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in case anyone is wondering .. thorzain is going mech vs zerg .. double armory style .. in his stream right now
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On November 13 2013 21:09 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 21:06 vthree wrote:
Just throwing an idea out there.
How would people feel about a cost reduction in static defense for terran (bunkers, turrets).
It would help with stuff like proxy oracles, blink all-ins and muta backstabs (the bane of tank/marine). It likely won't really make 11-11s, bunker/reaper stronger since the build time is more of the issue in those scenario and turrets are for defense. Would make mech more viable and less banshee just ending games in TvT. If they want to keep the Oracle and the Mutalisk as stupid as they are now, Turrets could indeed do with costing 75 instead of 100.
Or no engi bay requirement for turrets.
On November 13 2013 21:14 goody153 wrote:
in case anyone is wondering .. thorzain is going mech vs zerg .. double armory style .. in his stream right now
Thanks, /turns on thorzain stream
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On November 13 2013 21:11 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 19:49 TeeTS wrote:On November 13 2013 19:31 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:25 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:20 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:04 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:53 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 18:49 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:14 larse wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, that's just some PR stuff. They are extremely reluctant to make any Terran buff.
2014 = 2012 where Terran goes down. 2 buffs, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.12#Balance_Update1 buff, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.9#Balance_Updatethen from the beta we have: Medivac buff Raven buff(s) Yamato Canon buff Thor buff Siege Tank Upgrade removed Reaper buff Mech Weapon buff part 1 might be missing something... gonna keep in mind that being "extremly reluctant to make any Terran buff" means that they changed everything that is underused in some way (minus ghosts). Yeah, because the Cloak buff totally compensated the Hellbat nerf in TvP/Z, right? Your digital argument is so pointless. Read what I respond to.... He said "any Terran buff". Which gets disproven by... well, showing any Terran buff. Imaginary patch: Marines' dps decreased by 30% Hellions' hit points increased by 5 → Big J's comment: "Terran has been buffed." Strong logic at work here. you don't get what I was responding to, do you? But yes, Terran would be buffed with this patch. And nerfed. You know, it's not a one-dimensional relationship. SC2 isn't one number that you increase or decrease with a patch, it's a vector of many of them. Edit: But that's probably too much for you. I'd rather post something on your level: uaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggaios jdpoi afhiophs afkj ashl h l as You're the one not getting it. You're considering an individual buff and saying "look, they do buff Terran!" when you have to analyze the patch at a whole. You could still heavily weaken a race with 8 buffs and a single nerf. No you don't have to analyize it at a whole. Because when you buff banshees and nerf hellbats you buff banshee-based playstyles. The outcome may be weaker in certain scenarios. It may be weaker statistically speaking as a whole. But it's still a buff in other scenarios. That's why you can't consider it as a whole. You simply cannot say the banshee cloaking cost reduction is not a buff to Terran. Oh you absolutely can, since cloaked Banshee´s have absolutely 0 impact on non mirror matchups. You could give them the cloak for free right from the start! It would not change anything at all in TvZ and TvP! People said that hellbats didn't affect anything but tvt as well. I agree with that about as much as I agree with you're idea on free cloak for banshees 
More like Hellbats were broken in TvT but manageable by Zerg and Protoss.
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On November 13 2013 21:06 vthree wrote:
Just throwing an idea out there.
How would people feel about a cost reduction in static defense for terran (bunkers, turrets).
It would help with stuff like proxy oracles, blink all-ins and muta backstabs (the bane of tank/marine). It likely won't really make 11-11s, bunker/reaper stronger since the build time is more of the issue in those scenario and turrets are for defense. Would make mech more viable and less banshee just ending games in TvT.
Gimme back my 75 mineral turrets!
Yeah that could certainly help the fragile terran early game as well as make terran less vulnerable to warp prisms and mutas. I wouldn't necessarily make bunkers cheaper though, just to avoid the inevitable outcry of bunker rushes.
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On November 13 2013 21:09 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 21:06 vthree wrote:
Just throwing an idea out there.
How would people feel about a cost reduction in static defense for terran (bunkers, turrets).
It would help with stuff like proxy oracles, blink all-ins and muta backstabs (the bane of tank/marine). It likely won't really make 11-11s, bunker/reaper stronger since the build time is more of the issue in those scenario and turrets are for defense. Would make mech more viable and less banshee just ending games in TvT. If they want to keep the Oracle and the Mutalisk as stupid as they are now, Turrets could indeed do with costing 75 instead of 100.
I will never understand why they gave mutas the passive health regen.
I just wish blizzard would undo every single thing they've done to mutas bar the acceleration change if they have to put through changes to terran like this. Mass muta ruins every match up ZvX and instead of fixing the problem they give these bandaid solutions (widow mines, spore crawlers) which have a short amount of time as a solution but don't really fix the problem.
It would be so beautiful to see them nerf mutas, buff the size of the thor aoe by a bit so magic boxing is quite as effective, and then keep the nerfs to widow mines and the speed that afterburners puts out slightly.
As it is atm is just silly.
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On November 13 2013 21:14 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 21:11 bo1b wrote:On November 13 2013 19:49 TeeTS wrote:On November 13 2013 19:31 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:25 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:20 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:04 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:53 TheDwf wrote:Yeah, because the Cloak buff totally compensated the Hellbat nerf in TvP/Z, right? Your digital argument is so pointless. Read what I respond to.... He said "any Terran buff". Which gets disproven by... well, showing any Terran buff. Imaginary patch: Marines' dps decreased by 30% Hellions' hit points increased by 5 → Big J's comment: "Terran has been buffed." Strong logic at work here. you don't get what I was responding to, do you? But yes, Terran would be buffed with this patch. And nerfed. You know, it's not a one-dimensional relationship. SC2 isn't one number that you increase or decrease with a patch, it's a vector of many of them. Edit: But that's probably too much for you. I'd rather post something on your level: uaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggaios jdpoi afhiophs afkj ashl h l as You're the one not getting it. You're considering an individual buff and saying "look, they do buff Terran!" when you have to analyze the patch at a whole. You could still heavily weaken a race with 8 buffs and a single nerf. No you don't have to analyize it at a whole. Because when you buff banshees and nerf hellbats you buff banshee-based playstyles. The outcome may be weaker in certain scenarios. It may be weaker statistically speaking as a whole. But it's still a buff in other scenarios. That's why you can't consider it as a whole. You simply cannot say the banshee cloaking cost reduction is not a buff to Terran. Oh you absolutely can, since cloaked Banshee´s have absolutely 0 impact on non mirror matchups. You could give them the cloak for free right from the start! It would not change anything at all in TvZ and TvP! People said that hellbats didn't affect anything but tvt as well. I agree with that about as much as I agree with you're idea on free cloak for banshees More like Hellbats were broken in TvT but manageable by Zerg and Protoss.
Lol, I loved throwing down like 6 spores every game + 3 extra queens vs every terran just so I wouldn't lose entire worker lines, for terran to then be able to kill like 5 drones and suddenly they've done enough damage to marauder hellbat push into win.
It was pretty stupid.
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I think the Oracle buff will turn out like the medivac boost: totally absurd at first...but after a month completely acceptable - and not broken at all.
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On November 13 2013 21:25 AxiomBlurr wrote:
I think the Oracle buff will turn out like the medivac boost: totally absurd at first...but after a month completely acceptable - and not as broken as we 1st thought.
I still think medivac boost is absurd.
Too bad Blizzard has nerfed every other terran unit instead of it.
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On November 13 2013 21:28 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 21:25 AxiomBlurr wrote:
I think the Oracle buff will turn out like the medivac boost: totally absurd at first...but after a month completely acceptable - and not as broken as we 1st thought. I still think medivac boost is absurd. Too bad Blizzard has nerfed every other terran unit instead of it.
I agree with u...but it is totally reasonable for Diamond players and above....
HSC is coming up -- I really hope you all watch - to see first hand the impact these changes will make...
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Every single change will seem acceptable once you're used to it.
Like, the opening theme of your favorite tv show might be awful, but watch a 100 episodes and you'll be annoyed when they update the theme for a new season.
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I like the patch alot even though it might seriously screw balance.
P and Z don;t change much but the changes are great. I'm a big fan of this oracle change and don't think it overdoes it, it really just gives more choices. Oracle play in PvT was okish already with Dear and sOs showcasing it lately but now it may even become the norm. Before stimmed marines took them out to easily as they were same speed and oracles having to react or turn around would cost them their life, now they escape easily. Same for oracles in PvZ, they can run away from mutalisks and hydra's on creep easily now which is huge. Going phoenix or oracles is now a real decision in PvZ where i'm inclined to lean towards oracles now. Oracles you just need 1 or 2 to force spores, do a little damage and scout plus they are great against defending the third against lings. Before though they were difficult to scout with and instantly died if muta's popped which are both solved now.
Roach change is just great, may rid us finally of those massive sentry plays in ZvP and provides a little more action in ZvZ possibly. I had still hoped there was a little something to spice up ZvZ more though as it looks even more roach centric now, bringing back a fungal bonus vs armored or just slightly nerfing spores against bio may open it up more.
Terran changes are a whole different beast and it;s difficult to say how it will play out. Widow mine nerf is substantial as the aoe to effectively kill workers or banelings is just much smaller now making widow mine drops openers useless. It also affects TvZ bigtime. Tank change could make up for it but I'm not sure, I feel like terran got a downgrade on a superb unit and got a buff on a mediocre unit which is worse for them. I hope marine tank with a splash of widow mines or just full on mech work though, in that case these changes are awesome but I doubt it and fear it may just be back to bomber styles of TvZ, super aggressive with very few widow mines.
TvP probably won;t change, this is not nearly enough to make mech work I think. Widow mine and thus gas openers just get worse and hellbats are easier to mix in lategame, ultimately making terran a little worse off I feel.
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On November 13 2013 19:42 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 19:31 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:25 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:20 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:04 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:53 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 18:49 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:14 larse wrote:On November 13 2013 18:06 Sapphire.lux wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, i heard that before. The result was mech becoming worse then it has ever been. Yeah, that's just some PR stuff. They are extremely reluctant to make any Terran buff. 2014 = 2012 where Terran goes down. 2 buffs, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.12#Balance_Update1 buff, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.9#Balance_Updatethen from the beta we have: Medivac buff Raven buff(s) Yamato Canon buff Thor buff Siege Tank Upgrade removed Reaper buff Mech Weapon buff part 1 might be missing something... gonna keep in mind that being "extremly reluctant to make any Terran buff" means that they changed everything that is underused in some way (minus ghosts). Yeah, because the Cloak buff totally compensated the Hellbat nerf in TvP/Z, right? Your digital argument is so pointless. Read what I respond to.... He said "any Terran buff". Which gets disproven by... well, showing any Terran buff. Imaginary patch: Marines' dps decreased by 30% Hellions' hit points increased by 5 → Big J's comment: "Terran has been buffed." Strong logic at work here. you don't get what I was responding to, do you? But yes, Terran would be buffed with this patch. And nerfed. You know, it's not a one-dimensional relationship. SC2 isn't one number that you increase or decrease with a patch, it's a vector of many of them. Edit: But that's probably too much for you. I'd rather post something on your level: uaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggaios jdpoi afhiophs afkj ashl h l as You're the one not getting it. You're considering an individual buff and saying "look, they do buff Terran!" when you have to analyze the patch at a whole. You could still heavily weaken a race with 8 buffs and a single nerf. No you don't have to analyize it at a whole. Because when you buff banshees and nerf hellbats you buff banshee-based playstyles. The outcome may be weaker in certain scenarios. It may be weaker statistically speaking as a whole. But it's still a buff in other scenarios. That's why you can't consider it as a whole. You simply cannot say the banshee cloaking cost reduction is not a buff to Terran. I am not disputing the fact the Cloak Banshee cost reduction was a Terran buff. I am saying the combination of the Cloak Banshee cost reduction and the Hellbat damage decrease resulted in Terran being weakened; thus the patch was a Terran nerf. Arguing that Blizzard isn't afraid to buff Terran because they offer derisory compensations when demolishing entire parts of the Terran gameplay makes little sense.
And I explicitly stated:
1 buff, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.9#Balance_Update
which should give you the idea that I'm counting each of them on it's own in the specific argumentation which was about listing all the buffs Terran has received since WoL.
It is very, very clear that I was not arguing that Terran has become stronger through 2.0.9 BU, but that there has been a change that was a buff. Unless you explicitly don't want to see it that way, but then you are just arguing something else which has nothing to do with what I was saying. Since what you are arguing is not counting buffs but evaluating their impact in retrospect.
On November 13 2013 20:09 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 19:20 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:04 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:53 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 18:49 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:14 larse wrote:On November 13 2013 18:06 Sapphire.lux wrote:Yeah, i heard that before. The result was mech becoming worse then it has ever been. Yeah, that's just some PR stuff. They are extremely reluctant to make any Terran buff. 2014 = 2012 where Terran goes down. 2 buffs, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.12#Balance_Update1 buff, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.9#Balance_Updatethen from the beta we have: Medivac buff Raven buff(s) Yamato Canon buff Thor buff Siege Tank Upgrade removed Reaper buff Mech Weapon buff part 1 might be missing something... gonna keep in mind that being "extremly reluctant to make any Terran buff" means that they changed everything that is underused in some way (minus ghosts). Yeah, because the Cloak buff totally compensated the Hellbat nerf in TvP/Z, right? Your digital argument is so pointless. Read what I respond to.... He said "any Terran buff". Which gets disproven by... well, showing any Terran buff. Imaginary patch: Marines' dps decreased by 30% Hellions' hit points increased by 5 → Big J's comment: "Terran has been buffed." Strong logic at work here. you don't get what I was responding to, do you? But yes, Terran would be buffed with this patch. And nerfed. You know, it's not a one-dimensional relationship. SC2 isn't one number that you increase or decrease with a patch, it's a vector of many of them. Edit: But that's probably too much for you. I'd rather post something on your level: uaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggaios jdpoi afhiophs afkj ashl h l as I don't see why you shouldn't evaluate the patch with a one-dimension variable. Take the winrate in TvZ (at the highest level of course, not on ladder) for example. If it decreases after the patch, that will have been a nerf, if it increases, that will have been a buff. It's certainly simple and not representative of how a matchup is played, but that's not unreasonable. No need to pull out fancy math notations and be rude to others, that doesn't make you look smarter.
Of course you can evaluate it with a one dimensional variable. But I did not mean to evaluate patches but to list buffs. And I don't see why on a somewhat complete list off Terran buffs in HotS I wouldn't be allowed to list decreased cloak costs, since making such a list has nothing to do with wether it took place at the same time with a nerf (hellbats in this case).
But also, if you evaluate such patches with a one-dimensional variable keep in mind that it defies the whole purpose of patches like this one, which should increase the amount of playable styles (so changes that works on certain dimensions of such a balance-vector, but not on others) and is therefore less acurate at describing the purpose/results.
I know it doesn't make me look smarter, though, I don't think it makes me look dumber than the strawman I was responding to.
On November 13 2013 21:06 vthree wrote:
Just throwing an idea out there.
How would people feel about a cost reduction in static defense for terran (bunkers, turrets).
It would help with stuff like proxy oracles, blink all-ins and muta backstabs (the bane of tank/marine). It likely won't really make 11-11s, bunker/reaper stronger since the build time is more of the issue in those scenario and turrets are for defense. Would make mech more viable and less banshee just ending games in TvT.
remove the ebay requirement.
Also helps Mech, since Mech doesn't really need an ebay apart from the ability to build turrets.
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Big J Austria. November 13 2013 21:50. Posts 7009Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 21:06 vthree wrote:
Just throwing an idea out there.
How would people feel about a cost reduction in static defense for terran (bunkers, turrets).
It would help with stuff like proxy oracles, blink all-ins and muta backstabs (the bane of tank/marine). It likely won't really make 11-11s, bunker/reaper stronger since the build time is more of the issue in those scenario and turrets are for defense. Would make mech more viable and less banshee just ending games in TvT. remove the ebay requirement. Also helps Mech, since Mech doesn't really need an ebay apart from the ability to build turrets.
uhm this does not hurt dt play from toss right ? well its fine in pvz so it should be fine in pvt
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On November 13 2013 21:50 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 19:42 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:31 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:25 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:20 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:04 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:53 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 18:49 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:14 larse wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, that's just some PR stuff. They are extremely reluctant to make any Terran buff.
2014 = 2012 where Terran goes down. 2 buffs, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.12#Balance_Update1 buff, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.9#Balance_Updatethen from the beta we have: Medivac buff Raven buff(s) Yamato Canon buff Thor buff Siege Tank Upgrade removed Reaper buff Mech Weapon buff part 1 might be missing something... gonna keep in mind that being "extremly reluctant to make any Terran buff" means that they changed everything that is underused in some way (minus ghosts). Yeah, because the Cloak buff totally compensated the Hellbat nerf in TvP/Z, right? Your digital argument is so pointless. Read what I respond to.... He said "any Terran buff". Which gets disproven by... well, showing any Terran buff. Imaginary patch: Marines' dps decreased by 30% Hellions' hit points increased by 5 → Big J's comment: "Terran has been buffed." Strong logic at work here. you don't get what I was responding to, do you? But yes, Terran would be buffed with this patch. And nerfed. You know, it's not a one-dimensional relationship. SC2 isn't one number that you increase or decrease with a patch, it's a vector of many of them. Edit: But that's probably too much for you. I'd rather post something on your level: uaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggaios jdpoi afhiophs afkj ashl h l as You're the one not getting it. You're considering an individual buff and saying "look, they do buff Terran!" when you have to analyze the patch at a whole. You could still heavily weaken a race with 8 buffs and a single nerf. No you don't have to analyize it at a whole. Because when you buff banshees and nerf hellbats you buff banshee-based playstyles. The outcome may be weaker in certain scenarios. It may be weaker statistically speaking as a whole. But it's still a buff in other scenarios. That's why you can't consider it as a whole. You simply cannot say the banshee cloaking cost reduction is not a buff to Terran. I am not disputing the fact the Cloak Banshee cost reduction was a Terran buff. I am saying the combination of the Cloak Banshee cost reduction and the Hellbat damage decrease resulted in Terran being weakened; thus the patch was a Terran nerf. Arguing that Blizzard isn't afraid to buff Terran because they offer derisory compensations when demolishing entire parts of the Terran gameplay makes little sense. And I explicitly stated: 1 buff, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.9#Balance_Updatewhich should give you the idea that I'm counting each of them on it's own in the specific argumentation which was about listing all the buffs Terran has received since WoL. It is very, very clear that I was not arguing that Terran has become stronger through 2.0.9 BU, but that there has been a change that was a buff. Unless you explicitly don't want to see it that way, but then you are just arguing something else which has nothing to do with what I was saying. Since what you are arguing is not counting buffs but evaluating their impact in retrospect. Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 20:09 ZenithM wrote:On November 13 2013 19:20 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:04 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:53 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 18:49 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:14 larse wrote:On November 13 2013 18:06 Sapphire.lux wrote:Yeah, i heard that before. The result was mech becoming worse then it has ever been. Yeah, that's just some PR stuff. They are extremely reluctant to make any Terran buff. 2014 = 2012 where Terran goes down. 2 buffs, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.12#Balance_Update1 buff, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.9#Balance_Updatethen from the beta we have: Medivac buff Raven buff(s) Yamato Canon buff Thor buff Siege Tank Upgrade removed Reaper buff Mech Weapon buff part 1 might be missing something... gonna keep in mind that being "extremly reluctant to make any Terran buff" means that they changed everything that is underused in some way (minus ghosts). Yeah, because the Cloak buff totally compensated the Hellbat nerf in TvP/Z, right? Your digital argument is so pointless. Read what I respond to.... He said "any Terran buff". Which gets disproven by... well, showing any Terran buff. Imaginary patch: Marines' dps decreased by 30% Hellions' hit points increased by 5 → Big J's comment: "Terran has been buffed." Strong logic at work here. you don't get what I was responding to, do you? But yes, Terran would be buffed with this patch. And nerfed. You know, it's not a one-dimensional relationship. SC2 isn't one number that you increase or decrease with a patch, it's a vector of many of them. Edit: But that's probably too much for you. I'd rather post something on your level: uaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggaios jdpoi afhiophs afkj ashl h l as I don't see why you shouldn't evaluate the patch with a one-dimension variable. Take the winrate in TvZ (at the highest level of course, not on ladder) for example. If it decreases after the patch, that will have been a nerf, if it increases, that will have been a buff. It's certainly simple and not representative of how a matchup is played, but that's not unreasonable. No need to pull out fancy math notations and be rude to others, that doesn't make you look smarter. Of course you can evaluate it with a one dimensional variable. But I did not mean to evaluate patches but to list buffs. And I don't see why on a somewhat complete list off Terran buffs in HotS I wouldn't be allowed to list decreased cloak costs, since making such a list has nothing to do with wether it took place at the same time with a nerf (hellbats in this case). But also, if you evaluate such patches with a one-dimensional variable keep in mind that it defies the whole purpose of patches like this one, which should increase the amount of playable styles (so changes that works on certain dimensions of such a balance-vector, but not on others) and is therefore less acurate at describing the purpose/results. I know it doesn't make me look smarter, though, I don't think it makes me look dumber than the strawman I was responding to. Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 21:06 vthree wrote:
Just throwing an idea out there.
How would people feel about a cost reduction in static defense for terran (bunkers, turrets).
It would help with stuff like proxy oracles, blink all-ins and muta backstabs (the bane of tank/marine). It likely won't really make 11-11s, bunker/reaper stronger since the build time is more of the issue in those scenario and turrets are for defense. Would make mech more viable and less banshee just ending games in TvT. remove the ebay requirement. Also helps Mech, since Mech doesn't really need an ebay apart from the ability to build turrets.
so why should we care about anything you say? Nobody gives a shit about a definition of the word "race buff", its the impact on the race as a whole that we care about. In your world removing the marines while giving the medivac more health is simply "a buff and a nerf". Well whoop di do, why should we care about such flawed reasoning?
The underlying theme of nerfing something that was imbalanced months ago but now is completetely balanced while giving a tiny tiny miniscule buff to something else with the goal of "creating diversity" is completely absurd.
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On November 13 2013 22:05 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 21:50 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:42 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:31 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:25 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:20 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:04 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:53 TheDwf wrote:Yeah, because the Cloak buff totally compensated the Hellbat nerf in TvP/Z, right? Your digital argument is so pointless. Read what I respond to.... He said "any Terran buff". Which gets disproven by... well, showing any Terran buff. Imaginary patch: Marines' dps decreased by 30% Hellions' hit points increased by 5 → Big J's comment: "Terran has been buffed." Strong logic at work here. you don't get what I was responding to, do you? But yes, Terran would be buffed with this patch. And nerfed. You know, it's not a one-dimensional relationship. SC2 isn't one number that you increase or decrease with a patch, it's a vector of many of them. Edit: But that's probably too much for you. I'd rather post something on your level: uaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggaios jdpoi afhiophs afkj ashl h l as You're the one not getting it. You're considering an individual buff and saying "look, they do buff Terran!" when you have to analyze the patch at a whole. You could still heavily weaken a race with 8 buffs and a single nerf. No you don't have to analyize it at a whole. Because when you buff banshees and nerf hellbats you buff banshee-based playstyles. The outcome may be weaker in certain scenarios. It may be weaker statistically speaking as a whole. But it's still a buff in other scenarios. That's why you can't consider it as a whole. You simply cannot say the banshee cloaking cost reduction is not a buff to Terran. I am not disputing the fact the Cloak Banshee cost reduction was a Terran buff. I am saying the combination of the Cloak Banshee cost reduction and the Hellbat damage decrease resulted in Terran being weakened; thus the patch was a Terran nerf. Arguing that Blizzard isn't afraid to buff Terran because they offer derisory compensations when demolishing entire parts of the Terran gameplay makes little sense. And I explicitly stated: 1 buff, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.9#Balance_Updatewhich should give you the idea that I'm counting each of them on it's own in the specific argumentation which was about listing all the buffs Terran has received since WoL. It is very, very clear that I was not arguing that Terran has become stronger through 2.0.9 BU, but that there has been a change that was a buff. Unless you explicitly don't want to see it that way, but then you are just arguing something else which has nothing to do with what I was saying. Since what you are arguing is not counting buffs but evaluating their impact in retrospect. On November 13 2013 20:09 ZenithM wrote:On November 13 2013 19:20 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:04 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:53 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 18:49 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:14 larse wrote:On November 13 2013 18:06 Sapphire.lux wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, i heard that before. The result was mech becoming worse then it has ever been. Yeah, that's just some PR stuff. They are extremely reluctant to make any Terran buff. 2014 = 2012 where Terran goes down. 2 buffs, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.12#Balance_Update1 buff, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.9#Balance_Updatethen from the beta we have: Medivac buff Raven buff(s) Yamato Canon buff Thor buff Siege Tank Upgrade removed Reaper buff Mech Weapon buff part 1 might be missing something... gonna keep in mind that being "extremly reluctant to make any Terran buff" means that they changed everything that is underused in some way (minus ghosts). Yeah, because the Cloak buff totally compensated the Hellbat nerf in TvP/Z, right? Your digital argument is so pointless. Read what I respond to.... He said "any Terran buff". Which gets disproven by... well, showing any Terran buff. Imaginary patch: Marines' dps decreased by 30% Hellions' hit points increased by 5 → Big J's comment: "Terran has been buffed." Strong logic at work here. you don't get what I was responding to, do you? But yes, Terran would be buffed with this patch. And nerfed. You know, it's not a one-dimensional relationship. SC2 isn't one number that you increase or decrease with a patch, it's a vector of many of them. Edit: But that's probably too much for you. I'd rather post something on your level: uaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggaios jdpoi afhiophs afkj ashl h l as I don't see why you shouldn't evaluate the patch with a one-dimension variable. Take the winrate in TvZ (at the highest level of course, not on ladder) for example. If it decreases after the patch, that will have been a nerf, if it increases, that will have been a buff. It's certainly simple and not representative of how a matchup is played, but that's not unreasonable. No need to pull out fancy math notations and be rude to others, that doesn't make you look smarter. Of course you can evaluate it with a one dimensional variable. But I did not mean to evaluate patches but to list buffs. And I don't see why on a somewhat complete list off Terran buffs in HotS I wouldn't be allowed to list decreased cloak costs, since making such a list has nothing to do with wether it took place at the same time with a nerf (hellbats in this case). But also, if you evaluate such patches with a one-dimensional variable keep in mind that it defies the whole purpose of patches like this one, which should increase the amount of playable styles (so changes that works on certain dimensions of such a balance-vector, but not on others) and is therefore less acurate at describing the purpose/results. I know it doesn't make me look smarter, though, I don't think it makes me look dumber than the strawman I was responding to. On November 13 2013 21:06 vthree wrote:
Just throwing an idea out there.
How would people feel about a cost reduction in static defense for terran (bunkers, turrets).
It would help with stuff like proxy oracles, blink all-ins and muta backstabs (the bane of tank/marine). It likely won't really make 11-11s, bunker/reaper stronger since the build time is more of the issue in those scenario and turrets are for defense. Would make mech more viable and less banshee just ending games in TvT. remove the ebay requirement. Also helps Mech, since Mech doesn't really need an ebay apart from the ability to build turrets. so why should we care about anything you say? Nobody gives a shit about a definition of the word "race buff", its the impact on the race as a whole that we care about. In your world removing the marines while giving the medivac more health is simply "a buff and a nerf". Well whoop di do, why should we care about such flawed reasoning? The underlying theme of nerfing something that was imbalanced months ago but now is completetely balanced while giving a tiny tiny miniscule buff to something else with the goal of "creating diversity" is completely absurd.
read what I responded to before TheDwf's strawmened what I wrote.
What I was responding to was:
They are extremely reluctant to make any Terran buff.
So you are either interpreting it as I do, which means he is plainly wrong since there have been buffs.
Or you are interpreting it as you do and there is "no increase in power of Terran", in which case I guess we are on the same side since we don't think there need to be changes (yes, the mine nerf is unnecessary in my opinion) and we both think that his comment makes no sense. Since there does not need to be a "increase in power of Terran".
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Was watching Grubby play a bunch of PvZ yesterday and holy crap the new burrowed roaches are TERRIFYING. I'm pretty sure they only seem that way because they are new though and hopefully it doesn't end up being a problem, but forcefields seemed rather useless against them O_O
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On November 13 2013 21:50 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 19:42 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:31 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:25 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:20 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:04 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:53 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 18:49 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:14 larse wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, that's just some PR stuff. They are extremely reluctant to make any Terran buff.
2014 = 2012 where Terran goes down. 2 buffs, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.12#Balance_Update1 buff, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.9#Balance_Updatethen from the beta we have: Medivac buff Raven buff(s) Yamato Canon buff Thor buff Siege Tank Upgrade removed Reaper buff Mech Weapon buff part 1 might be missing something... gonna keep in mind that being "extremly reluctant to make any Terran buff" means that they changed everything that is underused in some way (minus ghosts). Yeah, because the Cloak buff totally compensated the Hellbat nerf in TvP/Z, right? Your digital argument is so pointless. Read what I respond to.... He said "any Terran buff". Which gets disproven by... well, showing any Terran buff. Imaginary patch: Marines' dps decreased by 30% Hellions' hit points increased by 5 → Big J's comment: "Terran has been buffed." Strong logic at work here. you don't get what I was responding to, do you? But yes, Terran would be buffed with this patch. And nerfed. You know, it's not a one-dimensional relationship. SC2 isn't one number that you increase or decrease with a patch, it's a vector of many of them. Edit: But that's probably too much for you. I'd rather post something on your level: uaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggaios jdpoi afhiophs afkj ashl h l as You're the one not getting it. You're considering an individual buff and saying "look, they do buff Terran!" when you have to analyze the patch at a whole. You could still heavily weaken a race with 8 buffs and a single nerf. No you don't have to analyize it at a whole. Because when you buff banshees and nerf hellbats you buff banshee-based playstyles. The outcome may be weaker in certain scenarios. It may be weaker statistically speaking as a whole. But it's still a buff in other scenarios. That's why you can't consider it as a whole. You simply cannot say the banshee cloaking cost reduction is not a buff to Terran. I am not disputing the fact the Cloak Banshee cost reduction was a Terran buff. I am saying the combination of the Cloak Banshee cost reduction and the Hellbat damage decrease resulted in Terran being weakened; thus the patch was a Terran nerf. Arguing that Blizzard isn't afraid to buff Terran because they offer derisory compensations when demolishing entire parts of the Terran gameplay makes little sense. And I explicitly stated: 1 buff, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.9#Balance_Updatewhich should give you the idea that I'm counting each of them on it's own in the specific argumentation which was about listing all the buffs Terran has received since WoL. It is very, very clear that I was not arguing that Terran has become stronger through 2.0.9 BU, but that there has been a change that was a buff. Unless you explicitly don't want to see it that way, but then you are just arguing something else which has nothing to do with what I was saying. Since what you are arguing is not counting buffs but evaluating their impact in retrospect. Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 20:09 ZenithM wrote:On November 13 2013 19:20 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:04 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:53 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 18:49 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:14 larse wrote:On November 13 2013 18:06 Sapphire.lux wrote:Yeah, i heard that before. The result was mech becoming worse then it has ever been. Yeah, that's just some PR stuff. They are extremely reluctant to make any Terran buff. 2014 = 2012 where Terran goes down. 2 buffs, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.12#Balance_Update1 buff, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.9#Balance_Updatethen from the beta we have: Medivac buff Raven buff(s) Yamato Canon buff Thor buff Siege Tank Upgrade removed Reaper buff Mech Weapon buff part 1 might be missing something... gonna keep in mind that being "extremly reluctant to make any Terran buff" means that they changed everything that is underused in some way (minus ghosts). Yeah, because the Cloak buff totally compensated the Hellbat nerf in TvP/Z, right? Your digital argument is so pointless. Read what I respond to.... He said "any Terran buff". Which gets disproven by... well, showing any Terran buff. Imaginary patch: Marines' dps decreased by 30% Hellions' hit points increased by 5 → Big J's comment: "Terran has been buffed." Strong logic at work here. you don't get what I was responding to, do you? But yes, Terran would be buffed with this patch. And nerfed. You know, it's not a one-dimensional relationship. SC2 isn't one number that you increase or decrease with a patch, it's a vector of many of them. Edit: But that's probably too much for you. I'd rather post something on your level: uaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggaios jdpoi afhiophs afkj ashl h l as I don't see why you shouldn't evaluate the patch with a one-dimension variable. Take the winrate in TvZ (at the highest level of course, not on ladder) for example. If it decreases after the patch, that will have been a nerf, if it increases, that will have been a buff. It's certainly simple and not representative of how a matchup is played, but that's not unreasonable. No need to pull out fancy math notations and be rude to others, that doesn't make you look smarter. Of course you can evaluate it with a one dimensional variable. But I did not mean to evaluate patches but to list buffs. And I don't see why on a somewhat complete list off Terran buffs in HotS I wouldn't be allowed to list decreased cloak costs, since making such a list has nothing to do with wether it took place at the same time with a nerf (hellbats in this case). But also, if you evaluate such patches with a one-dimensional variable keep in mind that it defies the whole purpose of patches like this one, which should increase the amount of playable styles (so changes that works on certain dimensions of such a balance-vector, but not on others) and is therefore less acurate at describing the purpose/results. I know it doesn't make me look smarter, though, I don't think it makes me look dumber than the strawman I was responding to. Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 21:06 vthree wrote:
Just throwing an idea out there.
How would people feel about a cost reduction in static defense for terran (bunkers, turrets).
It would help with stuff like proxy oracles, blink all-ins and muta backstabs (the bane of tank/marine). It likely won't really make 11-11s, bunker/reaper stronger since the build time is more of the issue in those scenario and turrets are for defense. Would make mech more viable and less banshee just ending games in TvT. remove the ebay requirement. Also helps Mech, since Mech doesn't really need an ebay apart from the ability to build turrets.
Are you for real?
Lets say we remove damage from Marines (a nerf) and give Ebays +10 health (a buff) then Terran got even in the patch? Thats logical...
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On November 13 2013 14:51 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 14:37 NKexquisite wrote:
We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone.
More interesting? Was the bio/mine micro and splitting not interesting and fun to watch vs zerg? How could it get more fun/interesting? I find his reasoning to be poor and not quite forthcoming. Two major reasons: 1) Bio/mine can be the most amazing thing in the world to watch but people will grow tired of it if its literally the only strategy you can do. A strategy game should have room for options and strategy instead of just being a micro competition where both sides know exactly what their opponent is doing. 2) Due to how widow mines work (high supply cost, high mobility) it would be crazy for a terran to play a passive game with them and let the zerg get the ultra/infestor comp. This makes point 1 even worse, because not only is terran making the same units every game they are also forced to play a very aggressive game with them. Variety is the spice of life, basically.
Which is why nerfing something is a horrible idea. In 6-12 months, people are going to be complaining about how Bio/Tank/WM is too boring and needs a change. This is going to continue until we get units that have huge micro ceilings, and great potential (aka some of Depth of Micro changes).
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On November 13 2013 22:26 Glorfindel! wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 21:50 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:42 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:31 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:25 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:20 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:04 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:53 TheDwf wrote:Yeah, because the Cloak buff totally compensated the Hellbat nerf in TvP/Z, right? Your digital argument is so pointless. Read what I respond to.... He said "any Terran buff". Which gets disproven by... well, showing any Terran buff. Imaginary patch: Marines' dps decreased by 30% Hellions' hit points increased by 5 → Big J's comment: "Terran has been buffed." Strong logic at work here. you don't get what I was responding to, do you? But yes, Terran would be buffed with this patch. And nerfed. You know, it's not a one-dimensional relationship. SC2 isn't one number that you increase or decrease with a patch, it's a vector of many of them. Edit: But that's probably too much for you. I'd rather post something on your level: uaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggaios jdpoi afhiophs afkj ashl h l as You're the one not getting it. You're considering an individual buff and saying "look, they do buff Terran!" when you have to analyze the patch at a whole. You could still heavily weaken a race with 8 buffs and a single nerf. No you don't have to analyize it at a whole. Because when you buff banshees and nerf hellbats you buff banshee-based playstyles. The outcome may be weaker in certain scenarios. It may be weaker statistically speaking as a whole. But it's still a buff in other scenarios. That's why you can't consider it as a whole. You simply cannot say the banshee cloaking cost reduction is not a buff to Terran. I am not disputing the fact the Cloak Banshee cost reduction was a Terran buff. I am saying the combination of the Cloak Banshee cost reduction and the Hellbat damage decrease resulted in Terran being weakened; thus the patch was a Terran nerf. Arguing that Blizzard isn't afraid to buff Terran because they offer derisory compensations when demolishing entire parts of the Terran gameplay makes little sense. And I explicitly stated: 1 buff, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.9#Balance_Updatewhich should give you the idea that I'm counting each of them on it's own in the specific argumentation which was about listing all the buffs Terran has received since WoL. It is very, very clear that I was not arguing that Terran has become stronger through 2.0.9 BU, but that there has been a change that was a buff. Unless you explicitly don't want to see it that way, but then you are just arguing something else which has nothing to do with what I was saying. Since what you are arguing is not counting buffs but evaluating their impact in retrospect. On November 13 2013 20:09 ZenithM wrote:On November 13 2013 19:20 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:04 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:53 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 18:49 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:14 larse wrote:On November 13 2013 18:06 Sapphire.lux wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, i heard that before. The result was mech becoming worse then it has ever been. Yeah, that's just some PR stuff. They are extremely reluctant to make any Terran buff. 2014 = 2012 where Terran goes down. 2 buffs, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.12#Balance_Update1 buff, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.9#Balance_Updatethen from the beta we have: Medivac buff Raven buff(s) Yamato Canon buff Thor buff Siege Tank Upgrade removed Reaper buff Mech Weapon buff part 1 might be missing something... gonna keep in mind that being "extremly reluctant to make any Terran buff" means that they changed everything that is underused in some way (minus ghosts). Yeah, because the Cloak buff totally compensated the Hellbat nerf in TvP/Z, right? Your digital argument is so pointless. Read what I respond to.... He said "any Terran buff". Which gets disproven by... well, showing any Terran buff. Imaginary patch: Marines' dps decreased by 30% Hellions' hit points increased by 5 → Big J's comment: "Terran has been buffed." Strong logic at work here. you don't get what I was responding to, do you? But yes, Terran would be buffed with this patch. And nerfed. You know, it's not a one-dimensional relationship. SC2 isn't one number that you increase or decrease with a patch, it's a vector of many of them. Edit: But that's probably too much for you. I'd rather post something on your level: uaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggaios jdpoi afhiophs afkj ashl h l as I don't see why you shouldn't evaluate the patch with a one-dimension variable. Take the winrate in TvZ (at the highest level of course, not on ladder) for example. If it decreases after the patch, that will have been a nerf, if it increases, that will have been a buff. It's certainly simple and not representative of how a matchup is played, but that's not unreasonable. No need to pull out fancy math notations and be rude to others, that doesn't make you look smarter. Of course you can evaluate it with a one dimensional variable. But I did not mean to evaluate patches but to list buffs. And I don't see why on a somewhat complete list off Terran buffs in HotS I wouldn't be allowed to list decreased cloak costs, since making such a list has nothing to do with wether it took place at the same time with a nerf (hellbats in this case). But also, if you evaluate such patches with a one-dimensional variable keep in mind that it defies the whole purpose of patches like this one, which should increase the amount of playable styles (so changes that works on certain dimensions of such a balance-vector, but not on others) and is therefore less acurate at describing the purpose/results. I know it doesn't make me look smarter, though, I don't think it makes me look dumber than the strawman I was responding to. On November 13 2013 21:06 vthree wrote:
Just throwing an idea out there.
How would people feel about a cost reduction in static defense for terran (bunkers, turrets).
It would help with stuff like proxy oracles, blink all-ins and muta backstabs (the bane of tank/marine). It likely won't really make 11-11s, bunker/reaper stronger since the build time is more of the issue in those scenario and turrets are for defense. Would make mech more viable and less banshee just ending games in TvT. remove the ebay requirement. Also helps Mech, since Mech doesn't really need an ebay apart from the ability to build turrets. Are you for real? Lets say we remove damage from Marines (a nerf) and give Ebays +10 health (a buff) then Terran got even in the patch? Thats logical...
No, didn't say, made myself very clear that none of those comments have been about evaluating an overall outcome. In fact that was what half of the quoted post was about. Time to reread it.
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On November 13 2013 22:19 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 22:05 Snusmumriken wrote:On November 13 2013 21:50 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:42 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:31 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:25 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:20 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:04 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:53 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, because the Cloak buff totally compensated the Hellbat nerf in TvP/Z, right? Your digital argument is so pointless. Read what I respond to.... He said "any Terran buff". Which gets disproven by... well, showing any Terran buff. Imaginary patch: Marines' dps decreased by 30% Hellions' hit points increased by 5 → Big J's comment: "Terran has been buffed." Strong logic at work here. you don't get what I was responding to, do you? But yes, Terran would be buffed with this patch. And nerfed. You know, it's not a one-dimensional relationship. SC2 isn't one number that you increase or decrease with a patch, it's a vector of many of them. Edit: But that's probably too much for you. I'd rather post something on your level: uaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggaios jdpoi afhiophs afkj ashl h l as You're the one not getting it. You're considering an individual buff and saying "look, they do buff Terran!" when you have to analyze the patch at a whole. You could still heavily weaken a race with 8 buffs and a single nerf. No you don't have to analyize it at a whole. Because when you buff banshees and nerf hellbats you buff banshee-based playstyles. The outcome may be weaker in certain scenarios. It may be weaker statistically speaking as a whole. But it's still a buff in other scenarios. That's why you can't consider it as a whole. You simply cannot say the banshee cloaking cost reduction is not a buff to Terran. I am not disputing the fact the Cloak Banshee cost reduction was a Terran buff. I am saying the combination of the Cloak Banshee cost reduction and the Hellbat damage decrease resulted in Terran being weakened; thus the patch was a Terran nerf. Arguing that Blizzard isn't afraid to buff Terran because they offer derisory compensations when demolishing entire parts of the Terran gameplay makes little sense. And I explicitly stated: 1 buff, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.9#Balance_Updatewhich should give you the idea that I'm counting each of them on it's own in the specific argumentation which was about listing all the buffs Terran has received since WoL. It is very, very clear that I was not arguing that Terran has become stronger through 2.0.9 BU, but that there has been a change that was a buff. Unless you explicitly don't want to see it that way, but then you are just arguing something else which has nothing to do with what I was saying. Since what you are arguing is not counting buffs but evaluating their impact in retrospect. On November 13 2013 20:09 ZenithM wrote:On November 13 2013 19:20 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 19:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 19:04 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:53 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 18:49 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 18:14 larse wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, that's just some PR stuff. They are extremely reluctant to make any Terran buff.
2014 = 2012 where Terran goes down. 2 buffs, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.12#Balance_Update1 buff, 1 nerf here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_2.0.9#Balance_Updatethen from the beta we have: Medivac buff Raven buff(s) Yamato Canon buff Thor buff Siege Tank Upgrade removed Reaper buff Mech Weapon buff part 1 might be missing something... gonna keep in mind that being "extremly reluctant to make any Terran buff" means that they changed everything that is underused in some way (minus ghosts). Yeah, because the Cloak buff totally compensated the Hellbat nerf in TvP/Z, right? Your digital argument is so pointless. Read what I respond to.... He said "any Terran buff". Which gets disproven by... well, showing any Terran buff. Imaginary patch: Marines' dps decreased by 30% Hellions' hit points increased by 5 → Big J's comment: "Terran has been buffed." Strong logic at work here. you don't get what I was responding to, do you? But yes, Terran would be buffed with this patch. And nerfed. You know, it's not a one-dimensional relationship. SC2 isn't one number that you increase or decrease with a patch, it's a vector of many of them. Edit: But that's probably too much for you. I'd rather post something on your level: uaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggaios jdpoi afhiophs afkj ashl h l as I don't see why you shouldn't evaluate the patch with a one-dimension variable. Take the winrate in TvZ (at the highest level of course, not on ladder) for example. If it decreases after the patch, that will have been a nerf, if it increases, that will have been a buff. It's certainly simple and not representative of how a matchup is played, but that's not unreasonable. No need to pull out fancy math notations and be rude to others, that doesn't make you look smarter. Of course you can evaluate it with a one dimensional variable. But I did not mean to evaluate patches but to list buffs. And I don't see why on a somewhat complete list off Terran buffs in HotS I wouldn't be allowed to list decreased cloak costs, since making such a list has nothing to do with wether it took place at the same time with a nerf (hellbats in this case). But also, if you evaluate such patches with a one-dimensional variable keep in mind that it defies the whole purpose of patches like this one, which should increase the amount of playable styles (so changes that works on certain dimensions of such a balance-vector, but not on others) and is therefore less acurate at describing the purpose/results. I know it doesn't make me look smarter, though, I don't think it makes me look dumber than the strawman I was responding to. On November 13 2013 21:06 vthree wrote:
Just throwing an idea out there.
How would people feel about a cost reduction in static defense for terran (bunkers, turrets).
It would help with stuff like proxy oracles, blink all-ins and muta backstabs (the bane of tank/marine). It likely won't really make 11-11s, bunker/reaper stronger since the build time is more of the issue in those scenario and turrets are for defense. Would make mech more viable and less banshee just ending games in TvT. remove the ebay requirement. Also helps Mech, since Mech doesn't really need an ebay apart from the ability to build turrets. so why should we care about anything you say? Nobody gives a shit about a definition of the word "race buff", its the impact on the race as a whole that we care about. In your world removing the marines while giving the medivac more health is simply "a buff and a nerf". Well whoop di do, why should we care about such flawed reasoning? The underlying theme of nerfing something that was imbalanced months ago but now is completetely balanced while giving a tiny tiny miniscule buff to something else with the goal of "creating diversity" is completely absurd. read what I responded to before TheDwf's strawmened what I wrote. What I was responding to was: So you are either interpreting it as I do, which means he is plainly wrong since there have been buffs. Or you are interpreting it as you do and there is "no increase in power of Terran", in which case I guess we are on the same side since we don't think there need to be changes (yes, the mine nerf is unnecessary in my opinion) and we both think that his comment makes no sense. Since there does not need to be a "increase in power of Terran".
Were not on the same side. I think there needs to be changes for sure, I simply have a brain and realize that you dont create more diversity by removing the viability of a perfectly balanced approach to the game. You create less diversity, EVEN if you compensate in another area, which they didnt with this slap in the face of a tank"buff". This isnt rocket science, in fact you have to be a complete buffon not to realize it. But then again im talking about a guy whos been saying he wants mech viable for over 2 years all while making it less viable, a guy who couldnt even fashion a tank with a functioning tracking-turret, all while saying the game should be intuivive to casuals, because nothing screams intuitive like a tank who behaves NOTHING like they do in real life right? In conclusion a guy who either lies through his teeth or a guy whos utterly and incomprehensibly incompetent.
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EPT
