then from the beta we have: Medivac buff Raven buff(s) Yamato Canon buff Thor buff Siege Tank Upgrade removed Reaper buff Mech Weapon buff part 1 might be missing something...
gonna keep in mind that being "extremly reluctant to make any Terran buff" means that they changed everything that is underused in some way (minus ghosts).
Yeah, because the Cloak buff totally compensated the Hellbat nerf in TvP/Z, right? Your digital argument is so pointless.
Read what I respond to.... He said "any Terran buff". Which gets disproven by... well, showing any Terran buff.
Imaginary patch:
Marines' dps decreased by 30% Hellions' hit points increased by 5
→ Big J's comment: "Terran has been buffed."
Strong logic at work here.
you don't get what I was responding to, do you? But yes, Terran would be buffed with this patch. And nerfed. You know, it's not a one-dimensional relationship. SC2 isn't one number that you increase or decrease with a patch, it's a vector of many of them.
Edit: But that's probably too much for you. I'd rather post something on your level: uaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggaios jdpoi afhiophs afkj ashl h l as
You're the one not getting it. You're considering an individual buff and saying "look, they do buff Terran!" when you have to analyze the patch as a whole. You could still heavily weaken a race with 8 buffs and a single nerf.
i dont understand why people are saying that nerfing bio is a way to go .. why not just add the viability ... MMM maybe obnoxious to watch but that doesnt mean its poor design and its what that holds back the game .. if you remove bio .. i dont see any other micro potential from terran and the game will look like just another rts ..
then from the beta we have: Medivac buff Raven buff(s) Yamato Canon buff Thor buff Siege Tank Upgrade removed Reaper buff Mech Weapon buff part 1 might be missing something...
gonna keep in mind that being "extremly reluctant to make any Terran buff" means that they changed everything that is underused in some way (minus ghosts).
Yeah, because the Cloak buff totally compensated the Hellbat nerf in TvP/Z, right? Your digital argument is so pointless.
Read what I respond to.... He said "any Terran buff". Which gets disproven by... well, showing any Terran buff.
Imaginary patch:
Marines' dps decreased by 30% Hellions' hit points increased by 5
→ Big J's comment: "Terran has been buffed."
Strong logic at work here.
you don't get what I was responding to, do you? But yes, Terran would be buffed with this patch. And nerfed. You know, it's not a one-dimensional relationship. SC2 isn't one number that you increase or decrease with a patch, it's a vector of many of them.
Edit: But that's probably too much for you. I'd rather post something on your level: uaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggaios jdpoi afhiophs afkj ashl h l as
You're the one not getting it. You're considering an individual buff and saying "look, they do buff Terran!" when you have to analyze the patch at a whole. You could still heavily weaken a race with 8 buffs and a single nerf.
No you don't have to analyize it at a whole. Because when you buff banshees and nerf hellbats you buff banshee-based playstyles. The outcome may be weaker in certain scenarios. It may be weaker statistically speaking as a whole. But it's still a buff in other scenarios. That's why you can't consider it as a whole.
You simply cannot say the banshee cloaking cost reduction is not a buff to Terran.
then from the beta we have: Medivac buff Raven buff(s) Yamato Canon buff Thor buff Siege Tank Upgrade removed Reaper buff Mech Weapon buff part 1 might be missing something...
gonna keep in mind that being "extremly reluctant to make any Terran buff" means that they changed everything that is underused in some way (minus ghosts).
Yeah, because the Cloak buff totally compensated the Hellbat nerf in TvP/Z, right? Your digital argument is so pointless.
Read what I respond to.... He said "any Terran buff". Which gets disproven by... well, showing any Terran buff.
Imaginary patch:
Marines' dps decreased by 30% Hellions' hit points increased by 5
→ Big J's comment: "Terran has been buffed."
Strong logic at work here.
you don't get what I was responding to, do you? But yes, Terran would be buffed with this patch. And nerfed. You know, it's not a one-dimensional relationship. SC2 isn't one number that you increase or decrease with a patch, it's a vector of many of them.
Edit: But that's probably too much for you. I'd rather post something on your level: uaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggaios jdpoi afhiophs afkj ashl h l as
You're the one not getting it. You're considering an individual buff and saying "look, they do buff Terran!" when you have to analyze the patch at a whole. You could still heavily weaken a race with 8 buffs and a single nerf.
No you don't have to analyize it at a whole. Because when you buff banshees and nerf hellbats you buff banshee-based playstyles. The outcome may be weaker in certain scenarios. It may be weaker statistically speaking as a whole. But it's still a buff in other scenarios. That's why you can't consider it as a whole.
You simply cannot say the banshee cloaking cost reduction is not a buff to Terran.
Since there is Photon overcharge together with having detection available through Stargate tech and Spore Crawlers don't require an Evo Chamber anymore I would say the only match-up where Banshees are really commonly used is TvT and we know that any balance changes don't give additional edges in mirrors. While it's true on paper that cost reduction for cloak was a buff, it barely compensates for the nerfs.
On November 13 2013 19:29 goody153 wrote: i dont understand why people are saying that nerfing bio is a way to go .. why not just add the viability ... MMM maybe obnoxious to watch but that doesnt mean its poor design and its what that holds back the game .. if you remove bio .. i dont see any other micro potential from terran and the game will look like just another rts ..
I think obnoxious is certainly not the right way to describe bio ...terran bio in the hands of a korean multitasking, macro and micro bot is incredible to watch. However after years of watching it, it does get a bit bland, and it's even more stale these days since terran builds are so limited vs zerg and protoss for a number of reasons. I certainly want to see more strategies and unit compositions come out of top terrans, I think that's what most people want as well, even if it's only in two of the matchups.
then from the beta we have: Medivac buff Raven buff(s) Yamato Canon buff Thor buff Siege Tank Upgrade removed Reaper buff Mech Weapon buff part 1 might be missing something...
gonna keep in mind that being "extremly reluctant to make any Terran buff" means that they changed everything that is underused in some way (minus ghosts).
Yeah, because the Cloak buff totally compensated the Hellbat nerf in TvP/Z, right? Your digital argument is so pointless.
Read what I respond to.... He said "any Terran buff". Which gets disproven by... well, showing any Terran buff.
Imaginary patch:
Marines' dps decreased by 30% Hellions' hit points increased by 5
→ Big J's comment: "Terran has been buffed."
Strong logic at work here.
you don't get what I was responding to, do you? But yes, Terran would be buffed with this patch. And nerfed. You know, it's not a one-dimensional relationship. SC2 isn't one number that you increase or decrease with a patch, it's a vector of many of them.
Edit: But that's probably too much for you. I'd rather post something on your level: uaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggaios jdpoi afhiophs afkj ashl h l as
You're the one not getting it. You're considering an individual buff and saying "look, they do buff Terran!" when you have to analyze the patch at a whole. You could still heavily weaken a race with 8 buffs and a single nerf.
No you don't have to analyize it at a whole. Because when you buff banshees and nerf hellbats you buff banshee-based playstyles. The outcome may be weaker in certain scenarios. It may be weaker statistically speaking as a whole. But it's still a buff in other scenarios. That's why you can't consider it as a whole.
You simply cannot say the banshee cloaking cost reduction is not a buff to Terran.
I am not disputing the fact the Cloak Banshee cost reduction was a Terran buff. I am saying the combination of the Cloak Banshee cost reduction and the Hellbat damage decrease resulted in Terran being weakened; thus the patch was a Terran nerf. Arguing that Blizzard isn't afraid to buff Terran because they offer derisory compensations when demolishing entire parts of the Terran gameplay makes little sense.
then from the beta we have: Medivac buff Raven buff(s) Yamato Canon buff Thor buff Siege Tank Upgrade removed Reaper buff Mech Weapon buff part 1 might be missing something...
gonna keep in mind that being "extremly reluctant to make any Terran buff" means that they changed everything that is underused in some way (minus ghosts).
Yeah, because the Cloak buff totally compensated the Hellbat nerf in TvP/Z, right? Your digital argument is so pointless.
Read what I respond to.... He said "any Terran buff". Which gets disproven by... well, showing any Terran buff.
Imaginary patch:
Marines' dps decreased by 30% Hellions' hit points increased by 5
→ Big J's comment: "Terran has been buffed."
Strong logic at work here.
you don't get what I was responding to, do you? But yes, Terran would be buffed with this patch. And nerfed. You know, it's not a one-dimensional relationship. SC2 isn't one number that you increase or decrease with a patch, it's a vector of many of them.
Edit: But that's probably too much for you. I'd rather post something on your level: uaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggaios jdpoi afhiophs afkj ashl h l as
As you are being very picky with what you write, you are wrong. For his imaginary patch of nerfing marines DPS by 30% and increasing the hellions hit points by 5, the marine has been nerfed and the hellion has been buffed. Since the marine is more crucial to Terran and the nerf outweights the buff to the hellion by far, _TERRAN_ has been nerfed.
You can try to juggle around it as much as you want, but thats how it works. A buff and a nerf doesn't mean that balance is kept. A small buff doesn't make up for a big nerf in the race.
then from the beta we have: Medivac buff Raven buff(s) Yamato Canon buff Thor buff Siege Tank Upgrade removed Reaper buff Mech Weapon buff part 1 might be missing something...
gonna keep in mind that being "extremly reluctant to make any Terran buff" means that they changed everything that is underused in some way (minus ghosts).
Yeah, because the Cloak buff totally compensated the Hellbat nerf in TvP/Z, right? Your digital argument is so pointless.
Read what I respond to.... He said "any Terran buff". Which gets disproven by... well, showing any Terran buff.
Imaginary patch:
Marines' dps decreased by 30% Hellions' hit points increased by 5
→ Big J's comment: "Terran has been buffed."
Strong logic at work here.
you don't get what I was responding to, do you? But yes, Terran would be buffed with this patch. And nerfed. You know, it's not a one-dimensional relationship. SC2 isn't one number that you increase or decrease with a patch, it's a vector of many of them.
Edit: But that's probably too much for you. I'd rather post something on your level: uaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggaios jdpoi afhiophs afkj ashl h l as
You're the one not getting it. You're considering an individual buff and saying "look, they do buff Terran!" when you have to analyze the patch at a whole. You could still heavily weaken a race with 8 buffs and a single nerf.
No you don't have to analyize it at a whole. Because when you buff banshees and nerf hellbats you buff banshee-based playstyles. The outcome may be weaker in certain scenarios. It may be weaker statistically speaking as a whole. But it's still a buff in other scenarios. That's why you can't consider it as a whole.
You simply cannot say the banshee cloaking cost reduction is not a buff to Terran.
Oh you absolutely can, since cloaked Banshee´s have absolutely 0 impact on non mirror matchups. You could give them the cloak for free right from the start! It would not change anything at all in TvZ and TvP!
On November 13 2013 19:29 goody153 wrote: i dont understand why people are saying that nerfing bio is a way to go .. why not just add the viability ... MMM maybe obnoxious to watch but that doesnt mean its poor design and its what that holds back the game .. if you remove bio .. i dont see any other micro potential from terran and the game will look like just another rts ..
I think obnoxious is certainly not the right way to describe bio ...terran bio in the hands of a korean multitasking, macro and micro bot is incredible to watch. However after years of watching it, it does get a bit bland, and it's even more stale these days since terran builds are so limited vs zerg and protoss for a number of reasons. I certainly want to see more strategies and unit compositions come out of top terrans, I think that's what most people want as well, even if it's only in two of the matchups.
most of sc2 fans wants to see variety .. but removing bio as a viable playstyle is bit out of hand .. making mech equally viable as bio is much more appropriate .. just like how tvz worked in broodwar both mech and bio were equally viable .. and we dont get too see one style being played ovver and over again ..
then from the beta we have: Medivac buff Raven buff(s) Yamato Canon buff Thor buff Siege Tank Upgrade removed Reaper buff Mech Weapon buff part 1 might be missing something...
gonna keep in mind that being "extremly reluctant to make any Terran buff" means that they changed everything that is underused in some way (minus ghosts).
Yeah, because the Cloak buff totally compensated the Hellbat nerf in TvP/Z, right? Your digital argument is so pointless.
Read what I respond to.... He said "any Terran buff". Which gets disproven by... well, showing any Terran buff.
Imaginary patch:
Marines' dps decreased by 30% Hellions' hit points increased by 5
→ Big J's comment: "Terran has been buffed."
Strong logic at work here.
you don't get what I was responding to, do you? But yes, Terran would be buffed with this patch. And nerfed. You know, it's not a one-dimensional relationship. SC2 isn't one number that you increase or decrease with a patch, it's a vector of many of them.
Edit: But that's probably too much for you. I'd rather post something on your level: uaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggaios jdpoi afhiophs afkj ashl h l as
I don't see why you shouldn't evaluate the patch with a one-dimension variable. Take the winrate in TvZ (at the highest level of course, not on ladder) for example. If it decreases after the patch, that will have been a nerf, if it increases, that will have been a buff. It's certainly simple and not representative of how a matchup is played, but that's not unreasonable. No need to pull out fancy math notations and be rude to others, that doesn't make you look smarter.
Any zergs in da house?! :o Im curious to hear about any fun you have had with the roach burrow speed. Do you manage to get anything cool stuff done with it?
i'm not sure how much the tank change will make a difference,it seems like too small of a change to me...the roach change is what i like the most, now they can be used to harass a little bit instead of being a meat shield for most of the game. as for the oracle speed i can't figure out what the reasoning process behind buffing a pure harass unit was, for the race with the most safe and effective harass in the game already O.o
How would people feel about a cost reduction in static defense for terran (bunkers, turrets).
It would help with stuff like proxy oracles, blink all-ins and muta backstabs (the bane of tank/marine). It likely won't really make 11-11s, bunker/reaper stronger since the build time is more of the issue in those scenario and turrets are for defense. Would make mech more viable and less banshee just ending games in TvT.
On November 13 2013 21:06 vthree wrote: Just throwing an idea out there.
How would people feel about a cost reduction in static defense for terran (bunkers, turrets).
It would help with stuff like proxy oracles, blink all-ins and muta backstabs (the bane of tank/marine). It likely won't really make 11-11s, bunker/reaper stronger since the build time is more of the issue in those scenario and turrets are for defense. Would make mech more viable and less banshee just ending games in TvT.
If they want to keep the Oracle and the Mutalisk as stupid as they are now, Turrets could indeed do with costing 75 instead of 100.
then from the beta we have: Medivac buff Raven buff(s) Yamato Canon buff Thor buff Siege Tank Upgrade removed Reaper buff Mech Weapon buff part 1 might be missing something...
gonna keep in mind that being "extremly reluctant to make any Terran buff" means that they changed everything that is underused in some way (minus ghosts).
Yeah, because the Cloak buff totally compensated the Hellbat nerf in TvP/Z, right? Your digital argument is so pointless.
Read what I respond to.... He said "any Terran buff". Which gets disproven by... well, showing any Terran buff.
Imaginary patch:
Marines' dps decreased by 30% Hellions' hit points increased by 5
→ Big J's comment: "Terran has been buffed."
Strong logic at work here.
you don't get what I was responding to, do you? But yes, Terran would be buffed with this patch. And nerfed. You know, it's not a one-dimensional relationship. SC2 isn't one number that you increase or decrease with a patch, it's a vector of many of them.
Edit: But that's probably too much for you. I'd rather post something on your level: uaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggaios jdpoi afhiophs afkj ashl h l as
You're the one not getting it. You're considering an individual buff and saying "look, they do buff Terran!" when you have to analyze the patch at a whole. You could still heavily weaken a race with 8 buffs and a single nerf.
No you don't have to analyize it at a whole. Because when you buff banshees and nerf hellbats you buff banshee-based playstyles. The outcome may be weaker in certain scenarios. It may be weaker statistically speaking as a whole. But it's still a buff in other scenarios. That's why you can't consider it as a whole.
You simply cannot say the banshee cloaking cost reduction is not a buff to Terran.
Oh you absolutely can, since cloaked Banshee´s have absolutely 0 impact on non mirror matchups. You could give them the cloak for free right from the start! It would not change anything at all in TvZ and TvP!
People said that hellbats didn't affect anything but tvt as well. I agree with that about as much as I agree with you're idea on free cloak for banshees
EPT
...terran bio in the hands of a korean multitasking, macro and micro bot is incredible to watch. However after years of watching it, it does get a bit bland, and it's even more stale these days since terran builds are so limited vs zerg and protoss for a number of reasons. I certainly want to see more strategies and unit compositions come out of top terrans, I think that's what most people want as well, even if it's only in two of the matchups.
