EPTI think this would allow terran to have more variety on what they can do and not have to commit too heavily on timing attacks early on. Thus being able do what protoss' do which is cut units and add a mass of production.
1/24 Balance test map - Page 17
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Constructive criticism is welcome, but no mindless SC2/Developer bashing in this thread. | ||
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Tossim111
United States246 Posts
I think this would allow terran to have more variety on what they can do and not have to commit too heavily on timing attacks early on. Thus being able do what protoss' do which is cut units and add a mass of production. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
 Also like the Hydra buff. 25 gas is a huge difference to be honest. | ||
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Nerevar
547 Posts
On January 24 2014 05:55 2v2TLRSimba wrote: Why can't they make small changes to units, not just 'ooh lets make hydras cost half as much gas' its never like 5 less gas or tiny changes which is a way better way of balancing imo...you get to a point people are really quite happy with and you change tiny things, whereas blizzard gets to that point and decides to double queen range etc. Not enough changes to TvP to make me start playing again yet, gunna take a few more patches I guess. Also, it makes me pretty sad that LoL with hundreds of champions actually feels far more balanced than sc2 which esentially has had 3 years to balance 3 matchups. Afaik, almost all costs in sc2 are in intervals of 25, so the hydra change is in line with that. | ||
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sparklyresidue
United States5523 Posts
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
The hydra buff is pretty worthless, every hydra centric build relies on minerals, not gas. The problem is that the unit is bad, not that it's too pricey. The MSC nerf should probably be both a 20 second PO reduction AND the time warp energy increase. Seriously, this unit is broken. The vision range is the key issue here, really. Ghost buff is nice, they need some love. Overall a very confusing set of changes, tempest is even more ridiculous than before, and overall pretty much nothing looks to change much. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
Roaches 75/25 Hydras 100/25 Incoming 12 minute hydra max | ||
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Tossim111
United States246 Posts
i dont understand why you would buff the tempest, an already good unit. I think they should just accept the way pvz is played in terms of its style. the only improvement i can see is have it how starbow's pvz is currently. that is just what you're going to get with units like collosus and swarm host. atleast siege tanks were immobile when they reigned dominate in bw. | ||
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CannonsNCarriers
United States638 Posts
Make missile turret not require engy bay (greatly weakens proxy oracle) Make MSC have 4 vision and 4 cast range (makes the blink pressure stuff require MSC moving into marine firing range) That would render the game largely balanced by weakening the two strongest Protoss all-ins against T. | ||
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ivancype
Brazil485 Posts
On January 24 2014 06:03 ZeromuS wrote: Remember roach max? Roaches 75/25 Hydras 100/25 Incoming 12 minute hydra max I think Tefel will like this | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On January 24 2014 06:03 ZeromuS wrote: Remember roach max? Roaches 75/25 Hydras 100/25 Incoming 12 minute hydra max You should hope that someone is stupid enough to actually do that. A max of slow hydras with no upgrades might be the worst max in the game. | ||
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VArsovskiSC
Macedonia563 Posts
Photon Overcharge duration decreased from 60 to 50 We’d like to try a smaller change with Photon Overcharge duration than we previously proposed because we agree that going too low on this side could negatively affect PvP. On the balance test map, we must make sure to not only test how the change works out against the other races, but also in one-base PvP play. Maybe gonna work, still - this seems a bit like a "blind guess" of a change TBH to me.. Especially cause only that "the best" can exploit it.. Time Warp energy cost increased from 75 to 100 This is another option we can go with. We hope this will decrease the effectiveness of early game Protoss strength, as well as somewhat decrease the power of Blink-based strategies, which have become a lot more effective recently. Worst idea possible - not that TW is too strong, but it turns out that the ability is strong when "blink-based-strategies" are used.. Well - you risk to break all stability the ability does just in intention to fix one certain type of play.. If it's all about blink or busts - make so that Bunkers have more HP, or have an upgrade for increased bunker HP.. Or even - make so that the WM missiles are unavoidable (even with Blink) Ghosts build with the energy upgrade built in We believe this change will not only help Terran against Protoss, which is our top concern right now, but it’ll also help with TvP mech. Right now, we’re seeing a lot more mech usage in both TvT and TvZ, and as far as mech buffs go, we’d like to only touch TvP right now. Problem is that this further promotes bio play.. Now certainly that gives some space for EMP-supported mech, still - the changes will much more strongly affect bio play.. If it was about making mech better - then carefully study mech itself - my guess and my impression is that it was a mistake to intend the WM completely as a vs Zerg unit.. It has a lot of balance potential and changes that can be added/tested without necessarily breaking any part of the rest of the game.. Mines need guard flanks and Tanks better, that's what's required for mech, or even better - bio-mech, or at least bio-mine to work better overall.. Like - making it that Bio-Mine would work well - is like half of the job of making mech work done Hydralisk cost decreased from 100/50 to 100/25 We’re most concerned about PvZ with this change since Hydralisks are really only a core unit in that matchup. We’d love to see how the testing goes for this change on the next balance test map. We don’t think this will be problematic for either side in TvZ right now. It’s very Zergling/Baneling/Mutalisk focused for Zerg, whereas Terran players are exploring mech play and have the already solid option to go bio. We were thinking this buff will potentially help open up some more options for Zerg in this matchup. In ZvZ, we’re seeing a lot more Roach focused strategies than before and believe this change will allow for easier Roach/Hydra transitions. Overall, we want to check what a general Hydralisk buff would do for all three matchups in the next balance test map. I am very pleased to hear about PvZ (or more precisely - ZvP mid-game) concern.. The change is welcomed - the problem however is - stack this one up on top of the 2 proposed MSC nerfs and see what you get.. Hydra mid-game ZvP timings that Protoss is hardly (if not not at all) able to defend.. Late game PvZ Additionally on the Zerg front, we’re seeing a bit more in the way of super long and dragged out PvZ games in Europe. We’ve been discussing this internally and believe the main issue comes from using Swarm Hosts in a completely defensive way while taking additional expansions, massing Spore and Spine Crawlers, then continuing to play passively while using Vipers to pull key Protoss units into the forward, massed Zerg defenses. For this strategy, there are two main units involved, as well as the massing of base defenses, and we’d like a change that only hits this specific part of the PvZ game. We believe that when Swarm Hosts are not used in this manner, they aren’t an issue at the moment, especially when we see them being used in a lot of games coming from Korea. Similarly, when Vipers aren’t comboed with a mass of base defenses, we also don’t see the Viper being too powerful in other scenarios. So the change that we’re thinking about is: A Passive Tempest ability that allows them to deal 2-3 times more damage vs. Structures (We’re not 100% set on the actual value yet.) Protoss players who are facing this very passive Zerg style can get Tempests without too much trouble, and they come into play late enough that we’d like to test this change. If Tempests can not only kill the Crawlers much faster, but also allow Protoss to make cost effective trades more easily in this mid-map standoff scenario, we believe there will be much less incentive for Zerg to play this way. Again, none of this is final. We haven’t published a balance test map on it, yet. Your feedback is welcome, and if this process goes smoothly, we will look to publish a balance test map within the next couple of weeks at the latest. Thank you. So much rofl on this one - if SwarmHost is the problem - fix Swarmhost.. Tempest approach is something like "nah we don't wanna deal with this, just add some artifitial light at the end of the tunnel" overall.. Posted these before: SwarmHost fixes: 1 - reduce swarmhost locust creation time: down to 22 from 25 2 - increase locust longevity - up to 17 from 15 sec 3 - completely remove Enduring Locusts upgrade 4 - increase locust speed bonus on creep - up to 50%, or maybe even only up to 45% but still add some amount, from the current 40%, or at least if anything for the unit to have an upgrade - then make it be this - make it have 50% bonus creep speed on locusts, but have none without an upgrade 5 - decrease swarmhost cost - i.e. - 175/100 or even 175/75 instead of 200/100 The swarmhost currently is a lair-tech unlocked hive unit - which really makes no sense at all.. make the unit cheaper, but also less game-breaking overall OVERALL - The problem with this is each of these changes can (and seem to be liked already) "individually", but keep in mind that they'll come out all at once and "in batch" if you will, and therefore it's essential to have them in combination rethinked | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On January 24 2014 06:08 Squat wrote: You should hope that someone is stupid enough to actually do that. A max of slow hydras with no upgrades might be the worst max in the game. And storm openings would be amazing. | ||
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mythandier
United States828 Posts
As others have stated, this marginally effects PvP and has next to no effect on the other two MUs. Time Warp energy cost increased from 75 to 100 This won't alter the viability of Blink or other 2-base gateway all-in's since the power is in the vision granted. Other gateway all-in's will still have enough energy banked for 2 time warps. Ghosts build with the energy upgrade built in I'm trying to imagine what everyone's reaction to this would've been if they'd done this at the same time they took Amulet away from HT. As it stands, I don't see this making mech any more viable vs P in the mid-game since the primary problem is that you can't afford: Factories, Tanks, Hellions, Armories, Ebay (+ optional turrets @ mineral line/ramp for Oracles/DTs), Upgrades. Trying to add in additional TL-Rax, Ghost Academy, and Ghosts into that mix makes it even more likely that you'll just die to a straight up push. Hydralisk cost decreased from 100/50 to 100/25 This sounds good in principle but feel like a practical application will be a bit too much of a change. A Passive Tempest ability that allows them to deal 2-3 times more damage vs. Structures (We’re not 100% set on the actual value yet.) This is interesting but doesn't seem like it addresses any real issue faced by P. If anything it will just make their late game stronger vs the only Z composition that stands a change late game. | ||
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Creager
Germany1921 Posts
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
I'll take a colossus sentry army to deal with a hydra bust over storm opening any day lol | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
Get 1 colossus and kite them all over the map. | ||
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ivancype
Brazil485 Posts
Oh... also free units removed from the game | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On January 24 2014 06:12 Squat wrote: Get 1 colossus and kite them all over the map. The roach timings got speed, the hydra timings will too. I'd be way more scared of hydra/ling all-ins than I would be of roach all-ins. On January 24 2014 06:12 ffadicted wrote: I'll take a colossus sentry army to deal with a hydra bust over storm opening any day lol Can't really, then you get hit by the muta switch since those hydras were 25 gas a pop. | ||
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Butterednuts
United States859 Posts
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