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On April 20 2015 07:18 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 06:37 KingAlphard wrote:On April 20 2015 01:12 korona wrote:On April 20 2015 00:50 Sworn wrote:On April 20 2015 00:36 korona wrote:On April 19 2015 23:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2015 22:41 korona wrote:
But can you provide profile links for the players you mentioned?
http://nios.kr/sc2/eu/1v1/hots/diamond/the best ratios are just ludicrous ^^. I guess they'll make the jump directly to GM tomorrow. Problem is that we don't know how low those accounts started. They may have tanked their MMR at start as they still have quite plenty of loses. And after some 25 to 35 games the change rate slows down. And then it is slow to go over league ranges. The ones at the top with 75%+ winrates have absolutely no way of having tanked their MMR with those ratios this early and they have 50+ games played which should be more than enough to send someone to masters. ForGG and other pros being stuck in diamond almost a week later shouldn't be happening imo 50 wins more than loses is not enough to get someone in masters if the change rate has stabilized and MMR was low when stabilization had happened. If they are using summer 2013 offsets then it takes some 20 wins per league (did not check old numbers). Of course in-game match history could tell more (e.g. did most of their loses come at start and then only win streak). Edit: Hmm. Snute had started 18-11 (5-0 placements).. His 25th was lost... and first subsequent win was 29th match. Did not check opponent leagues thought. And now he is at 46-22. so 28-11 --> + 17 after that (about 1 league wide if they are using summer 2013 offsets, last season it usually required more than 40 wins more than loses to cross diamond). Should check some of his opponents. But then again if he was one of the first who played, he may have got quite low starting MMR after 5-0 placements. And if the loses were against people with low MMR then it very well be possible that he was low when his change rate stabilized (e.g. plat range) The thing is their MMRs aren't low. I looked at the match history of some of those "fake" diamond players and they mostly play between each other, but they get less points for winning against master league players. In fact, I think it's obvious that if you have >500 points in diamond after 4 days of ladder, you don't belong there. By the way, if you can't get 2 promotions at once, they probably can't even get to GM right? Unless blizzard fixes it before that. GM is an invite league so it operates a little differently. It takes whoever the top 200 MMR people regardless of their current league. Back in the TW region a few years ago there weren't even 200 Master players to put into GM so it used some Diamonds.
Thought based on Sea server there are nowadays some other hidden requirements as otherwise the Sea GM would have more players. Could e.g. be a manually set minimum MMR that is required to reach gm?
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United States12237 Posts
On April 20 2015 12:49 korona wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 07:18 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 20 2015 06:37 KingAlphard wrote:On April 20 2015 01:12 korona wrote:On April 20 2015 00:50 Sworn wrote:On April 20 2015 00:36 korona wrote:On April 19 2015 23:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2015 22:41 korona wrote:
But can you provide profile links for the players you mentioned?
http://nios.kr/sc2/eu/1v1/hots/diamond/the best ratios are just ludicrous ^^. I guess they'll make the jump directly to GM tomorrow. Problem is that we don't know how low those accounts started. They may have tanked their MMR at start as they still have quite plenty of loses. And after some 25 to 35 games the change rate slows down. And then it is slow to go over league ranges. The ones at the top with 75%+ winrates have absolutely no way of having tanked their MMR with those ratios this early and they have 50+ games played which should be more than enough to send someone to masters. ForGG and other pros being stuck in diamond almost a week later shouldn't be happening imo 50 wins more than loses is not enough to get someone in masters if the change rate has stabilized and MMR was low when stabilization had happened. If they are using summer 2013 offsets then it takes some 20 wins per league (did not check old numbers). Of course in-game match history could tell more (e.g. did most of their loses come at start and then only win streak). Edit: Hmm. Snute had started 18-11 (5-0 placements).. His 25th was lost... and first subsequent win was 29th match. Did not check opponent leagues thought. And now he is at 46-22. so 28-11 --> + 17 after that (about 1 league wide if they are using summer 2013 offsets, last season it usually required more than 40 wins more than loses to cross diamond). Should check some of his opponents. But then again if he was one of the first who played, he may have got quite low starting MMR after 5-0 placements. And if the loses were against people with low MMR then it very well be possible that he was low when his change rate stabilized (e.g. plat range) The thing is their MMRs aren't low. I looked at the match history of some of those "fake" diamond players and they mostly play between each other, but they get less points for winning against master league players. In fact, I think it's obvious that if you have >500 points in diamond after 4 days of ladder, you don't belong there. By the way, if you can't get 2 promotions at once, they probably can't even get to GM right? Unless blizzard fixes it before that. GM is an invite league so it operates a little differently. It takes whoever the top 200 MMR people regardless of their current league. Back in the TW region a few years ago there weren't even 200 Master players to put into GM so it used some Diamonds. Thought based on Sea server there are nowadays some other hidden requirements as otherwise the Sea GM would have more players. Could e.g. be a manually set minimum MMR that is required to reach gm?
Well the top 200 spaces are "reserved" via being higher than the 200th player's MMR. So if I'm #200 and my MMR is 2000, then that becomes the GM entry point, first come, first served. If I never play and win my game, or someone else surpasses my MMR and GM fills up before I can play, I won't get in. TW didn't have enough Masters period so that made the GM entry barrier relatively low, in the Diamond zone. SEA should have enough Masters, but if they never play to take their spots, those spots will go unfilled until someone does.
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United States12237 Posts
You know, I was just thinking... and this is just a passing thought, not really a theory. What if when the season roll happened, they never actually turned off GM league, but they still froze promotions into it until it unlocks? So Snute and ForGG and all these other obviously-GM players could actually technically be in GM league, and the system thinks they're in GM league, so they never get out of Diamond until GM officially unlocks. Obviously it should never ever work like this, but there are a lot of things this season that are turning out to be odd.
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On April 20 2015 14:35 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 12:49 korona wrote:On April 20 2015 07:18 Excalibur_Z wrote:On April 20 2015 06:37 KingAlphard wrote:On April 20 2015 01:12 korona wrote:On April 20 2015 00:50 Sworn wrote:On April 20 2015 00:36 korona wrote:On April 19 2015 23:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 19 2015 22:41 korona wrote:
But can you provide profile links for the players you mentioned?
http://nios.kr/sc2/eu/1v1/hots/diamond/the best ratios are just ludicrous ^^. I guess they'll make the jump directly to GM tomorrow. Problem is that we don't know how low those accounts started. They may have tanked their MMR at start as they still have quite plenty of loses. And after some 25 to 35 games the change rate slows down. And then it is slow to go over league ranges. The ones at the top with 75%+ winrates have absolutely no way of having tanked their MMR with those ratios this early and they have 50+ games played which should be more than enough to send someone to masters. ForGG and other pros being stuck in diamond almost a week later shouldn't be happening imo 50 wins more than loses is not enough to get someone in masters if the change rate has stabilized and MMR was low when stabilization had happened. If they are using summer 2013 offsets then it takes some 20 wins per league (did not check old numbers). Of course in-game match history could tell more (e.g. did most of their loses come at start and then only win streak). Edit: Hmm. Snute had started 18-11 (5-0 placements).. His 25th was lost... and first subsequent win was 29th match. Did not check opponent leagues thought. And now he is at 46-22. so 28-11 --> + 17 after that (about 1 league wide if they are using summer 2013 offsets, last season it usually required more than 40 wins more than loses to cross diamond). Should check some of his opponents. But then again if he was one of the first who played, he may have got quite low starting MMR after 5-0 placements. And if the loses were against people with low MMR then it very well be possible that he was low when his change rate stabilized (e.g. plat range) The thing is their MMRs aren't low. I looked at the match history of some of those "fake" diamond players and they mostly play between each other, but they get less points for winning against master league players. In fact, I think it's obvious that if you have >500 points in diamond after 4 days of ladder, you don't belong there. By the way, if you can't get 2 promotions at once, they probably can't even get to GM right? Unless blizzard fixes it before that. GM is an invite league so it operates a little differently. It takes whoever the top 200 MMR people regardless of their current league. Back in the TW region a few years ago there weren't even 200 Master players to put into GM so it used some Diamonds. Thought based on Sea server there are nowadays some other hidden requirements as otherwise the Sea GM would have more players. Could e.g. be a manually set minimum MMR that is required to reach gm? Well the top 200 spaces are "reserved" via being higher than the 200th player's MMR. So if I'm #200 and my MMR is 2000, then that becomes the GM entry point, first come, first served. If I never play and win my game, or someone else surpasses my MMR and GM fills up before I can play, I won't get in. TW didn't have enough Masters period so that made the GM entry barrier relatively low, in the Diamond zone. SEA should have enough Masters, but if they never play to take their spots, those spots will go unfilled until someone does.
Most seasons SEA server has only some tens of master league players when GM opens. Thus the entry point of 200 active players who have the highest MMRs would end up being lower than master MMR. Also many of the master + diamond players likely would not satisfy the GM activity rule (90 bonus pool for entry, 180 to be kicked out of gm). If looking at the nios.kr figures from last season one could expect that the entry point would be somewhere at the bottom of diamond range. But still only tens of players are placed to GM. I find it strange that so considerable portion of the eligible players would not reclaim their GM spot (do so considerable portion of them go inactive just before GM opens). Thus I speculate that there is some hidden minimum rule nowadays (that rule was not there couple of years ago. I remember the TW numbers too).
Below you can find nios.kr numbers for 72 first hours after GM opened at SEA from last season:
+ Show Spoiler +2014-07-13 18:00:30 CET, 2246 players, gm 0.00% (0), master 1.65% (37), diamond 8.99% (202), platinum 16.74% (376), gold 32.77% (736), silver 28.23% (634), bronze 11.62% (261)
2014-07-14 17:57:43 CET, 2410 players, gm 1.37% (33), master 0.83% (20), diamond 8.59% (207), platinum 16.47% (397), gold 32.90% (793), silver 28.92% (697), bronze 10.91% (263)
2014-07-15 17:55:20 CET, 2532 players, gm 1.46% (37), master 0.71% (18), diamond 8.49% (215), platinum 16.43% (416), gold 33.33% (844), silver 28.99% (734), bronze 10.58% (268)
2014-07-16 17:50:22 CET, 2651 players, gm 1.43% (38), master ,0.72% (19), diamond 8.37% (222), platinum 16.71% (443), gold 33.12% (878), silver 29.12% (772), bronze 10.52% (279)
On April 20 2015 14:57 Excalibur_Z wrote:
You know, I was just thinking... and this is just a passing thought, not really a theory. What if when the season roll happened, they never actually turned off GM league, but they still froze promotions into it until it unlocks? So Snute and ForGG and all these other obviously-GM players could actually technically be in GM league, and the system thinks they're in GM league, so they never get out of Diamond until GM officially unlocks. Obviously it should never ever work like this, but there are a lot of things this season that are turning out to be odd.
It will be interesting to wait and see if one of those accounts jumps directly from diamond to gm when gm opens. Will be interesting to see did they just have bad luck regarding their early game opponents that caused their MMR to be fairly low when their change rate stabilized or is there some problems with the system.
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On April 20 2015 17:12 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 14:57 Excalibur_Z wrote:
You know, I was just thinking... and this is just a passing thought, not really a theory. What if when the season roll happened, they never actually turned off GM league, but they still froze promotions into it until it unlocks? So Snute and ForGG and all these other obviously-GM players could actually technically be in GM league, and the system thinks they're in GM league, so they never get out of Diamond until GM officially unlocks. Obviously it should never ever work like this, but there are a lot of things this season that are turning out to be odd. Well.... something like this might happen if the system can't keep up with MMR changes as I once tested.. Top 16 League Drop + Show Spoiler +1 Game After Drop + Show Spoiler +4 Losses later + Show Spoiler +Near 1,000 BP and no wins and back in GM, wut LOL
I presume this happened during the ladder lock period? Couple of seasons ago I noticed that the bonus pool entry requirement seems not to apply during the ladder lock period. There was one top 16 gm player back then (who had been full season in top) who used 'leave league' during the ladder lock and was then placed back (I presumed it was directly after placement, but could have been 1 match after). Thus I guess the GM entry activity rule does not apply during ladder lock period --> If there is space on GM and your MMR is high enough you will get back via leaving the league and playing the placement match.
Hmm. If I remember his nick correctly it was also a barcode. Wonder if I spotted you back then 
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On April 20 2015 14:57 Excalibur_Z wrote:
You know, I was just thinking... and this is just a passing thought, not really a theory. What if when the season roll happened, they never actually turned off GM league, but they still froze promotions into it until it unlocks? So Snute and ForGG and all these other obviously-GM players could actually technically be in GM league, and the system thinks they're in GM league, so they never get out of Diamond until GM officially unlocks. Obviously it should never ever work like this, but there are a lot of things this season that are turning out to be odd.
But this didn't affect all players that were GM last season, only the top 50 or something. Unless it affected those that had top 200 MMR rather than GM players, then it might be possible because of those master league smurfs with higher MMR than most GMs.
EDIT: There's a player named Guru on EU who didn't finish GM last season, but he had an extremely high MMR, around top 50 (he likes to leave league continuously) , and he is stuck in diamond with 800 points this season. So that might confirm what I stated above.
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On April 15 2015 18:48 korona wrote:
(if you win that match as promotions only happen won games).
Source? I'm fairly sure I've been promoted after losses.
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I have the opposite problem most people seem to suffer in this thread. Well, "problem".
I came back from an almost year long hiatus from Starcraft, and I was pretty scrappy back when I quit. Platinum back then. So I get back, and place into silver. That's probably about where I'd expect to end up. 5 games later, I was gold. 10 later, I was platinum. 10 games later, and I'm top ranked in diamond league. This is not intended to be a humblebrag: I do not play at a diamond level. I've been diamond a few times before, and it took a lot more effort than what I've put into this comeback. Platinum is maybe plausible, Gold much more likely. Fuck, I'm doing half my builds from nearly year old memory, so I'm fairly sure to be botching them like crazy.
I've got about 60-70% win rate, and while some wins have been drops and dumb luck, most of the players I'm facing honestly aren't that experienced.
I don't even know what's going on. The only factor I can imagine as a cause is that I usually play at off hours (4-7 AM). So the pool of players I'm matched against is disproportionately likely to be high, drunk, tired, or otherwise impaired.
Still, feels like I'm being pranked by Blizzard.
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I was platinum for many seasons and after 5 matches played, 2 won 3 lost, i got placed in silver.Based on that i would say MMR was reset.
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United States12237 Posts
On April 21 2015 21:09 Liman wrote:
I was platinum for many seasons and after 5 matches played, 2 won 3 lost, i got placed in silver.Based on that i would say MMR was reset.
Not conclusive evidence at all. The combination of increased volatility and conservative league placement easily explains that. Your MMR falls a little bit via losing more than winning, maybe down to Gold, then safe estimate is to put you in Silver.
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Snute, Verdi and other high level players stuck in diamond have been promoted to GM. So it looks like the problem is being solved by itself.
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Canada11355 Posts
I don't know about you guys but I'm honestly just excited to read "I got into masters back when it was actually hard" once everything settles down
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United States12237 Posts
On April 22 2015 09:16 KingAlphard wrote:
Snute, Verdi and other high level players stuck in diamond have been promoted to GM. So it looks like the problem is being solved by itself.
They fixed it =)
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I haven't played much last season. Now that exams are done, I can dedicate a lot more time to video games. Went 4-1 during my placement matches and I got placed in Platinum.
Now if only I can practice my off race and not lose my current ranking or MMR...
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On April 22 2015 12:54 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 09:16 KingAlphard wrote:
Snute, Verdi and other high level players stuck in diamond have been promoted to GM. So it looks like the problem is being solved by itself. They fixed it =)
Or maybe not? ForGG is still diamond even though he has won several games after GM opened.
I don't think we can question that his MMR is high enough.
edit:
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Actually, I've found that if you leave league this season, you will need to do your 5 placement matches over again. So I wouldn't be surprised if people use that to quickly boost their accounts.
Like spam a whole bunch of games, get higher ranking in your league, don't mind w/l ratio and then leave league with your new higher MMR and basically a clean w/l ratio slate.
And because it was indeed a hard ladder reset, you can do this over and over for the whole season.
Haha, considering doing that. I got the idea after seeing one of my in-game friends leave league over and over again. Already playing almost 500 games since season start. O_O
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I've played vs 2 Protosses so far this season. That's always been my best MU. Also a bunch of Zergs, which is fine and no problem. And then a bunch of plat-diamond Terrans as the majority of opponents, in my absolute worst MU, and only 2 of 15 didn't play mech. The ladder is currently bullying me and I can't be bothered playing if it's not fun (because where's the point when it's not fun?).
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On April 22 2015 18:15 `dunedain wrote:
Actually, I've found that if you leave league this season, you will need to do your 5 placement matches over again. So I wouldn't be surprised if people use that to quickly boost their accounts.
Like spam a whole bunch of games, get higher ranking in your league, don't mind w/l ratio and then leave league with your new higher MMR and basically a clean w/l ratio slate.
And because it was indeed a hard ladder reset, you can do this over and over for the whole season.
Haha, considering doing that. I got the idea after seeing one of my in-game friends leave league over and over again. Already playing almost 500 games since season start. O_O
When HotS was launched 2 years ago there were reports that people who left league had to do 5 placements again. Exact rule when this happened remained unknown. But it was speculated that the rule was something to do amount of games played after blank start (before MMR change rate has stabilized). Do you have more information how many games have they played between their 5 placements and leaving league?
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On April 23 2015 03:10 korona wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 18:15 `dunedain wrote:
Actually, I've found that if you leave league this season, you will need to do your 5 placement matches over again. So I wouldn't be surprised if people use that to quickly boost their accounts.
Like spam a whole bunch of games, get higher ranking in your league, don't mind w/l ratio and then leave league with your new higher MMR and basically a clean w/l ratio slate.
And because it was indeed a hard ladder reset, you can do this over and over for the whole season.
Haha, considering doing that. I got the idea after seeing one of my in-game friends leave league over and over again. Already playing almost 500 games since season start. O_O When HotS was launched 2 years ago there were reports that people who left league had to do 5 placements again. Exact rule when this happened remained unknown. But it was speculated that the rule was something to do amount of games played after blank start (before MMR change rate has stabilized). Do you have more information how many games have they played between their 5 placements and leaving league?
I guess the reset is hard coded to the season, so that means anyone that does their placement on NA or EU this season will have to do 5 placement matches everytime. The thing is, the MMR stabilizes at the last point before leaving league.
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On April 23 2015 03:10 korona wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 18:15 `dunedain wrote:
Actually, I've found that if you leave league this season, you will need to do your 5 placement matches over again. So I wouldn't be surprised if people use that to quickly boost their accounts.
Like spam a whole bunch of games, get higher ranking in your league, don't mind w/l ratio and then leave league with your new higher MMR and basically a clean w/l ratio slate.
And because it was indeed a hard ladder reset, you can do this over and over for the whole season.
Haha, considering doing that. I got the idea after seeing one of my in-game friends leave league over and over again. Already playing almost 500 games since season start. O_O When HotS was launched 2 years ago there were reports that people who left league had to do 5 placements again. Exact rule when this happened remained unknown. But it was speculated that the rule was something to do amount of games played after blank start (before MMR change rate has stabilized). Do you have more information how many games have they played between their 5 placements and leaving league?
I was testing that a while ago. I believe the conclusion what that however many placement matches (1 or 5) you had to do at the start you would have to re-do after leaving league. On accounts where I had a single placement match, I continued to have one placement match no matter how often I left. Where I had five placement matches it continued every time I left. (My MMR did not reset though - I was able to get one of my accounts into diamond doing this after the season lock.)
I do think this was at the very end of WoL as I had multiple accounts then, quite possible things have changed since.
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