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On November 13 2013 22:31 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 14:51 Bagi wrote:On November 13 2013 14:37 NKexquisite wrote:
We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone.
More interesting? Was the bio/mine micro and splitting not interesting and fun to watch vs zerg? How could it get more fun/interesting? I find his reasoning to be poor and not quite forthcoming. Two major reasons: 1) Bio/mine can be the most amazing thing in the world to watch but people will grow tired of it if its literally the only strategy you can do. A strategy game should have room for options and strategy instead of just being a micro competition where both sides know exactly what their opponent is doing. 2) Due to how widow mines work (high supply cost, high mobility) it would be crazy for a terran to play a passive game with them and let the zerg get the ultra/infestor comp. This makes point 1 even worse, because not only is terran making the same units every game they are also forced to play a very aggressive game with them. Variety is the spice of life, basically. Which is why nerfing something is a horrible idea. In 6-12 months, people are going to be complaining about how Bio/Tank/WM is too boring and needs a change. This is going to continue until we get units that have huge micro ceilings, and great potential (aka some of Depth of Micro changes).
People won't be complaining about bio/tank/mine being boring in a loooong time because its not going to happen with just these changes.
Also I don't understand your micro conclusion and its relevance to stale metagames, I don't think the situation is quite as clear as "imitate BW or bust".
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On November 13 2013 22:34 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 22:31 Chaggi wrote:On November 13 2013 14:51 Bagi wrote:On November 13 2013 14:37 NKexquisite wrote:
We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone.
More interesting? Was the bio/mine micro and splitting not interesting and fun to watch vs zerg? How could it get more fun/interesting? I find his reasoning to be poor and not quite forthcoming. Two major reasons: 1) Bio/mine can be the most amazing thing in the world to watch but people will grow tired of it if its literally the only strategy you can do. A strategy game should have room for options and strategy instead of just being a micro competition where both sides know exactly what their opponent is doing. 2) Due to how widow mines work (high supply cost, high mobility) it would be crazy for a terran to play a passive game with them and let the zerg get the ultra/infestor comp. This makes point 1 even worse, because not only is terran making the same units every game they are also forced to play a very aggressive game with them. Variety is the spice of life, basically. Which is why nerfing something is a horrible idea. In 6-12 months, people are going to be complaining about how Bio/Tank/WM is too boring and needs a change. This is going to continue until we get units that have huge micro ceilings, and great potential (aka some of Depth of Micro changes). People won't be complaining about bio/tank/mine being boring in a loooong time because its not going to happen with just these changes.
Well we don't know yet, but the fact is there. If you're nerfing a style, you're limiting the choices that someone has. Look at ZvZ for example. HoTS started out with giant muta wars, which was subsequently killed by spore buffs, which lead to everyone going a roach style. I know that's an over-simplification, but that's the general gist of it. Now look at TvT, where you have multiple styles that work, marine/tank, pure bio, and mech. Sure, they all end up transitioning into Air if the game goes on long enough but some of the best TvT games are mech vs bio where bio outexpands the meching player and trades ineffectively, but keeps the tank # down. That's how you make for really awesome games. While TvZ never had the diversity, it made up for it in constant action. So if they nerf the WM (and it's a pretty substantial nerf) to the point where Bio/Mine has no place in top level play - where Bio/Tank/Mine is the only thing that's viable, then who's not going to get tired of that? It's the same shit again and again and again.
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On November 13 2013 22:39 Chaggi wrote:
So if they nerf the WM (and it's a pretty substantial nerf) to the point where Bio/Mine has no place in top level play - where Bio/Tank/Mine is the only thing that's viable, then who's not going to get tired of that? It's the same shit again and again and again.
Ideally you nerf and buff things to a point where multiple things are viable, not just one only thing.
Kinda like in mid-WOL where it was marine/tank, mech or even pure bio until the infestor/BL was discovered and made a mess of everything.
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Thx Blizzard, i was trying hard to master the Terran race ... but finally, u got me going crazy, what kinda of mindblowing shit is on this patch included ... i change to protoss, it feels so relaxed to play a game ... no stress, ezpz and very strong units, which can be used in diffrent variations ... Terran will be decimated to Marines/Maurauder/Medivacs for Bio play and Mech have to be a new option ... but i m not sure if it works ... mech is so weak if you have to go offensive ... so i don't want to have 50+min turtle matches against protoss&/zerg ... wtf
thx blizzard, especially DK for this s.hit.
Example: TvZ --> Zerg which only a move into Bio/Mine against a average gold Terran (no good marine split) is able to win, even if there are WM
after Patch. Zerg which only a move, will win all the time against even skilled terrans --> also the winrates were even at the End of last season ?? As Terran u always have to outplay your opponent, even games would end in a loss ... it was so, and will be so even stronger than before ... i take a least one season off and play Protoss ...
gg hf for all the brave Terrans this season, stay strong, i have no nerves left
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On November 13 2013 22:34 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 22:31 Chaggi wrote:On November 13 2013 14:51 Bagi wrote:On November 13 2013 14:37 NKexquisite wrote:
We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone.
More interesting? Was the bio/mine micro and splitting not interesting and fun to watch vs zerg? How could it get more fun/interesting? I find his reasoning to be poor and not quite forthcoming. Two major reasons: 1) Bio/mine can be the most amazing thing in the world to watch but people will grow tired of it if its literally the only strategy you can do. A strategy game should have room for options and strategy instead of just being a micro competition where both sides know exactly what their opponent is doing. 2) Due to how widow mines work (high supply cost, high mobility) it would be crazy for a terran to play a passive game with them and let the zerg get the ultra/infestor comp. This makes point 1 even worse, because not only is terran making the same units every game they are also forced to play a very aggressive game with them. Variety is the spice of life, basically. Which is why nerfing something is a horrible idea. In 6-12 months, people are going to be complaining about how Bio/Tank/WM is too boring and needs a change. This is going to continue until we get units that have huge micro ceilings, and great potential (aka some of Depth of Micro changes). Also I don't understand your micro conclusion and its relevance to stale metagames, I don't think the situation is quite as clear as "imitate BW or bust".
I don't mean imitate BW or bust. That's not what I mean and if anyone at Blizzard thinks that way after watching Depths of Micro video, they really have it wrong. BW just does it very well.
When you watch different players play, what separates them is what types of units they favor and how they control it. If you watch Innovation during his prime, his TvZ bio/mine was literally the best, beautiful to watch. He didn't drop very much cause he didn't need to. If you watch players like Gumiho or MMA, they were famous for stressing the multi-tasking of their opponents which caused for completely different games than a player like Innovation who does massive parade pushes. It's not like Innovation doesn't drop, but his play isn't focused on it. If we take those a step further and show that units are microable, that means they can scale up due to skill. Just as something as simple as marine micro
Bronze - Gold: no micro, die in clumps to blings
Plat - Diamond: some micro, probably doesn't pay attention and die to a lot of banelings but still get some good engagements
Master: decent micro, some good engagements, others not
GM: great micro, won't lose much to banelings unless a great engagement by Zerg/flanks
Pros: *takes more steps further*
If you apply that to a variety of units like if you were somehow able to micro zealots like you're able to micro bio, you can many more types of engagements that create variety by itself. You set apart players based on skill that you can literally see and ultimately you have the best players winning games on a more consistent basis. Essentially, you're giving the player an entire toolbox to work with, rather than forcing them to use some tools. IMO, it's very readily seen in TvP of Maru when he goes mass marine/marauder/medivac while not going ghosts/viking and is able to do amazing things that you'd never really see in any "standard" TvP game because of his micro.
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On November 13 2013 22:52 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 22:39 Chaggi wrote:
So if they nerf the WM (and it's a pretty substantial nerf) to the point where Bio/Mine has no place in top level play - where Bio/Tank/Mine is the only thing that's viable, then who's not going to get tired of that? It's the same shit again and again and again. Ideally you nerf and buff things to a point where multiple things are viable, not just one only thing. Kinda like in mid-WOL where it was marine/tank, mech or even pure bio until the infestor/BL was discovered and made a mess of everything.
Yes, nerf and buff things where multiple things are viable, but because Blizzard is nerfing something that has already been balanced at the top level for months, it's absolutely not needed.
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And this is partially why I'm really pissed off about the oracle buff for Protoss. The MU had absolutely no problems in terms of balance win/rates. Early game was already stale for Terran because the inability to put pressure with any type of build. Oracles were already a must prepare for or else you die type of build, but you could defend it with a turret and some well placed marines (and it's super important to note that just cause an oracle isn't killing SCVs, doesn't mean it's not a threat to the Terran), but keeping that oracle alive through the mid/late game really took some skill. It meant not flying it through stupid things. Now they have this speed buff which anyone is able to keep it alive. If you have a pulse, that thing is going to live. The proxy all in's will hit faster, and it's ultimately going to be kept alive for longer. That's why it's so dumb from a Terran perspective. And what did they say their goal was for the oracle with this buff?
"to add late game viability" or some crap like that, except any good Protoss that really wanted to keep that thing alive, already was. Now everyone can keep it alive.
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The widow mine nerf wasn't needed at all, cause zerg playes learned how to play against it. I'm ok with the other changes.
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It seems that Blizzard did not care about the really bad performance of terran players at blizzcon whatsoever. i.e. TvZ; What is gonna do the terran player when the zerg one uses mass muta? Oh yeah I know, build tanks because they got 'buffed'. Most of the changes are OK but the oracle and WM ones OMG... What the heck they are thinking?!
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On November 13 2013 23:00 Chaggi wrote:
And what did they say their goal was for the oracle with this buff?
"to add late game viability" or some crap like that, except any good Protoss that really wanted to keep that thing alive, already was. Now everyone can keep it alive.
The most hilarious part is how this...
[David Kim's justification]
the main reason is that we’d like the difference between someone who’s amazing with Oracle micro to be able to keep them alive the whole game to get the most out of them, whereas lesser skilled players won’t get as much out of this change.
... is completely untrue. Instead of setting apart players—which, as a matter of fact, wasn't needed at all since you could already clearly see the difference—every Protoss with decent micro will be able to be extremely annoying with an Oracle while still keeping it alive. In short, they lowered the skill floor much more than they raised the skill cap. The ultimate failure.
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On November 13 2013 23:07 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 23:00 Chaggi wrote:
And what did they say their goal was for the oracle with this buff?
"to add late game viability" or some crap like that, except any good Protoss that really wanted to keep that thing alive, already was. Now everyone can keep it alive. The most hilarious part is how this... Show nested quote +[David Kim's justification]
the main reason is that we’d like the difference between someone who’s amazing with Oracle micro to be able to keep them alive the whole game to get the most out of them, whereas lesser skilled players won’t get as much out of this change. ... is completely untrue. Instead of setting apart players—which, as a matter of fact, wasn't needed at all since you could already clearly see the difference—every Protoss with decent micro will be able to be extremely annoying with an Oracle while still keeping it alive. In short, they lowered the skill floor much more than they raised the skill cap. The ultimate failure.
If only their changes made sense with what they're saying...
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On November 13 2013 23:13 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 23:07 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 23:00 Chaggi wrote:
And what did they say their goal was for the oracle with this buff?
"to add late game viability" or some crap like that, except any good Protoss that really wanted to keep that thing alive, already was. Now everyone can keep it alive. The most hilarious part is how this... [David Kim's justification]
the main reason is that we’d like the difference between someone who’s amazing with Oracle micro to be able to keep them alive the whole game to get the most out of them, whereas lesser skilled players won’t get as much out of this change. ... is completely untrue. Instead of setting apart players—which, as a matter of fact, wasn't needed at all since you could already clearly see the difference—every Protoss with decent micro will be able to be extremely annoying with an Oracle while still keeping it alive. In short, they lowered the skill floor much more than they raised the skill cap. The ultimate failure. If only their changes made sense with what they're saying...
Regardless there would still be people complaining because the patch is not going their way. Pretty much like right now and every patch before. Some people here have reached a level of victimisation/paranoia that is beyond reasonnable and is pretty much detrimental given how extreme their reactions are. Don't read patch notes and enjoy the game as it is or just take a break...
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I just don't understand how Blizzard balance tim minds work. Majority of those terrans who qualified for the global finals came from the era when hellbats were op. Since then, the game was at worst case scenario balanced, recent results could argue that terrans are even slightly underperforming in some matchups like TvP. Most recent TvZs I have seen was basically played out in a way that player with superior mechanics would won. I don't see a problem with that.
I am not saying that terran is UP but I really don't understand the mine nerf.
I cant wait to see how bio+mine will look now after that patch since 6,66% attack increase on the tanks wont make mech any better against Hots mutas, vipers, swarmhosts etc.
Why don't they just let the game develop by itself (by players who play it) and interfere way less then they do... how can you even determine balance if you influence the game with patches every 2-3 months?
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On November 14 2013 00:00 Qwerty85 wrote:
I just don't understand how Blizzard balance tim minds work. Majority of those terrans who qualified for the global finals came from the era when hellbats were op. Since then, the game was at worst case scenario balanced, recent results could argue that terrans are even slightly underperforming in some matchups like TvP. Most recent TvZs I have seen was basically played out in a way that player with superior mechanics would won. I don't see a problem with that.
I am not saying that terran is UP but I really don't understand the mine nerf.
I cant wait to see how bio+mine will look now after that patch since 6,66% attack increase on the tanks wont make mech any better against Hots mutas, vipers, swarmhosts etc.
Why don't they just let the game develop by itself (by players who play it) and interfere way less then they do... how can you even determine balance if you influence the game with patches every 2-3 months?
Because people then bitch at them for not doing anything/caring about SC2. They get screwed either way by the community.
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On November 13 2013 23:31 PPN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 23:13 Chaggi wrote:On November 13 2013 23:07 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 23:00 Chaggi wrote:
And what did they say their goal was for the oracle with this buff?
"to add late game viability" or some crap like that, except any good Protoss that really wanted to keep that thing alive, already was. Now everyone can keep it alive. The most hilarious part is how this... [David Kim's justification]
the main reason is that we’d like the difference between someone who’s amazing with Oracle micro to be able to keep them alive the whole game to get the most out of them, whereas lesser skilled players won’t get as much out of this change. ... is completely untrue. Instead of setting apart players—which, as a matter of fact, wasn't needed at all since you could already clearly see the difference—every Protoss with decent micro will be able to be extremely annoying with an Oracle while still keeping it alive. In short, they lowered the skill floor much more than they raised the skill cap. The ultimate failure. If only their changes made sense with what they're saying... Regardless there would still be people complaining because the patch is not going their way. Pretty much like right now and every patch before. Some people here have reached a level of victimisation/paranoia that is beyond reasonnable and is pretty much detrimental given how extreme their reactions are. Don't read patch notes and enjoy the game as it is or just take a break...
Stop trying to sound reasonable when you are not,or maybe you are reading discussion threads about patch notes expecting people to not discuss those changes. Manners can be different, as people get more emotionally attached to their races, which is totally reasonable given the amount of time some people put into the game, and for every person in this thread that may be overracting, there is atleast one dude underreacting, to the patch changes, giving them less importance than they have on day by day gameplay for fellow sc2 players.
And i have yet to read a justification to widow mine's nerf and oracle's buff which may sound reasonable. If you have one opinion, you could share it with us, instead of whining about the whining.
Nerfing widow mine in an already balanced match ups (their numbers) do not work towards allowing more variety, in fact it is the oppossite, since they will need to overcompensate somewhere else, which will turn into a default choice instead. We already know MMMM worked on TvZ, and for what we know it is balanced, so the logical thinking towards more variety in army compositions would be to find and buff a different unit composition to reach the level of MMMM, not downgrade it.
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On November 12 2013 09:00 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 08:57 awesomoecalypse wrote:On November 12 2013 08:54 SamirDuran wrote:
didn't DK saw what an oracle can be when it was putted in the hands of good protoss players such as sOs? You mean getting picked off or shut down almost right away in nearly every game? If the motivation behind the Oracle buff is that it is too slow and fragile for even very skilled players to consistently keep it alive, then sOs' games were a decent demonstration of that being the case. Of course, I think basing everything one one tournament is more than a little sily. But if you look around at Protoss play in general on the pro level, Oracles as a unit that remains alive and active throughout the game isn't really something we see almost ever. Yea, it's insanely hard to keep an Oracle alive. sOs' Oracles barely did anything in the Bomber series, in the Polt series they did good in 1 or 2 games and nothing in the others. I think it's pretty awesome now, if you're good enough you can clip a Mutalisk flock with Revelation and escape.
Well if a player always opens oracles ofc they will be easy to shut down. Against player who varies his playstyle a bit and doesn't open exactly the same every single game, oracles are powerful and useful..
If MKP couldn't last in SC2 with predictable cc 1st on the low ground, why should a player who opens oracle in every game be successful ?
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On November 14 2013 00:00 Qwerty85 wrote:
I just don't understand how Blizzard balance tim minds work. Majority of those terrans who qualified for the global finals came from the era when hellbats were op. Since then, the game was at worst case scenario balanced, recent results could argue that terrans are even slightly underperforming in some matchups like TvP. Most recent TvZs I have seen was basically played out in a way that player with superior mechanics would won. I don't see a problem with that.
I am not saying that terran is UP but I really don't understand the mine nerf.
I cant wait to see how bio+mine will look now after that patch since 6,66% attack increase on the tanks wont make mech any better against Hots mutas, vipers, swarmhosts etc.
Why don't they just let the game develop by itself (by players who play it) and interfere way less then they do... how can you even determine balance if you influence the game with patches every 2-3 months?
Maru won WCS Korea after the hellbat nerf
Polt won WCS AM twice after the hellbat nerf
MMA won WCS EU after the hellbat nerf
Bomber won the WCS Sesaon 2 finals after the hellbat nerf
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_StarCraft_II_World_Championship_Series
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On November 12 2013 09:37 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 09:36 r691175002 wrote:So here are the balance numbers they dropped at Blizcon: ![[image loading]](http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/7112/8m00.jpg) Who believes them? I don't see how it's unreasonable to believe that's the case.
Because this shows almost perfect balance. Why all the changes if everything is perfect? And what about race representation at higher leagues like GM and Master league?
Is it impossible that they are showing us better numbers than what is realistic?
It is like watching fuel consumption stats for your car and blindly believing in them even though we know you can never get those results in real life scenario, only in perfectly controlled environment. Or believing in battery life on your cell phone even though the statistics never get proved in reality.
Companies lie all the time, they want to present their product as better than it actually is, I don't see why we should blindly believe the stats that Blizzard gives us. Independent source that gathers data from all bigger tournaments is much more realistic than any stats Blizzard would show
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On November 14 2013 00:07 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 09:00 ZAiNs wrote:On November 12 2013 08:57 awesomoecalypse wrote:On November 12 2013 08:54 SamirDuran wrote:
didn't DK saw what an oracle can be when it was putted in the hands of good protoss players such as sOs? You mean getting picked off or shut down almost right away in nearly every game? If the motivation behind the Oracle buff is that it is too slow and fragile for even very skilled players to consistently keep it alive, then sOs' games were a decent demonstration of that being the case. Of course, I think basing everything one one tournament is more than a little sily. But if you look around at Protoss play in general on the pro level, Oracles as a unit that remains alive and active throughout the game isn't really something we see almost ever. Yea, it's insanely hard to keep an Oracle alive. sOs' Oracles barely did anything in the Bomber series, in the Polt series they did good in 1 or 2 games and nothing in the others. I think it's pretty awesome now, if you're good enough you can clip a Mutalisk flock with Revelation and escape. Well if a player always opens oracles ofc they will be easy to shut down. Against player who varies his playstyle a bit and doesn't open exactly the same every single game, oracles are powerful and useful..If MKP couldn't last in SC2 with predictable cc 1st on the low ground, why should a player who opens oracle in every game be successful ?
Man, you can say that about almost any unit, come on.
On November 14 2013 00:12 awesomoecalypse wrote:I while back, Kracen posted a really fun and skill-intensive 4 Oracle PvT build ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=421742 ). Now that they've been buffed in a way that really complements this style, It'd be really cool of Oracle based Stargate play became the new standard in PvT.
Was watching Grubby play around with some mass Oracle stuff yesterday, dunno if it was just because it was a new gimmick or what, but it looked fairly effective. Most importantly, it looked like a lot more FUN than "standard" Protoss play haha
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EPT
