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United Kingdom12033 Posts
On November 13 2013 06:35 A.Alm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 06:05 Qikz wrote:
Watching streams is hilarious because all these terrans are too stubborn to get turrets despite scouting double gas every single time.
Turrets are only 100 minerals guys, don't complain about balance and build turrets like I used to as mech. Hehe so true man! getting an ebay and two turrets at each mineral line is only 325 gp's, also u can get the attack uppg for only 100/100! 425/100 recources for something that does absolutely nothing against anything except for oracles (sentry/immortal allin, stalker allin, the list goes on)
Turrets help not only in the early game against both DTs and Oracles, but they're also useful lategame. Think of it as an investment.
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On November 13 2013 06:05 Qikz wrote:
Watching streams is hilarious because all these terrans are too stubborn to get turrets despite scouting double gas every single time.
Turrets are only 100 minerals guys, don't complain about balance and build turrets like I used to as mech.
What's hilarious is how you completely fail to understand the huge difference for the build order it makes to spend 425 minerals—not even counting missing mining time—on EB + 3 turrets when playing bio. You're deluded if you think you can afford blind Turrets upon scouting dual gas (which means absolutely nothing in itself).
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On November 13 2013 06:38 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 06:35 A.Alm wrote:On November 13 2013 06:05 Qikz wrote:
Watching streams is hilarious because all these terrans are too stubborn to get turrets despite scouting double gas every single time.
Turrets are only 100 minerals guys, don't complain about balance and build turrets like I used to as mech. Hehe so true man! getting an ebay and two turrets at each mineral line is only 325 gp's, also u can get the attack uppg for only 100/100! 425/100 recources for something that does absolutely nothing against anything except for oracles (sentry/immortal allin, stalker allin, the list goes on) Turrets help not only in the early game against both DTs and Oracles, but they're also useful lategame. Think of it as an investment. =
425 mineral investment in very early game is really huge...
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On November 13 2013 06:40 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 06:05 Qikz wrote:
Watching streams is hilarious because all these terrans are too stubborn to get turrets despite scouting double gas every single time.
Turrets are only 100 minerals guys, don't complain about balance and build turrets like I used to as mech. What's hilarious is how you completely fail to understand the huge difference for the build order it makes to spend 425 minerals—not even counting missing mining time—on EB + 3 turrets when playing bio. You're deluded if you think you can afford blind Turrets upon scouting dual gas (which means absolutely nothing in itself).
Thats why DWF is the king hahaha. Can't agree more it works when you are in Bronze or even Gold player but when you are doing a Legitimate build that will SIGNIFICANTLY kill your Mid game and everything Subsequently forward..............
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On November 13 2013 05:34 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 05:21 CutTheEnemy wrote:Tanks feel much more powerful in low numbers now. They fire 21 times in a minute now compared to 20 times pre-patch. Sorry man, its placebo. Your tanks are the same as ever, they just gave their guns and armor manufacturing contract to the same people they get their aircraft from to save some money along the way. But they fire twice in 3 seconds instead of only once. Ever consider that?
That's true, gotta consider that. Very minute change though, since it's .2 seconds sooner. I don't know anything that happens in the game in .2 seconds that the tank can't wait to shoot for. .5 seconds maybe, but .2?
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About the "build a turret"
When you guys struggled against the 1-1-1 in WOL it's the same as if we would have said "if you scout a terran on one base just build a forge and cannons in each mineral line"
is exactly the same thing as when u say "just build turrets" when we see protoss taking two gases.
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On November 13 2013 06:40 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 06:05 Qikz wrote:
Watching streams is hilarious because all these terrans are too stubborn to get turrets despite scouting double gas every single time.
Turrets are only 100 minerals guys, don't complain about balance and build turrets like I used to as mech. What's hilarious is how you completely fail to understand the huge difference for the build order it makes to spend 425 minerals—not even counting missing mining time—on EB + 3 turrets when playing bio. You're deluded if you think you can afford blind Turrets upon scouting dual gas (which means absolutely nothing in itself).
I guarantee that protoss will rush for detection upon scouting a Terran gas opening. That can mean a cannon in each mineral line for a Twilght opening. Sometimes that ends up being a waste when no mine drop comes. But we have to do it anyway.
The good thing is that the eBay isn't useless. And a turret in just one mineral line frees up your marines to defend elsewhere.
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On November 13 2013 06:38 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 06:35 A.Alm wrote:On November 13 2013 06:05 Qikz wrote:
Watching streams is hilarious because all these terrans are too stubborn to get turrets despite scouting double gas every single time.
Turrets are only 100 minerals guys, don't complain about balance and build turrets like I used to as mech. Hehe so true man! getting an ebay and two turrets at each mineral line is only 325 gp's, also u can get the attack uppg for only 100/100! 425/100 recources for something that does absolutely nothing against anything except for oracles (sentry/immortal allin, stalker allin, the list goes on) Turrets help not only in the early game against both DTs and Oracles, but they're also useful lategame. Think of it as an investment.
lol getting 4 turrets before 7-8 minutes is pretty bad I think. Imagine how bad you die to warpgate timings after investing 425 in turrets before the 7-8 minute mark...
well just see how the koreans deal with it.
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Russian Federation1016 Posts
On November 13 2013 06:46 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 06:38 Qikz wrote:On November 13 2013 06:35 A.Alm wrote:On November 13 2013 06:05 Qikz wrote:
Watching streams is hilarious because all these terrans are too stubborn to get turrets despite scouting double gas every single time.
Turrets are only 100 minerals guys, don't complain about balance and build turrets like I used to as mech. Hehe so true man! getting an ebay and two turrets at each mineral line is only 325 gp's, also u can get the attack uppg for only 100/100! 425/100 recources for something that does absolutely nothing against anything except for oracles (sentry/immortal allin, stalker allin, the list goes on) Turrets help not only in the early game against both DTs and Oracles, but they're also useful lategame. Think of it as an investment. = 425 mineral investment in very early game is really huge...
Don't forget a lost mining time. It's not big, but significant: three scvs not mining in the early game.
Meanwhile Putin pays a visit to South Korea. Russian quota in GSL-2014 confirmed!
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1) tank buff is useless
2) mech upgrades buff will make sky terran stronger off transitions but it is still just as hard to get there so there wont be sky terran except in TvT.
3) protoss very stronk
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On November 13 2013 06:10 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 05:34 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 04:49 Snusmumriken wrote:On November 13 2013 04:45 Zealously wrote:On November 13 2013 04:43 Snusmumriken wrote:
So does anyone actually notice the tankdifference? as a pure mecher ive noticed zero, nill, squat, nothing, no way jose, not a thing. I believe a few people in this thread were talking about how the difference was quite noticeable in certain situations And I dont believe a single one of them plays terran. I played tons of games today as Terran and meched in ZvT on Derelicted, New StarStation and Vestige. Can't tell whether it's the upgrades or just the fact that none of my opponents was clever enough to go Vipers (though I faced Broodlords and Ultras), but just from how it felt tanks felt quite good against roaches and swarm hosts. I think especially against the latter the little buff shows, since there is really a difference in amount of shots you get off against locusts. Not sure if it is enough to make Mech a real viable macro option, since blinding cloud just stomps you anytime you are not well-spread (and chances are that you sometimes are, since you need to move at some point). But yeah, I think the difference (of both buffs together at least) is noticeable. While I haven't yet noticed a huge difference in my mine play (sometimes mutas are a little less softened from the looks of it, but all my opponents still behave the same way when engaging mines - try not to run into them and when they do it really hurts them). But haven't played around with bio too much today, only on Alterzim, and there I don't mine push but just shiftclick medivacs for 40mins and hope my opponent dies before I have to take a 5th which is basically impossible if he is any good with mutas. What league are you? The reason Im asking is because all the things you mentioned, tanks were already good against. The real problems with mech has never been roaches lol, the problem with mech is that it has superhardcounters in vipers and almost all things protoss as well as the tanks being shitty in lownumbers and when unsieged. Theyve always been good when you got 20 of them and siege up and avoid hardcounters. Except if you play vs protoss. I should know, I play master mech.
I'm playing around high diamond and low masters on my unranked MMR where I play my Terran games. (though I guess it would be higher if I wouldn't leave any matchup I'm not interested playing)
About the roaches/swarm host part...
I could find tons and tons of comments of people complaining about Swarm Hosts "hardcountering" tanks. And roachbased play is basically -THE- standard approach against Mech, so I don't think that roaches are all-out bad and that countering them is a nonfactor why Mech has not been working.
In fact, even amongst pros you will find the one or other comment (e.g. some Terran on Meta) that say that one of Mech's biggest problems are roach timings.
Yeah, I totally agree that tanks have been good against those units to begin with in combat. Now they are feel even better. Which means you need less of them to do this job and can more easily transtition into the counters to the Vipers and Broodlords and have the one or other extra support unit for your tanks. Or invest more into your harass. Or do a stronger timing.
Edit: but yeah, I guess one isn't even allowed to say that it feels a bit better to play Mech around here. Even if you point out that it's probably still not strong enough for highlevel TvZ (and TvP), it's simply too hard for some guys to admit that the whole world and david kim are not trying to destroy Terran.
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I think if they removed the E-Bay Requirement for Turrets things would look on decent footing when it comes to the garbage that is Oracles.......
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On November 13 2013 06:38 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 06:35 A.Alm wrote:On November 13 2013 06:05 Qikz wrote:
Watching streams is hilarious because all these terrans are too stubborn to get turrets despite scouting double gas every single time.
Turrets are only 100 minerals guys, don't complain about balance and build turrets like I used to as mech. Hehe so true man! getting an ebay and two turrets at each mineral line is only 325 gp's, also u can get the attack uppg for only 100/100! 425/100 recources for something that does absolutely nothing against anything except for oracles (sentry/immortal allin, stalker allin, the list goes on) Turrets help not only in the early game against both DTs and Oracles, but they're also useful lategame. Think of it as an investment.
Except everything you do earlygame has a snowball effect. ITs no problem affording turrets when youre on 3 bases but starting with that shit is horrible. You will at best break even EVEN if the protoss goes oracles. Thats the sad part, protoss can do literally all they want its all low risk high reward.
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On November 13 2013 06:50 Salient wrote:
I guarantee that protoss will rush for detection upon scouting a Terran gas opening. Sometimes that ends up being a waste when no mine drop comes. But we have to do it anyway.
The good thing is that the eBay isn't useless. And a turret in just one mineral line frees up your marines to defend elsewhere.
Except that Observers are extremely useful by midgame to spot enemy movements, and overall can scout extra stuff, so they're never a waste. Besides, they're fully incorporated into optimized Protoss build orders, while building EB + 3 Turrets is a disruption of any Terran build order. So the comparison isn't solid.
Yes, the EB isn't useless for bio, but outside of builds which semi-voluntarily get it fast, you don't want it as quick as that. Oracles have much more impact on Terran's early game than Mines have on Protoss' one.
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Canada13407 Posts
On November 13 2013 06:50 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 06:40 TheDwf wrote:On November 13 2013 06:05 Qikz wrote:
Watching streams is hilarious because all these terrans are too stubborn to get turrets despite scouting double gas every single time.
Turrets are only 100 minerals guys, don't complain about balance and build turrets like I used to as mech. What's hilarious is how you completely fail to understand the huge difference for the build order it makes to spend 425 minerals—not even counting missing mining time—on EB + 3 turrets when playing bio. You're deluded if you think you can afford blind Turrets upon scouting dual gas (which means absolutely nothing in itself). I guarantee that protoss will rush for detection upon scouting a Terran gas opening. That can mean a cannon in each mineral line for a Twilght opening. Sometimes that ends up being a waste when no mine drop comes. But we have to do it anyway. The good thing is that the eBay isn't useless. And a turret in just one mineral line frees up your marines to defend elsewhere.
Um, no protoss doesnt. And if you do you are killing your midgame, like a terran does. What protoss does when looking for mine opening is gas into marines without reaper and no cc. Then hopefully the build includes something like a robo. Or a reactor no cc and then you poke the ramp and see not 3 marines when there should be 3 of them.
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From what I'm reading from terrans here, seems like nobody knows how to adjust their builds on the fly based on scouting lol
Not surprised tbh... You have the best early scouting unit in the game, use it lol These things SHOULD and WILL kill you if you don't scout and change your build appropriately.
So many pros put down reactive cannons in mineral lines, stop b*tching about reactive turrets tbh
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Protoss is strong if you play for the mid to late game.
Like Dustin said Terran is strongest in the early game. 2 rax all ins are my go to build now TvP. It straight up kills 2 gas Protoss builds.
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On November 13 2013 04:05 Afterhours wrote:
Reading the comments from people in this thread....
Why are any of you butthurt about these changes at all? You do know that the NA region is a joke in skill compared to other regions right? So any idea of "balance" you might have is probably weaksauce. Until we start seeing NA foreigners dominating the esports scene, none of us have any right to say that these changes are retarded.
It's really no surprise that the NA region is bad at Esports. You're all too busy whining and bitching about mundane bullshit instead of figuring out what you can do to improve your game, explore new strats for your race, be a better gamer, etc. Nah, instead people give up and leave ship for another game. The reason why you find this game so frustrating when it comes to balancing, is because you suck, and that's because you give up at the slightest sign of resistance. "Fuck this game. So glad I installed DOTA 2, blah blah etc." Get over yourselves.
I can't believe people think the Siege Tank AS buff is weak. It just goes to show how out of touch most of these players are when it comes to long, thought-out, balance decisions. It's like you think Blizzard just dropped pieces of paper into a bucket with certain nerfs/buffs and picked a handful of them out.
IMO, you're lazy if you think these changes ruined the game for you.
Sorry, but I have a life. I can't play Starcraft 2 all day every day, I'll never be a GM or a professional. I have a job, I go to school, I have a gf, and I like to play Starcraft because it's fun, and because part of me wishes I could be a nerd baller  I also don't have so much talent in my fingers that I can win at a high level regardless of not practicing (like some people can), and I have accepted that fact and am okay with it.
To me, and a lot of people like me, what Blizzard does might not affect "balance", but it certainly affects the options of what we can do in game in order to win and have fun at our humble, casual-gamer level. I have been of the opinion for a long time now that SC2 was a lot more fun earlier on in its lifespan, and it's been sad to see that Blizzards tinkering around with buffs and nerfs have reduced the game to a shadow of its former glory (in terms of fun, not balance), which even that was a shadow of a former game, as in BW.
If you come and give me a life where I don't have to worry about responsibility and I can practice Starcraft 2 every day in the hopes of one day becoming a professional player, then maybe someday I can get to a level where balance actually affects me. Until then, I'll be worried about how fun the game is, whether or not I can blast Zerg and Protoss aliens into gobbs of colorful goo with siege tanks and battlecruisers instead of just marines, and whether or not I can play 1 base and 2 base play instead of just playing NR15 3 base with a bit of harassment prior to that in the same, repetitive cycle over and over and over again.
TL;DR - What most of us are complaining about is that the game has gotten stale, and that this patch does not help, and telling us to play more and practice more when a lot of us play this game for recreation only doesn't help.
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First game I play.. Banshee opening into Mech by both my opponent and I. Didn't even bother trying to go Marine-Tank or Bio cus Mech is just far superior now in TvT.
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United Kingdom12033 Posts
On November 13 2013 06:51 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 06:38 Qikz wrote:On November 13 2013 06:35 A.Alm wrote:On November 13 2013 06:05 Qikz wrote:
Watching streams is hilarious because all these terrans are too stubborn to get turrets despite scouting double gas every single time.
Turrets are only 100 minerals guys, don't complain about balance and build turrets like I used to as mech. Hehe so true man! getting an ebay and two turrets at each mineral line is only 325 gp's, also u can get the attack uppg for only 100/100! 425/100 recources for something that does absolutely nothing against anything except for oracles (sentry/immortal allin, stalker allin, the list goes on) Turrets help not only in the early game against both DTs and Oracles, but they're also useful lategame. Think of it as an investment. lol getting 4 turrets before 7-8 minutes is pretty bad I think. Imagine how bad you die to warpgate timings after investing 425 in turrets before the 7-8 minute mark... well just see how the koreans deal with it.
4 turrets?
First game I play.. Banshee opening into Mech by both my opponent and I. Didn't even bother trying to go Marine-Tank or Bio cus Mech is just far superior now in TvT.
The mech change makes very little difference to bio in TvT. It just means the bio player can no longer lololol a-move into a tank line with no thought and expect to win every time for free. The air thing also isn't a big deal as you should have 3-3 marines when you're switching to air anyway and 3-3 marines are pretty good vs air or so I hear.
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EPT
