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Constructive criticism is welcome, but no mindless SC2/Developer bashing in this thread. | ||
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Creager
Germany1923 Posts
On January 24 2014 05:07 DinoMight wrote: They're pretty good agaisnt units not named Immortals and Zealots. Yeah sure, totally fearsome unit for Protoss players, everytime I get them out, they flee and shit their pants in front of DA MIGHTY THOR! | ||
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Kyrao
United States161 Posts
Time Warp Change: This is a good change to force the protoss to only use a single time warp in TvP all ins while still giving them the ability to use double time warps later in the game. I do think that a vision nerf is still in order (14 is ridiculously good) as protoss still has hallucinations to scout with until obs are out. Ghost Change: I think this is a good step in the right direction as it will really only affect the TvP matchup. But what does that say about ghosts as a dynamic unit if it is really only viable in one matchup? Obviously TvZ mass ghost late game was not ideal, but I think the snipe nerf from 45 dmg to 25+25 was a little heavy handed. I would like you guys to consider a snipe change from 25+25 psi to 35+15 psi so that ghosts can snipe banelings and 4-shot snipe mutas. Ghosts are a really fun unit to use, but the fact that it takes 3 snipes to kill a combat shield marine or 4 snipes to kill a single hydra is kinda silly, in my opinion. Hydralisk Cost Change: I'm not so sure about this change with regards to it's effect on early game PvZ. Hydra pressure on the third is already quite strong in the match up on certain maps. This will also directly buff the increasingly popular roach/hydra tech switch into mass muta style, which is already quite strong in the ZvP match up. I too would like to see more hydra usage in the ZvZ match up, but I hope that you watch this change very closely to ensure it doesn't cause more harm than good. Tempest Change: I think of all the changes, this is the one that makes my stomach twist the most. The potential for negative side effects of a change like this is just too high in my opinion. Nobody likes watching ultra turtle ZvP games, but... yikes. | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
On January 24 2014 05:06 ZenithM wrote: Yeah I agree, but 200/100 does indeed sound better for mech. When you first start making ghosts in TvP the gas cost is actually a big deal since you are making dual medivacs, dual upgrades, and marauders. But yeah past the 15-16 minute mark the gas is less important. | ||
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JacobShock
Denmark2485 Posts
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TheFlexN
Israel472 Posts
Anyway, the MSC nerfs are something that everybody saw coming anyway, still, I think these are good changes when it comes to the "nerfing high templars by buffing units that die too fast to them or supposed to counter them directly". | ||
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Sly Faux
57 Posts
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Creager
Germany1923 Posts
On January 24 2014 05:10 Grobyc wrote: When you first start making ghosts in TvP the gas cost is actually a big deal since you are making dual medivacs, dual upgrades, and marauders. But yeah past the 15-16 minute mark the gas is less important. I think when looking at the current meta game, it just doesn't feel right when Protoss players can tech to whatever they want on double forges without having to fear any (potential) game ending pressure from the Terran player all by the 10 min mark, if they'd not be able to do that, I feel, the prevalent gas problem of Terrans during that timing would be solved kinda naturally. | ||
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one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
A gas decrease cost would be more interesting. As for mech TvP. How about a buff to the siege tank and a nerf to the immortal, David Kim? | ||
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0mg_t1red
Russian Federation104 Posts
Its rly hard to fix blink allins and dont affect other stalker functions, i guess it should be smth like fixing mcore vision etc. Also terran allins with ghost will become rly tough | ||
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
Ugh... First the oracle buff, now this... On January 24 2014 04:55 Chaggi wrote: They overbuff mutas in response to medivac boost and mines, the community tells them it was a bad idea, ZvP and ZvZ are messed up for weeks and devolve into mass muta beating most compositions, so what do they do? Buff spore crawlers.Which makes absolutely no sense at all. I have no idea what they're smoking, seriously. Rather than address an issue head on, they always seem to be sidestepping it (just look at 4gate PvP in WoL. People said from day 1 that the solution was to make it so you couldn't warp in above the forcefield on ramps and to make it so gaining high ground vision would be harder, but instead we got warpgate delayed by 40 seconds, killing every pressure style Protoss had against the other races in the process and forcing the awkward situation we have now where either Protoss all-ins or plays really passive . No in-between. And after solving the issue, were all the incorrect nerfs that didn't work revised? Nope). They've always done it, but lately it has become even more obvious. | ||
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imrusty269
United States1404 Posts
On January 24 2014 05:07 DinoMight wrote: They're pretty good agaisnt units not named Immortals and Zealots. Depends on how the fight happen. Most of the time they get outmaneuvered by roaches, stalkers, marauders, even mutas. Also carrier/battle cruisers rape em. Pretty bad unit, only good on paper. | ||
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Liman
Serbia681 Posts
On January 24 2014 05:17 one-one-one wrote: The ghost change will buff bio more than mech since it opens up ghost timings that might be viable. A gas decrease cost would be more interesting. As for mech TvP. How about a buff to the siege tank and a nerf to the immortal, David Kim? +1 User was warned for this post | ||
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Gamlet
Ukraine336 Posts
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mostevil
United Kingdom611 Posts
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Holdenintherye
Canada1441 Posts
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UltiBahamut
United States102 Posts
On January 24 2014 04:23 ArTiFaKs wrote: Great thanks for posting nothing but bitching and acting like you've already tested all these changes out so you know exactly what will happen if each of them were implemented. I'm glad your understanding of the game is so elite that if they tweak a couple things you have already played out each and every scenario that could occur in your head. I'm actually glad you won't be coming back to the game, because this community could use less people like you around. Its called a hypothesis. After playing a couple thousand games of this game at mid to high masters i believe i am qualified to take an educated guess at how specific changes will change the game. Especially since i hate playing the current meta game. I always try out new strats and different things throughout the year because i don't like doing cookie cutter shit and just trying to make the same thing work or simply steal the new best thing from a pro. I think it is good blizzard is trying stuff, but throughout the years i have slowly come to join the community that thinks blizzard has no idea what they are doing. You want a less bitchy version? Here Photon Overcharge duration decreased from 60 to 50 Pros: This means that in 10 seconds less terran can go back in to force another photon overcharge. This potentially allows for more harass from terran earlier. Or simply allows for terran to be able to do a big push about 20 seconds earlier if done correct against protoss. I'm a zerg player but i watch a shit load of streams. As for the PvZ part of this match up there are big chances that this wont change a thing. Early game zerg is completely on the defensive in the current meta game until we get up to 3 bases generally, except for the few and far between 2 base plays like swarm hosts/mutas are early early all ins. PvP: I have 0 knowledge in this area as i hate watching it so i'm not going to comment on it. Cons: Or the reason why this wont change anything is because lets say a terran does a drop. They drop, overcharge turns on, they fight for about the 10 seconds it takes the protoss army to reach the base and zoom out. Change didn't change anything for this. Big 2 base pushes by terran! After some dancing around in front of the toss base, probably after baiting out one charge. Terran says its time! and stims in. Next overcharge comes on. FF, micro, pew pew pew. Battle is over in about 20-30 seconds MAX. Can be much shorter depending on protoss build. Once again. Change didn't do anything. ZvP: Same issue as ZvT. Zerg pops in and will generally die/retreat/win in about 20-30 seconds. Because that is how long battles last in this game. Change does nothing, Even on zergling snipes the overcharge will be able to defend itself from quite a few zerglings. This is the only area that has potential change and requires testing to be sure. PvP: Same as what i said earlier. Overall: Doesn't change anything. Time Warp energy cost increased from 75 to 100 Pros: Makes protoss be a bit more conservative with their usage of this and the unit. Which is good :D as the energy the msc has could be life or death for the protoss due to the overcharge or recall. Early pushes will for sure only have 1 time warp but in most cases this is how it is currently. In PvT it makes it so terran should be more aggressive for the chance of less time warps later. Cons: Most protoss are careful with their msc and if they arnt it dies. They get it out early to bank up energy because that is what protoss do. By the mid game it can easily have its max energy to be able to cast 2 time warps depending on how the early game went. Overall: This is probably the best change in this patch. Wont fix much, but the right direction. Ghosts build with the energy upgrade built in Pros: This makes mech terrans able to get ghosts a bit easier against protoss as they don't have to but an upgrade that lets them EMP right out of the gate. This is similar to bio terrans BUT bio is generally much heavier on minerals than gas. So the upgrade isn't that big of a change. If the protoss is in your base chances are the terran is dead. So this is just saying that ghosts don't have to wait 25ish seconds to get their emp off. Cons: This style of balancing is bad for gameplay. They already did this with the tank, sure it allows for the builds to be smoother and safer. But is this really what it should be about? Its the risks that make this game fun, Knowing the timings that you are weak to. Knowing how to scout so you can spot if they are going for that timing and changing up your build to be able to defend it. While i love long macro games, i would much rather have aggressive macro games with amazing builds that show why certain players are better than others. There really is no con to this buff other than it is just a sad way of balancing. Hydralisk cost decreased from 100/50 to 100/25 Pros: As a zerg, Yay hydra's are cheaper. This will make the 3 base hydra/ling timing vs protoss much stronger as we will have more gas to make more hydras. I really shouldnt do a pro con here and more things it alters and the resounding effects it most likely will have. ZvP: So. We have more gas to build more hydras, But this means we will have a lot less zerglings and we will max out faster as our supply is being dumped into a 2 supply unit instead of a 1 supply unit. Hydralisks however are very flimsy units and die to essentially everything. So they still need that mineral income for the zerglings. What i expect to happen is instead of a 6 gas push i could see it changing to a 5 gas push to better balance out the mineral/gas cost to still get those tanking zerglings. ZvT: Wont change a thing. Hydras require their upgrades to really be good against terran, at least their movement buff. But zergs will go muta/ling/bane here because hydras are a bad investment. Overall they are slow and don't scale well with bio due to overkilling the enemy. ZvZ: This is where they said they were focusing. This is where it MIGHT have the biggest change. I don't know roach vs roach that well as i am a muta player because i feel as though it is the strongest opener. So against mutas i could see this helping a lot as the main issue with early muta defense is you can only trickle out hydralisks vs mutas. Now you can make more earlier with a better chance with remaxing. This would actually need testing to figure out if it is better/worse/no change at all. As for the roach/roach, i suppose it COULD be easier to go into hydras. But the issue is that roach vs roach is such a numbers game, if you buy the needed upgrades for the hydras that is essentially 4-10 roaches in gas (4-10 due to buying just 1 or 2. i don't remember exact costs atm so sue me). and 10ish roaches during a battle is a win loss considering we can only have 50-60 roaches at most. (assuming 70-80 drones with 3-5 queens leaves about 120 supply possible for the zerg.) Overall:Has most impact ZvZ like they said, POTENTIALLY breaks ZvP But needs to be tested, However, taking an educated guess is i don't think it will in the long run. It will be strong for a bit but protoss will figure it out. A Passive Tempest ability that allows them to deal 2-3 times more damage vs. Structures (We’re not 100% set on the actual value yet.) Protoss already has the strongest late game in the game. The only thing they struggle against is swarm hosts or endless free units. Which i understand is what this is focusing. However zerg AA is already really shitty. Corruptors/mutas/hydras/infested terrans get raped by storm like none other. Corruptors get destroyed by void rays, mutas KIND OF do, but mainly because of their low health/low armor. Hydras by themselves get destroyed as well by voids. Which pushes us towards queens and spores because our spire AA is pretty terrible in these late game situations. Especially when we are putting gas into swarm hosts. Now once again, Void rays tear through spores, but queens are the best counter we have against voids, which is where the other air units come in. Queens are terrible vs tempets/carriers due to pure high health/armor. Which forces out the spores and other units such as vipers and hydras and potentially infestors. (NP is amazing vs tempests) With all of this we are put onto equal footing with skytoss. because the swarm hosts are our anti templar. Thats all they are there for, kill templar and zealots. We have absolutely no other way of beating skytoss with psi storm and unless we do the fight perfectly it is still a hard fought battle against a player who knows how to do skytoss appropriately. There is no need for tempests to deal extra damage vs buildings. I would say this changes other match ups. But like i said i know nothing of current pvp so i wont comment there. And tempests never show up in TvZ due to collosus/psi storm being strong enough there is no reason to get tempests unless you're against mech. Which again could potentially help toss vs meching players like avilo who loves his missle turrets.. But seriously. Mech is struggling as it is. So overall. i still say. I hate this patch. It wont really do anything except hurt the game more and i still feel as though i hate blizzard's balance people. | ||
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Yakikorosu
1203 Posts
I'm glad that they're addressing swarm host turtling and they are very correct to focus on walls of spores/spines as a crucial element of "bad" (too passive) SH play (i.e., playing like Stephano). The Tempest idea is interesting, if they can snipe walls of spores from outside of Viper pull range, that starts sounding promising. The problem is that more direct fixes to this style of play require completely reworking how swarm hosts work, which just isn't going to happen at this point, or straight nerfing them which would totally unbalance PvZ. I do think though that a more direct nerf to blinkstalker all-ins might be needed, like a further increase to blink research time. | ||
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Krogan
Sweden375 Posts
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monsta
172 Posts
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