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Constructive criticism is welcome, but no mindless SC2/Developer bashing in this thread. |
On January 24 2014 06:33 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 06:22 Squat wrote:
Roach timings relied on a tanky unit that could just bludgeon its way through. Hydras cannot do that. Some basic defense and decent AOE will wipe them out just as quickly as right now. Hydra/ling is surprisingly ineffective against a basic gateway army with good forcefields. Ok first of all, yes about the roach, but god no about hydraling... it destroys gateway hahaha Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 06:27 Musicus wrote:On January 24 2014 06:23 DinoMight wrote:On January 24 2014 06:22 Squat wrote:
Roach timings relied on a tanky unit that could just bludgeon its way through. Hydras cannot do that. Some basic defense and decent AOE will wipe them out just as quickly as right now. Hydra/ling is surprisingly ineffective against a basic gateway army with good forcefields. And when there are literally twice as many Hydras? Didn't see that patch note that gives zergs double the minerals and larva. It will "just" give zergs more gas for upgrades and tech switches, not really have a huge impact on the hydra numbers. Gas is the zerg bottle neck... more gas = more everything
Yes but not double, especially not for timing attacks or all ins, because then you also use all larvas and minerals.
Edit: What I think is, the acutal strength will be that a hydra/ling all in may no longer be all in. You won't suddenly have double the amout of hydras, but you will have enough gas to continue upgrading behind, tech to hive or do an even more devestating muta switch. That might be OP but not the number of hydras.
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This could potentially have huge consequences for the TvP matchup. It will make the pre storm timing with Ghosts much more powerful and quick. Protoss may have the completely alter their tech path to avoid being beaten by this timing every game. I'm still not happy with the design of the matchup however.
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On January 24 2014 06:37 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 06:33 ffadicted wrote:On January 24 2014 06:22 Squat wrote:
Roach timings relied on a tanky unit that could just bludgeon its way through. Hydras cannot do that. Some basic defense and decent AOE will wipe them out just as quickly as right now. Hydra/ling is surprisingly ineffective against a basic gateway army with good forcefields. Ok first of all, yes about the roach, but god no about hydraling... it destroys gateway hahaha On January 24 2014 06:27 Musicus wrote:On January 24 2014 06:23 DinoMight wrote:On January 24 2014 06:22 Squat wrote:
Roach timings relied on a tanky unit that could just bludgeon its way through. Hydras cannot do that. Some basic defense and decent AOE will wipe them out just as quickly as right now. Hydra/ling is surprisingly ineffective against a basic gateway army with good forcefields. And when there are literally twice as many Hydras? Didn't see that patch note that gives zergs double the minerals and larva. It will "just" give zergs more gas for upgrades and tech switches, not really have a huge impact on the hydra numbers. Gas is the zerg bottle neck... more gas = more everything Yes but not double, especially not for timing attacks or all ins, because then you also use all larvas and minerals.
yeah. no one is denying this would open up hydra play a LOT, but i think toss players should be forced to try scouting + defending hydra timings and see how the strategy shakes out before complaining that zerg will finally have an aggro option.
one thing i also like is that in theory this really buffs macro roach/hydra/infestor play because 150g for infestors won't be as crippling in the midgame
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The hydra change isn't ever gonna make live, calm down. The thing which could have a much larger impact than anticipated imo is the tempest building damage buff...
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I think making the MSC a "low flying" unit might be a good change, so that it can still get up to high ground, but not give vision while being on low ground. That should be a nerf to blink stalker builds, but not make them completely unviable.
As is, the MSC change won't really affect the problems all too much. Even though Blizzard does acknowledge that MSC is an issue in TvP.
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I still don't get why the Ghost energy thing should help mech in particular.
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On January 24 2014 06:35 manniefresh wrote:I find the Tempest buff really appealing, mainly because of the new dynamic it will bring to the game. Changes that bring about new and unique strats are always a win IMHO. But like everyone else, I agree that the hydra buff will break PvZ/ force every game into 2 base colossus 
I think it could be cool with oracles for vision. A slow, siege like counter push while the Protoss also does warp prison harass and other flying units. It could be fun as long as the Protoss doesn't need to get to many tempest.
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I don't understand these Zerg players saying that the Hydra buff will do nothing ZvP. I don't.
Less gas required = less drones required to mine gas = more drones to mine minerals. So you can hit much earlier timings.
It's like saying if they made Stalkers 25 gas it wouldn't make Blink Allins better. OF COURSE IT WOULD. Because you could mine less gas and more minerals and hit earlier with more stuff.
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Serioulsy Blizzard, what are you doing ? We all know you're putting your effort into Heroes of the Storm but come on ... Hydra Buff ? Tempest Buff ? ...
With changes like this, PvZ will still be boring as always. Swarm hosts could be a better unit just by making them faster but reduce Health of the locusts, making them less static. This could be a way to make PvZ less Boring ... but right now come on ... wait 25min 'til Protoss can get SuperTempest into the game ?
Anyway ... I think they're going into the wrong path but it's just my opinion ...
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On January 24 2014 06:42 Paragleiber wrote:
I still don't get why the Ghost energy thing should help mech in particular.
Because Immortals counter tanks and Ghosts can EMP Immortals so they die really fast.
But it will also help bio, if thats what you mean (not ONLY mech).
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On January 24 2014 06:44 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 06:42 Paragleiber wrote:
I still don't get why the Ghost energy thing should help mech in particular. Because Immortals counter tanks and Ghosts can EMP Immortals so they die really fast. But it will also help bio, if thats what you mean (not ONLY mech).
Without harden shield, tanks rip through immortals at an alarming rate. It funny how hard both unit hit the other if they are just slamming into HP.
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On January 24 2014 06:43 DinoMight wrote:
I don't understand these Zerg players saying that the Hydra buff will do nothing ZvP. I don't.
Less gas required = less drones required to mine gas = more drones to mine minerals. So you can hit much earlier timings.
It's like saying if they made Stalkers 25 gas it wouldn't make Blink Allins better. OF COURSE IT WOULD. Because you could mine less gas and more minerals and hit earlier with more stuff.
Of course they will be better, and transitioning and teching and upgrading will all be easier. I think it might be OP. But you said, it would result in literally double the amount of hydras and that's literally not true.
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I think that the Hydra buff has some real potential to spice up midgame ZvP and maybe even lead to a more interesting lategame, but it needs to be accompanied with a nerf to Hydra upgrades (preferably longer research of speed), because otherwise it will get very silly. Mass (and I mean mass) ling/hydra (or roach/hydra) into muta? I mean, it's probably defendable, but it would require a massive investment from the Protoss, completely screwing his lategame. It could be even more broken that BL/winfestor, and I say this as a Zerg player...
Tempest buff is IMO a derpy way to fix the lategame, but I think it's hopeless because Blizzard insists on making boring, unmicroable capital ships the only lategame option for the Protoss, and that's the root of the problem. Maybe increasing Tempest speed while reducing its HP would be better. Ideally there would be a way to harass the SHs somehow, but that probably needs to wait until LotV.
Also, PO nerf is sooo cosmetic.
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On January 24 2014 06:44 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 06:42 Paragleiber wrote:
I still don't get why the Ghost energy thing should help mech in particular. Because Immortals counter tanks and Ghosts can EMP Immortals so they die really fast. But it will also help bio, if thats what you mean (not ONLY mech).
Yeah but does that change actually makes ghosts easier to obtain when going mech?
I never tried mech in TvP so I don't know...
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United States7483 Posts
On January 24 2014 06:22 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 06:16 Whitewing wrote:On January 24 2014 06:12 Squat wrote:On January 24 2014 06:10 Plansix wrote:On January 24 2014 06:08 Squat wrote:On January 24 2014 06:03 ZeromuS wrote:
Remember roach max?
Roaches 75/25
Hydras 100/25
Incoming 12 minute hydra max You should hope that someone is stupid enough to actually do that. A max of slow hydras with no upgrades might be the worst max in the game. And storm openings would be amazing. Get 1 colossus and kite them all over the map. The roach timings got speed, the hydra timings will too. I'd be way more scared of hydra/ling all-ins than I would be of roach all-ins. On January 24 2014 06:12 ffadicted wrote:On January 24 2014 06:10 Plansix wrote:On January 24 2014 06:08 Squat wrote:On January 24 2014 06:03 ZeromuS wrote:
Remember roach max?
Roaches 75/25
Hydras 100/25
Incoming 12 minute hydra max You should hope that someone is stupid enough to actually do that. A max of slow hydras with no upgrades might be the worst max in the game. And storm openings would be amazing. I'll take a colossus sentry army to deal with a hydra bust over storm opening any day lol Can't really, then you get hit by the muta switch since those hydras were 25 gas a pop. Roach timings relied on a tanky unit that could just bludgeon its way through. Hydras cannot do that. Some basic defense and decent AOE will wipe them out just as quickly as right now. Hydra/ling is surprisingly ineffective against a basic gateway army with good forcefields. The muta switch is a possible scenario, but the amount of production and resources needed to max on hydra/ling and then switch to mutas is huge. You'll never see this in a stage of the game where hydras are still dangerous.
You dealt with roach max builds with immortal/sentry: roaches have short range so FF hinders them a lot, and immortals are reasonably inexpensive all things considered (at least compared to every AoE unit) and kill roaches extremely well. Colossi are expensive and require more tech: they're slower to get out and you'll have fewer units. No, you won't just kill it with AoE, and forcefields hinder hydras less than roaches because they have range. And you can't commit to super hard robo builds to counter the hydras because then you outright die to mutalisks. This will kill SG openings.
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For the love of god, I do not want that Ghost buff to go through.
Cool with Protoss nerfs.
Cool with Hydra buffs.
GHOSTS ARE BIO, please don't try and buff Mech through a biological unit. Blizzard, me, and every other person on this forum know that buffing a bio unit to buff mech is really only buffing bio.
Tank buffs. Thor buffs. Start there please... please?
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On January 24 2014 06:47 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 06:44 DinoMight wrote:On January 24 2014 06:42 Paragleiber wrote:
I still don't get why the Ghost energy thing should help mech in particular. Because Immortals counter tanks and Ghosts can EMP Immortals so they die really fast. But it will also help bio, if thats what you mean (not ONLY mech). Yeah but does that change actually makes ghosts easier to obtain when going mech? I never tried mech in TvP so I don't know...
It makes them cheaper and faster to get initially, yes... over time, obviously the benefit won't scale
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yes it will be easier to obtain because you dont have to get the upgrade and you can produce ghosts earlier... I think it would be very helpful.
My guess is that it just gives some stepping ground for mech as the above poster is probably right.
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On January 24 2014 06:49 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 06:22 Squat wrote:On January 24 2014 06:16 Whitewing wrote:On January 24 2014 06:12 Squat wrote:On January 24 2014 06:10 Plansix wrote:On January 24 2014 06:08 Squat wrote:On January 24 2014 06:03 ZeromuS wrote:
Remember roach max?
Roaches 75/25
Hydras 100/25
Incoming 12 minute hydra max You should hope that someone is stupid enough to actually do that. A max of slow hydras with no upgrades might be the worst max in the game. And storm openings would be amazing. Get 1 colossus and kite them all over the map. The roach timings got speed, the hydra timings will too. I'd be way more scared of hydra/ling all-ins than I would be of roach all-ins. On January 24 2014 06:12 ffadicted wrote:On January 24 2014 06:10 Plansix wrote:On January 24 2014 06:08 Squat wrote:On January 24 2014 06:03 ZeromuS wrote:
Remember roach max?
Roaches 75/25
Hydras 100/25
Incoming 12 minute hydra max You should hope that someone is stupid enough to actually do that. A max of slow hydras with no upgrades might be the worst max in the game. And storm openings would be amazing. I'll take a colossus sentry army to deal with a hydra bust over storm opening any day lol Can't really, then you get hit by the muta switch since those hydras were 25 gas a pop. Roach timings relied on a tanky unit that could just bludgeon its way through. Hydras cannot do that. Some basic defense and decent AOE will wipe them out just as quickly as right now. Hydra/ling is surprisingly ineffective against a basic gateway army with good forcefields. The muta switch is a possible scenario, but the amount of production and resources needed to max on hydra/ling and then switch to mutas is huge. You'll never see this in a stage of the game where hydras are still dangerous. You dealt with roach max builds with immortal/sentry: roaches have short range so FF hinders them a lot, and immortals are reasonably inexpensive all things considered (at least compared to every AoE unit) and kill roaches extremely well. Colossi are expensive and require more tech: they're slower to get out and you'll have fewer units. No, you won't just kill it with AoE, and forcefields hinder hydras less than roaches because they have range. And you can't commit to super hard robo builds to counter the hydras because then you outright die to mutalisks. This will kill SG openings.
Exactly. Right now a huge concern protoss has in PvZ is how do you deal with mutas when you don't open stargate?
This patch would make opening stargate impossible.
Does this make sense to anyone? lol
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United States776 Posts
On January 24 2014 06:47 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 06:44 DinoMight wrote:On January 24 2014 06:42 Paragleiber wrote:
I still don't get why the Ghost energy thing should help mech in particular. Because Immortals counter tanks and Ghosts can EMP Immortals so they die really fast. But it will also help bio, if thats what you mean (not ONLY mech). Yeah but does that change actually makes ghosts easier to obtain when going mech? I never tried mech in TvP so I don't know...
Everything's a matter of timing. Moebius reactor costs 100/100 and the killer part (to the terran player) is actually the research time: 80 seconds. That means, once your ghost academy finishes, you have to WAIT an additional 40 more seconds before you can actually start ghost production.
Once you throw everything 40 seconds forward, things can swing wildly around in your favor. In short, it means terrans can get a much more reliable reaction to energy/shield based play.
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EPT
