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[tell us how terran is meant to poke the front, scout for proxy pylons and check for a greedy third if protoss can simply build 1 oracle and kill the reaper? It was literally the only reliable way for terran to scout, and the reason why every pro terran opens reaper.
Figure it out. Just like every other player has had to when faced with a challenge in this game. Do I have the answer? No. Do I think these changes have ruined Terran? Despite what a lot of NA players will tell you, No.
Every MU has struggled at some point in time in this game, don't act like this isn't the same scenario.
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this guys a troll.
according to him you guys are retarded because you dont get ghosts to EMP the vipers that make your tanks useless.
so yeah... you should just ignore.
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On November 13 2013 10:07 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 10:05 Afterhours wrote:Here's the thing though: your statement doesn't hold any weight. That's called an opinion. Not fact. We'll have to agree to disagree. Or we'll just say your opinion is factually incorrect, making it factually incorrect.
Sure, as soon as you can make it a "we" that's not made up of biased Terrans.
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On November 13 2013 08:46 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 08:40 Blackfeather wrote:On November 13 2013 08:02 larse wrote:
I still don't understand why David Kim is so afraid of buffing terran. Let's just imagine for a second that sc2 was a beat-em-up with three characters. Now their publisher holds three huge preliminaries, distributed among three continents. At the end of the day half of the people who came through the three preliminaries play the same character. None of these guys manages to reach the finals with his character. But apparently the amount of player that are successful enough with exactly that character to get through the three qualifier in which every known pro-gamer of the world played are about as many, as the other players combined. In beat-em-ups you wouldnt want a buff for the character just because none of the guys who play him managed to get through the round of four (where 2/4 still played this character). You would be demanding a nerf, because apparently either the level of play that is needed to be successful enough to play among the top 16 of the world is lower, or the character is way more popular (e.g because of design or playstyle) among the top pros. Disclaimer: I dont want to state that the game is broken or that terran is broken, nor that terran doesnt require a high level of skill to be played at the highest level. I just want to point out that terran is doing more than fine in the context that code b, code s, and all the preliminaries are essentially one big tournament with numerous group stages and that wcs global is nothing but the top 16 of the tourney. Eight of the top 16 and two of the top four played terran, that is in no way a sign that the race needs a buff. Or points were gathered at 3 seasons and the first seasons had terrans performing better than others. Or do you want to argue, use Die4Ever's brilliant thread, that the last season contributed any terrans to the season's finals?
Can you link it please?
I am not sure what you are talking about. Do you mean that no new terrans became qualified during the last tourneys and that they were all qualified before? Might be (to late to look it up now, dont have the numbers in mind), but i dont see how having half of the players being qualified before the end of the season makes it more balanced.
Yes, terran had a wr of ~41% at WCS Global with a 14:20 record of 34 games played vs different races. Still Maru and Bomber arent known for their consistency and the only terran result from the ro32 that could be considered a surprise was Innovation's loss. Besides I doubt that you will find any (sub-)tournament where one race doesnt have 41% or less. Take for example the Zergs at the Premier league Korea Season 2. They played overall 13:28, resulting in a wr of <32%. Imbalance? Or just a small sample size with lots of random variables? Just a game where players take risks they cant calculate all the time because of "limited information".
But apparently loosing a wcs after winning the last one and 2/3 premier leagues is enough to justify a buff for some.
On a side note:
I am not all for the oracle buff after Toss won WCS. I see what they want to do but i dont see it working. What protoss as a race really needs is an overall rework, which has been discussed endlessly in the forum. Besides a change to the flyer-mechanics would be nice as well, i refer to Lalush's thread (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=433944).
On November 13 2013 10:06 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 10:00 Afterhours wrote:And just like that, any credibility you might've had was dashed to bits. And pretending my statement doesnt hold any weight makes you any more credible? lol. The irony. Yes, because Terran innovated the most in SC2, and it's certainly not the race which is spoon-fed a patch each time it runs into troubles.
oh, they did? You mean they actually tried out different compositions, tried to learn how and when to use all of their arsenal to maximum efficiency instead of only relying on timing pushes and drops? Apparently SC2 got a lot more interesting in the time i wasnt watching, so terrans now use more than the 4 (MMM SCV) in TvP and 5 units (MMMT/M SCV) in TvZ they used for all of wol?
Besides when did they ever run into trouble? I guess at the end of WoL, but guess what, the infestor luckily got nerved at the beginning of HotS.
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On November 13 2013 10:08 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
this guys a troll.
according to him you guys are retarded because you dont get ghosts to EMP the vipers that make your tanks useless.
so yeah... you should just ignore.
Lol Way to butcher what I said.
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On November 13 2013 10:08 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
this guys a troll.
according to him you guys are retarded because you dont get ghosts to EMP the vipers that make your tanks useless.
so yeah... you should just ignore.
Does TL actually have an ignore feature? I can't recall having seen one, useful though it would be.
User was warned for this post
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On November 13 2013 10:13 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 10:08 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
this guys a troll.
according to him you guys are retarded because you dont get ghosts to EMP the vipers that make your tanks useless.
so yeah... you should just ignore. Does TL actually have an ignore feature? I can't recall having seen one, useful though it would be.
Nope, but it has a report button if it makes you feel better.
User was warned for this post
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Simply ignore Probe / Drone / SCV portrait post 
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On November 13 2013 10:15 Porishan wrote:Simply ignore Probe / Drone / SCV portrait post
I literally scroll down threads only reading posts with significant portraits :D.
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On November 13 2013 09:56 Afterhours wrote:
God, I swear, Terrans. It's like you guys got too comfy in your EZmode early days of WoL, and now that you have to actually experiment (see: Work) and figure things out like the other races, the game is too hard/other races OP/terran sucks now, etc.
Such QQ.
Wow.
Oh right, lets just conveniently forget the BL/Infestor era. That was obviously EZ mode for Terrans and nobody experimented at all during that time (Gumiho doing multi-pronged auto turret harassment anyone?). And somehow, Blizzard didn't do ANYTHING about it for 9-10 months. You're so smart and totally not biased, I bow to you.
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Its laughable to think people who are complaining really think this patch effects them. Most of you people aren't grandmaster, which means your micro, macro, and overall skill/mechanics aren't even good enough. So focus on improving your game to a point where these patches actually effect you.
The only people who are allowed to 'Bitch' are top of the line players who lose by small little errors or advantages. It seems to me that most of you blame your shortcomings and losses to certain units and patches, when it reality its your sub-par mechanics and poor decision making.
Thought I'd drop some reality on these complainers.
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So after playing the patch more...here are my thoughts about mech (if you agree that's fine, disagree that's fine too, please say your reasons !)
I feel no difference at all with siege tanks. The buff was quite negligible and i don't think warrants the widow mine nerf (just my opinion, and this is coming from someone who doesn't use mines as heavily as other Terrans).
The armory change i do not feel helped mech one bit. Every single one of my mech games has played out exactly as it did before the patch, immortals still overperform vs tanks/mech.
I will say, the biggest issue i see with mech right now that is ignored is that most of my mech vs P games especially...i will be at most 2/0 vs Protoss 2/0/2 or Protoss just finished 3/0/3 upgrades. This is the reason why mech will continue to remain not as viable as bio.
Most games i win with "mech" in TvP are actually not tank based at all, or end up with mass banshee/viking/raven with a few tanks and lots of hellion production. The tank is in really bad shape right now vs Protoss (it has been for ages).
Everyone of us knows how important upgrades are, and the armory change does not do anything to address how early on in a game a meching Terran can begin their upgrades. I can be 1/1 as a bio Terran or Zerg/Protoss before a mech Terran even has their armory completed. I believe if blizzard wants to have more than just bio every game for Terran, they should reduce the price of the armory to brood war price (100/50).
Other than that, all of my mech games feel exactly the same, and i feel the only thing the armory change does is essentially buff vikings late game so you now have upgrades on them instead of 0/0 vikings. Of course, at this stage in the game things like storm/fungal/seeker ignore upgrades...so it's meh.
I honestly don't think this is a "better than nothing change" because if people are content with this change then i don't see blizzard ever doing any meaningful changes to improve mech.
Just my thoughts as someone that's meched in all 3 match-ups for over 2 years in SC2 now.
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On November 13 2013 10:36 kingcars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 09:56 Afterhours wrote:
God, I swear, Terrans. It's like you guys got too comfy in your EZmode early days of WoL, and now that you have to actually experiment (see: Work) and figure things out like the other races, the game is too hard/other races OP/terran sucks now, etc.
Such QQ.
Wow. Oh right, lets just conveniently forget the BL/Infestor era. That was obviously EZ mode for Terrans and nobody experimented at all during that time (Gumiho doing multi-pronged auto turret harassment anyone?). And somehow, Blizzard didn't do ANYTHING about it for 9-10 months. You're so smart and totally not biased, I bow to you.
Sorry but Zerg domination in the GSL started around 10/2012 and ended with the last WoL-GSL 03/2013, that's five months, not nine. How long was Terran undoubtly the no.1 race? I guess the two years from the release to that point. Sure they were on average not as dominant as Zerg was in the two they won, but GomTvT surely could compare (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Global_StarCraft_II_League_October/Code_S).
You can argue about the first HotS-WCS being Zerg favored, but Soulkey vs Innovation was 4:3, so really close and not what i would call domination, especially considering that it was a new game version and everything was still changing. Both players also have proven that they are top-notch.
It's also wrong that Blizzard didnt care. They patched fungal to 8 range and nerfed egg-health, which was not enough, but they still tried. They then waited for a season and released HotS, which "solved" the infestor problem.
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On November 13 2013 10:45 Smigi wrote:
Its laughable to think people who are complaining really think this patch effects them. Most of you people aren't grandmaster, which means your micro, macro, and overall skill/mechanics aren't even good enough. So focus on improving your game to a point where these patches actually effect you.
The only people who are allowed to 'Bitch' are top of the line players who lose by small little errors or advantages. It seems to me that most of you blame your shortcomings and losses to certain units and patches, when it reality its your sub-par mechanics and poor decision making.
Thought I'd drop some reality on these complainers.
Lot of people here are GM/close to GM. I don't think you realise what kind of players usually spend their time on TL.
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On November 13 2013 10:45 Smigi wrote:
Its laughable to think people who are complaining really think this patch effects them. Most of you people aren't grandmaster, which means your micro, macro, and overall skill/mechanics aren't even good enough. So focus on improving your game to a point where these patches actually effect you.
The only people who are allowed to 'Bitch' are top of the line players who lose by small little errors or advantages. It seems to me that most of you blame your shortcomings and losses to certain units and patches, when it reality its your sub-par mechanics and poor decision making.
Thought I'd drop some reality on these complainers.
Shut up, I hate this argument, it applies to more of the bronze players-gold players. Master level players can do a proxy oracle and fuck you up just fine.
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On November 13 2013 11:02 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 10:36 kingcars wrote:On November 13 2013 09:56 Afterhours wrote:
God, I swear, Terrans. It's like you guys got too comfy in your EZmode early days of WoL, and now that you have to actually experiment (see: Work) and figure things out like the other races, the game is too hard/other races OP/terran sucks now, etc.
Such QQ.
Wow. Oh right, lets just conveniently forget the BL/Infestor era. That was obviously EZ mode for Terrans and nobody experimented at all during that time (Gumiho doing multi-pronged auto turret harassment anyone?). And somehow, Blizzard didn't do ANYTHING about it for 9-10 months. You're so smart and totally not biased, I bow to you. Sorry but Zerg domination in the GSL started around 10/2012 and ended with the last WoL-GSL 03/2013, that's 5 months, not 9. How long was terran undoubtly the no.1 race? I guess the two years from the release to that point. Sure they were on average not as dominant as zerg was in the two they won, but GomTvT surely could compare (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Global_StarCraft_II_League_October/Code_S). You can argue about the first HotS-WCS being zerg favored, but Soulkey vs Innovation was 4:3, so really close and not what i would call domination, especially considering that it was a new game version and everything was still changing. Both players also have proven that they are top-notch. It's also wrong that Blizzard didnt care. They patched fungal to 8 range and nerfed egg-health, which was not enough, but they still tried. They then waited for a season and released HotS, which "solved" the infestor problem.
According to Aligulac, the Z domination started around May 2012. http://aligulac.com/reports/
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On November 13 2013 10:55 avilo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +So after playing the patch more...here are my thoughts about mech (if you agree that's fine, disagree that's fine too, please say your reasons !)
I feel no difference at all with siege tanks. The buff was quite negligible and i don't think warrants the widow mine nerf (just my opinion, and this is coming from someone who doesn't use mines as heavily as other Terrans).
The armory change i do not feel helped mech one bit. Every single one of my mech games has played out exactly as it did before the patch, immortals still overperform vs tanks/mech.
I will say, the biggest issue i see with mech right now that is ignored is that most of my mech vs P games especially...i will be at most 2/0 vs Protoss 2/0/2 or Protoss just finished 3/0/3 upgrades. This is the reason why mech will continue to remain not as viable as bio.
Most games i win with "mech" in TvP are actually not tank based at all, or end up with mass banshee/viking/raven with a few tanks and lots of hellion production. The tank is in really bad shape right now vs Protoss (it has been for ages).
Everyone of us knows how important upgrades are, and the armory change does not do anything to address how early on in a game a meching Terran can begin their upgrades. I can be 1/1 as a bio Terran or Zerg/Protoss before a mech Terran even has their armory completed. I believe if blizzard wants to have more than just bio every game for Terran, they should reduce the price of the armory to brood war price (100/50).
Other than that, all of my mech games feel exactly the same, and i feel the only thing the armory change does is essentially buff vikings late game so you now have upgrades on them instead of 0/0 vikings. Of course, at this stage in the game things like storm/fungal/seeker ignore upgrades...so it's meh.
I honestly don't think this is a "better than nothing change" because if people are content with this change then i don't see blizzard ever doing any meaningful changes to improve mech.
Just my thoughts as someone that's meched in all 3 match-ups for over 2 years in SC2 now.
agree 100%. Im only master but mech feels exactly the same. As far as Im concerned, this "tankbuff" is a slap in the face.
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On November 13 2013 11:04 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 10:45 Smigi wrote:
Its laughable to think people who are complaining really think this patch effects them. Most of you people aren't grandmaster, which means your micro, macro, and overall skill/mechanics aren't even good enough. So focus on improving your game to a point where these patches actually effect you.
The only people who are allowed to 'Bitch' are top of the line players who lose by small little errors or advantages. It seems to me that most of you blame your shortcomings and losses to certain units and patches, when it reality its your sub-par mechanics and poor decision making.
Thought I'd drop some reality on these complainers. Shut up, I hate this argument, it applies to more of the bronze players-gold players. Master level players can do a proxy oracle and fuck you up just fine.
"I hate this argument". Okay, just because you dislike something, doesn't make it incorrect or wrong.
I.e. Zerg players bitched all day in very early WoL days, but fruit dealer wins the GSL and Nestea wins the next. If the game was so awful back then, then how come they won against these 'odds'? If it was so bad for zerg back then, how come the best players in the world were able to circumvent it? Most zergs complaining those days had no right to complain because they still had much to improve on. As a zerg player back then, I fell into this stupid mindset as well. Thinking that I was not good or not doing well because roaches needed to have 2 armor again.
I can list examples endlessly. If you're not willing to reason and just want to rage, be my guest. It won't improve your situation.
And to respond to your argument. A grandmaster can "fuck up" a master level players proxy oracle just fine. Because he or she possess superior mechanics, game sense, scouting ability, macro, and unit control to defeat them.
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On November 13 2013 10:45 Smigi wrote:
Its laughable to think people who are complaining really think this patch effects them. Most of you people aren't grandmaster, which means your micro, macro, and overall skill/mechanics aren't even good enough. So focus on improving your game to a point where these patches actually effect you.
I never understood this point of view, given that the imbalance is far more pronounced at lower levels of play. Terran is significantly underrepresented as soon as you hit plat league, and it gets worse the further up you go.
http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/race
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On November 13 2013 11:02 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 10:36 kingcars wrote:On November 13 2013 09:56 Afterhours wrote:
God, I swear, Terrans. It's like you guys got too comfy in your EZmode early days of WoL, and now that you have to actually experiment (see: Work) and figure things out like the other races, the game is too hard/other races OP/terran sucks now, etc.
Such QQ.
Wow. Oh right, lets just conveniently forget the BL/Infestor era. That was obviously EZ mode for Terrans and nobody experimented at all during that time (Gumiho doing multi-pronged auto turret harassment anyone?). And somehow, Blizzard didn't do ANYTHING about it for 9-10 months. You're so smart and totally not biased, I bow to you. Sorry but Zerg domination in the GSL started around 10/2012 and ended with the last WoL-GSL 03/2013, that's 5 months, not 9. How long was terran undoubtly the no.1 race? I guess the two years from the release to that point. Sure they were on average not as dominant as zerg was in the two they won, but GomTvT surely could compare (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Global_StarCraft_II_League_October/Code_S). You can argue about the first HotS-WCS being zerg favored, but Soulkey vs Innovation was 4:3, so really close and not what i would call domination, especially considering that it was a new game version and everything was still changing. Both players also have proven that they are top-notch. It's also wrong that Blizzard didnt care. They patched fungal to 8 range and nerfed egg-health, which was not enough, but they still tried. They then waited for a season and released HotS, which "solved" the infestor problem.
You do realize that there is more to SC2 than the GSL, right? Only the top 5 Terrans or Protosses were ever able to make any noise (read: the ones mostly in GSL), while no-name foreign zergs were "upsetting" all other Korean Terrans and Protosses on a daily basis. And I'm being nice here, because the only Terrans that were able to do anything were the godlike-at-the-time Taeja and MVP coming out of nowhere with a new mech build nobody was prepared for. Anybody remember Hyun's 13 week reign on IPL Fight Club? It may have been longer than that but I gave up. I also remember several team league matches where neither team even bothered playing a non-Zerg player. And who can forget the games where Zerg would lose 100+ drones and still win? Then HoTS came out, Terran actually stood a chance for once, everyone cried, and now the two main weapons (Hellbat and Widow Mine) have been nerfed. GG.
Blizzard made a very weak attempt to "nerf" infestors, but they surely haven't skimped out on the significant Terran nerfs. Nerfed the hellbat to where it never sees play except for TvT, for example. But their "attempt" at fixing infestors didn't put a dent into that issue.
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EPT
