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Constructive criticism is welcome, but no mindless SC2/Developer bashing in this thread. |
Russian Federation104 Posts
On January 24 2014 05:36 Yakikorosu wrote:
I actually like all of these changes except the out-of-nowhere hydralisk buff. I guess they think that if they buff tempest for PvZ they also have to buff Zerg somehow? Hydras are already quite strong in ZvP.
I'm glad that they're addressing swarm host turtling and they are very correct to focus on walls of spores/spines as a crucial element of "bad" (too passive) SH play (i.e., playing like Stephano). The Tempest idea is interesting, if they can snipe walls of spores from outside of Viper pull range, that starts sounding promising. The problem is that more direct fixes to this style of play require completely reworking how swarm hosts work, which just isn't going to happen at this point, or straight nerfing them which would totally unbalance PvZ.
I do think though that a more direct nerf to blinkstalker all-ins might be needed, like a further increase to blink research time.
yeah but increasing blink research time will defenitely remove blink play from pvp and make muta based play in pvz even stonger, to my mind its not a great idea
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Hydra buff, Tempest buff, no thanks. Everything else is ok. I wish they would just fix swarm hosts being poorly designed rather than working around such a unit.
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I think the Hydralisk change should be saved for LotV, and probably coupled with a dps nerf and dropping the supply down to 1. It's a bit too ambitious to make this change in the middle of an expansion.
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If the hydra buff goes through, im quitting this game for good.
User was warned for this post
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ZvT: Wont change a thing. Hydras require their upgrades to really be good against terran, at least their movement buff. But zergs will go muta/ling/bane here because hydras are a bad investment. Overall they are slow and don't scale well with bio due to overkilling the enemy.
Don't be so sure, I saw many times a roach/hydra timing vs bio/mine. It will now allow to amass the hydra force even faster since you need HALF the gas. I wonder if now we won't see majority of hydras in such composition and timings or almost pure hydra with some insignificant roach numbers to tank first shots as it will be much easier to replenish your hydra numbers in case you get overpowered.
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If they want to buff hydras, why not give them a late game upgrade for their hp? Most late game units do tons of dmg anyway. Making hydras gas cheaper is going to supersede the roach in several ways and encourage more all-ins and muta transitions
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ZvP: So. We have more gas to build more hydras, But this means we will have a lot less zerglings and we will max out faster as our supply is being dumped into a 2 supply unit instead of a 1 supply unit. Hydralisks however are very flimsy units and die to essentially everything. So they still need that mineral income for the zerglings. What i expect to happen is instead of a 6 gas push i could see it changing to a 5 gas push to better balance out the mineral/gas cost to still get those tanking zerglings.
First off if gas cost is decreased by 50% you need half of the gases, unless you are building 70% more hydras than before. This buff would make the matchup completely broken because you could use 3 gases to build a ton of hydras and force colossi/storm and with the other 3 gases income prepare a massive muta switch. I don't see how any protoss player could survive a strategy like this (which is already a common part of the meta now) with the reduced gas cost of hydralisks.
But I guess that whining "zerg underpowered" is more satisfying to you than making actual use of the massive buffs you would receive.
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On January 24 2014 05:26 Liman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 05:17 one-one-one wrote:
The ghost change will buff bio more than mech since it opens up ghost timings that might be viable.
A gas decrease cost would be more interesting.
As for mech TvP. How about a buff to the siege tank and a nerf to the immortal, David Kim?
+1 User was warned for this post
Haha. Good old TL mods keeping the style.
Wasn't that a bit hard. It is my birthday ffs! 
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your Country52798 Posts
On January 24 2014 05:43 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 05:26 Liman wrote:On January 24 2014 05:17 one-one-one wrote:
The ghost change will buff bio more than mech since it opens up ghost timings that might be viable.
A gas decrease cost would be more interesting.
As for mech TvP. How about a buff to the siege tank and a nerf to the immortal, David Kim?
+1 User was warned for this post Haha. Good old TL mods keeping the style. Wasn't that a bit hard. It is my birthday ffs!
He was warned for making a 0 content post, not for agreeing with you
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Removing Khardian Crystal for P because it's OP. Giving it free for Terran, way to go.
I think I like the Photon Overcharge change the most, even though maining P
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I apologize in advance for the rant that is about to take place, but the poor quality of these changes says so much about this game and about the mindset of the team working on the game that I felt the need to make a rare post about it. For perspective I am a player that fluctuates between platinum and diamond play that plays both protoss and random depending on how I am feeling when I log-in.
Lets start with the Tempest change and how it ties in to the other changes and the mindset of the devteam.
The change to the Tempest is trying to compensate for the swarm host being an absolutely horrible unit. Lets be honest and not sugar coat the problem. Its a bad unit. Say it with me one more time so that going forward we are on the same page. The swarm host is a bad unit. It sounded cool in design but the swarm host is boring to play with, its boring to play against, and it is downright unbreakable with enough static defense - it is just a bad unit. Quit being lazy and re-design the freaking unit instead of trying to hard-counter it with other units. The tempest having double or triple damage against buildings has so many negative effects for so many other situations that I can not even begin to explain. 3 months from now is the solution to how ridiculously stupid tempest at in PvT to buff the Viking, which in term nerfs colossus and corrupters and brood lords and don't even get me started on carriers.
Its the same thing with the High Templar. The solution to the problem with storm in PvT is to redesign the collision radius of marines so that they are naturally spread a bit further making storm somewhat less effective against that specific unit, but that would require a lot of resources which blizzard is unwilling to commit. Instead lets just give ghosts more energy which at the diamond and below levels will make no difference at all towards the real problem which is that controlling a max bio army against a max storm/colo army is almost impossible (except for Taeja). It will however open up all kinds of ridiculous timings in PvT during a period in the game where terran is already considered strong.
I am going to group the photon-overcharge and hydra changes into a category which I will simply call stupid. The photon overcharge being reduced to 50 seconds is just plain dumb. The only matchup that I consistently wish photon overcharge would go away quicker in, is when I am playing PvP. You can call PvP rock paper scissor but it is SO MUCH BETTER than it was during wings because of the mothership core and P.O and this will only bring us closer to the dark days of wings of liberty. The hydra change is just so ridiculous I don't even know how David Kim came up with it. I seriously have to assume that the method used to come up with this change was the entire dev team making up a Madlib for David Kim to play and this was the result. Name a zerg unit, choose one of these 3 (gas, minerals, food), choose either a zerg or a buff, choose a number between 1 and 100. The resulting sentence was, Hydralisk cost reduced from 50 gas to 25 gas. My brain seriously could not handled reading that statement and I honestly am having a harder time believing in the developers everytime I read that statement.
The only change that makes any sense at all is the increased cost of time warp but it is still a broken ability that I think will have no effect on the game at all. And that last sentence pretty much sums up my opinion and this entire rant and that the best change of all 5 is the one that I feel will have no effect on the game at all. Pretty amazing.
In summary we all paid for the game already and blizzard is interested in keeping enough of the player base that it will still be relevant for the final expansion which they will try and keep relevant long enough for everyone to buy into the idea of a real money auction house being the selling point behind the game - Or did I lose track and go off on a Diablo 3 rant at the end there? Who knows at this point.
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On January 24 2014 05:45 The_Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 05:43 one-one-one wrote:On January 24 2014 05:26 Liman wrote:On January 24 2014 05:17 one-one-one wrote:
The ghost change will buff bio more than mech since it opens up ghost timings that might be viable.
A gas decrease cost would be more interesting.
As for mech TvP. How about a buff to the siege tank and a nerf to the immortal, David Kim?
+1 User was warned for this post Haha. Good old TL mods keeping the style. Wasn't that a bit hard. It is my birthday ffs! He was warned for making a 0 content post, not for agreeing with you
TL does require that people put more effort into their shit posts.
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hydras are imba sry ^^
also i dislike "remove upgrades" stuff  it takes away skill i think
tempest sound interesting
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I really hope they go through with this and don't abandon again before release. I'd like some crazier changes but I guess this is a first step.
I'm worried for zerg in late game zvp against Skytoss, since without spores they are helpless, but let's try. Swarmhost turtle is the worst, get rid of it.
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PO change: does nothing, not even in PvP.
Timewarp change: Interesting, but I´d rather see the spell effect being nerfed than its cost. This takes out the early MSC/stalker pressure which is helpful. For defending allins, this doesn´t do a lot. They need to adress timewarp. But I´d rather se the AoE and duration reduced.
Ghost energy change: Terrible, terrible change. Just a plain out horrible way to balance out things and I don´t really believe it will change a lot. It will probably not break anything, because ghost timings in TvP are played out without the energy research. You simply have the emp, when you arrive at Protoss base.
Hydra change: Rofl! This is a joke, right?
Tempest buff: So make Tempest destroy buildings really fast over a range of 2 screens? Can I get some of the weed you are smoking?
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Why can't they make small changes to units, not just 'ooh lets make hydras cost half as much gas' its never like 5 less gas or tiny changes which is a way better way of balancing imo...you get to a point people are really quite happy with and you change tiny things, whereas blizzard gets to that point and decides to double queen range etc. Not enough changes to TvP to make me start playing again yet, gunna take a few more patches I guess.
Also, it makes me pretty sad that LoL with hundreds of champions actually feels far more balanced than sc2 which esentially has had 3 years to balance 3 matchups.
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Oh I just remembered that the Rottispecial (proxy tempest) might become really good now, you can just kill the barracks and depots .
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On January 24 2014 05:55 2v2TLRSimba wrote:
Why can't they make small changes to units, not just 'ooh lets make hydras cost half as much gas' its never like 5 less gas or tiny changes which is a way better way of balancing imo...you get to a point people are really quite happy with and you change tiny things, whereas blizzard gets to that point and decides to double queen range etc. Not enough changes to TvP to make me start playing again yet, gunna take a few more patches I guess.
Actually, I would argue the problem with blizzard is that they make relatively "small" changes. When I mean small, I mean numerically. Some of the problems people see with this game has nothing to do with numbers but more to do with design.
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On January 24 2014 05:41 0mg_t1red wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 05:36 Yakikorosu wrote:
I actually like all of these changes except the out-of-nowhere hydralisk buff. I guess they think that if they buff tempest for PvZ they also have to buff Zerg somehow? Hydras are already quite strong in ZvP.
I'm glad that they're addressing swarm host turtling and they are very correct to focus on walls of spores/spines as a crucial element of "bad" (too passive) SH play (i.e., playing like Stephano). The Tempest idea is interesting, if they can snipe walls of spores from outside of Viper pull range, that starts sounding promising. The problem is that more direct fixes to this style of play require completely reworking how swarm hosts work, which just isn't going to happen at this point, or straight nerfing them which would totally unbalance PvZ.
I do think though that a more direct nerf to blinkstalker all-ins might be needed, like a further increase to blink research time. yeah but increasing blink research time will defenitely remove blink play from pvp and make muta based play in pvz even stonger, to my mind its not a great idea
Blink stalkers all-ins have never been such an issue until MSC was introduced. Having a tier 1 flying unit that gives you high ground vision as well as all the other skills that it has (time warp...) is the real problem. Before, they had to get an obs to do a blink all-in.
At least they know time warp is an issue here but increasing the energy to use it isn't going to change the fact that they can still use it on a ramp during their blink stalker builds, have fun defending that, and if you do defend it well, as a terran, you are still behind on tech and upgrades.
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EPT
