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On November 13 2013 08:44 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 08:17 xAdra wrote:On November 13 2013 08:02 larse wrote:
I still don't understand why David Kim is so afraid of buffing terran. I still don't understand why terrans are so hungry for buffs. The way I see it what terran needs is change, like making more strategies available, instead of making their units stronger in numeric terms. The reactions here from terrans are almost as bad as the 'give diretide' debacle from the dota 2 community What you say is the same as buffing other Terran units to the same strength of MMM, so that diversity will naturally emerge. The reason that there is no diversity is because beside MMM, other units are too weak in vs Z and vs P.
Helbat has uses in large scale situations, decent tank mostly (roaches and zealots are much better) but Helbats counter zealots pretty well in large scale situations.
Ravens are pretty unexplored, but I think maybe more viable than people think especially in the early stages. In TvT early raven isn't too uncommon.
Banshees are strictly harassment and shit in large scale battles, unless the opponent just forgets detection. (even then they barely do enough dps to justify the money sink)
Tanks are fairly good, just too immobile/vulnerable to melee units in high level play (talking about Korea professional level).
Thors are terrible and only good for zoning out mutas, but with good splits can trade pretty evenly. They are shit against any other unit in large scale situations.
Vikings are terrible against corruptors and phoenix.
Battlecuisers are even worse than carriers (with feedback they are even worse than paper).
However the balance issue is, can we all agree that terran has no overpowering tier 3 unit? (other than 3-3 MMM?) *which really isn't.
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I'm not opposed to unit tweaks as a method of trying to shake up a metagame that has become undoubtedly stale in several matchups, but I don't see the justification for nerfing the widow mine so heavily with so little to compensate for it considering that TvZ is looking pretty much dead even these days. The tank buff in tandem with the combo mech upgrades could potentially make tank-based play work in the midgame, but as the game goes on and the muta cloud grows or the Zerg starts to get viper tech going, things will get ugly. And of course, those things will happen at a faster rate because tank production and tank-based aggression both move much slower than their widow mine counterpart.
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On November 13 2013 00:32 9-BiT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 08:57 awesomoecalypse wrote:On November 12 2013 08:54 SamirDuran wrote:
didn't DK saw what an oracle can be when it was putted in the hands of good protoss players such as sOs? You mean getting picked off or shut down almost right away in nearly every game? If the motivation behind the Oracle buff is that it is too slow and fragile for even very skilled players to consistently keep it alive, then sOs' games were a decent demonstration of that being the case. Of course, I think basing everything one one tournament is more than a little sily. But if you look around at Protoss play in general on the pro level, Oracles as a unit that remains alive and active throughout the game isn't really something we see almost ever. You keep saying this but you really don't understand anything. The oracle forces terran to turtle, and wait until protoss is at its strongest to move out on the map. I don't give a fuck how much damage it does, it is the impact on the terran's play.
Yea make 1 turret in each mineral line so much turtle
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oracle speed = 4
reaper speed = 3.75
so in tandem with the MSC (queen patch 2.0), you can simply build an oracle and shut down terran's only early game scout and harass option. mass reapers is extinct, along with hellion/banshee, tank pushes and every terran all-in from WoL. protoss players, if there's anything more we can do to make this game easy enough for you, please don't hesitate to ask.
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On November 13 2013 09:40 SHODAN wrote:
oracle speed = 4
reaper speed = 3.75
so in tandem with the MSC (queen patch 2.0), you can simply build an oracle and shut down terran's only early game scout and harass option. mass reapers is extinct, along with hellion/banshee, tank pushes and every terran all-in from WoL. protoss players, if there's anything more we can do to make this game easy enough for you, please don't hesitate to ask.
pretty sure the reaper is in toss base before you can get an oracle.
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On November 13 2013 09:40 SHODAN wrote:
oracle speed = 4
reaper speed = 3.75
so in tandem with the MSC (queen patch 2.0), you can simply build an oracle and shut down terran's only early game scout and harass option. mass reapers is extinct, along with hellion/banshee, tank pushes and every terran all-in from WoL. protoss players, if there's anything more we can do to make this game easy enough for you, please don't hesitate to ask.
woah now terrans gets paranoid . you think protoss would use 30 energy+ to kill 1 reaper ? you think thats why protoss make oracle to kill reapers ?
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On November 13 2013 09:42 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 09:40 SHODAN wrote:
oracle speed = 4
reaper speed = 3.75
so in tandem with the MSC (queen patch 2.0), you can simply build an oracle and shut down terran's only early game scout and harass option. mass reapers is extinct, along with hellion/banshee, tank pushes and every terran all-in from WoL. protoss players, if there's anything more we can do to make this game easy enough for you, please don't hesitate to ask. pretty sure the reaper is in toss base before you can get an oracle.
yes, so reapers will have one opportunity to scout before they are completely useless. multiple reaper plays are dead now (think of Gumiho vs Avenge on Tristram, GSTL all-star match, or Gumiho vs Alicia on Polar Night).
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On November 13 2013 09:42 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 09:40 SHODAN wrote:
oracle speed = 4
reaper speed = 3.75
so in tandem with the MSC (queen patch 2.0), you can simply build an oracle and shut down terran's only early game scout and harass option. mass reapers is extinct, along with hellion/banshee, tank pushes and every terran all-in from WoL. protoss players, if there's anything more we can do to make this game easy enough for you, please don't hesitate to ask. woah now terrans gets paranoid . you think protoss would use 30 energy+ to kill 1 reaper ? you think thats why protoss make oracle to kill reapers ?
you would use 30+ energy to kill mass reapers.
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On November 13 2013 08:44 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 08:17 xAdra wrote:On November 13 2013 08:02 larse wrote:
I still don't understand why David Kim is so afraid of buffing terran. I still don't understand why terrans are so hungry for buffs. The way I see it what terran needs is change, like making more strategies available, instead of making their units stronger in numeric terms. The reactions here from terrans are almost as bad as the 'give diretide' debacle from the dota 2 community What you say is the same as buffing other Terran units to the same strength of MMM, so that diversity will naturally emerge. The reason that there is no diversity is because beside MMM, other units are too weak in vs Z and vs P.
Or maybe because one thing is clearly better/too good.
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On November 13 2013 09:40 SHODAN wrote:
oracle speed = 4
reaper speed = 3.75
so in tandem with the MSC (queen patch 2.0), you can simply build an oracle and shut down terran's only early game scout and harass option. mass reapers is extinct, along with hellion/banshee, tank pushes and every terran all-in from WoL. protoss players, if there's anything more we can do to make this game easy enough for you, please don't hesitate to ask.
Yeah, maybe. Could you...could you just lay down on the ground? So other players who actually want to figure things out have room to play.
God, I swear, Terrans. It's like you guys got too comfy in your EZmode early days of WoL, and now that you have to actually experiment (see: Work) and figure things out like the other races, the game is too hard/other races OP/terran sucks now, etc.
Such QQ.
Wow.
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On November 13 2013 08:25 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 08:07 Apoteosis wrote:On November 13 2013 07:43 Chaggi wrote:On November 13 2013 07:36 sns3rsam wrote:
Not sure what the huge uproar about oracles are about. Sure they increased the speed and acceleration but it is not like it is to the point where Terrans can't win anymore. I would be VERY surprised if Terrans can't adjust to this. Is building turrets and a viking or so that much more of an investment than building a stargate and an oracle? I highly doubt that stargate is going to be any more useful after the initial oracle now than before the patch. Like what ZeromuS said, investing in an oracle and stargate delays toss AoE significantly. That is a lot of gas invested in the early game. And for people who say that oracles will flat out kill you if you are not prepared, well isn't that what a strategy game is all about? Scouting and being prepared? Why do we need cookie cutter builds that account for every single possibility? I for one am actually impressed with the state of protoss now. They have multiple strategies and builds they can do across all matchups unlike terrans where bio is the predominant build. I feel the siege tank change is kind of disappointing. I feel that they should have implemented the 2.7 attack speed instead of 2.8. I feel Blizzard is playing too cautiously with mech. Because pre-patch oracles were awesome enough. Good players kept them alive. Bad players lost them. Now bad players will keep them alive. It's not about building defenses to an oracle but How many all in's Protoss has and how limited Terran is in the first 10 minutes of the game. There is no consistent all in that you can do. An 11/11 will die if the Protoss isn't greedy and makes a zealot and doesn't lose the MSC. There is literally nothing else. That's what the Protoss players not seem to understand. There is no option early game, late game is brutally hard and midgame is the only chance Terran really has to do damage. Now that you have to play extra safe because of the faster oracle cause proxies and oracle play is just stronger, midgame lasts a shorter amount of time before Protoss gets a super deathball that's hard to beat. Simple as that. This was super telling when you watch pro gamers stream, and when Bomber vs sOs in his first person view. Now you have an improved tank to try some timings. Plus, they will become super useful if toss went for stargate instead of robo. AND there are many timings out there in the first place, like marine hellion. If you gonna expect some magical timing attack in which you dont lose too much economy and if you do no damage, it is fine, it is NOT a timing attack: it is either some harrassement, or it is merely poking. And I am telling you a secret: sOs went for oracles, not because he was expecting to do some damage (if you kill some scvs fine, but if dont, whatever), but because he was forcing marine production instead of marauder production, so that his transition to templar tech would be smooth and more powerful, because marines die instantly to storms, and cannot kite so well. You see why Maru prefers marauders instead of marines? Because, they can endure storms better and they can kite zealots so much better with concussive shells. Oh yes, that improved tank that does SO MUCH MORE. It's going to completely change the TvP MU as we know it. Yup. That's it. Marine hellion? Which if you have a MSC in position, it doesn't do damage like an oracle and can easily die to counter pushes? I'm not sure if Protoss understands that ever since HoTS came out and MSC came with an easymode cannon button. And sOs invested heavily into oracles, but still got templar tech out fast enough for the medivac timing. I quoted ffadicted about "HUGE investment, you definitely have to do damage to not die to a stim timing." because that's simply not true. And here's another secret, opening oracles doesn't mean the Terran is forced to make heavy heavy marines.
The same way that 4gates die to 2 bunkers in position...
Come on guys, just give it a try. Try to do something different, instead of whining like a 5-year-old kid.
And by the way, you do not need to KILL SCVS in order to judge the effectiveness of an oracle harrasement. If your opponent makes like 2 turrets and you kill some marines, you are fine, although your transition should be more accurate. If you can't transition sharp enough, yes, you will die against a stim timing.
And you know, there are other units than marine, medivac, marauder. Use your tech tree 
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Protoss is hilariously broken right now. I honestly don't want to ladder at this point
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On November 13 2013 09:56 Afterhours wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 09:40 SHODAN wrote:
oracle speed = 4
reaper speed = 3.75
so in tandem with the MSC (queen patch 2.0), you can simply build an oracle and shut down terran's only early game scout and harass option. mass reapers is extinct, along with hellion/banshee, tank pushes and every terran all-in from WoL. protoss players, if there's anything more we can do to make this game easy enough for you, please don't hesitate to ask. Yeah, maybe. Could you...could you just lay down on the ground? So other players who actually want to figure things out have room to play.
God, I swear, Terrans. It's like you guys got too comfy in your EZmode early days of WoL, and now that you have to actually experiment (see: Work) and figure things out like the other races, the game is too hard/other races OP/terran sucks now, etc. Such QQ. Wow.
And just like that, any credibility you might've had was dashed to bits.
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And just like that, any credibility you might've had was dashed to bits.
And pretending my statement doesnt hold any weight makes you any more credible? lol. The irony.
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Watching Korean terrans stream, it's surprising how bad the mine is. Banes can just roll over mines in a clump and only a couple explode, not enough to make a dent in their numbers. But I don't see any BMT compositions yet.
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On November 13 2013 10:00 Afterhours wrote:And pretending my statement doesnt hold any weight makes you any more credible? lol. The irony.
Here's the thing though: your statement doesn't hold any weight.
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Here's the thing though: your statement doesn't hold any weight.
That's called an opinion. Not fact. We'll have to agree to disagree.
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On November 13 2013 10:00 Afterhours wrote:And pretending my statement doesnt hold any weight makes you any more credible? lol. The irony.
tell us how terran is meant to poke the front, scout for proxy pylons and check for a greedy third if protoss can simply build 1 oracle and kill the reaper? It was literally the only reliable way for terran to scout, the only available unit that could avoid stalkers.
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On November 13 2013 10:00 Afterhours wrote:And pretending my statement doesnt hold any weight makes you any more credible? lol. The irony.
Yes, because Terran innovated the most in SC2, and it's certainly not the race which is spoon-fed a patch each time it runs into troubles.
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On November 13 2013 10:05 Afterhours wrote:That's called an opinion. Not fact. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Or we'll just say your opinion is factually incorrect, making it factually incorrect.
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EPT
