EPTHotS Balance Update - November 11 - Page 56
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Salient
United States876 Posts
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fighter2_40
United States420 Posts
On November 14 2013 00:20 Salient wrote: I think it would be beneficial to the community if a very detail oriented Terran player would post a guide about gas counting with the SCV scout. This is a common practice in masters league. Basically, you click on the assimilator to see how much has been mined in order to know whether your opponent is probably just getting a fast mothership core or whether he has mined enough gas for something like oracles or DTs (which can both be countered with 1-2 turrets). This is not an easy skill to learn on your own. But it is easy to do if someone else does all the hard work by writing a guide to explain what different amounts of gas mined usually indicate. Protoss and Zerg players do the same sort of gas counting to check off strategies. But it doesn't seem as common for Terrans to use this technique (probably because Terrans have easier early scouting tools than the other races thanks to reapers and scans). It could be a good TL article for an ambitious staff member. I disagree. The gas cost of a MSCore is the same as the cost of a robo or stargate or a twilight council for that matter. Also now that dark shrine has been reduced in gas count, toss can still go DT off the same gas opening as MScore expand into robo as far as I know. Gas counting has been a huge deal vs zerg to know their speed timing because that's basically the only thing they can do with their first 100 gas that is worthwhile. Gas counting is also better vs terran because you know if they went gas before rax or 12-12 vs 12-13. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 14 2013 00:20 Salient wrote: I think it would be beneficial to the community if a very detail oriented Terran player would post a guide about gas counting with the SCV scout. This is a common practice in masters league. Basically, you click on the assimilator to see how much has been mined in order to know whether your opponent is probably just getting a fast mothership core or whether he has mined enough gas for something like oracles or DTs (which can both be countered with 1-2 turrets). This is not an easy skill to learn on your own. But it is easy to do if someone else does all the hard work by writing a guide to explain what different amounts of gas mined usually indicate. Protoss and Zerg players do the same sort of gas counting to check off strategies. But it doesn't seem as common for Terrans to use this technique (probably because Terrans have easier early scouting tools than the other races thanks to reapers and scans). It could be a good TL article for an ambitious staff member. Gas mined means absolutely nothing. You can proxy Oracle with 2/3 at each gas until your start the Stargate. In many other cases, the SCV is not there anymore to see if Protoss switches (back) to 2/3 or 3/3. The gas mined can be banked on purpose (for mindgames or later tech), be locked in a Sentry, etc. This is not how you mainly determine if Protoss is pulling a dirty trick or not, and it will certainly not tell you if the proxied building is a Council, a Council + Dark shrine, a Stargate or a Robotics. | ||
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SaroVati
Canada280 Posts
On November 14 2013 00:25 fighter2_40 wrote: I disagree. The gas cost of a MSCore is the same as the cost of a robo or stargate or a twilight council for that matter. Also now that dark shrine has been reduced in gas count, toss can still go DT off the same gas opening as MScore expand into robo as far as I know. Gas counting has been a huge deal vs zerg to know their speed timing because that's basically the only thing they can do with their first 100 gas that is worthwhile. Gas counting is also better vs terran because you know if they went gas before rax or 12-12 vs 12-13. Stargate does not cost the same gas amount as the other 3. Also, you can tell if a MSC is building or not lol. Not to be disrespectful, but you are telling me that the difference for a terran going 12/12 vs 12/13 is a bigger deal than knowing if a protoss is choosing one of his tech paths? I can't speak directly to the terran point of view TvP, but in PvP you bet your balls I check both assimilators of protoss when I scout their base. And it 90% of the time tells me roughly what builds my opponent can do. If that isn't a reliable enough way to narrow down builds without actually SEEING the specific tech structure/army composition, I don't know what is. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
... is completely untrue. Instead of setting apart players—which, as a matter of fact, wasn't needed at all since you could already clearly see the difference—every Protoss with decent micro will be able to be extremely annoying with an Oracle while still keeping it alive. In short, they lowered the skill floor much more than they raised the skill cap. The ultimate failure I completely disagree. I watch a ton of pro-level Protoss play, and keeping Oracles alive throughout the majority of the game while remaining active with them out on the map virtually never happens. Not with sOs, not with Hero, not with Dear or Rain or PartinG or any other top protoss. They just weren't fast enough for the "continuously dart in to deal a small amount of damage, then get out without taking too much damage" playstyle to be viable--much like Warp Prisms prior to getting their various buffs (first a big shield buff late in WoL, then a speed buff in the HotS beta), pre-patch Oracles just weren't that good at harass when the opponent wasn't caught unawares. When Warp Prisms were buffed, lots of people whined because they saw it as "lowering the skill ceiling." But in fact, it has had the exact opposite effect. Lousy players still lose prisms all the time, or fail to get any real value of them. But good players can take advantage of their improved speed and mobility to stay constantly active with them and get more value throughout the game. Prism play went from being a seldom-seen gimmick to one of the standard factors that separates the merely good from the genuinely great. This Oracle buff is going to do basically nothing for lousy players who simply rely on surprise, because the distance that Proxy Oracles have to travel to get to a mineral line is already quite short--reducing the travel time by about 30%, as this buff will do, is the difference between the Oracle arriving in 15 seconds, and arriving in 10 seconds, i.e. completely meaningless. But for players with the apm and multitask skills to stay constantly active with the Oracle without letting their macro slip, I anticipate that the unit will become far more rewarding. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
On November 14 2013 00:25 fighter2_40 wrote: I disagree. The gas cost of a MSCore is the same as the cost of a robo or stargate or a twilight council for that matter. Also now that dark shrine has been reduced in gas count, toss can still go DT off the same gas opening as MScore expand into robo as far as I know. Gas counting has been a huge deal vs zerg to know their speed timing because that's basically the only thing they can do with their first 100 gas that is worthwhile. Gas counting is also better vs terran because you know if they went gas before rax or 12-12 vs 12-13. Two assimilators with 3 in each before cyber core finishes is way more gas than you need for MSC or even for a blink opening. Two assimilators with 2 in each is more likely an expand or blink play. It is probably an expand if he stays with only 4 total probes when the Cyber Core finishes. However, it is more likely blink or a non cheesy stargate play if he adds the 5th and 6th probes at that time. The reason gas counting would be good is that it would prevent the opponent from tricking you by momentarily changing the number of gas miners for a second while your scout runs by. | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On November 14 2013 00:12 Salient wrote: Maru won WCS Korea after the hellbat nerf Polt won WCS AM twice after the hellbat nerf MMA won WCS EU after the hellbat nerf Bomber won the WCS Sesaon 2 finals after the hellbat nerf http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_StarCraft_II_World_Championship_Series Salient used the power of fact!! Terrifying weapon in the internet  | ||
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
On November 14 2013 00:47 RaFox17 wrote: Salient used the power of fact!! Terrifying weapon in the internet My point was that terran is balanced since hellbat nerf and even though some terrans won after the nerf that doesn't mean that terran requires any more nerfs. They are doing the exact same thing as in WoL... after some helion nerfs for TvZ the matchup showed very good balance. Then they decided to buff queen range +2. We all know how that turned out. My point was that they should nerf only obvious imbalances and interfere with the game less, give it time do develop by itself.If you influence the game directly with patches every 2-3 months, how can you trust any data you gather about balance? | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5224 Posts
On November 14 2013 01:04 Qwerty85 wrote: My point was that terran is balanced since hellbat nerf and even though some terrans won after the nerf that doesn't mean that terran requires any more nerfs. They are doing the exact same thing as in WoL... after some helion nerfs for TvZ the matchup showed very good balance. Then they decided to buff queen range +2. We all know how that turned out. My point was that they should nerf only obvious imbalances and interfere with the game less, give it time do develop by itself.If you influence the game directly with patches every 2-3 months, how can you trust any data you gather about balance? The problem wasn't balance. SC2 is probably at the most balanced point it has ever been. The problem is that the game is getting stale and a lot of units are going unused due to game design. In this case, Widow Mines are terrible to watch and rendered Tanks - the iconic Starcraft unit - totally useless in ZvT, where they used to be a mainstay. Damage wise, mines do almost everything Tanks can do (the exception being they that their missile don't have huge range), and do it cheaper, while also being able to kill flocks of Muta's and forcing gas into Overseers. Marine/Tank/Medivac is so much more exciting than Marine/Marauder/Medivac/Mine. The problem is with their decision to make this change, is that Blizzard forgot they introduced the Viper. Siege Tanks are dead unless they change the Viper. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12043 Posts
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never_Nal
Costa Rica676 Posts
Maybe terran expected to see a Mama Core change, or something different to adress the fact that it's too hard to punish protoss players. The fact is the matchup didin't even change that much, Terran needs to harras very hard in order to win in almost every matchup, that's the real strength of the Bio Terran IMO. I play Terran myself and TvP is hard, but no imbalanced, if Taeja wins or Polt wins, Why can't I? | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5224 Posts
On November 14 2013 01:14 Qikz wrote: I still think they should've made Blinding Cloud just Dark Swarm, since then it'd actually counter bio. Agreed (Hellion and Hellbats should not be affected though, and the AOE would need a reduction). Or Blinding Cloud needs to only effect Bio units, or it needs to reduce range by a set amount (4) so that won't totally nullify Siege Tanks in battles. Obviously Blinding Cloud is increasing effective against units that have greater range, but it is most effective again Siege Tanks, which have three strikes against them: #1 The longest range #2 Inability to quickly move out of the cloud #3 Inability to hit units in melee range | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
On November 14 2013 00:47 RaFox17 wrote: Salient used the power of fact!! Terrifying weapon in the internet HOW DARE YOU come in here, and pollute the crying circlejerk with your facts and your reason. It's blasphemy I say! Honestly, I played a few games of Banshee Mech and I thought it felt really cool and a little stronger than before. I'm only diamond Toss and platinum Terran though, so you can take that with a grain of salt. Notes: - Hellbat/Tank/Banshee is surprisingly effective in TvP midgame. Archons are still a bitch, but it rips through Zealot/Immortal pushes really easily. - I don't know why I forgot about blueflame being so good. It's really good. - Blueflame Hellions are still awesome. - Hellion/Banshee is still a very fun comp | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
On November 14 2013 01:17 BronzeKnee wrote: Agreed (Hellion and Hellbats should not be affected though, and the AOE would need a reduction). Or Blinding Cloud needs to only effect Bio units, or it needs to reduce range by a set amount (4) so that won't totally nullify Siege Tanks in battles. Obviously Blinding Cloud is increasing effective against units that have greater range, but it is most effective again Siege Tanks, which have three strikes against them: #1 The longest range #2 Inability to quickly move out of the cloud #3 Inability to hit units in melee range Maybe a good change would be to let scans nullify the effect of blinding cloud (at least for mech units). | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 14 2013 01:10 BronzeKnee wrote: In this case, Widow Mines are terrible to watch and rendered Tanks - the iconic Starcraft unit - totally useless in ZvT, where they used to be a mainstay. Damage wise, mines do almost everything Tanks can do (the exception being they that their missile don't have huge range), and do it cheaper, while also being able to kill flocks of Muta's and forcing gas into Overseers. Marine/Tank/Medivac is so much more exciting than Marine/Marauder/Medivac/Mine. The problem is with their decision to make this change, is that Blizzard forgot they introduced the Viper. Siege Tanks are dead unless they change the Viper. Mines are not responsible for the disparition of the Tank in TvZ, the combination of the Queen patch (way more creep on the map) + new mutas + new ultras + Vipers is (not to mention wide open maps, or the fact Zergs learnt to flank, unlike in 2011). Mines simply filled the gap, they did not create it. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9319 Posts
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Swiipii
2195 Posts
On November 14 2013 01:23 Salient wrote: Maybe a good change would be to let scans nullify the effect of blinding cloud (at least for mech units). lol terrible idea, you might aswell delete the viper. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 14 2013 01:35 awesomoecalypse wrote: I'd like to see Blinding Cloud's radius increased, but its effect changed to a flat range reduction of 5. That would actually be a buff vs. bio, while nerfing it somewhat vs mech (though not to the point of uselessness--taking siege tanks down from 13 range to 8 would still be pretty strong, and in many cases would force them to unsiege and move forward to get in range). yeah. Or even just do the nerf part of it to begin with (since blinding cloud is hardly played outside of countering tanks). The other one is optional to give zerg more options as well. | ||
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