macro games when most players were just cheesing them. the only terran doing well, just like mc was winning everything when protoss was weak.
Not really though. In 2012 Mvp was still clearly better at the beginning of the BL/Infestor era, and by the end of that era no terran was winning anything. In 2014 every single terran player was quick to remind you that Taeja's tournament wins didn't have a single Code S protoss. I'd rate Maru making the Ro8 during all 3 protoss-won GSLs as being closer to "the only terran doing well" for that era.
MC on the other hand was the best Protoss in every single aspect of the game until Parting showed up. MC had 17 top 4 placements in premiers in the first 2 years of WoL, about the same as Taeja in his first 2 years after his first non-Code-A top 4. The difference between MC and Taeja? Besides MC's 2 GSLs, there's the fact that the next best Protosses in that era had 4 top 4's in events with Koreans. (Huk, Squirtle and Naniwa) Liquid'HerO had 3 top 4's.
Taeja's contemporaries: Polt and Innovation had 9 top 4 placements, and Bomber had 8. There were other top Korean terrans during Taeja's dominance, but MC was the only top Korean protoss. No one else in SC2 has been the best player of their race like MC, especially when their race was weakest.
ah I forgot, Zest was in code B when taeJa 3:0ed him at IEM Shenzhen.
MVP should be GOAT because he is playing with crippling pain and still found ways to win, and during time when gg lord/winfestor broken combo made it impossible for terran to win in the late game
Also I find it funny that now this article bring up just how broken the end of WOL era was, even though back then ppl were banned for rightfully pointing out how bad the queen range patch was. Even poor avilo was mocked mercilessly by idra and incontrol for pointing this out on SOTG. its good that the truth is finally out
On April 26 2015 21:09 YuiHirasawa wrote: That's funny I remember games from MMA, MC, Mvp, Life, Parting, Innovation; games that made me think I LOVE STARCRAFT. Yet I don't remember ONE game from Taeja that made me react that way.
Yet he has several games among great games list.
Watch him against Rain, Innovation, Solar (that just silly 200 vs 200 fights where he still snipes banelings and mutas... ends up with less than half of resource lost of Solar even in loses), Life, Zest(being considered god at the time... losing both times he met Taeja), soO (playing godlike according to artosis... and it wasnt enough to beat Taeja)
For his level, soO's play at Blizzcon was disastrous in the Nimbus game. It reminded me of the (in)famous Nestea vs Mvp game on Shakuras at the 2011 Blizzcon. I can't comment on the IEM Toronto series, but Zest's play in the IEM Shenzhen one was awful as well. Names alone mean little, you really have to look at the content of the games; TaeJa's play was of course extremely solid in those games, but he had much more impressive achievements than mauling heavily under-performing players. Those series were similar to TaeJa bashing MC 4-0 at the HSC IX.
As for people claiming TaeJa did not produce any notable game... yeah, no. Even if his style is rather bland, you really have to be blind not to find jaw-dropping stuff in the compendium of his games. It's really a pity he'll leave the game without having a GSL under his belt.
that reminds me of life. All players just happen to make disastrous mistakes vs him. Maybe it could be that... you know, they FORCE those mistakes through their play? Zest and soO were considered by far the 2 best players in the world and then when they play taeja they are suddenly trash? Just a coincidence, has nothing to do with taejas skill
Of course great players force mistakes from their opponent, if only passively thanks to their very aura! But no, TaeJa did nothing to make Zest forget Warpgate or the Templar Archives.
On April 27 2015 22:48 North2 wrote: I haven't followed SC2 since WoL but I do like reading Top xx articles. Great read all around, but I gotta say your logic on Taeja is a little bullshit.
I think you're trying too hard tbh. I agree that there should be some attempt at valuing difficulty of matches and comparing them with actual prestige, but it really doesn't matter too much when it's about XX of ALL TIME of anything. I honestly don't know where your train of thought starts. I read your entire logic on why you put Taeja at #3 and read it 2 more times, yet everything you wrote makes no sense why he'd be in third place. If anything, I'd expect him to be in #7. This is just from reading your Foreword of this whole list and putting it side by side with what you said about Taeja. Like...what's the point of valuing Blizzcon over everything else if you're gonna put so much weight on the difficulty of opponents? I really don't get it.
At the very least, you're completely forgetting that this is the list of the greatest players of ALL TIME. MC found success in the highly volatile stages of the game back when I actually played SC2 and continued onwards as the game changed. The general vibe I get is that you're making a list of the greatest players currently, or the presumed equivalent of how they would fare if they played at their prime form. I think that's rather unfair since SC2 of now is not the whole history of SC2.
Michael Jordan is without a doubt the greatest basketball player of all time by most people's standards, but I kinda doubt he would be Top 1 if he played in his prime form today since the standards have been pushed up. Jack Nicklaus is at the very least Top 2 greatest golfers of all time (Tiger Woods being the other one) but I doubt he would even be top 10 now because the game has changed.
Because the context of players wins mattered to me. Who they beat along the way to win a tournament as well as the relative strength of their scenes. Like I said it was just a general guideline to give people a decent feel for how I ranked tournaments. I wasn't completely dismissive of what MC did in the early phases and I wasn't dismissive of what Taeja did internationally.
Taeja was essentially a conundrum. What would happen if there was a player who consistently beat the top players of his era over and over and over again in international lans, but could never really make it happen in prep tournaments beyond a few RO4s? But what if he had won so many and had beaten so many of the good players that it dwarfed his competition?
At the end of the day things like prestige and preparation formats and innovation can only take you so far. At some point the results of what you did and who you had to beat to get there eventually start outweighing those intangible aspects. And with Taeja he went past that point a long time ago.
I couldn't agree more with taeja's pick. he was winning the big name protoss in macro games when most players were just cheesing them. the only terran doing well, just like mc was winning everything when protoss was weak.
Prep and innovation aren't intangibles. You clearly understood the valuation of the innovation aspect when it can change the landscape of the game as you have mentioned with...Rain I think? Prep is also an essential part of the game, otherwise there would be no series.
Difficulty of players can vary by so much that it's not really something to even attempt to try valuing by yourself. The condition of BOTH players can vary day by day, along with just a general affinity for some playstyles to beat others, especially on specific patches. If we started valuing every single win-loss like that, then we really need to look into every single game for every single person. Why is taeja the only one getting the special treatment by getting his accomplishments weighed more based on who he beat? It's very possible that Life didn't play at his best in any of taeja's matches, and it's also very possible that he played like a god against a lot of other players.
I don't even know a third of the people on this list, that's how out of touch I am. Still, I read all of it and I could at least say, "OK, I can agree to that". But then there's the logic of Taeja, and it sticks out like a sore thumb. The results are really what matters the most by a large margin. Your explanation gives me even more confidence that this is more of a list of the "Most Skilled Players of All Time", which just doesn't do the list justice. Either you explained it really badly or I'm just missing something, because Taeja's accomplishments didn't come anywhere near MC's from what I read while Taeja had to beat a lot of tough competition to do what he did.
Right now, I can agree with Taeja's spot at #3 and believe the whole rest of the rankings is shit because you didn't go into as much detail as you did with Taeja, or I can disagree with Taeja's spot at #3 and believe the rest of the rankings is great since you covered all aspects of the game rather fairly except for the difficulty of players.
Taeja wasn't getting special treatment. He just happened to be the only player to have won so many tournaments with so much high level competition that the first criteria started to outweigh the rest.
And despite having bad prep, at Blizzcon he beat both Inno and soO. Both had long periods of time to prepare, but Taeja won. In terms of consistency he did worse than MC (though not by much) and better at peak consistency when considering increased skill over time.
Taeja also had max points in refinement of his playstyle and had done well in bad metas. I did this ranking for all players in the top 15. For reasons of length and clarity, the balance of what I did for everyone was taken out except for Taeja because obviously people were going to be super enraged by it.
Not all criteria were created equal. I put the most weight on results (relative to the times the won them), but considering we're talking about the Best of the Best of all time it came to be that for most players their intangibles were what weighed them ahead of other players (whether it be prestige, prep formats, adversity, consistency, innovation, refinement, etc.) Taeja had a competitive amount in all formats except innovation, prestige and prep formats (though like I said, he proved himself at Blizzcon). Taeja is the "exception" because he was the sole player to have done sooooo much in the first part that it eclipsed the rest.
At some point you have so much skill that you naturally become one of the greatest. That added with the rest of what Taeja has done was what earned him this spot.
On April 28 2015 00:45 Cheren wrote: I think all of Taeja's tournament wins look better now in hindsight since Life's playing really well again and Taeja beat Life in pretty much all of his weekend LAN wins. So when Life is playing well, Taeja's "difficulty of opponents" skyrockets, and when Life is slumping, it looks weaker.
Given the theory that Life was just as good between MLG 2013 and Blizzcon 2014 as he was before and after, and Taeja was just better, then Taeja definitely deserves #3, maybe even #2. But if you think that Life was in a very long slump in that period, even though he still won a few tournaments, then Taeja is more like #5.
On April 28 2015 00:43 tokinho wrote:
On April 28 2015 00:13 stuchiu wrote:
On April 27 2015 22:48 North2 wrote: I haven't followed SC2 since WoL but I do like reading Top xx articles. Great read all around, but I gotta say your logic on Taeja is a little bullshit.
I think you're trying too hard tbh. I agree that there should be some attempt at valuing difficulty of matches and comparing them with actual prestige, but it really doesn't matter too much when it's about XX of ALL TIME of anything. I honestly don't know where your train of thought starts. I read your entire logic on why you put Taeja at #3 and read it 2 more times, yet everything you wrote makes no sense why he'd be in third place. If anything, I'd expect him to be in #7. This is just from reading your Foreword of this whole list and putting it side by side with what you said about Taeja. Like...what's the point of valuing Blizzcon over everything else if you're gonna put so much weight on the difficulty of opponents? I really don't get it.
At the very least, you're completely forgetting that this is the list of the greatest players of ALL TIME. MC found success in the highly volatile stages of the game back when I actually played SC2 and continued onwards as the game changed. The general vibe I get is that you're making a list of the greatest players currently, or the presumed equivalent of how they would fare if they played at their prime form. I think that's rather unfair since SC2 of now is not the whole history of SC2.
Michael Jordan is without a doubt the greatest basketball player of all time by most people's standards, but I kinda doubt he would be Top 1 if he played in his prime form today since the standards have been pushed up. Jack Nicklaus is at the very least Top 2 greatest golfers of all time (Tiger Woods being the other one) but I doubt he would even be top 10 now because the game has changed.
Because the context of players wins mattered to me. Who they beat along the way to win a tournament as well as the relative strength of their scenes. Like I said it was just a general guideline to give people a decent feel for how I ranked tournaments. I wasn't completely dismissive of what MC did in the early phases and I wasn't dismissive of what Taeja did internationally.
Taeja was essentially a conundrum. What would happen if there was a player who consistently beat the top players of his era over and over and over again in international lans, but could never really make it happen in prep tournaments beyond a few RO4s? But what if he had won so many and had beaten so many of the good players that it dwarfed his competition?
At the end of the day things like prestige and preparation formats and innovation can only take you so far. At some point the results of what you did and who you had to beat to get there eventually start outweighing those intangible aspects. And with Taeja he went past that point a long time ago.
I couldn't agree more with taeja's pick. he was winning the big name protoss in macro games when most players were just cheesing them. the only terran doing well, just like mc was winning everything when protoss was weak.
Not really though. In 2012 Mvp was still clearly better at the beginning of the BL/Infestor era, and by the end of that era no terran was winning anything. In 2014 every single terran player was quick to remind you that Taeja's tournament wins didn't have a single Code S protoss. I'd rate Maru making the Ro8 during all 3 protoss-won GSLs as being closer to "the only terran doing well" for that era.
MC on the other hand was the best Protoss in every single aspect of the game until Parting showed up. MC had 17 top 4 placements in premiers in the first 2 years of WoL, about the same as Taeja in his first 2 years after his first non-Code-A top 4. The difference between MC and Taeja? Besides MC's 2 GSLs, there's the fact that the next best Protosses in that era had 4 top 4's in events with Koreans. (Huk, Squirtle and Naniwa) Liquid'HerO had 3 top 4's.
Taeja's contemporaries: Polt and Innovation had 9 top 4 placements, and Bomber had 8. There were other top Korean terrans during Taeja's dominance, but MC was the only top Korean protoss. No one else in SC2 has been the best player of their race like MC, especially when their race was weakest.
ah I forgot, Zest was in code B when taeJa 3:0ed him at IEM Shenzhen.
Context is important! I was talking about Taeja's two wins in a sea of protoss domination, since the post was responding to someone who said Taeja was the best Terran when Protoss was dominating. IEM Shenzhen came after a bunch of terran buffs and a new terran-friendly map pool.
On April 28 2015 03:29 fishjie wrote: MVP should be GOAT because he is playing with crippling pain and still found ways to win, and during time when gg lord/winfestor broken combo made it impossible for terran to win in the late game
Also I find it funny that now this article bring up just how broken the end of WOL era was, even though back then ppl were banned for rightfully pointing out how bad the queen range patch was. Even poor avilo was mocked mercilessly by idra and incontrol for pointing this out on SOTG. its good that the truth is finally out
Haha. Had MarineKing not collapsed at the critical time, I'm sure we would still find some guys arguing that he was the better player for beating a Zerg in 2010 with 2 rax on close Metalopolis. Come on.
This “community” has indeed quite a ridiculous amount of taboos. It's somewhat understandable considering that most of the time the game has been in a pathetic state. Injustice naturally triggers anger; add the dazzling mirror that the Internet is, and of course you get dynamite. In this regard, the “patchzerg” word was funny because it really nailed something, yet failed to apply it correctly as the phenomenon was almost exclusively located out of Korea. I thus remember some anonymous lowmaster from late 2011 suddenly being competitive against ForGG in late 2012, and even making him ragequit on stream… Ugh. More than one year afterwards, I stumbled upon that very Zerg on ladder in HotS; he had become again the rageful random high master that he should have never ceased to be, and was now complaining about Terran being “broken” and whatnot, haha… How the wheel turns.
Retrospectively, it's also funny to remember some people calling Life “patchzerg” when he was actually the anti-patchzerg—which is why the finals against Mvp was close, with Life winning despite his best attempts at repeatedly playing into Mvp's hands. Joyous poltergeist through-and-through. At any rate he amply proved afterwards that he did not need at all the massive imbalance of the end of WoL to be successful. Same as all the Protoss champions of the ZParcraft era were good to brilliant players, even if mathematically there is “Heart of the Storm” written in tiny golden letters on a few trophies.
On April 27 2015 22:48 North2 wrote: I haven't followed SC2 since WoL but I do like reading Top xx articles. Great read all around, but I gotta say your logic on Taeja is a little bullshit.
I think you're trying too hard tbh. I agree that there should be some attempt at valuing difficulty of matches and comparing them with actual prestige, but it really doesn't matter too much when it's about XX of ALL TIME of anything. I honestly don't know where your train of thought starts. I read your entire logic on why you put Taeja at #3 and read it 2 more times, yet everything you wrote makes no sense why he'd be in third place. If anything, I'd expect him to be in #7. This is just from reading your Foreword of this whole list and putting it side by side with what you said about Taeja. Like...what's the point of valuing Blizzcon over everything else if you're gonna put so much weight on the difficulty of opponents? I really don't get it.
At the very least, you're completely forgetting that this is the list of the greatest players of ALL TIME. MC found success in the highly volatile stages of the game back when I actually played SC2 and continued onwards as the game changed. The general vibe I get is that you're making a list of the greatest players currently, or the presumed equivalent of how they would fare if they played at their prime form. I think that's rather unfair since SC2 of now is not the whole history of SC2.
Michael Jordan is without a doubt the greatest basketball player of all time by most people's standards, but I kinda doubt he would be Top 1 if he played in his prime form today since the standards have been pushed up. Jack Nicklaus is at the very least Top 2 greatest golfers of all time (Tiger Woods being the other one) but I doubt he would even be top 10 now because the game has changed.
Because the context of players wins mattered to me. Who they beat along the way to win a tournament as well as the relative strength of their scenes. Like I said it was just a general guideline to give people a decent feel for how I ranked tournaments. I wasn't completely dismissive of what MC did in the early phases and I wasn't dismissive of what Taeja did internationally.
Taeja was essentially a conundrum. What would happen if there was a player who consistently beat the top players of his era over and over and over again in international lans, but could never really make it happen in prep tournaments beyond a few RO4s? But what if he had won so many and had beaten so many of the good players that it dwarfed his competition?
At the end of the day things like prestige and preparation formats and innovation can only take you so far. At some point the results of what you did and who you had to beat to get there eventually start outweighing those intangible aspects. And with Taeja he went past that point a long time ago.
I couldn't agree more with taeja's pick. he was winning the big name protoss in macro games when most players were just cheesing them. the only terran doing well, just like mc was winning everything when protoss was weak.
Prep and innovation aren't intangibles. You clearly understood the valuation of the innovation aspect when it can change the landscape of the game as you have mentioned with...Rain I think? Prep is also an essential part of the game, otherwise there would be no series.
Difficulty of players can vary by so much that it's not really something to even attempt to try valuing by yourself. The condition of BOTH players can vary day by day, along with just a general affinity for some playstyles to beat others, especially on specific patches. If we started valuing every single win-loss like that, then we really need to look into every single game for every single person. Why is taeja the only one getting the special treatment by getting his accomplishments weighed more based on who he beat? It's very possible that Life didn't play at his best in any of taeja's matches, and it's also very possible that he played like a god against a lot of other players.
I don't even know a third of the people on this list, that's how out of touch I am. Still, I read all of it and I could at least say, "OK, I can agree to that". But then there's the logic of Taeja, and it sticks out like a sore thumb. The results are really what matters the most by a large margin. Your explanation gives me even more confidence that this is more of a list of the "Most Skilled Players of All Time", which just doesn't do the list justice. Either you explained it really badly or I'm just missing something, because Taeja's accomplishments didn't come anywhere near MC's from what I read while Taeja had to beat a lot of tough competition to do what he did.
Right now, I can agree with Taeja's spot at #3 and believe the whole rest of the rankings is shit because you didn't go into as much detail as you did with Taeja, or I can disagree with Taeja's spot at #3 and believe the rest of the rankings is great since you covered all aspects of the game rather fairly except for the difficulty of players.
Taeja wasn't getting special treatment. He just happened to be the only player to have won so many tournaments with so much high level competition that the first criteria started to outweigh the rest.
.
This is honestly all I needed to hear, and your long-winded explanation in the original list is just misleading.
Compared to everything else you considered, there's nothing more intangible than the play level of opponents on that particular day, on that particular patch, against that particular player, against that particular race, and even on that particular location. It finally started to make a lot more sense when I removed all the 'harder path' junk that's in there.
I've pinpointed what makes your writing so shady for a clueless person like me. It's when you were comparing Taeja and MC's wins 1:1 while insisting that MC had an easier time for most(which is totally ambiguous), and then adding and subtracting tournaments based on what you felt was equal. Why do all of this? Just compare by tournament prestige. It should have simply been noted that by tallying all of the tournament victories, Taeja should have been more renowned than MC based purely on results. I thought you were trying to justify Taeja's fewer tournament wins as counting for more because of the level of competition.
It's even more misleading considering MC's playstyle's ability to cause upsets for better or for worse (mostly for the better), especially in prep formats. He takes great calculated risks and adaptations that can sometimes fall flat on its face. On that note, does 'consistency' really need to be a category to be considered? I don't think slumps and bad finishes should even be tallied at all. To me it's like trying to make a list of the "Greatest Athletes of All Time" and saying, "Well, Jordan was a godlike basketball player, but he was kinda mediocre at golf and baseball".
I personally would still disagree since I don't think Top 4 means absolutely anything, which takes huge points out of Taeja's two IEM Top 4 finishes while putting much more value on MC's numerous, less difficult First/Second place finishes. I would respect your opinion though, and it'd be really close.
So you want me to remove all context for their wins and why the runs were impressive or not impressive? The details are what is telling about every run and every tournament and why I balanced it out the way I did. I've watched and analyzed and discussed this game from the beginning to now. There are probably only a handful of people in the world who have watched more SC2 than me. None have written as much. I have a very strong sense of how well they were playing on that day on that patch against that player and race and location.
Essentially the problem here is whether or not you trust my judgement. If not then there is no point in discussing this.
MC's style also hurt him at international lans. He went to way more lans than Taeja ever did and never got close to near the success Taeja had. I'm not sure why you're so ready to disregard the ability to adapt on the fly for what he did earlier in his career and WCS EU.
Yes consistency over time is something that needs to be considered. Squirtle was the single best player by a mile for exactly 2 months relative to his playing field, but he is not here and no one would ever put him in the top 15. The reason players like Boxer, Oov, Nada, Savior, Flash were considered bonjwas was because they were consistent over a long period of time.
And I did think top 4 was worth something and worth writing down. You're the only person I've met who said I should completely disregard all top 4 finishes.
Not sure what you mean by shady? I laid out the critiera, I wrote my reasons, I was honest about how I did what I did and I judged all players to the criteria equally.
MC's style also hurt him at international lans. He went to way more lans than Taeja ever did and never got close to near the success Taeja had. I'm not sure why you're so ready to disregard the ability to adapt on the fly for what he did earlier in his career and WCS EU.
That's what I'm saying, and that's why it's misleading.
Yes consistency over time is something that needs to be considered. Squirtle was the single best player by a mile for exactly 2 months relative to his playing field, but he is not here and no one would ever put him in the top 15. The reason players like Boxer, Oov, Nada, Savior, Flash were considered bonjwas was because they were consistent over a long period of time.
People with more big wins over a long period of time is how I see it. I wouldn't care to remember all the games that they lost because it really doesn't matter. MC's "poor performances in OSL" or Taeja's "bad results in prep formats" does not take away anything from what they've accomplished. In other words, there's a difference between 'consistently winning tournaments' and 'consistently not flopping'.
And I did think top 4 was worth something and worth writing down. You're the only person I've met who said I should completely disregard all top 4 finishes.
I'm not saying you should. I'm saying I disregard it. I would completely understand your ranking and have no problem with it.
So you want me to remove all context for their wins and why the runs were impressive or not impressive? The details are what is telling about every run and every tournament and why I balanced it out the way I did. I've watched and analyzed and discussed this game from the beginning to now. There are probably only a handful of people in the world who have watched more SC2 than me. None have written as much. I have a very strong sense of how well they were playing on that day on that patch against that player and race and location.
Essentially the problem here is whether or not you trust my judgement. If not then there is no point in discussing this.
That is what it boils down to, yes. I don't doubt it for a second that you have one of the best sense in valuing their play, and I'm saying it's still not reliable enough. Not only that, but it's a moot point. A win is a win. It's not the exact players they beat that matters, it's the level of competition of the entire tournament that would make the groundwork for an unbiased formula on how 'difficult' the tournaments were. There would certainly be luck involved on how the tournament played out, but that's just part of the game and it doesn't take away from their accomplishments.
On April 28 2015 03:29 fishjie wrote: MVP should be GOAT because he is playing with crippling pain and still found ways to win, and during time when gg lord/winfestor broken combo made it impossible for terran to win in the late game
Also I find it funny that now this article bring up just how broken the end of WOL era was, even though back then ppl were banned for rightfully pointing out how bad the queen range patch was. Even poor avilo was mocked mercilessly by idra and incontrol for pointing this out on SOTG. its good that the truth is finally out
Haha. Had MarineKing not collapsed at the critical time, I'm sure we would still find some guys arguing that he was the better player for beating a Zerg in 2010 with 2 rax on close Metalopolis. Come on.
This “community” has indeed quite a ridiculous amount of taboos. It's somewhat understandable considering that most of the time the game has been in a pathetic state. Injustice naturally triggers anger; add the dazzling mirror that the Internet is, and of course you get dynamite. In this regard, the “patchzerg” word was funny because it really nailed something, yet failed to apply it correctly as the phenomenon was almost exclusively located out of Korea. I thus remember some anonymous lowmaster from late 2011 suddenly being competitive against ForGG in late 2012, and even making him ragequit on stream… Ugh. More than one year afterwards, I stumbled upon that very Zerg on ladder in HotS; he had become again the rageful random high master that he should have never ceased to be, and was now complaining about Terran being “broken” and whatnot, haha… How the wheel turns.
Retrospectively, it's also funny to remember some people calling Life “patchzerg” when he was actually the anti-patchzerg—which is why the finals against Mvp was close, with Life winning despite his best attempts at repeatedly playing into Mvp's hands. Joyous poltergeist through-and-through. At any rate he amply proved afterwards that he did not need at all the massive imbalance of the end of WoL to be successful. Same as all the Protoss champions of the ZParcraft era were good to brilliant players, even if mathematically there is “Heart of the Storm” written in tiny golden letters on a few trophies.
The game has been in a pretty bad state at many times in its history. And then Blizzard brings on the nerf hammer which just swings the balance in another direction. Which makes anytime somebody won when their race was weak awesome. Fruiterdealer, Nestea, MC, MVP, and so on. And MVP especially because not only could he win when his race was weakened by nerfs, he also did it when his wrists were weak and causing him crippling pain that lesser mortals would have folded under.
There were some korean patchzergs I'd say Roro won using gglord/winfestor and then after HOTS he fell off until swarm host style came into favor, and then fell off again once it was nerfed. But yeah majority of them were foreigners. Which makes players like Scarlett who managed to stay elite in HOTS all the more impressive
As a terran player i just feel its necessary to say that i feel that MC added more innovation to Protoss than Teaga did for Terran. And while in comparing outright tournament wins mc vs teaga, with teaga pulling a bit ahead. I think it needs to be said that its odd for a player who seems to lack the ability to handle/prepare for preparation style tournaments such as wcs and gsl, also worth noting that wcs was an easier version of gsl in which teaga still seemed unable to perp himself for.
I think When you consider that MC won more money, did more for protoss in terms of innovation, has proven himself very strong at both preparation tornys and weekend tournaments, and finally and for most has shown himself to be more relevant over a longer period of time.
With the "GREAT RESET" that sent most of the koreans back home it should be noted that MC went further than teaga, and i know team support isnt a factor in the criteria but its important to note that mc is basically being sponsored, where as teaga has a better team to help him get further in prep tournaments and he still failed to get further than MC. However MC did have an easier group than teaga it doesn't change the fact that MC advanced and teaga didn't and sometimes when your comparing players that are neck in neck you got to compare there current form a little bit higher than there over all form. Especially when you consider that MC was relaventant/dominate for a longer period of time.
Haha taeja being #3 is like making some basketball player who won alot of college and high school championships ahead of players who won actual NBA championships. Its just silly.
On April 28 2015 14:54 testi759 wrote: Haha taeja being #3 is like making some basketball player who won alot of college and high school championships ahead of players who won actual NBA championships. Its just silly.
or rating john stockton (0 titles) higher than derek fisher (5 titles)
On April 28 2015 14:54 testi759 wrote: Haha taeja being #3 is like making some basketball player who won alot of college and high school championships ahead of players who won actual NBA championships. Its just silly.
or rating john stockton (0 titles) higher than derek fisher (5 titles)
it's not an analogous argument
But you really have to put Taeja ahead of the most successfull player of SC2 ? Because no one tops MC in terms of prize money. Also the quality of the tournaments/opponents etc.... . ok that's subjective but man... Taeja over MC ? The guy is the most successfull player and protoss of all time....
I'm curious if the bulk of the people complaining about Taeja's placement actually followed the scene closely since Taeja's first rise. Taeja has had multiple several-month long stretches (that is, every summer), over three years, where he would just crap on almost every other player in the world, if not all of them, as was discussed in the article itself. There was no chance in hell that Taeja would not land in the top 5. You're absolutely crazy if you think Taeja shouldn't even be in the top 10 due to never winning a GSL. Shit, the lack of a GSL is what makes deciding if he's a top 2 player of all time a relatively hard decision, not if he's a top 10
On April 28 2015 15:27 Gorlin wrote: I'm curious if the bulk of the people complaining about Taeja's placement actually followed the scene closely since Taeja's first rise. Taeja has had multiple several-month long stretches (that is, every summer), over three years, where he would just crap on almost every other player in the world, if not all of them, as was discussed in the article itself. There was no chance in hell that Taeja would not land in the top 5. You're absolutely crazy if you think Taeja shouldn't even be in the top 10 due to never winning a GSL. Shit, the lack of a GSL is what makes deciding if he's a top 2 player of all time a relatively hard decision, not if he's a top 10
It's not just GSL, It's the lack of winning when it matters. But who cares, it's just personal preference in the end.
On April 28 2015 14:54 testi759 wrote: Haha taeja being #3 is like making some basketball player who won alot of college and high school championships ahead of players who won actual NBA championships. Its just silly.
or rating john stockton (0 titles) higher than derek fisher (5 titles)
it's not an analogous argument
But you really have to put Taeja ahead of the most successfull player of SC2 ? Because no one tops MC in terms of prize money. Also the quality of the tournaments/opponents etc.... . ok that's subjective but man... Taeja over MC ? The guy is the most successfull player and protoss of all time....
i dont particularly like taeja but taeja > mc makes sense given the criteria used for this list.
On April 28 2015 14:54 testi759 wrote: Haha taeja being #3 is like making some basketball player who won alot of college and high school championships ahead of players who won actual NBA championships. Its just silly.
or rating john stockton (0 titles) higher than derek fisher (5 titles)
it's not an analogous argument
But you really have to put Taeja ahead of the most successfull player of SC2 ? Because no one tops MC in terms of prize money. Also the quality of the tournaments/opponents etc.... . ok that's subjective but man... Taeja over MC ? The guy is the most successfull player and protoss of all time....
i dont particularly like taeja but taeja > mc makes sense given the criteria used for this list.
Hard to argue that. Even if you look at MC's accomplishments, the wins and the level of competition he played against are certainly inferior to he top players like life/mvp.
I also can sort of see justifying Taeja>MC in account that a lot of Taeja's wins have been during the KeSPA era. His win at IEM Shenzen and the semifinals run at Blizzcon are his most impressive performances, in my opinion (looking back, his 2 gsl semi-final runs are actually fairly impressive).
MC's biggest claims are his incredible consistency, his innovation, and his GSL wins (which are among the least impressive gsl wins in the history of the gsl). It's still a tough decision regardless, and I would probably put Taeja below MC because of his complete lack of success in Korea.
I've already stated my opinion on this, and so have others in the thread multiple times, but I find it unjustifiable to put Taeja this high on the list without more success in Korean individual leagues.
Edit: ' In terms of judging criteria to select, how is it that you rating Blizzcon>GSL? That seems absurd to me, particularly considering most gsl fields are at least as rigorous as the world finals. Furthermore, the preparation based format is really far superior to the weekend tournament format. Remember the server issues and how it ruined the Innovation/taeja series? (granted, InnoVation showed a weakness in this moment).
In some way if you choose to value weekend tournaments so highly, you should also have considered proleague records highly. This would at least give the KeSPA players more of a reasonable chance. Didn't Flash and InnoVation go like 40-20 in 2013 proleague? How does that not mean anything?
My other complaint is that you haven't included consistency as something to consider. PartinG soon will be the most consistent player in the history of GSL. Does that not mean anything?
On April 28 2015 14:37 bulletbill wrote: As a terran player i just feel its necessary to say that i feel that MC added more innovation to Protoss than Teaga did for Terran. And while in comparing outright tournament wins mc vs teaga, with teaga pulling a bit ahead. I think it needs to be said that its odd for a player who seems to lack the ability to handle/prepare for preparation style tournaments such as wcs and gsl, also worth noting that wcs was an easier version of gsl in which teaga still seemed unable to perp himself for.
I think When you consider that MC won more money, did more for protoss in terms of innovation, has proven himself very strong at both preparation tornys and weekend tournaments, and finally and for most has shown himself to be more relevant over a longer period of time.
With the "GREAT RESET" that sent most of the koreans back home it should be noted that MC went further than teaga, and i know team support isnt a factor in the criteria but its important to note that mc is basically being sponsored, where as teaga has a better team to help him get further in prep tournaments and he still failed to get further than MC. However MC did have an easier group than teaga it doesn't change the fact that MC advanced and teaga didn't and sometimes when your comparing players that are neck in neck you got to compare there current form a little bit higher than there over all form. Especially when you consider that MC was relaventant/dominate for a longer period of time.
Sorry for grammer and spelling mistakes
I support this argumentation.
If MC's early wins are being discounted due to lower competition, then those of MarineKing and MVP must be even more, as they happened to be during a period of terran strength. This means MarineKing should have dropped out of the list completely and MVP can hardly be #1 over Life now anymore.
In the end it all comes down to where you want to see Taeja. To me MMA is much more impressive. He managed to be on top in korea at a time when terran dominance in leagues vanished against Mr.Terran himself in the finals of a GSL. Then he went to europe and managed to work himself up to the top there too against some of the best players around that moved to europe (MC, MVP). All this in real major tournaments: GSL and WCS', which require alot of consistency to go through and be on the top in the end.
This alone is more impressive than what taeja did imo. But then MMA again moves to korea and manages to establish himself at the very top again (GSL Global Finals and in GSL).
Taeja won alot of tournaments during a time where players living in korea didn't take foreign tournaments that serious and tried to not reveal their best builds and keep them for GSL and other stuff in korea. Also he was obviously underrated by others a bit and therefore they didn't exactly prepare against Taeja in the beginning of his dominant period.
Therefore to me Taeja belongs to the #5-10 of this ranking.
As you can see, stuchio, this argumentation is as least as right as yours. Such rankings can hardly be objective and always reflect the opinion.
I am just going to wonder how you wanna justify MVP over Life or the other way round in your ranking with all this being said. There hardly can be an objective measurment.
MVP: - most real major titles - alot of them were happening in GomTvT era - must be discounted due to lower competition in the beginning of SC2 (such as with MC) - most brilliant player the terran race has seen in SC2 (along with MC and Life)
Life: - less major titles (speaking of GSLs here) - some in era of Winfestors - not reliant on metagames, creates his own metagame there is the XvZ metagame and the XvLife metagame :D - most versatile player sc2 has seen - dominance in different metagame eras - most brilliant player zerg race has seen (along with MVP and MC)
Really hard decision what? And in the end there is no objective criteria to make a decision on based on how you argue for the fact that you couldn't decide elsewise than Taeja being #3.
Taeja didnt invent anything (other than MC, Life and MVP). He was good in a certain period of metagame that he didn't help to develop much himself, yes he understood it best (just as e.g. innovation was in his period but innovation mostly focused on korean events and innovation basically developed TvZ during his era, which taeja never did). Nevertheless he never dominated in korea (yes he dominated koreans abroad in a relatively short period of time, probably for the reasons I named above). In my subjective view, taeja can't objectively be #3 in this list. That puts too much away from other players achievement.
That teamliquid overrates their own players relevance in the history of SC2 has an hollow sound to me.
On April 28 2015 14:37 bulletbill wrote: As a terran player i just feel its necessary to say that i feel that MC added more innovation to Protoss than Teaga did for Terran. And while in comparing outright tournament wins mc vs teaga, with teaga pulling a bit ahead. I think it needs to be said that its odd for a player who seems to lack the ability to handle/prepare for preparation style tournaments such as wcs and gsl, also worth noting that wcs was an easier version of gsl in which teaga still seemed unable to perp himself for.
I think When you consider that MC won more money, did more for protoss in terms of innovation, has proven himself very strong at both preparation tornys and weekend tournaments, and finally and for most has shown himself to be more relevant over a longer period of time.
With the "GREAT RESET" that sent most of the koreans back home it should be noted that MC went further than teaga, and i know team support isnt a factor in the criteria but its important to note that mc is basically being sponsored, where as teaga has a better team to help him get further in prep tournaments and he still failed to get further than MC. However MC did have an easier group than teaga it doesn't change the fact that MC advanced and teaga didn't and sometimes when your comparing players that are neck in neck you got to compare there current form a little bit higher than there over all form. Especially when you consider that MC was relaventant/dominate for a longer period of time.
Sorry for grammer and spelling mistakes
I support this argumentation.
If MC's early wins are being discounted due to lower competition, then those of MarineKing and MVP must be even more, as they happened to be during a period of terran strength. This means MarineKing should have dropped out of the list completely and MVP can hardly be #1 over Life now anymore.
In the end it all comes down to where you want to see Taeja. To me MMA is much more impressive. He managed to be on top in korea at a time when terran dominance in leagues vanished against Mr.Terran himself in the finals of a GSL. Then he went to europe and managed to work himself up to the top there too against some of the best players around that moved to europe (MC, MVP). All this in real major tournaments: GSL and WCS', which require alot of consistency to go through and be on the top in the end.
This alone is more impressive than what taeja did imo. But then MMA again moves to korea and manages to establish himself at the very top again (GSL Global Finals and in GSL).
Taeja won alot of tournaments during a time where players living in korea didn't take foreign tournaments that serious and tried to not reveal their best builds and keep them for GSL and other stuff in korea. Also he was obviously underrated by others a bit and therefore they didn't exactly prepare against Taeja in the beginning of his dominant period.
Therefore to me Taeja belongs to the #5-10 of this ranking.
As you can see, stuchio, this argumentation is as least as right as yours. Such rankings can hardly be objective and always reflect the opinion.
I am just going to wonder how you wanna justify MVP over Life or the other way round in your ranking with all this being said. There hardly can be an objective measurment.
MVP: - most real major titles - alot of them were happening in GomTvT era - must be discounted due to lower competition in the beginning of SC2 (such as with MC) - most brilliant player the terran race has seen in SC2 (along with MC and Life)
Life: - less major titles (speaking of GSLs here) - some in era of Winfestors - not reliant on metagames, creates his own metagame - most versatile player sc2 has seen - dominance in different metagame eras - most brilliant player zerg race has seen (along with MVP and MC)
Really hard decision what? And in the end there is no objective criteria to make a decision on based on how you argue for the fact that you couldn't decide elsewise than Taeja being #3.
Mvp was a lot more consistent than Life has been. If you look at Life's career he has shown some vulnerability during times when the metagame did not exactly suit him. If anything Mvp represents the versatile all around player, with life being more stylized albeit nearly as great.
Life's achievements are so impressive I could see him being placed #1, even if I wouldn't agree with it. I do think several of Mvp's gsl wins are slightly less impressive (in terms of overall field). At the same time Mvp was by far the most dominant player we have ever seen during his 2011 run and won several of his gsl's in a completely dominant fashion. Mvp was also a player who fought through a lot of his only issues (his wrist) and through much of late 2012's bl/infestor shitshow. I still find Mvp's 6 gsl finals,4 championships and incredible consistency the most impressive thing we have seen in starcraft 2 to this date.
On April 28 2015 14:37 bulletbill wrote: As a terran player i just feel its necessary to say that i feel that MC added more innovation to Protoss than Teaga did for Terran. And while in comparing outright tournament wins mc vs teaga, with teaga pulling a bit ahead. I think it needs to be said that its odd for a player who seems to lack the ability to handle/prepare for preparation style tournaments such as wcs and gsl, also worth noting that wcs was an easier version of gsl in which teaga still seemed unable to perp himself for.
I think When you consider that MC won more money, did more for protoss in terms of innovation, has proven himself very strong at both preparation tornys and weekend tournaments, and finally and for most has shown himself to be more relevant over a longer period of time.
With the "GREAT RESET" that sent most of the koreans back home it should be noted that MC went further than teaga, and i know team support isnt a factor in the criteria but its important to note that mc is basically being sponsored, where as teaga has a better team to help him get further in prep tournaments and he still failed to get further than MC. However MC did have an easier group than teaga it doesn't change the fact that MC advanced and teaga didn't and sometimes when your comparing players that are neck in neck you got to compare there current form a little bit higher than there over all form. Especially when you consider that MC was relaventant/dominate for a longer period of time.
Sorry for grammer and spelling mistakes
I support this argumentation.
If MC's early wins are being discounted due to lower competition, then those of MarineKing and MVP must be even more, as they happened to be during a period of terran strength. This means MarineKing should have dropped out of the list completely and MVP can hardly be #1 over Life now anymore.
In the end it all comes down to where you want to see Taeja. To me MMA is much more impressive. He managed to be on top in korea at a time when terran dominance in leagues vanished against Mr.Terran himself in the finals of a GSL. Then he went to europe and managed to work himself up to the top there too against some of the best players around that moved to europe (MC, MVP). All this in real major tournaments: GSL and WCS', which require alot of consistency to go through and be on the top in the end.
This alone is more impressive than what taeja did imo. But then MMA again moves to korea and manages to establish himself at the very top again (GSL Global Finals and in GSL).
Taeja won alot of tournaments during a time where players living in korea didn't take foreign tournaments that serious and tried to not reveal their best builds and keep them for GSL and other stuff in korea. Also he was obviously underrated by others a bit and therefore they didn't exactly prepare against Taeja in the beginning of his dominant period.
Therefore to me Taeja belongs to the #5-10 of this ranking.
As you can see, stuchio, this argumentation is as least as right as yours. Such rankings can hardly be objective and always reflect the opinion.
I am just going to wonder how you wanna justify MVP over Life or the other way round in your ranking with all this being said. There hardly can be an objective measurment.
MVP: - most real major titles - alot of them were happening in GomTvT era - must be discounted due to lower competition in the beginning of SC2 (such as with MC) - most brilliant player the terran race has seen in SC2 (along with MC and Life)
Life: - less major titles (speaking of GSLs here) - some in era of Winfestors - not reliant on metagames, creates his own metagame - most versatile player sc2 has seen - dominance in different metagame eras - most brilliant player zerg race has seen (along with MVP and MC)
Really hard decision what? And in the end there is no objective criteria to make a decision on based on how you argue for the fact that you couldn't decide elsewise than Taeja being #3.
Mvp was a lot more consistent than Life has been. If you look at Life's career he has shown some vulnerability during times when the metagame did not exactly suit him. If anything Mvp represents the versatile all around player, with life being more stylized albeit nearly as great.
Life's achievements are so impressive I could see him being placed #1, even if I wouldn't agree with it. I do think several of Mvp's gsl wins are slightly less impressive (in terms of overall field). At the same time Mvp was by far the most dominant player we have ever seen during his 2011 run and won several of his gsl's in a completely dominant fashion. Mvp was also a player who fought through a lot of his only issues (his wrist) and through much of late 2012's bl/infestor shitshow. I still find Mvp's 6 gsl finals,4 championships and incredible consistency the most impressive thing we have seen in starcraft 2 to this date.
Sure but by this definition Jinro would have been the best foreigner we ever had, which he surely was not.
You see my point?
Also: Life is the most versatile player to me (MVP most consistent). He uses timings and playstyles that others dont even know to exist and dare to use. He makes semi-all-in play look like playing macro. He can switch back and forth within seconds in a single game based on the information he has and gives to the opponent. Probably the zerg race also allows to be a more versatile than the terran race. Life is the guy who makes the difference by building 4-6 lings more and using them 100% on point and to their best value. And if he doesn't then he is the only guy around that knows how to make up for an early/midgame disadvantage quickly by taking more risks while others continue to play on and keep being 10% behind, hope for a mistake of the opponent and wonder why they lose one of the upcoming battles in the end when mistakes are not being made. Life relies on his abilities as noone else. His risk/reward evaluation and the speed he does it in a game and the reading of players in the situation is so impressive. This comes along with inconsistency to some degree I guess.
I would put it down to the terran race allows to be more consistent and the zerg race allows to be more versatile as a player.
I´ve got TaeJa on #5 and MC on #6 on my list. They are both really amazing players and deserve to be among the top tier.
Now Mvp #2 and Life #1 would make this a decent Top 5, although you should have swaped Innovation and Polt, there simply wasnt a more dominating player in SC2 than Bogus in 2013. (not even Mvp was so invincible, winning a pro league for his team all alone)
On April 28 2015 15:47 Alucen-Will- wrote: My other complaint is that you haven't included consistency as something to consider. PartinG soon will be the most consistent player in the history of GSL. Does that not mean anything?
IMO, the consistency that should be valued in the context of a GOAT list is consistency of challenging for titles. While the fact that PartinG's on course for 10 consecutive Code S Ro.16s this season is ridiculous in itself, that's in the wider context of Starcraft. In other words, there's a difference between being a consistent participant and a consistent challenger; in my opinion, PartinG fits into the former category for GSL.
Put it this way; for a GOAT list, I'd deem soO's 4 finals to be a far more impressive achievement than 10 Ro.16s
On April 28 2015 15:47 Alucen-Will- wrote: My other complaint is that you haven't included consistency as something to consider. PartinG soon will be the most consistent player in the history of GSL. Does that not mean anything?
IMO, the consistency that should be valued in the context of a GOAT list is consistency of challenging for titles. While the fact that PartinG's on course for 10 consecutive Code S Ro.16s this season is ridiculous in itself, that's in the wider context of Starcraft. In other words, there's a difference between being a consistent participant and a consistent challenger; in my opinion, PartinG fits into the former category for GSL.
Put it this way; for a GOAT list, I'd deem soO's 4 finals to be a far more impressive achievement than 10 Ro.16s
I think that's fair. My issue is that consistency seems to have almost no value in Stuchio's list. Imagine if PartinG had instead invested all that time in foreign tournaments as Taeja did? These are the sort of Issues I have when you value foreign tournaments so highly and don't value consistency as a reasonable criteria
On April 28 2015 15:47 Alucen-Will- wrote: My other complaint is that you haven't included consistency as something to consider. PartinG soon will be the most consistent player in the history of GSL. Does that not mean anything?
IMO, the consistency that should be valued in the context of a GOAT list is consistency of challenging for titles. While the fact that PartinG's on course for 10 consecutive Code S Ro.16s this season is ridiculous in itself, that's in the wider context of Starcraft. In other words, there's a difference between being a consistent participant and a consistent challenger; in my opinion, PartinG fits into the former category for GSL.
Put it this way; for a GOAT list, I'd deem soO's 4 finals to be a far more impressive achievement than 10 Ro.16s
I think that's fair. My issue is that consistency seems to have almost no value in Stuchio's list. Imagine if PartinG had instead invested all that time in foreign tournaments as Taeja did? These are the sort of Issues I have when you value foreign tournaments so highly and don't value consistency as a reasonable criteria
On April 28 2015 17:01 ETisME wrote: This list just needs mvp to be in number 1 spot and the universe will agree and forget the indifference.
This exactly would make the list more biased (is the TL terran bias real?):
Discounting MC's & Nesteas's early succes in GomTvT era and not doing the same for MVP and MarineKing as terrans (parting should have marinekings or marus spot).
Also: Life is presence and hopefully future!
I could agree to MVP #1 if mc and nestea were not discounted and if Maru wasn't in the list but parting. If you put zest and maru in (presence) and discount nestea & mc (past), how can you argue to not discount mvp(past) but life(presence and past)?
On April 28 2015 15:47 Alucen-Will- wrote: In terms of judging criteria to select, how is it that you rating Blizzcon>GSL? That seems absurd to me, particularly considering most gsl fields are at least as rigorous as the world finals. Furthermore, the preparation based format is really far superior to the weekend tournament format. Remember the server issues and how it ruined the Innovation/taeja series? (granted, InnoVation showed a weakness in this moment).
In some way if you choose to value weekend tournaments so highly, you should also have considered proleague records highly. This would at least give the KeSPA players more of a reasonable chance. Didn't Flash and InnoVation go like 40-20 in 2013 proleague? How does that not mean anything?
My other complaint is that you haven't included consistency as something to consider. PartinG soon will be the most consistent player in the history of GSL. Does that not mean anything?
Blizzcon 2013-2014 was the only place where the best players from over the world compete. A place, where best Koreans and Koreiners (and a wild Naniwa) were to meet each other with equal chances of winning. It had the biggest prizepool. It also didn't have "weekend format" exactly - players had quite a few weeks to prepare for both their first opponent and all 15 others - a mix that takes best from both formats. I don't see why GSL with Koreans only should be considered superior.
Team leagues could possibly be included but they wouldn't have changed this list much. They could possibly push MMA over Polt (to my great joy) and Inno over Zest but that's all, i.e. Flash would still be irrelevant even for top 20.
Consistency is a double-edged sword without success: does Parting's lack of GSL wins together with his consistency actually tells about his greatness or his mediocrity on the top level? TaeJa at least won 11 weekend premiers.
I was suprised to see Polt this high on the list, but when i read the piece on him it made sense. The NA scene is the one i have been following the least in SC2, so he's always been kinda under the radar for me personally. I agree with Taeja's spot, but his lack of success in Korea will forever haunt his legacy.
That is what it boils down to, yes. I don't doubt it for a second that you have one of the best sense in valuing their play, and I'm saying it's still not reliable enough. Not only that, but it's a moot point. A win is a win. It's not the exact players they beat that matters, it's the level of competition of the entire tournament that would make the groundwork for an unbiased formula on how 'difficult' the tournaments were. There would certainly be luck involved on how the tournament played out, but that's just part of the game and it doesn't take away from their accomplishments.
I have to agree with this point. They way it works - if you were in top form, your positioned on this list will be affected by any potential upset in a tournament you're attending which I don't think makes that much sense.
To illustrate - I've opened random MLG, 2012, Spring Championship. In it late in the phase, SaSe won against Polt and Stephano only to fail against Alicia. Now if we would assess Alicia based on this result, it was rather unimpressive - SaSe was considered strong foreigner but definitely not top foreigner so overall nothing impressive. However Alicia at this MLG was in great form so without upset SaSe > Polt (or even SaSe > Stephano) his overall run would be rated higher as he probably would have beaten Polt anyway.
So, assuming for the sake of conversation that Alicia would beat Polt, is that fair to rate his run lower just because SaSe had single strong performance at the time?
On April 28 2015 17:01 ETisME wrote: This list just needs mvp to be in number 1 spot and the universe will agree and forget the indifference.
Mvp is all Wings, Life is the future.
honestly I think in terms of tournament performance etc, life is up there and sooner or later will surpass mvp.
But if we look at how much a player influenced the matchup, mvp wins hands down. He just keeps bringing up new things into the terran matchup.
even with my huge zerg biased in wol, I couldn't stop appreciating his insane skill. How many terrans can you go into a match and needs to be wary of whether he is going into bio or mech just because he is so solid in both.
How many times he kept getting unimaginable results against top players in their top form, Ironically it is one from each race for me: life, squirtle and innovation.
Lets assume a player1 who is considered weak at a certain point of time wins a single tournament1 and a) wins a second tournament b) drops out of the second tournament early
If player1 wins a second tournament2 afterwards (a) he will be then considered strong in this frame of time If player1 drops out of the second tournament2 (b) he continuously will be considered weak in this frame of time
Now it depends on if a) or b) is happening if loses against player1 in tournament1 weigh higher or not. This would mean that tournament2 had influence on the perforance of player1 in tournament1. In reality the future can't have influence on the past tho. Simplified this is evidence why this ranking and how it is evaluated is biased. You can stretch this to several tournaments and larger periods of time and get the same result.
- especially when it is concrete that discounts haven't been applied to all players and for all kind of possible reasons but only for those the judge wanted to search for and see. Some might not even possibly be analysed while others are. Is it fair to only take into account what you can more or less analyse and leave out those you are too much unsure about when it comes to discounting player achievements?
For instance: What is the reasoning behind soo being in the list and jaedong not being in? Both had an incredible run for second places and jaedong even one in global finals. Also jaedong has attended alot more tournaments and was constantly in the top 2 or 4 during this period (he even defeated taeja during taeja time: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_3_America/Premier ). In the case of taeja and polt the korean vs foreigner tournament factor obviously didn't apply (or they both should have lower ratings). In jaedong vs soo it seems like the GSL-factor was accounted for and deceisive.
On April 28 2015 17:01 ETisME wrote: This list just needs mvp to be in number 1 spot and the universe will agree and forget the indifference.
Mvp is all Wings, Life is the future.
honestly I think in terms of tournament performance etc, life is up there and sooner or later will surpass mvp.
But if we look at how much a player influenced the matchup, mvp wins hands down. He just keeps bringing up new things into the terran matchup.
The thing is when Mvp was in his prime they kept changing stuff all the time. When Life was and is, the game is fairly stable so there's really no need to revolutionize matchups every other month - you can focus on refinement.
On April 28 2015 17:01 ETisME wrote: This list just needs mvp to be in number 1 spot and the universe will agree and forget the indifference.
Mvp is all Wings, Life is the future.
honestly I think in terms of tournament performance etc, life is up there and sooner or later will surpass mvp.
But if we look at how much a player influenced the matchup, mvp wins hands down. He just keeps bringing up new things into the terran matchup.
The thing is when Mvp was in his prime they kept changing stuff all the time. When Life was and is, the game is fairly stable so there's really no need to revolutionize matchups every other month - you can focus on refinement.
But mvp ghost for example forced a patch. His mech opening didn't rely much on patch neither
While the revolutionary patches for zerg like infestor queen didn't get to meta until eu zerg innovated the gasless opening and bl infestors. Neither did the stephano roach max style.
Life did not lead to any major innovative changes in zerg play. I guess some may see this as life Is more unique.
On April 28 2015 17:01 ETisME wrote: This list just needs mvp to be in number 1 spot and the universe will agree and forget the indifference.
Mvp is all Wings, Life is the future.
honestly I think in terms of tournament performance etc, life is up there and sooner or later will surpass mvp.
But if we look at how much a player influenced the matchup, mvp wins hands down. He just keeps bringing up new things into the terran matchup.
The thing is when Mvp was in his prime they kept changing stuff all the time. When Life was and is, the game is fairly stable so there's really no need to revolutionize matchups every other month - you can focus on refinement.
Life did not lead to any major innovative changes in zerg play. I guess some may see this as life Is more unique.
What? I think Life's influence on Zerg is almost if not equal to NesTea's.
I credit him for ushering in more micro-oriented, aggressive and reactionary Zerg play. Especially with mapping out his various early pool openings. Then there's the dawn of HotS where he showed Zerg's the way in dealing with bio/mine. Back when Life had risen to being a champ, I recall numerous KR Zergs stating they had difficulty in replicating his style of play which was very unique at the time.
On April 28 2015 17:01 ETisME wrote: This list just needs mvp to be in number 1 spot and the universe will agree and forget the indifference.
Mvp is all Wings, Life is the future.
honestly I think in terms of tournament performance etc, life is up there and sooner or later will surpass mvp.
But if we look at how much a player influenced the matchup, mvp wins hands down. He just keeps bringing up new things into the terran matchup.
The thing is when Mvp was in his prime they kept changing stuff all the time. When Life was and is, the game is fairly stable so there's really no need to revolutionize matchups every other month - you can focus on refinement.
Life did not lead to any major innovative changes in zerg play. I guess some may see this as life Is more unique.
What? I think Life's influence on Zerg is almost if not equal to NesTea's.
I credit him for ushering in more micro-oriented, aggressive and reactionary Zerg play. Especially with mapping out his various early pool openings. Then there's the dawn of HotS where he showed Zerg's the way in dealing with bio/mine. Back when Life had risen to being a champ, I recall numerous KR Zergs stating they had difficulty in replicating his style of play which was very unique at the time.
Nestea really pushed the modern drone timing, you can just see why he is so good at zerg in zvz. He also invented the muta style.
Ling on the other hand played based on older builds, he just played them better. All the zergs were pretty much using ling banelings mutas, life just played better, but he didn't show zerg how to play against it as far as I remember.
Like I said he is unique, but I don't think he revolutionized the matchup. Dark on the other hand is pretty impressive with his ling baneling roach corruptor zvt and interesting, so is stephano in this area but surely both of them don't have the success as life has.
On April 28 2015 17:01 ETisME wrote: This list just needs mvp to be in number 1 spot and the universe will agree and forget the indifference.
Mvp is all Wings, Life is the future.
honestly I think in terms of tournament performance etc, life is up there and sooner or later will surpass mvp.
But if we look at how much a player influenced the matchup, mvp wins hands down. He just keeps bringing up new things into the terran matchup.
The thing is when Mvp was in his prime they kept changing stuff all the time. When Life was and is, the game is fairly stable so there's really no need to revolutionize matchups every other month - you can focus on refinement.
But mvp ghost for example forced a patch.
Well, IIRC ThorZaIN forced a patch for Thors. So did - I think - Jinro? I don't recall if it was his "mech" TvP that forced change Thor's skill into spell.
On April 28 2015 20:47 ETisME wrote: Dark on the other hand is pretty impressive with his ling baneling roach corruptor zvt and interesting
that's YugiOh, except Yugi would also add infestors
that's true, I personally think Dark is the one who perfected the timings though or maybe it was Dark's mechanics making it more viable. anyway, I still don't think life has innovated much, I think the most credit I give him for is that you can go pure lings against the early hellion pressure?
On April 28 2015 17:01 ETisME wrote: This list just needs mvp to be in number 1 spot and the universe will agree and forget the indifference.
Mvp is all Wings, Life is the future.
honestly I think in terms of tournament performance etc, life is up there and sooner or later will surpass mvp.
But if we look at how much a player influenced the matchup, mvp wins hands down. He just keeps bringing up new things into the terran matchup.
The thing is when Mvp was in his prime they kept changing stuff all the time. When Life was and is, the game is fairly stable so there's really no need to revolutionize matchups every other month - you can focus on refinement.
But mvp ghost for example forced a patch.
Well, IIRC ThorZaIN forced a patch for Thors. So did - I think - Jinro? I don't recall if it was his "mech" TvP that forced change Thor's skill into spell.
Select is the reason bunkers get changed every fricking patch ^_^ and the reason why there are those neutral depots at the bottom of the chokepoint between your main and natural lol.
Also qxc and Morrow with the early/ mass reaper builds...
That is what it boils down to, yes. I don't doubt it for a second that you have one of the best sense in valuing their play, and I'm saying it's still not reliable enough. Not only that, but it's a moot point. A win is a win. It's not the exact players they beat that matters, it's the level of competition of the entire tournament that would make the groundwork for an unbiased formula on how 'difficult' the tournaments were. There would certainly be luck involved on how the tournament played out, but that's just part of the game and it doesn't take away from their accomplishments.
I have to agree with this point. They way it works - if you were in top form, your positioned on this list will be affected by any potential upset in a tournament you're attending which I don't think makes that much sense.
To illustrate - I've opened random MLG, 2012, Spring Championship. In it late in the phase, SaSe won against Polt and Stephano only to fail against Alicia. Now if we would assess Alicia based on this result, it was rather unimpressive - SaSe was considered strong foreigner but definitely not top foreigner so overall nothing impressive. However Alicia at this MLG was in great form so without upset SaSe > Polt (or even SaSe > Stephano) his overall run would be rated higher as he probably would have beaten Polt anyway.
So, assuming for the sake of conversation that Alicia would beat Polt, is that fair to rate his run lower just because SaSe had single strong performance at the time?
I included players having hot runs as players that would count (i.e. Sjow, Haypro and Patience all fell under this category for specific tournaments).
On April 28 2015 17:01 ETisME wrote: This list just needs mvp to be in number 1 spot and the universe will agree and forget the indifference.
Mvp is all Wings, Life is the future.
honestly I think in terms of tournament performance etc, life is up there and sooner or later will surpass mvp.
But if we look at how much a player influenced the matchup, mvp wins hands down. He just keeps bringing up new things into the terran matchup.
The thing is when Mvp was in his prime they kept changing stuff all the time. When Life was and is, the game is fairly stable so there's really no need to revolutionize matchups every other month - you can focus on refinement.
But mvp ghost for example forced a patch.
Well, IIRC ThorZaIN forced a patch for Thors. So did - I think - Jinro? I don't recall if it was his "mech" TvP that forced change Thor's skill into spell.
ThorZaIN got the thors nerfed even faster than Mvp got the ghosts iirc. And his build was hilarious.
On April 28 2015 20:47 ETisME wrote: Dark on the other hand is pretty impressive with his ling baneling roach corruptor zvt and interesting
that's YugiOh, except Yugi would also add infestors
that's true, I personally think Dark is the one who perfected the timings though or maybe it was Dark's mechanics making it more viable. anyway, I still don't think life has innovated much, I think the most credit I give him for is that you can go pure lings against the early hellion pressure?
Imo life showed a lot of innovation in the micro/ling usage department. His understanding of the way to make simple lings one of the most efficient units in the game is still un paralleled.
My favorite part about the thor nerf was the reasoning.
"This had nothing to do wih Thorzain beating MC, I swear! We knew about this imba build the entire time even though no one in the history of SC2 has used it."
On April 29 2015 00:17 stuchiu wrote: My favorite part about the thor nerf was the reasoning.
"This had nothing to do wih Thorzain beating MC, I swear! We knew about this imba build the entire time even though no one in the history of SC2 has used it."
The truth is pre-nerf Thors were taking down destructible rocks too fast and special someone wasn't happy about it.
TaeJa never reach a single gsl final and not even wcs final.. I don't think he deserve his spot but Team Liquid article so... Top 2-1 gonna be Life-Mvp i guess, well where is PartinG please?
On April 28 2015 20:47 ETisME wrote: Dark on the other hand is pretty impressive with his ling baneling roach corruptor zvt and interesting
that's YugiOh, except Yugi would also add infestors
that's true, I personally think Dark is the one who perfected the timings though or maybe it was Dark's mechanics making it more viable. anyway, I still don't think life has innovated much, I think the most credit I give him for is that you can go pure lings against the early hellion pressure?
i think you need to look at it from a perspective of not inventing strategies but changing the strategies that are available with your own micro/playstyle. nobody uses zerglings like life but thousands of people have been using lings before him
On April 29 2015 00:17 stuchiu wrote: My favorite part about the thor nerf was the reasoning.
"This had nothing to do wih Thorzain beating MC, I swear! We knew about this imba build the entire time even though no one in the history of SC2 has used it."
The reasoning for thor nerf actually went like this.
"The metagame evolved naturally. Even thou we find nothing to be overpowered, we will not allow this because this does not fall into the category of Blizzards allowed metagame. This is our game and we will only allowed it to be played the way we want."
Some rare strategies involve mass numbers of Thors using 250mm Strike Cannons to lock down protoss, leaving them with few options for response. While these situations are rare, and the strategies aren’t necessarily overpowered, there were still a few things we didn’t like.
First, we definitely don’t like seeing Thors en masse. Due to the visual size of the unit, as well as a small pathing radius, Thors can obscure the other units in your army too easily. This can be problematic because it's important to know roughly how many units an opponent has when scouting. We want the Thor to be the type of unit that you add to your main army, and we definitely don’t want them to be the core of your army to the point where you strive to build as many as possible.
Also blizzard acting like this was probably my biggest reason for quitting the game. So you saying that there is anything "favorite" about the change, actually really stinged my heart. Not many times I have yelled at my screen, but reading patch 1.3.3 was one of them.
On April 29 2015 02:02 ToToRoKappa wrote: TaeJa never reach a single gsl final and not even wcs final.. I don't think he deserve his spot but Team Liquid article so... Top 2-1 gonna be Life-Mvp i guess, well where is PartinG please?
Who beat him (and when) in his semi-final GSL runs?
On April 29 2015 02:02 ToToRoKappa wrote: TaeJa never reach a single gsl final and not even wcs final.. I don't think he deserve his spot but Team Liquid article so... Top 2-1 gonna be Life-Mvp i guess, well where is PartinG please?
Who beat him (and when) in his semi-final GSL runs?
On April 29 2015 02:02 ToToRoKappa wrote: TaeJa never reach a single gsl final and not even wcs final.. I don't think he deserve his spot but Team Liquid article so... Top 2-1 gonna be Life-Mvp i guess, well where is PartinG please?
Who beat him (and when) in his semi-final GSL runs?
Life when he won GSL and RorO when he won GSL.
I think he was trying to illustrate that Taeja lost to eventual champions in the BL/Infestor era.
==
Additionally, he lost in both of his ro8 runs to eventual finalists (Squirtle and MC) xD
On April 29 2015 02:02 ToToRoKappa wrote: TaeJa never reach a single gsl final and not even wcs final.. I don't think he deserve his spot but Team Liquid article so... Top 2-1 gonna be Life-Mvp i guess, well where is PartinG please?
Who beat him (and when) in his semi-final GSL runs?
Life when he won GSL and RorO when he won GSL.
So as I see it, Taeja really got 2nd in both of those tournaments
On April 29 2015 02:02 ToToRoKappa wrote: TaeJa never reach a single gsl final and not even wcs final.. I don't think he deserve his spot but Team Liquid article so... Top 2-1 gonna be Life-Mvp i guess, well where is PartinG please?
Who beat him (and when) in his semi-final GSL runs?
Life when he won GSL and RorO when he won GSL.
So as I see it, Taeja really got 2nd in both of those tournaments
Nah, let's be real here. Life and RorO both crushed him and the 2nd place finishers put up a much better fight. I'll go with third best though.
That is what it boils down to, yes. I don't doubt it for a second that you have one of the best sense in valuing their play, and I'm saying it's still not reliable enough. Not only that, but it's a moot point. A win is a win. It's not the exact players they beat that matters, it's the level of competition of the entire tournament that would make the groundwork for an unbiased formula on how 'difficult' the tournaments were. There would certainly be luck involved on how the tournament played out, but that's just part of the game and it doesn't take away from their accomplishments.
I have to agree with this point. They way it works - if you were in top form, your positioned on this list will be affected by any potential upset in a tournament you're attending which I don't think makes that much sense.
To illustrate - I've opened random MLG, 2012, Spring Championship. In it late in the phase, SaSe won against Polt and Stephano only to fail against Alicia. Now if we would assess Alicia based on this result, it was rather unimpressive - SaSe was considered strong foreigner but definitely not top foreigner so overall nothing impressive. However Alicia at this MLG was in great form so without upset SaSe > Polt (or even SaSe > Stephano) his overall run would be rated higher as he probably would have beaten Polt anyway.
So, assuming for the sake of conversation that Alicia would beat Polt, is that fair to rate his run lower just because SaSe had single strong performance at the time?
I included players having hot runs as players that would count (i.e. Sjow, Haypro and Patience all fell under this category for specific tournaments).
If you're gonna go through that much trouble, why not just go by what I suggested? At the very least, someone had to beat the tournament favorites and the player in question probably had to beat the person that beat them. I.E. Top 5 Zerg beat Top 1 zerg, and then Taeja came in and beat Top 5 Zerg. In this case, there's at least some solid proof that Top 5 Zerg was in prime form or even better than their usual best(that, or Top 1 Zerg was in bad form and would have lost anyways if he went up against Taeja), and it was just Taeja's day to win. Your balancing act just feels like too much effort in trying to prove that Taeja was more skilled than MC(which you did successfully, imo). Individual skill doesn't mean anything for a list like this, it's what they've done with it that counts.
We're indeed at an impasse. I did still enjoy the rest of your article though.
On April 28 2015 14:54 testi759 wrote: Haha taeja being #3 is like making some basketball player who won alot of college and high school championships ahead of players who won actual NBA championships. Its just silly.
or rating john stockton (0 titles) higher than derek fisher (5 titles)
it's not an analogous argument
That doesn't fit the analogy at all. John Stockton played at the highest competition and won countless awards like mvp and a fuckton of awards for being the assist leader in the entire nba and leader for steals, etc.
Taejas success comes winning easy competition. To put him the 3rd all time greatest sc2 player for winning a bunch of easier competition is jusy outright silly.
On April 28 2015 14:54 testi759 wrote: Haha taeja being #3 is like making some basketball player who won alot of college and high school championships ahead of players who won actual NBA championships. Its just silly.
or rating john stockton (0 titles) higher than derek fisher (5 titles)
it's not an analogous argument
That doesn't fit the analogy at all. John Stockton played at the highest competition and won countless awards like mvp and a fuckton of awards for being the assist leader in the entire nba and leader for steals, etc.
Taejas success comes winning easy competition. To put him the 3rd all time greatest sc2 player for winning a bunch of easier competition is jusy outright silly.
"Easy competition" doesn't leave you with winning records against almost every other player on this list.
As I'm very slow I just realized that with Mvp and Life being granted the top 2 spots there will be no parting in the 15 greatest players of all times, hahaha.
I love how this articles started very seriously and ended up being best troll ever, gj
On April 29 2015 22:15 Gwavajuice wrote: As I'm very slow I just realized that with Mvp and Life being granted the top 2 spots there will be no parting in the 15 greatest players of all times, hahaha.
I love how this articles started very seriously and ended up being best troll ever, gj
Yes, because a well-written, passionate and very thorough ranking is such a good way to troll.
On April 29 2015 22:15 Gwavajuice wrote: As I'm very slow I just realized that with Mvp and Life being granted the top 2 spots there will be no parting in the 15 greatest players of all times, hahaha.
I love how this articles started very seriously and ended up being best troll ever, gj
Yes, because a well-written, passionate and very thorough ranking is such a good way to troll.
Exactly! You may not now french writer Romain Gary (1914-1980) he got the "Prix Goncourt" in 1956 - most prestigious price for a french language novel - and in 1970 he"created" a fake author : Emile Ajar, started publishing books under this name, using a family relative to impersonate him during interviews and public appearences. This fake Emile Ajar received the 'Prix Goncourt' in 1975.
Only after Gary's death, his relative revealed the whole thing. To this day, Gary is the only author to have received the 'Prix Goncourt' twice
Well-written, passionate and very thorough writing are, of course, the best trolls
On April 28 2015 14:54 testi759 wrote: Haha taeja being #3 is like making some basketball player who won alot of college and high school championships ahead of players who won actual NBA championships. Its just silly.
or rating john stockton (0 titles) higher than derek fisher (5 titles)
it's not an analogous argument
That doesn't fit the analogy at all. John Stockton played at the highest competition and won countless awards like mvp and a fuckton of awards for being the assist leader in the entire nba and leader for steals, etc.
Taejas success comes winning easy competition. To put him the 3rd all time greatest sc2 player for winning a bunch of easier competition is jusy outright silly.
"Easy competition" doesn't leave you with winning records against almost every other player on this list.
Having winning records over certain players doesn't mean much. Accomplishments do. Supernova has a winning record vs nestea and violet has a winning record over mvp. But nestea amd mvp are way more accomplished than the other 2.
On April 29 2015 02:02 ToToRoKappa wrote: TaeJa never reach a single gsl final and not even wcs final.. I don't think he deserve his spot but Team Liquid article so... Top 2-1 gonna be Life-Mvp i guess, well where is PartinG please?
Who beat him (and when) in his semi-final GSL runs?
Life when he won GSL and RorO when he won GSL.
When you think about it there are some parallels between Life beating Mvp and Federer beating Sampras. Sure - Federer didn't beat Sampras in the final but they were two greatest players in the history of the game, perhaps greatest (although many would make a case for Nadal who - I feel - is more like TaeJa). They played only once - the same as Life and Mvp. And they went all the way 3:2 and 4:3.
Pretty sure Bisu won a game or two why isn't he here
Also if you guys wanna know what bias is, I'll refer you to the Brood War Power Ranks where Flash was consistently ranked #1 month in month out even though he didn't win shit and didn't even make the finals in over a year (if not two).
On April 28 2015 14:54 testi759 wrote: Haha taeja being #3 is like making some basketball player who won alot of college and high school championships ahead of players who won actual NBA championships. Its just silly.
or rating john stockton (0 titles) higher than derek fisher (5 titles)
it's not an analogous argument
That doesn't fit the analogy at all. John Stockton played at the highest competition and won countless awards like mvp and a fuckton of awards for being the assist leader in the entire nba and leader for steals, etc.
Taejas success comes winning easy competition. To put him the 3rd all time greatest sc2 player for winning a bunch of easier competition is jusy outright silly.
"Easy competition" doesn't leave you with winning records against almost every other player on this list.
Having winning records over certain players doesn't mean much. Accomplishments do. Supernova has a winning record vs nestea and violet has a winning record over mvp. But nestea amd mvp are way more accomplished than the other 2.
You contradict yourself... you claim he didnt play at highest competition and played college and high school crap, yet when presented that during his play and all his "easy" wins, he has winning record against all other top players and probably has best win ratio when we combine those 15 players only you say winning records against best dont matter, only accomplishments... and he has most of those too... but you dont accept it because you consider those accomplishments "easy", even tho he amassed winning record against the best on the way to those accomplishments. Not to mention how he consistently beat people who were considered "gods"(at least by insanely biased Artosis) at a time, of all 3 races... zest, soO, innovation etc.
How exactly did he get winning records against all best players of all time(and best at the time) if he played high school and college? Or how people keep saying that other guy was having a bad day every time Taeja beats them. Taeja getting high(but not winning) in preparation tournaments without preparing and only playing ladder to practice is considered a failure, but "best" players losing to Taeja in non preparation tournament is a "bad day", jet lag, "easy tournament" etc etc.
Clearly shows who is biased... and its not the OP... His accomplishments dont matter, and his winning record against the best doesnt matter too... all that matters is GSL!!!!!1!!1!!1!!(even tho he stomps most of those who win GSL or get high in it in all other tournaments where skill matters most... preparing for everyone is harder than preparing for 1 guy... as preparing for 1 guy is like consumable boost to skill, you use it to beat 1 guy and then what if you have to play another right after and its still on cooldown?) Kespa > all i guess... and when they are forced back to korea, suddenly GSL has more koreigners than Kespa... oooooooooops!
And those that say MC got further after returning... Taeja was semi retired already after Blizzcon... he pretty much lost everything he played and didnt even try to qualify for most tournaments, and yet he got into Code S ahead of other "best" players
"Reset" happened after he semi retired, so saying how he cant beat people now after returning is showing that he is not good is silly...
Thank you so much for these articles ! It's so refreshing and interesting to read your comment on the player and some history about their rival. Can't wait for the top 2 !!! I'm so thrilled by this that my brain feels like saying "thank you" in english is not big enough or doesn't reflect my thought.... So I will say in my native language : "Merci beaucoup".
On April 30 2015 23:47 gamebouille wrote: Thank you so much for these articles ! It's so refreshing and interesting to read your comment on the player and some history about their rival. Can't wait for the top 2 !!! I'm so thrilled by this that my brain feels like saying "thank you" in english is not big enough or doesn't reflect my thought.... So I will say in my native language : "Merci beaucoup".
EPT
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