EPTGreatest Players of All Time: Part 3 - Page 8
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Die4Ever
United States17671 Posts
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On April 26 2015 03:53 YuiHirasawa wrote: Taeja #03 lol, If this article was made on the acer website maybe we'd have MMA on that position Polt #05 when all he did for 2 years was beating no name NA players and foreigners in international tourneys. Taeja above innovation, innovation #09, when he was so dominant for a set period of time that he was almost considered a bonjwa.. No inclusion of Stephano anywhere when he broke the game at least twice, in both wol and hots. Yeah, this ranking is biased at best. Only zerg players look at stephano with the reverence he deserves tbh | ||
stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On April 26 2015 04:10 bo1b wrote: Only zerg players look at stephano with the reverence he deserves tbh im a zerg player | ||
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swag_bro
Japan782 Posts
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Lgnarrow
104 Posts
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Eliv
Czech Republic32 Posts
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KadaverBB
Germany25657 Posts
On April 26 2015 04:11 swag_bro wrote: I am just happy that Stephano is not on this list. He doesn't deserve. Pft, that is definitely one of your weaker troll posts, not even banworthy. | ||
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aRyuujin
United States5049 Posts
On April 26 2015 03:50 Cheren wrote: Taeja vs Polt is a complete toss-up for better career imo, even closer when you consider that Polt has 11 premier finals appearances to Taeja's 13, and 3 major tournament finals to Taeja's 0. (2 Lone Star Clashes and a Red Bull event) And MC is top 3 to me since he was the only Protoss to have any real success before the immortal range buff in October 2011. (also the change in map design that nerfed 1/1/1) Similarly Mvp is #1 for more or less inventing macro Terran when everyone else was doing gimmicky all-ins. actually jinro should probably get a lot of credit for inventing macro terran! | ||
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Die4Ever
United States17671 Posts
On April 26 2015 04:11 swag_bro wrote: I am just happy that Stephano is not on this list. He doesn't deserve. swag_god has spoken Seriously though I don't even think Stephano is top 20, it's funny seeing people complain about Taeja being so high, and then complaining that Stephano isn't here. Considering Stephano's results is just like a way weaker version of Taeja over a shorter period of time. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
If you ever write a goat list for defining the way the games played I hope he's #1 | ||
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Cheren
United States2911 Posts
On April 26 2015 04:12 aRyuujin wrote: actually jinro should probably get a lot of credit for inventing macro terran! Absolutely, it was both Jinro and Mvp. | ||
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Gorlin
United States2753 Posts
On April 26 2015 03:19 stuchiu wrote: Ok Happy was a Top 5 TvT player, Mvp was Top 1 player. Jjakji was a top 10 T player by that point (he'd fallen off by that point), Life was maybe a top 20 Z (He didn't shoot up until months after this), aLive was a Top 5 T, Symbol was a Top 5 Z. Yoda was a Top 5 T, Creator was a Top 3 P, Sniper was Top 1 Player (This is when he won his GSL,), Bomber was Top 5 T (Playing at Top 3 T level). So MMA has: Top 5 TvT, Top 1, Top 10 T, Top 20 Z, Top 5 T, Top 5 Z. Polt had: Top 5 T, Top 3 P, Top 1, Top 5-3 T. Pretty close right? Then you include the relative increased skill over time (comparing GSL to IPL), include that this was at the prime of Bl/infestor era and then remember that Iron Squid was mostly played online and I felt it was even. I do not think your evaluation of the players at IPL 5 is accurate. Yoda was certainly not Top 5 T. Polt, Bomber, Ryung, Taeja, Inno, Mvp, and MKP were all certainly above him, and others like Keen, Supernova, Byun, ForGG, and Gumiho could all be argued above him as well, so he was top 10 at best. Sniper number 1? Winning the GSL doesn't just place you at number 1 (although it does certainly pad your resume by a ton), and I don't think that anyone you would ask at the time would say Sniper was better than Life, even with the GSL win. He was a top 3 zerg. You'll note that he won GSL at IPL 5 where he placed 5th, below two other zergs in Leenock and Violet so clearly he was not a head and shoulders number 1 player in the world. Bomber played well at that tournament to place 4th, but he was certainly not better than Ryung, Taeja, Inno, Mvp, and MKP and arguably others, not to mention that he wasn't even in Code S that season. So he was really top 10 T. One source for all of this is http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/news-archive/384595-power-rank-ipl5-edition But otherwise it was just checking the GSL liquipedia pages and aligulac and shit to confirm where players not in that ranking were. So Polt has: Top 10 T, Top 3 P, Top 3 Z, Top 10 T I agree with your Iron Squid evaluation. For GSL October, there is no mention of the other players MMA beat along the way. NaDa, Keen, asd, Clide. Clide beat the "second best TvT" player in the world Ryung (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/news-archive/271632-gsl-code-s-ro16-power-rank#three) to reach the quarters, so that's clearly worth something. He was already a top 10 Terran anyway, going off this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/news-archive/271632-gsl-code-s-ro16-power-rank where it also places NaDa just out of the top 10 players. Keen and asd were pretty meh though, top 20ish. So MMA has: Top 5 TvT, Top 1, Top 10 T, Top 20 Z, Top 5 T, Top 5 Z, Top 10 T, Top 10 T, Top 20 T, Top 20 T If you think I'm vehemently off with my player evaluations or if there is a reason for not considering those GSL players then tell me NaDa and Keen was group stage and asd just wasn't very good so I guess that could be a reason? Even so, it'd be left with. MMA: Top 5 TvT, Top 1, Top 10 T, Top 20 Z, Top 5 T, Top 5 Z, Top 10 T Then if we look at Polt's WCS 2015 as well, we can add in: Jim, Kelazhur, Firecake, Firecake, loss to Hydra, ForGG, Bunny, Hydra What do we get out of that? Bunny is Top 20 T, maybe higher? Jim, Kelazhur, and Firecake are not really high enough to be rank anything. ForGG is Top 5 TvT I suppose, I would need convincing to go higher than that despite what Aligulac thinks. Then there is Hydra who is a little hard for me to evaluate right now, but no higher than Top 5 Z. So this gives us for Polt Polt: Top 10 T, Top 3 P, Top 3 Z, Top 10 T, Top 20 T, Top 5 TvT, Top 5 Z against MMA: Top 5 TvT, Top 1, Top 10 T, Top 20 Z, Top 5 T, Top 5 Z, Top 10 T Those do look close to me. Throw in team league records, which you didn't address before, and once again, I think MMA pulls ahead of Polt. edit: oops, didn't see your other comment about team leagues, adding a response now | ||
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YuiHirasawa
Japan220 Posts
On April 26 2015 04:14 Die4Ever wrote: swag_god has spoken Seriously though I don't even think Stephano is top 20, it's funny seeing people complain about Taeja being so high, and then complaining that Stephano isn't here. Considering Stephano's results is just like a way weaker version of Taeja over a shorter period of time. Nah. Stephano didn't have the mechanics, the correct mindset but above all the right nationality to be on this list. Teamliquid posters wish they were koreans so of course they will worship korean players. But I just want to point out how Stephano was Jaedong's favorite player, and how the Korean world was so excited to see him play in Korea. Again I agree that Stephano didn't have the right mindset to deserve to be on that list, but he had more brain than all the top 5 players combined. Taeja may be good at splitting marines but he didn't redefined the meta of the game to the point of provoking successive nerfs. MVP did, Stephano did, and Life is still competitive despite playing the Zerg race at its weakest since the release. Taeja is just AI at faceless korean difficulty. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7295 Posts
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
Yes on 1, no on 1. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 26 2015 04:16 bo1b wrote: If you ever write a goat list for defining the way the games played I hope he's #1 nestea though | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
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Gorlin
United States2753 Posts
On April 26 2015 03:22 stuchiu wrote: Oh I didn't include team leagues because I felt I couldn't discern things like impact a player had on their team, relative strengths of the teams they beat, coaches/organizational influence and then I'd have to list every single player they beat and then rank every player (many of whom had no history at all). If you did include team leagues, that could boost MMA, but since I didn't include it for any other player on the list, it would be objectively wrong to include it here just to boost MMA up. While I understand where you are coming from, I do think its incorrect to disregard it entirely when considering a list of the greatest players, not just the best individual league players. That's a good point that it would be unfair to include it only for MMA, but what other players on this list would be substantially impacted by it? There's DRG, who I don't think you would have bumped above Maru anyway. Then there's Innovation against Zest. Maybe that would have changed your relative ranking between them? It doesn't really seem like it though. There's Taeja, but he got 3rd anyway (which I agree with) and his team league performance wouldn't be enough to get him into the top 2 regardless. But for MMA and Polt, who you said was "by far, the most difficult decision to make in the entire list", the impact of team league results is clearly more meaningful in ranking the two. | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On April 26 2015 04:23 YuiHirasawa wrote: Nah. Stephano didn't have the mechanic, the correct mindset but above all the right nationality to be on this list. Teamliquid posters wish they were koreans so of course they will worship korean players. But I just want to point out how Stephano was Jaedong's favorite player, and how the Korean world was so excited to see him play in Korea. Again I agree that Stephano didn't have the right mindset to deserve to be on that list, but he had more brain than all the top 5 players combined. Taeja may be good at splitting marines but he didn't redefined the meta of the game to the point of provoking successive nerfs. MVP did, Stephano did, and Life is still competitive despite playing the Zerg race at its weakest since the release. Taeja is just AI at faceless korean difficulty. That's Innovation you're thinking of. Taeja wins most of the time because he thinks well ingame in terms of army movement/positioning/army composition/decision making. | ||
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