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On November 13 2013 10:55 avilo wrote:
So after playing the patch more...here are my thoughts about mech (if you agree that's fine, disagree that's fine too, please say your reasons !)
I feel no difference at all with siege tanks. The buff was quite negligible and i don't think warrants the widow mine nerf (just my opinion, and this is coming from someone who doesn't use mines as heavily as other Terrans).
The armory change i do not feel helped mech one bit. Every single one of my mech games has played out exactly as it did before the patch, immortals still overperform vs tanks/mech.
I will say, the biggest issue i see with mech right now that is ignored is that most of my mech vs P games especially...i will be at most 2/0 vs Protoss 2/0/2 or Protoss just finished 3/0/3 upgrades. This is the reason why mech will continue to remain not as viable as bio.
Most games i win with "mech" in TvP are actually not tank based at all, or end up with mass banshee/viking/raven with a few tanks and lots of hellion production. The tank is in really bad shape right now vs Protoss (it has been for ages).
Everyone of us knows how important upgrades are, and the armory change does not do anything to address how early on in a game a meching Terran can begin their upgrades. I can be 1/1 as a bio Terran or Zerg/Protoss before a mech Terran even has their armory completed. I believe if blizzard wants to have more than just bio every game for Terran, they should reduce the price of the armory to brood war price (100/50).
Other than that, all of my mech games feel exactly the same, and i feel the only thing the armory change does is essentially buff vikings late game so you now have upgrades on them instead of 0/0 vikings. Of course, at this stage in the game things like storm/fungal/seeker ignore upgrades...so it's meh.
I honestly don't think this is a "better than nothing change" because if people are content with this change then i don't see blizzard ever doing any meaningful changes to improve mech.
Just my thoughts as someone that's meched in all 3 match-ups for over 2 years in SC2 now.
Agree, I dont know if the upgrade changes will really be enough, eventually both players hit 3-3, if your upgrades are equal I still dont think that gives u this huge window of opportunity to smash him.
I think the key to fixing tanks lies in the Immortal as that is mechs biggest problem.
The way you fix this without breaking roaches vs P is to make PDD block immortal shots and immune to feedback. That plus the upgrade changes you want would IMO really start to turn mech more viable in TvP.
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On November 13 2013 11:06 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 11:02 Blackfeather wrote:On November 13 2013 10:36 kingcars wrote:On November 13 2013 09:56 Afterhours wrote:
God, I swear, Terrans. It's like you guys got too comfy in your EZmode early days of WoL, and now that you have to actually experiment (see: Work) and figure things out like the other races, the game is too hard/other races OP/terran sucks now, etc.
Such QQ.
Wow. Oh right, lets just conveniently forget the BL/Infestor era. That was obviously EZ mode for Terrans and nobody experimented at all during that time (Gumiho doing multi-pronged auto turret harassment anyone?). And somehow, Blizzard didn't do ANYTHING about it for 9-10 months. You're so smart and totally not biased, I bow to you. Sorry but Zerg domination in the GSL started around 10/2012 and ended with the last WoL-GSL 03/2013, that's 5 months, not 9. How long was terran undoubtly the no.1 race? I guess the two years from the release to that point. Sure they were on average not as dominant as zerg was in the two they won, but GomTvT surely could compare (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Global_StarCraft_II_League_October/Code_S). You can argue about the first HotS-WCS being zerg favored, but Soulkey vs Innovation was 4:3, so really close and not what i would call domination, especially considering that it was a new game version and everything was still changing. Both players also have proven that they are top-notch. It's also wrong that Blizzard didnt care. They patched fungal to 8 range and nerfed egg-health, which was not enough, but they still tried. They then waited for a season and released HotS, which "solved" the infestor problem. According to Aligulac, the Z domination started around May 2012. http://aligulac.com/reports/
That might very well be the case for the ladder, but not for the pro players. At the highest level of play it was more Protoss domination (i think for the first time in starcraft 2) than Zerg in May:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_3/Code_S
You could argue that it started the GSL afterwards, but imo that's closer to racial balance than to Zerg domination.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_4/Code_S
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On November 13 2013 11:16 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 11:06 Faust852 wrote:On November 13 2013 11:02 Blackfeather wrote:On November 13 2013 10:36 kingcars wrote:On November 13 2013 09:56 Afterhours wrote:
God, I swear, Terrans. It's like you guys got too comfy in your EZmode early days of WoL, and now that you have to actually experiment (see: Work) and figure things out like the other races, the game is too hard/other races OP/terran sucks now, etc.
Such QQ.
Wow. Oh right, lets just conveniently forget the BL/Infestor era. That was obviously EZ mode for Terrans and nobody experimented at all during that time (Gumiho doing multi-pronged auto turret harassment anyone?). And somehow, Blizzard didn't do ANYTHING about it for 9-10 months. You're so smart and totally not biased, I bow to you. Sorry but Zerg domination in the GSL started around 10/2012 and ended with the last WoL-GSL 03/2013, that's 5 months, not 9. How long was terran undoubtly the no.1 race? I guess the two years from the release to that point. Sure they were on average not as dominant as zerg was in the two they won, but GomTvT surely could compare (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Global_StarCraft_II_League_October/Code_S). You can argue about the first HotS-WCS being zerg favored, but Soulkey vs Innovation was 4:3, so really close and not what i would call domination, especially considering that it was a new game version and everything was still changing. Both players also have proven that they are top-notch. It's also wrong that Blizzard didnt care. They patched fungal to 8 range and nerfed egg-health, which was not enough, but they still tried. They then waited for a season and released HotS, which "solved" the infestor problem. According to Aligulac, the Z domination started around May 2012. http://aligulac.com/reports/ That might very well be the case for the ladder, but not for the pro players. At the highest level of play it was more Protoss domination (i think for the first time in starcraft 2) than Zerg in May: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_3/Code_SYou could argue that it started the GSL afterwards, but imo that's closer to racial balance than to Zerg domination. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_4/Code_S
Aligulac isn't based on ladder, but on tournaments, and not only the GSL so it's a bigger sample.
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On November 13 2013 11:12 r691175002 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 10:45 Smigi wrote:
Its laughable to think people who are complaining really think this patch effects them. Most of you people aren't grandmaster, which means your micro, macro, and overall skill/mechanics aren't even good enough. So focus on improving your game to a point where these patches actually effect you. I never understood this point of view, given that the imbalance is far more pronounced at lower levels of play. Terran is significantly underrepresented as soon as you hit plat league, and it gets worse the further up you go. http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/race
It's a simple understanding. If you lose to a tank push, is it because tanks are too strong? No it's not because they're too strong; unless you're jaedong and you haven't been able to figure out how to not die from this certain strategy for 2 months straight.
The game must be balanced around the most elite levels. Looking at statistics in these lower levels are worthless, because most of them are not losing because of their race or because oracles have increased acceleration. They are losing because they are not good at the game and need to improve instead of asking for changes.
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On November 13 2013 11:17 Smigi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 11:12 r691175002 wrote:On November 13 2013 10:45 Smigi wrote:
Its laughable to think people who are complaining really think this patch effects them. Most of you people aren't grandmaster, which means your micro, macro, and overall skill/mechanics aren't even good enough. So focus on improving your game to a point where these patches actually effect you. I never understood this point of view, given that the imbalance is far more pronounced at lower levels of play. Terran is significantly underrepresented as soon as you hit plat league, and it gets worse the further up you go. http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/race It's a simple understanding. If you lose to a tank push, is it because tanks are too strong? That is a stupid and ridiculous mindset. The game must be balanced around the most elite levels. Looking at statistics in these lower levels are worthless, because most of them are not losing because of their race or because oracles have increased acceleration. They are losing because they are not good at the game and need to improve instead of asking for changes.
If starcraft 2 was only reserved to players that can train 10h/day, we would have heard of that.
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On November 13 2013 11:19 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 11:17 Smigi wrote:On November 13 2013 11:12 r691175002 wrote:On November 13 2013 10:45 Smigi wrote:
Its laughable to think people who are complaining really think this patch effects them. Most of you people aren't grandmaster, which means your micro, macro, and overall skill/mechanics aren't even good enough. So focus on improving your game to a point where these patches actually effect you. I never understood this point of view, given that the imbalance is far more pronounced at lower levels of play. Terran is significantly underrepresented as soon as you hit plat league, and it gets worse the further up you go. http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/race It's a simple understanding. If you lose to a tank push, is it because tanks are too strong? That is a stupid and ridiculous mindset. The game must be balanced around the most elite levels. Looking at statistics in these lower levels are worthless, because most of them are not losing because of their race or because oracles have increased acceleration. They are losing because they are not good at the game and need to improve instead of asking for changes. If starcraft 2 was only reserved to players that can train 10h/day, we would have heard of that.
And David Kim wouldnt tell us he is making the game accessible to casuals.
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On November 13 2013 11:19 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 11:17 Smigi wrote:On November 13 2013 11:12 r691175002 wrote:On November 13 2013 10:45 Smigi wrote:
Its laughable to think people who are complaining really think this patch effects them. Most of you people aren't grandmaster, which means your micro, macro, and overall skill/mechanics aren't even good enough. So focus on improving your game to a point where these patches actually effect you. I never understood this point of view, given that the imbalance is far more pronounced at lower levels of play. Terran is significantly underrepresented as soon as you hit plat league, and it gets worse the further up you go. http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/race It's a simple understanding. If you lose to a tank push, is it because tanks are too strong? That is a stupid and ridiculous mindset. The game must be balanced around the most elite levels. Looking at statistics in these lower levels are worthless, because most of them are not losing because of their race or because oracles have increased acceleration. They are losing because they are not good at the game and need to improve instead of asking for changes. If starcraft 2 was only reserved to players that can train 10h/day, we would have heard of that.
I do not understand some of you. You complain that starcraft 2 has a low skill ceiling, but say the game shouldn't be balanced around the elite level.
There is a serious case of cognitive dissonance going around here.
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On November 13 2013 11:17 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 11:16 Blackfeather wrote:On November 13 2013 11:06 Faust852 wrote:On November 13 2013 11:02 Blackfeather wrote:On November 13 2013 10:36 kingcars wrote:On November 13 2013 09:56 Afterhours wrote:
God, I swear, Terrans. It's like you guys got too comfy in your EZmode early days of WoL, and now that you have to actually experiment (see: Work) and figure things out like the other races, the game is too hard/other races OP/terran sucks now, etc.
Such QQ.
Wow. Oh right, lets just conveniently forget the BL/Infestor era. That was obviously EZ mode for Terrans and nobody experimented at all during that time (Gumiho doing multi-pronged auto turret harassment anyone?). And somehow, Blizzard didn't do ANYTHING about it for 9-10 months. You're so smart and totally not biased, I bow to you. Sorry but Zerg domination in the GSL started around 10/2012 and ended with the last WoL-GSL 03/2013, that's 5 months, not 9. How long was terran undoubtly the no.1 race? I guess the two years from the release to that point. Sure they were on average not as dominant as zerg was in the two they won, but GomTvT surely could compare (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Global_StarCraft_II_League_October/Code_S). You can argue about the first HotS-WCS being zerg favored, but Soulkey vs Innovation was 4:3, so really close and not what i would call domination, especially considering that it was a new game version and everything was still changing. Both players also have proven that they are top-notch. It's also wrong that Blizzard didnt care. They patched fungal to 8 range and nerfed egg-health, which was not enough, but they still tried. They then waited for a season and released HotS, which "solved" the infestor problem. According to Aligulac, the Z domination started around May 2012. http://aligulac.com/reports/ That might very well be the case for the ladder, but not for the pro players. At the highest level of play it was more Protoss domination (i think for the first time in starcraft 2) than Zerg in May: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_3/Code_SYou could argue that it started the GSL afterwards, but imo that's closer to racial balance than to Zerg domination. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_4/Code_S Aligulac isn't based on ladder, but on tournaments, and not only the GSL so it's a bigger sample.
Okay sorry i misread.
However i dont see how NA or EU-Tournaments hold much value for the overall balancing. I think DK said once in an interview (that might have even been around that time, but i'm really not sure) that American Zergs are doing way better than Korean Zergs in their respective tournament. But let's be honest, if top American Zergs play against top Korean Terrans and Protoss, they wont do better than top Korean Zergs anymore.
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On November 13 2013 11:21 Smigi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 11:19 Faust852 wrote:On November 13 2013 11:17 Smigi wrote:On November 13 2013 11:12 r691175002 wrote:On November 13 2013 10:45 Smigi wrote:
Its laughable to think people who are complaining really think this patch effects them. Most of you people aren't grandmaster, which means your micro, macro, and overall skill/mechanics aren't even good enough. So focus on improving your game to a point where these patches actually effect you. I never understood this point of view, given that the imbalance is far more pronounced at lower levels of play. Terran is significantly underrepresented as soon as you hit plat league, and it gets worse the further up you go. http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/race It's a simple understanding. If you lose to a tank push, is it because tanks are too strong? That is a stupid and ridiculous mindset. The game must be balanced around the most elite levels. Looking at statistics in these lower levels are worthless, because most of them are not losing because of their race or because oracles have increased acceleration. They are losing because they are not good at the game and need to improve instead of asking for changes. If starcraft 2 was only reserved to players that can train 10h/day, we would have heard of that. I do not understand some of you. You complain that starcraft 2 has a low skill ceiling, but say the game shouldn't be balanced around the elite level. There is a serious case of cognitive dissonance going around here.
I still think they should balance the game for high master/gm. Not only top GSL players.
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The game must be balanced around the most elite levels. Looking at statistics in these lower levels are worthless, because most of them are not losing because of their race or because oracles have increased acceleration. They are losing because they are not good at the game and need to improve instead of asking for changes.
Your position doesn't make very much sense; what is more probable - that every single Terran ladder player has worse than average skills, or that Terran is harder to play at lower levels of play?
You might have been able to make a case for the former in WoL days, as the campaign encouraged new players to play Terran, but with HOTS campaign the majority of players are now Zerg so that argument no longer holds.
I agree that balance around the elite should be the priority, but that is no reason to ignore lower levels of play, especially considering some 95% of players live there.
I will admit I am biased as a Terran player, but unless you can discredit my position in some real way I feel my argument is sound. Many personalities (including high-level players, and casters on State of the Game) will agree that Terran has the greatest mechanical requirement, has the highest average in-game APM, and is most prone to wrist injuries. The last two statements are verifiable facts.
I don't blame my losses on balance, I am aware my play can always be improved. I also know that there is a very high probability that Terran is the hardest race to play in the average to above average skill bracket.
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On November 13 2013 11:28 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 11:21 Smigi wrote:On November 13 2013 11:19 Faust852 wrote:On November 13 2013 11:17 Smigi wrote:On November 13 2013 11:12 r691175002 wrote:On November 13 2013 10:45 Smigi wrote:
Its laughable to think people who are complaining really think this patch effects them. Most of you people aren't grandmaster, which means your micro, macro, and overall skill/mechanics aren't even good enough. So focus on improving your game to a point where these patches actually effect you. I never understood this point of view, given that the imbalance is far more pronounced at lower levels of play. Terran is significantly underrepresented as soon as you hit plat league, and it gets worse the further up you go. http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/race It's a simple understanding. If you lose to a tank push, is it because tanks are too strong? That is a stupid and ridiculous mindset. The game must be balanced around the most elite levels. Looking at statistics in these lower levels are worthless, because most of them are not losing because of their race or because oracles have increased acceleration. They are losing because they are not good at the game and need to improve instead of asking for changes. If starcraft 2 was only reserved to players that can train 10h/day, we would have heard of that. I do not understand some of you. You complain that starcraft 2 has a low skill ceiling, but say the game shouldn't be balanced around the elite level. There is a serious case of cognitive dissonance going around here. I still think they should balance the game for high master/gm. Not only top GSL players.
You are confusing what "balance" means. The point is that if it's balanced at the highest skill level, anyone losing below the top skill level is not losing due to imbalances, rather other factors.
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On November 13 2013 11:36 Zenbrez wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 11:28 Faust852 wrote:On November 13 2013 11:21 Smigi wrote:On November 13 2013 11:19 Faust852 wrote:On November 13 2013 11:17 Smigi wrote:On November 13 2013 11:12 r691175002 wrote:On November 13 2013 10:45 Smigi wrote:
Its laughable to think people who are complaining really think this patch effects them. Most of you people aren't grandmaster, which means your micro, macro, and overall skill/mechanics aren't even good enough. So focus on improving your game to a point where these patches actually effect you. I never understood this point of view, given that the imbalance is far more pronounced at lower levels of play. Terran is significantly underrepresented as soon as you hit plat league, and it gets worse the further up you go. http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/race It's a simple understanding. If you lose to a tank push, is it because tanks are too strong? That is a stupid and ridiculous mindset. The game must be balanced around the most elite levels. Looking at statistics in these lower levels are worthless, because most of them are not losing because of their race or because oracles have increased acceleration. They are losing because they are not good at the game and need to improve instead of asking for changes. If starcraft 2 was only reserved to players that can train 10h/day, we would have heard of that. I do not understand some of you. You complain that starcraft 2 has a low skill ceiling, but say the game shouldn't be balanced around the elite level. There is a serious case of cognitive dissonance going around here. I still think they should balance the game for high master/gm. Not only top GSL players. You are confusing what "balance" means. The point is that if it's balanced at the highest skill level, anyone losing below the top skill level is not losing due to imbalances, rather other factors.
Not really no. Because once you reach a certain level, you won't progress much more if you don't train a lot, like pros do.
Anyway, even if it's the case, I don't think this patch will balance anything at top level.
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On November 13 2013 11:29 r691175002 wrote:Show nested quote +The game must be balanced around the most elite levels. Looking at statistics in these lower levels are worthless, because most of them are not losing because of their race or because oracles have increased acceleration. They are losing because they are not good at the game and need to improve instead of asking for changes. Your position doesn't make very much sense; what is more probable - that every single Terran ladder player has worse than average skills, or that Terran is harder to play at lower levels of play? You might have been able to make a case for the former in WoL days, as the campaign encouraged new players to play Terran, but with HOTS campaign the majority of players are now Zerg so that argument no longer holds. I agree that balance around the elite should be the priority, but that is no reason to ignore lower levels of play, especially considering some 95% of players live there. I will admit I am biased as a Terran player, but unless you can discredit my position in some real way I feel my argument is sound. Many personalities (including high-level players, and casters on State of the Game) will agree that Terran has the greatest mechanical requirement, has the highest average in-game APM, and is most prone to wrist injuries. The last two statements are verifiable facts. I don't blame my losses on balance, I am aware my play can always be improved. I also know that there is a very high probability that Terran is the hardest race to play in the average to above average skill bracket.
If I understand your position correctly, you are stating that you agree with me with the exception that we should not neglect the bottom 95% of players?
It is impossible to produce a balanced game at the pro-tier level/grandmaster level if we are basing balance upon people who don't use hotkeys.
Your position does not make much sense to me sir, but I wish to make sense of it, and I would ask you to elaborate further. You cannot balance a game around the bronze/silver or gold level and expect that masters, grandmasters, and pro-tier games to be balanced. How is it possible to produce an eSport if we are balancing it around people who do not use hotkeys and hover 3,000 minerals?
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On November 13 2013 11:36 Zenbrez wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 11:28 Faust852 wrote:On November 13 2013 11:21 Smigi wrote:On November 13 2013 11:19 Faust852 wrote:On November 13 2013 11:17 Smigi wrote:On November 13 2013 11:12 r691175002 wrote:On November 13 2013 10:45 Smigi wrote:
Its laughable to think people who are complaining really think this patch effects them. Most of you people aren't grandmaster, which means your micro, macro, and overall skill/mechanics aren't even good enough. So focus on improving your game to a point where these patches actually effect you. I never understood this point of view, given that the imbalance is far more pronounced at lower levels of play. Terran is significantly underrepresented as soon as you hit plat league, and it gets worse the further up you go. http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/race It's a simple understanding. If you lose to a tank push, is it because tanks are too strong? That is a stupid and ridiculous mindset. The game must be balanced around the most elite levels. Looking at statistics in these lower levels are worthless, because most of them are not losing because of their race or because oracles have increased acceleration. They are losing because they are not good at the game and need to improve instead of asking for changes. If starcraft 2 was only reserved to players that can train 10h/day, we would have heard of that. I do not understand some of you. You complain that starcraft 2 has a low skill ceiling, but say the game shouldn't be balanced around the elite level. There is a serious case of cognitive dissonance going around here. I still think they should balance the game for high master/gm. Not only top GSL players. You are confusing what "balance" means. The point is that if it's balanced at the highest skill level, anyone losing below the top skill level is not losing due to imbalances, rather other factors.
Precisely my point. Said it better than I ever could.
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On November 13 2013 11:48 Smigi wrote:If I understand your position correctly, you are stating that you agree with me with the exception that we should not neglect the bottom 95% of players?
Your position does not make much sense to me sir, but I wish to make sense of it, and I would ask you to elaborate further. You cannot balance a game around the bronze/silver or gold level and expect that masters, grandmasters, and pro-tier games to be balanced. How is it possible to produce an eSport if we are balancing it around people who do not use hotkeys and hover 3,000 minerals?
I was taught that the easiest way to test an argument was to consider an extreme case.
Imagine that the game was perfectly balanced at the professional level, but bronze league was 90% Terran, and Masters was 5% Terran.
Would you still say the game was balanced? Would you tell diamond Terran players that they are simply worse than their protoss and zerg counterparts in Masters, and that they just need to play better? Is this a situation that would need to be resolved via patches?
Now I am not ridiculous enough to suggest that the current metagame is anything even remotely similar to the situation described above, but I would not consider the above example balanced and would expect patches.
I think its ridiculous to imply that game balance has zero impact on sub-masters level play. In fact, the effect of small changes should be far clearer in low level play simply because so many more games are played, whereas it is very hard to differentiate between T being stronger than Z as opposed to Innovation being better than Soulkey.
Blaming losses on balance is purely bad mindset, but the following statement is reasonably well supported by statistics:
If you were to take a random person off the street and force them to play 500 games as a single race, the terran players would have the lowest chance of reaching masters.
Is that fair?
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On November 13 2013 11:36 Zenbrez wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 11:28 Faust852 wrote:On November 13 2013 11:21 Smigi wrote:On November 13 2013 11:19 Faust852 wrote:On November 13 2013 11:17 Smigi wrote:On November 13 2013 11:12 r691175002 wrote:On November 13 2013 10:45 Smigi wrote:
Its laughable to think people who are complaining really think this patch effects them. Most of you people aren't grandmaster, which means your micro, macro, and overall skill/mechanics aren't even good enough. So focus on improving your game to a point where these patches actually effect you. I never understood this point of view, given that the imbalance is far more pronounced at lower levels of play. Terran is significantly underrepresented as soon as you hit plat league, and it gets worse the further up you go. http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/race It's a simple understanding. If you lose to a tank push, is it because tanks are too strong? That is a stupid and ridiculous mindset. The game must be balanced around the most elite levels. Looking at statistics in these lower levels are worthless, because most of them are not losing because of their race or because oracles have increased acceleration. They are losing because they are not good at the game and need to improve instead of asking for changes. If starcraft 2 was only reserved to players that can train 10h/day, we would have heard of that. I do not understand some of you. You complain that starcraft 2 has a low skill ceiling, but say the game shouldn't be balanced around the elite level. There is a serious case of cognitive dissonance going around here. I still think they should balance the game for high master/gm. Not only top GSL players. You are confusing what "balance" means. The point is that if it's balanced at the highest skill level, anyone losing below the top skill level is not losing due to imbalances, rather other factors.
If someone is asking for the game to be balanced for their skill level, they are asking it to make up for their mistakes.
Or as EGXenocider said: My perception of imbalance was doing more damage to my play than any slight imbalance that existed.
And where did he get such knowledge, you may ask? Jaedong.
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On November 13 2013 12:02 r691175002 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 11:48 Smigi wrote:If I understand your position correctly, you are stating that you agree with me with the exception that we should not neglect the bottom 95% of players?
Your position does not make much sense to me sir, but I wish to make sense of it, and I would ask you to elaborate further. You cannot balance a game around the bronze/silver or gold level and expect that masters, grandmasters, and pro-tier games to be balanced. How is it possible to produce an eSport if we are balancing it around people who do not use hotkeys and hover 3,000 minerals? I was taught that the easiest way to test an argument was to consider an extreme case. Imagine that the game was perfectly balanced at the professional level, but bronze league was 90% Terran, and Masters was 5% Terran. Would you still say the game was balanced? Would you tell diamond Terran players that they are simply worse than their protoss and zerg counterparts in Masters, and that they just need to play better? Is this a situation that would need to be resolved via patches? Now I am not ridiculous enough to suggest that the current metagame is anything even remotely similar to the situation described above, but I would not consider the above example balanced and would expect patches. I think its ridiculous to imply that game balance has zero impact on sub-masters level play. In fact, the effect of small changes should be far clearer in low level play simply because so many more games are played, whereas it is very hard to differentiate between T being stronger than Z as opposed to Innovation being better than Soulkey. Blaming losses on balance is purely bad mindset, but the following statement is reasonably well supported by statistics: If you were to take a random person off the street and force them to play 500 games as a single race, the terran players would have the lowest chance of reaching masters.Is that fair?
If the top 5% of terrans were performing very well, I feel that is fair.
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more gg more skill 
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Anyway you are discussing a point that doesn't even matter. The fact are that at the top level, things were balanced, and now Blizzard throw some stupid changes that will result in huge problems.
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Ironically I think the oracle was nerfed as the result of a metagame shift soon enough. Opponents seem to expect oracle much more now and are more well prepared for it, making not going oracles the better choice.
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EPT
