EPTHotS Balance Update - November 11 - Page 42
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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Ctone23
United States1839 Posts
On November 13 2013 04:32 awesomoecalypse wrote: Vikings with decent upgrades can zone out Vipers really well, so the combined mech/air attack upgrades should help meching players hold off Vipers. Yea... in all fairness my initial post was a bit catty. I hope it plays out to where mech is at least used more often. I get tired of having to play bio all the time, too much apm for this old body  | ||
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Snusmumriken
Sweden1717 Posts
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 13 2013 04:43 Snusmumriken wrote: So does anyone actually notice the tankdifference? as a pure mecher ive noticed zero, nill, squat, nothing, no way jose, not a thing. I believe a few people in this thread were talking about how the difference was quite noticeable in certain situations | ||
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Snusmumriken
Sweden1717 Posts
On November 13 2013 04:45 Zealously wrote: I believe a few people in this thread were talking about how the difference was quite noticeable in certain situations And I dont believe a single one of them plays terran. | ||
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xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
On November 13 2013 04:49 Snusmumriken wrote: And I dont believe a single one of them plays terran. i belive no real gosu terran would want to play such a "mech" style . on topic : great changes thumb up for every1 of them | ||
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 13 2013 04:49 Snusmumriken wrote: And I dont believe a single one of them plays terran. I don't believe you play Terran either funny how that works | ||
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Prog455
Denmark970 Posts
On November 13 2013 01:50 Pirfiktshon wrote: I would not be surprised to see A lot of Foreign Terran Players Resign and Retire in reaction to this. I really would like to know what they think they are accomplishing by doing this as others have pointed out they wanted Diversity in the match up. Instead they traded one consistent composition for another kinda backwards is it not? I'm sorry to tell you but you are a moron. Even though there is a big fuzz about this patch it is nothing compared to how bad it was at the end of WoL. If you managed to stay with this game through BL/Infestor era, changes are that you actually like this game, and won't whine like a bitch over nothing. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 13 2013 04:52 Zealously wrote: I don't believe you play Terran either funny how that works This thread has gone to full amazing: Poster 1: "I don't notice any difference in the tanks" Poster 2:"Some people have said they are pretty strong in the right situations" Poster 1:"those people are fucking liars!" That some high level shit right there. | ||
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GrimEpilogue
Netherlands4 Posts
On November 13 2013 01:48 PPN wrote: Serious genuine question, not sarcasm or anything : how do you think Oracle could be used to deal with creep? I mean it costs so much energy to detect and activate beam, I'm not convinced you can clean much or very often with what remains of energy. I'd be inclined to think a void ray is better for that kind of job if you can react to tumors before they burrow or just a stalker and an obs. No worries mate- the problem with the Voidray is that it's a slow and bulky unit that requires an observer on its back to clean creep spread. In short- you'll get a 275/225 unit whose damage output is relatively low and has a hard time escaping from defensive maneuvers without sacrificing a large portion of your efficiency by fleeing early. (Note: Creep cleaning means you're on creep- thus fast enemy units.) The problem with the oracle is energy. That's it. It's a fast as tits unit with immense damage output that can potentially provide its own detection- it costs 150/150 (172/225 if you want an observer to up your clean up frequency). The speed of an oracle is so absurd, in part due to this patch, you can actually continue cleaning even as defensive measures are being taken against you, by adding more micro-intensive unit control. So what's the creep cleaning dynamic? Creep tumors are spread en masse and multiply quite quickly (unless you're constantly pressing and forcing your opponent to adapt their Queen use)- they're all connected so Zerg units can be allocated at an alarming pace. No matter how fast your unit, you will be chased away. So not only is speed important to get in and out- you also need raw DPS so that you're not merely cleaning half a tumor stack without actually reducing creep spread. Zerg units that will chase you out are a) hydras b) mutas. Hydra DPS will deny a VR escape (too slow to run, and DPS counters its bulky nature) if caught / Mutas are much faster than VRs. Hydras are slower than oracles, even on creep- and muta speed is matched due to the new patch. In this case the oracle wins clearly. Then again- e=0.5t+50-b(1.9t+25), e=energy / t=time in seconds / b = 0 for pulsar off, 1 for pulsar on, 50 = starting energy. Adding the -50 energy for anti-stealth vision you do indeed get significant limitations. If a Zerg catches you as you initiate creep cleaning you've pretty much wasted 150+ in-game seconds for barely any clean-up. (75=0.5t) So what are the practical limitations of this? You can't clean near a Zerg army position- then again, neither can the Voidray (due to reasons mentioned earlier). Furthermore, while your cleaning is faster- there's a fairly massive cooldown. I dare say you need at least 103 energy to get a solid amount of cleaning done, 103=0.5t, t=206. That's one potential 20 second run every 3.5 minutes. ( TL;DR: ) Do I want safe and fast, yet infrequent creep cleaning? Oracle. Do I want riskier, slower but far more dispensable creep cleaning? Voidray. Something that should help you decide is answering what you want to take away from the Zerg- if you're simply pushing creep away slowly but surely, or trying to create an artificial limit to its spread near your own base presence, Voidray is the more natural option. However, if you want to hop into the middle of an infested area and pretty much incinerate every tumor there so you can go and muscle through a timing- the answer is oracle. | ||
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cptjibberjabber
Netherlands87 Posts
On November 13 2013 04:05 Afterhours wrote: Reading the comments from people in this thread.... Why are any of you butthurt about these changes at all? You do know that the NA region is a joke in skill compared to other regions right? So any idea of "balance" you might have is probably weaksauce. Until we start seeing NA foreigners dominating the esports scene, none of us have any right to say that these changes are retarded. It's really no surprise that the NA region is bad at Esports. You're all too busy whining and bitching about mundane bullshit instead of figuring out what you can do to improve your game, explore new strats for your race, be a better gamer, etc. Nah, instead people give up and leave ship for another game. The reason why you find this game so frustrating when it comes to balancing, is because you suck, and that's because you give up at the slightest sign of resistance. "Fuck this game. So glad I installed DOTA 2, blah blah etc." Get over yourselves. I can't believe people think the Siege Tank AS buff is weak. It just goes to show how out of touch most of these players are when it comes to long, thought-out, balance decisions. It's like you think Blizzard just dropped pieces of paper into a bucket with certain nerfs/buffs and picked a handful of them out. IMO, you're lazy if you think these changes ruined the game for you. Well, I just tried it in the unit tester. If the zerg engages on creep, then the tanks don't get an extra shot and are just as weak as before. If the engagement happens off-creep the tanks get an extra shot. So I guess if you can contain the zerg creep then tanks are pretty stronk now. Oh, and to kill 50 zerglings and 30 banelings now, you need 30 split-apart widow mines if the zerg just a-moves over them. If he micro's, it's even more than that. But yeah, banshee-raven to kill the queens with a follow-up 2/2 push would be possible. But that's another 2/2 deathball push _again_. We'll see, i'll try.  | ||
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Prog455
Denmark970 Posts
On November 13 2013 03:53 Fjodorov wrote: Haha its lovely that people are talking about tanks like its some new unit just introduced to us in this patch. "Hey go try the tank first" "try some new ways to play with tank!". Mutas are still buffed for hots. There are still alot of huge maps. Tank play is still as immobile as its ever been. Against muta ling/bane you will see terrans play exactly the same as they did before the patch. Despite the WM nerf you can still out micro the zerg. I suppose that means the WM is still imba. This is the problem - the maps are simply too big for Tanks to work. I haven't played any games with the new patch, but prior to the Tank buff you needed an insanely favorable engagement to merely break even with an a-move Protoss army, and while it may be slightly better now, what Mech really needs is a Tank-based army that will obliterate anything on the ground. Otherwise Protoss can just warp in an entire new army inside of the Terran base, leaving little defenses at home as the Terran army has still not recovered from the last engagement anyway. I have already mentioned it in this thread, but it would appear that everything in this game is designed to counter tanks in one way or another, and until this problem is solved i don't see Mech being viable outside of timing attacks. | ||
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AoWAraGorn
Germany6 Posts
Terran needs again to be able, to have viable harassment options during ANY stage of the game. There were times for instance when you could 2 rax a protoss to punish early expansions. Or where you could open 1 base hellion into expand, without falling drastically behind in economy. All those options are cost-unefficient nowadays, meaning unless a major screw up happens by toss or zerg, you will fall behind already, when it should rather allow you, to force just as much defensive response from the opponent, that you are break even again (given both players are 100% equally skilled). The only terran matchup where this is still the case, is TvT. This is also why i personally enjoy watching and playing it so much, because you dont only have the option to go for a super greedy macro game. You can play almost any strat you like at the start, and having it pay off. If you go for a pressure build you can punish earlier expansions to be break even again, if you commit you will be able to kill too greedy opponents. The result is, you can play any strat, if you execute it right. In TvP and TvZ however, the MSC and Queen 5 range + overlord scouting denies any early game harass (1 base), apart from reaper. If they wanna fix the game, imo they need to make terran harass possible at any stage of the game, then they wont have to change many units. Nerfing the MSC or reverting queen range buff and i'm even 100% sure this would game would not only be more balanced, but far more fun to watch cuz of more possible strats. Concerning the tank buff: a good step, but as already said in this thread, big maps since the release of HOTS and vipers/tempest/immortals/archons are far too strong to have a solid mech play in TvP or TvZ (apart from maybe a couple of timings with scvs again). Problem is imo, they cant buff other mech units than the tank, or TvT will only be Mech vs Mech. Hope they actually nerf the immortal vs tanks 1 day... | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
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CutTheEnemy
Canada373 Posts
Tanks feel much more powerful in low numbers now. They fire 21 times in a minute now compared to 20 times pre-patch. Sorry man, its placebo. Your tanks are the same as ever, they just gave their guns and armor manufacturing contract to the same people they get their aircraft from to save some money along the way. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On November 13 2013 05:01 Plansix wrote: This thread has gone to full amazing: Poster 1: "I don't notice any difference in the tanks" Poster 2:"Some people have said they are pretty strong in the right situations" Poster 1:"those people are fucking liars!" That some high level shit right there. I think the main question people need to ask themselves, why is the tank not used? TvZ: Tanks are better than VMs in killing blings, but VMs are far better vs mutas/slings. Mutas got stronger with HotS, hence T needs better things to actually deal with them(along with the fact that you can't really afford to let mutas be aggressive, hence you need to keep them at home). TvP: Immortals just hard counter tanks just way to much. It takes a tank ~40 seconds to kill an immortal 1v1, compared to the ~6 of immortals killing tanks(this is to some extend an unfair comparison, but range and splash sadly just aren't enough against that). A very slight increase in attack speed has no real effect on these issues, it just makes it that much better against things it's already really strong against. The armory upgrade buff can help mech I suppose, but mech already is questionable in those 2 MUs(I use it and win with it at a master level, but I feel it's mostly because people don't know how to play against it or scout it late). I personally don't mind nerfing VMs, but I think they needed to add a realistic alternative, the tank just doesn't cut it in TvZ with the regening mutas. And I have no idea what they were smoking when they decided to let the oracle buff through. I'm all for making it a more useful unit longer into the game, but I then also don't want it to deal so much damage early in the game. | ||
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Moonsalt
267 Posts
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Snusmumriken
Sweden1717 Posts
On November 13 2013 04:52 Zealously wrote: I don't believe you play Terran either funny how that works I said I dont believe any played terran because they said so themselves. For a mod your posts are really subpar I got to say. The only terran who said anyting remotely positive was select, and the protoss-players (yes im talking to you plansix) hung onto that like leeches. | ||
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 13 2013 05:21 CutTheEnemy wrote: They fire 21 times in a minute now compared to 20 times pre-patch. Sorry man, its placebo. Your tanks are the same as ever, they just gave their guns and armor manufacturing contract to the same people they get their aircraft from to save some money along the way. But they fire twice in 3 seconds instead of only once. Ever consider that? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 13 2013 04:49 Snusmumriken wrote: And I dont believe a single one of them plays terran. I played tons of games today as Terran and meched in ZvT on Derelicted, New StarStation and Vestige. Can't tell whether it's the upgrades or just the fact that none of my opponents was clever enough to go Vipers (though I faced Broodlords and Ultras), but just from how it felt tanks felt quite good against roaches and swarm hosts. I think especially against the latter the little buff shows, since there is really a difference in amount of shots you get off against locusts. Not sure if it is enough to make Mech a real viable macro option, since blinding cloud just stomps you anytime you are not well-spread (and chances are that you sometimes are, since you need to move at some point). But yeah, I think the difference (of both buffs together at least) is noticeable. While I haven't yet noticed a huge difference in my mine play (sometimes mutas are a little less softened from the looks of it, but all my opponents still behave the same way when engaging mines - try not to run into them and when they do it really hurts them). But haven't played around with bio too much today, only on Alterzim, and there I don't mine push but just shiftclick medivacs for 40mins and hope my opponent dies before I have to take a 5th which is basically impossible if he is any good with mutas. | ||
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