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On July 19 2014 21:27 Radicalness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2014 20:35 TheDwf wrote:On July 19 2014 20:16 Radicalness wrote:On July 19 2014 20:02 TheDwf wrote:On July 19 2014 18:47 Tanzklaue wrote:
people are saying "well, taeja doesn't play against real high level koreans [Bullshit if you ask me], he has to prove himself against a Code S veteran."
Taeja crushes Zest 3-0 and makes it look easy. and of course people try to find new excuses now so they don't have to admit that some of the koreans outside of WCS Korea are just as good as the ones in it. Or people don't only look at the latest result... TaeJa 3-0 Zest ... and include some of the previous ones: TaeJa 0-3 Pigbaby TaeJa 0-2 First TaeJa 0-2 Jim Yes, let's include some previous results: TaeJa 26-0 over a span of winning HSC, Dreamhack and ro16 of WCS America. In the meantime, Zest failed to make the finals in a non-premier tournament, the SHOUTcraft Invitational. What kind of logic is that... Zest lost 3-4 in a close series to the eventual winner. With your reasoning HuK > Zest because top4 of a Premier Tournament with a tier3 line-up is better than third at a Major event with like 6 players being GSL playoffs material? What does Huk have to do with anything? Don't make fun of my reasoning when you guys are arguing Zest > TaeJa when TaeJa just swept Zest. I'm not trying to discredit Zest's accomplishments or Shoutcraft or anything. TaeJa isn't even one of my favorite players. I'm just saying TaeJa and Zest were arguably the only two players who could make claims for the best player in the world right now and TaeJa just beat him 3-0. In a month or two it could easily switch since so many more tournaments will be played over that time. Sure, it's close right now with no player really standing out extremely over another but I think it's dumb to discredit TaeJa just because he no longer plays in the GSL. His wins over Life and Zest show that.
Nowhere did I start a "is TaeJa or Zest better than the other" debate. As far as I'm concerned the "best player in the world" title makes little sense in the SC2 environment. I am perfectly aware that TaeJa can compete with Code S players; I didn't forget his RO4 run in the last WoL GSL, nor his RO16 in the first HotS one, nor his numerous wins against Life or Bogus, etc. But I also know how to weigh his victories accordingly when he faces inferior competition like at the HSC or Dreamhack.
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So far IEM puts DH to shame. Sick semifinals, sick games, the best interviews ever. The moment when Snute was rushed by fans after his loss and he was fine giving tons of autographs was special. Too bad the times aren't great, and the venue failed on the first two days.
Now I really hope Jaedong wis, but I am already happy no matter what happens, only awesome players and games left (since the ro8 anyway).
Thanks for the recap, I watched the vods, but not the PvP.
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Man it's too bad Taeja only plays against foreigners and can't actually beat real Code S opponents. Oh wait...
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10000 dollar mainprize? Taeja had this from the start
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I just watched the VODs and... wow. Zest played way below his level.
Game 1. TaeJa gets away with CC rax gas into 2 rax Medivacs and a 8'20 third. Zest opts for the now classic colo dual forge 4 gas Stormless army. OK. He defends without troubles TaeJa's vague attempts at dropping. OK. At 15'30 he has started 3-0-3 and his 7th (!) colo, and he still has 400 gas left; why not build an archives now? Soon after he's max, with gas banked, and he still doesn't start the Archives. He only starts it at 17'10. When 3-0-3 completes he does nothing. The whole point of his play is to aim at this timing, when Terran is still 2-2 with not enough Vikings to handle the Zealots/Stalkers/Colossi army. But Zest sits. He doesn't even try to pressure TaeJa's fourth, nor does he try to capitalize on his superior upgrades. His composition has a clear expiry date but he lets time pass. Meanwhile, TaeJa strenghthens his composition with more Ghosts/Vikings then attacks Zest's fourth before he has Storm (see the consequences of the late archives). Zest inexplicably Blinks all his Stalkers in front of TaeJa's bio despite his Zealots and Colossi not even being yet in the battle and gets rolled. Pigbaby's usage of the colo dual forge was considerably superior.
Game 2. Zest goes for a 2-bases colo timing but forgets Warpgate and only starts it at 7'05, i.e. 3 minutes late. He does not immediately produce from his unique gate to compensate. As a result, he gets his first Sentries only at 9 minutes, which means they have little time to bank energy before the push (same pattern for the 3 ones he warps at 9'40, which only come with a single Forcefield for the battle). He's also forced to chrono Warpgate instead of his colo production. His first Colossus almost dies to TaeJa's stim timing because he has no Sentry to Forcefield the bio away (this is critical as a wounded colo dies much earlier and thus deals of course less damage). Luckily for him, he catches TaeJa out of position despite having... less supply when he attacks. Since the execution of his build is off, he floats 450 minerals after his second warp-in despite having 7 gates. He would have also been supply blocked even if TaeJa had not destroyed his proxy pylon (93/100 with no Pylon started when he needs 14 supply for each warp-in). He has no Guardian Shield. His injured colo is pulled back from TaeJa's charge but is quickly destroyed by a Marauder coming from the main. The third colo comes late to the party when most of his army is already wiped. The MSC then arrives to witness the disaster and casts a Time Warp to slow the corrosion of the metal on the ground before being destroyed by 2 Vikings. Despite all of this Zest is still not in a completely hopeless position as TaeJa lost tons of SCVs… But Zest doesn't immediately remake his MSC despite having the gas for it; he starts it at 13'15 despite losing it at 11'35. When TaeJa pulls SCVs for the second time, scouted by Zest's Observer, he inexplicably moves his whole army towards the main, then wants to come back to his natural and thus has to funnel all his troops through the ramp with colos going full BW Dragoons on the ledge as a result.
Game 3. Zest scouts gas first and tries a 3g Stalker counter-attack. Why not. He does not poke TaeJa's natural, if only with a Probe, to check if the Bunker was done in time (which was not the case here). He waits 9 Stalkers to start destroying the rocks before attacking from there. The onslaught is somewhat successful but he does nothing at home. No transition. He doesn't launch any building despite already floating 500 minerals after his 9' warp-in and still building Probes (i.e. his bank would only increase over time). He wakes up only at 10 minutes to build 2 gas at his natural. He's still on 3 gates despite floating now 1k mineral. Still no tech. Only at 10'55 does he add 4 gates to match his income. It has been 5 minutes now that he's on his basic 3gR infrastructure. But now it is too late; he's still in TaeJa's natural with a bunch of unupgraded Zealots/Stalkers and only one Sentry versus stimmed bio + Medivacs. After that he still finds a way to blunder with his MSC, unrealistically trying to kill off a 35 hp flying OC with a unit void of any anti-air.
Uh… It's no wonder Zest got 0-3'ed here. His play was barely Code A level.
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Game 1. TaeJa gets away with CC rax gas into 2 rax Medivacs and a 8'20 third. Zest opts for the now classic colo dual forge 4 gas Stormless army. OK. He defends without troubles TaeJa's vague attempts at dropping. OK. At 15'30 he has started 3-0-3 and his 7th (!) colo, and he still has 400 gas left; why not build an archives now? Soon after he's max, with gas banked, and he still doesn't start the Archives. He only starts it at 17'10. When 3-0-3 completes he does nothing. The whole point of his play is to aim at this timing, when Terran is still 2-2 with not enough Vikings to handle the Zealots/Stalkers/Colossi army. But Zest sits. He doesn't even try to pressure TaeJa's fourth, nor does he try to capitalize on his superior upgrades. His composition has a clear expiry date but he lets time pass. Meanwhile, TaeJa strenghthens his composition with more Ghosts/Vikings then attacks Zest's fourth before he has Storm (see the consequences of the late archives). Zest inexplicably Blinks all his Stalkers in front of TaeJa's bio despite his Zealots and Colossi not even being yet in the battle and gets rolled. Pigbaby's usage of the colo dual forge was considerably superior.
Yeh the whole archive thing confused me as well. I think tbh Zest easily had won that game if he had not forgotten it.
I think this was just Zest playing at his worst, rather than Taeja looking like the best terran in the world.
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First, let me say that Taeja is the man.
Second, Zest played badly, not just for him but for any top tier Protoss. In game one, Zest totally shut Taeja down and then he engaged Taeja's ghost heavy army without an observer. This is so staggeringly stupid (especially if you're playing Taeja) little needs to be said. (Do KESPA players literally not know anything about their opponents outside proleague at all? How do you not know to bring an observer with your army (rallied to a unit) in the late game against Terran.) In game 2 Taeja was dead and Zest had just unbelievable poor engagements as in the only way he could have lost the game was if you do what he did. The final engagement was so bad that if you're conspiracy theory minded you would think he was trying to throw the game. He went up a ramp (instead of just pulling his probes at the natural to match Taeja's scv pull and crushing Taeja's weak army) and then went down the ramp first with his stalkers. His Colossi were off to the side fighting single marauders and Vikings by themselves, while Taeja's main army was obliterating the stalkers that were trying to come down the ramp. In the third game Taeja held reasonably well, Zest did enough damage that he was about even with Taeja and then Zest incorrectly judged that a handful of unupgraded stalkers and zealots could beat a similar in supply group of stimmed marauders and marines with medivac support and then derped his mothership away. Needless to say, his decision making was laughably bad. I know that Apollo was hyping Zest hard and Zest's pvp is the best in the world but his tvp is not in the top 5.
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On July 19 2014 20:02 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2014 18:47 Tanzklaue wrote:
people are saying "well, taeja doesn't play against real high level koreans [Bullshit if you ask me], he has to prove himself against a Code S veteran."
Taeja crushes Zest 3-0 and makes it look easy. and of course people try to find new excuses now so they don't have to admit that some of the koreans outside of WCS Korea are just as good as the ones in it. Or people don't only look at the latest result... TaeJa 3-0 Zest ... and include some of the previous ones: TaeJa 0-3 Pigbaby TaeJa 0-2 First TaeJa 0-2 Jim
Pretty much this. Taeja is a great player but his tvp isn't otherworldly. I don't know what to say about his beating Zest other than that Zest appeared to have some sort of meltdown in each game and Taeja being the top flight talent that he is was able to capitalize.
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On July 19 2014 21:27 Radicalness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2014 20:35 TheDwf wrote:On July 19 2014 20:16 Radicalness wrote:On July 19 2014 20:02 TheDwf wrote:On July 19 2014 18:47 Tanzklaue wrote:
people are saying "well, taeja doesn't play against real high level koreans [Bullshit if you ask me], he has to prove himself against a Code S veteran."
Taeja crushes Zest 3-0 and makes it look easy. and of course people try to find new excuses now so they don't have to admit that some of the koreans outside of WCS Korea are just as good as the ones in it. Or people don't only look at the latest result... TaeJa 3-0 Zest ... and include some of the previous ones: TaeJa 0-3 Pigbaby TaeJa 0-2 First TaeJa 0-2 Jim Yes, let's include some previous results: TaeJa 26-0 over a span of winning HSC, Dreamhack and ro16 of WCS America. In the meantime, Zest failed to make the finals in a non-premier tournament, the SHOUTcraft Invitational. What kind of logic is that... Zest lost 3-4 in a close series to the eventual winner. With your reasoning HuK > Zest because top4 of a Premier Tournament with a tier3 line-up is better than third at a Major event with like 6 players being GSL playoffs material? What does Huk have to do with anything? Don't make fun of my reasoning when you guys are arguing Zest > TaeJa when TaeJa just swept Zest. I'm not trying to discredit Zest's accomplishments or Shoutcraft or anything. TaeJa isn't even one of my favorite players. I'm just saying TaeJa and Zest were arguably the only two players who could make claims for the best player in the world right now and TaeJa just beat him 3-0. In a month or two it could easily switch since so many more tournaments will be played over that time. Sure, it's close right now with no player really standing out extremely over another but I think it's dumb to discredit TaeJa just because he no longer plays in the GSL. His wins over Life and Zest show that.
But why are you putting Taeja as a contender to the best players in the world without including Maru, Innovation, Soo, Hero and lots of other players? What logic are you using to support your theory that Taeja is perhaps the best player in the world? Why not add Pigbaby or First as well - I mean they also just swept Taeja like Taeja swept Zest.
The difference between Maru and Taeja is that the former has a trackcored of consistent results against the very best players in the world, while the latter has a good trackrecord against players of worse quality.
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Taeja got that live lan experience and it showed.
I still think he can't win a gsl code s title tho ^_^
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Taeja 4-0'd MC, 3-0'd HerO, and now 3-0'd Zest who recently won two GSL events. Taeja picked up 2 Premier titles in 2 weeks
. . .
That's pretty impressive.
. . .
But he lost to Pigbaby! Vote Pigbaby for Toss Bonjwa 
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On July 19 2014 23:34 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2014 21:27 Radicalness wrote:On July 19 2014 20:35 TheDwf wrote:On July 19 2014 20:16 Radicalness wrote:On July 19 2014 20:02 TheDwf wrote:On July 19 2014 18:47 Tanzklaue wrote:
people are saying "well, taeja doesn't play against real high level koreans [Bullshit if you ask me], he has to prove himself against a Code S veteran."
Taeja crushes Zest 3-0 and makes it look easy. and of course people try to find new excuses now so they don't have to admit that some of the koreans outside of WCS Korea are just as good as the ones in it. Or people don't only look at the latest result... TaeJa 3-0 Zest ... and include some of the previous ones: TaeJa 0-3 Pigbaby TaeJa 0-2 First TaeJa 0-2 Jim Yes, let's include some previous results: TaeJa 26-0 over a span of winning HSC, Dreamhack and ro16 of WCS America. In the meantime, Zest failed to make the finals in a non-premier tournament, the SHOUTcraft Invitational. What kind of logic is that... Zest lost 3-4 in a close series to the eventual winner. With your reasoning HuK > Zest because top4 of a Premier Tournament with a tier3 line-up is better than third at a Major event with like 6 players being GSL playoffs material? What does Huk have to do with anything? Don't make fun of my reasoning when you guys are arguing Zest > TaeJa when TaeJa just swept Zest. I'm not trying to discredit Zest's accomplishments or Shoutcraft or anything. TaeJa isn't even one of my favorite players. I'm just saying TaeJa and Zest were arguably the only two players who could make claims for the best player in the world right now and TaeJa just beat him 3-0. In a month or two it could easily switch since so many more tournaments will be played over that time. Sure, it's close right now with no player really standing out extremely over another but I think it's dumb to discredit TaeJa just because he no longer plays in the GSL. His wins over Life and Zest show that. But why are you putting Taeja in amongst that claim? What logic are you using to support your theory that Taeja is perhaps the best player in the world? Why not add Pigbaby or First as well - I mean they also just swept Taeja like Taeja swept Zest. The difference between Maru and Taeja is that the former has a trackcored of consistent results against the very best players in the world, while the latter has a good trackrecord against players of worse quality.
I actually think that Taeja is by far the best player in the world in terms of pure skill... way ahead of Maru... and i think Taeja has incredible track record against the very best players in the world... or do you say that players playing in korea are the very best just because they play in korea, even tho they lose to "outsiders" all the time? Funny how those same "best of the best" lose to foreigners and koreans playing outside of korea in tournaments without 2 week preparation for every match...
Saying "zest was way bellow his usual level" as some said here... well duh, he just played one of the best, if not the best, player in the world without any preparation... and it showed a lot... he was doing silly things, not looking comfortable with builds and everything, getting flustered in situations... all around not being sure of himself... while Taeja was sure of his skill, control and his decisions were spot on even in very dire situations where everyone thought he is done for... doesnt that just prove that zest is maybe best player with preparation, but taeja better in pure skill randomly tossed in game and adapting on the spot?
Having builds prepared for 2 weeks ahead of the game for certain player and certain maps is pretty different to on the spot decisions you have to make outside of korean tournaments... what proves skill better? in my oppinion foreign tournaments are better gauge of pure skill... especially when top koreans go there and get smashed in straight up games, not getting cheesed... and majority of those top top korean players did play in one or more outside style tournaments, and they werent that otherwordly in them... if anyone was otherwordly in those tournaments, it was usually taeja
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Taeja is overrated. Taeja plays in the easy region, he couldn't compete in Korea. Taeja just farms foreign money. Taeja can't beat a Kespa elite, especially not in an offline bo5. Haters and doubters sit down son
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If only Americans get some sort of social facilitation at tournaments in NA... oh well go Jim vs JD finals !
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On July 20 2014 00:17 Salient wrote:
Taeja 4-0'd MC, 3-0'd HerO, and now 3-0'd Zest who recently won two GSL events. Taeja picked up 2 Premier titles in 2 weeks
As if MC was a reference for macro PvT...
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On July 20 2014 00:28 genai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2014 23:34 Hider wrote:On July 19 2014 21:27 Radicalness wrote:On July 19 2014 20:35 TheDwf wrote:On July 19 2014 20:16 Radicalness wrote:On July 19 2014 20:02 TheDwf wrote:On July 19 2014 18:47 Tanzklaue wrote:
people are saying "well, taeja doesn't play against real high level koreans [Bullshit if you ask me], he has to prove himself against a Code S veteran."
Taeja crushes Zest 3-0 and makes it look easy. and of course people try to find new excuses now so they don't have to admit that some of the koreans outside of WCS Korea are just as good as the ones in it. Or people don't only look at the latest result... TaeJa 3-0 Zest ... and include some of the previous ones: TaeJa 0-3 Pigbaby TaeJa 0-2 First TaeJa 0-2 Jim Yes, let's include some previous results: TaeJa 26-0 over a span of winning HSC, Dreamhack and ro16 of WCS America. In the meantime, Zest failed to make the finals in a non-premier tournament, the SHOUTcraft Invitational. What kind of logic is that... Zest lost 3-4 in a close series to the eventual winner. With your reasoning HuK > Zest because top4 of a Premier Tournament with a tier3 line-up is better than third at a Major event with like 6 players being GSL playoffs material? What does Huk have to do with anything? Don't make fun of my reasoning when you guys are arguing Zest > TaeJa when TaeJa just swept Zest. I'm not trying to discredit Zest's accomplishments or Shoutcraft or anything. TaeJa isn't even one of my favorite players. I'm just saying TaeJa and Zest were arguably the only two players who could make claims for the best player in the world right now and TaeJa just beat him 3-0. In a month or two it could easily switch since so many more tournaments will be played over that time. Sure, it's close right now with no player really standing out extremely over another but I think it's dumb to discredit TaeJa just because he no longer plays in the GSL. His wins over Life and Zest show that. But why are you putting Taeja in amongst that claim? What logic are you using to support your theory that Taeja is perhaps the best player in the world? Why not add Pigbaby or First as well - I mean they also just swept Taeja like Taeja swept Zest. The difference between Maru and Taeja is that the former has a trackcored of consistent results against the very best players in the world, while the latter has a good trackrecord against players of worse quality. I actually think that Taeja is by far the best player in the world in terms of pure skill... way ahead of Maru... and i think Taeja has incredible track record against the very best players in the world... or do you say that players playing in korea are the very best just because they play in korea, even tho they lose to "outsiders" all the time? Funny how those same "best of the best" lose to foreigners and koreans playing outside of korea in tournaments without 2 week preparation for every match... Saying "zest was way bellow his usual level" as some said here... well duh, he just played one of the best, if not the best, player in the world without any preparation... and it showed a lot... he was doing silly things, not looking comfortable with builds and everything, getting flustered in situations... all around not being sure of himself... while Taeja was sure of his skill, control and his decisions were spot on even in very dire situations where everyone thought he is done for... doesnt that just prove that zest is maybe best player with preparation, but taeja better in pure skill randomly tossed in game and adapting on the spot? Having builds prepared for 2 weeks ahead of the game for certain player and certain maps is pretty different to on the spot decisions you have to make outside of korean tournaments... what proves skill better? in my oppinion foreign tournaments are better gauge of pure skill... especially when top koreans go there and get smashed in straight up games, not getting cheesed... and majority of those top top korean players did play in one or more outside style tournaments, and they werent that otherwordly in them... if anyone was otherwordly in those tournaments, it was usually taeja
Totally agree with you. Sure, Taeja might not be the best player when it comes down to tournaments involve long time preparation for specific opponent, but he is probably the BEST player in those weekend tournaments no matter what his opponent is.
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On July 20 2014 00:30 swag_bro wrote:
If only Americans get some sort of social facilitation at tournaments in NA... oh well go Jim vs JD finals !
I would cream my pants if that happens
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tuned out after JD v Snute. amazing games, bummed that Snute is out  ... he was looking so good. last match was a real nail biter
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I am curious to see if Jaedong can kill Taeja this time - he almost had Taejas number at HSC IX. Cheering for Jaedong!
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That game 2 hold in the Taeja vs Zest series and that game 5 hold between Jaedong vs Snute...
I don't understand what happened
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EPT
