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On November 13 2013 07:03 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 06:51 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On November 13 2013 06:38 Qikz wrote:On November 13 2013 06:35 A.Alm wrote:On November 13 2013 06:05 Qikz wrote:
Watching streams is hilarious because all these terrans are too stubborn to get turrets despite scouting double gas every single time.
Turrets are only 100 minerals guys, don't complain about balance and build turrets like I used to as mech. Hehe so true man! getting an ebay and two turrets at each mineral line is only 325 gp's, also u can get the attack uppg for only 100/100! 425/100 recources for something that does absolutely nothing against anything except for oracles (sentry/immortal allin, stalker allin, the list goes on) Turrets help not only in the early game against both DTs and Oracles, but they're also useful lategame. Think of it as an investment. lol getting 4 turrets before 7-8 minutes is pretty bad I think. Imagine how bad you die to warpgate timings after investing 425 in turrets before the 7-8 minute mark... well just see how the koreans deal with it. 4 turrets?
typo dude. I think you get the message.
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Denmark970 Posts
On November 13 2013 06:56 ffadicted wrote:
From what I'm reading from terrans here, seems like nobody knows how to adjust their builds on the fly based on scouting lol
Not surprised tbh... You have the best early scouting unit in the game, use it lol These things SHOULD and WILL kill you if you don't scout and change your build appropriately.
So many pros put down reactive cannons in mineral lines, stop b*tching about reactive turrets tbh
The problem is not only that we have to put down a reactive turret. The problem is that Oracles it will flat out kill you if you are not prepared, but on the flip side won't hurt Protoss much even if completely shut down. Also i beg to differ that Terran has the best early game scouting. Workers all move at the same speed and Scan will not help you spot a proxy Stargates.
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On November 13 2013 06:11 btlVega wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 06:00 Ctone23 wrote:On November 13 2013 05:55 Crownlol wrote:On November 13 2013 05:01 Plansix wrote:On November 13 2013 04:52 Zealously wrote:On November 13 2013 04:49 Snusmumriken wrote:On November 13 2013 04:45 Zealously wrote:On November 13 2013 04:43 Snusmumriken wrote:
So does anyone actually notice the tankdifference? as a pure mecher ive noticed zero, nill, squat, nothing, no way jose, not a thing. I believe a few people in this thread were talking about how the difference was quite noticeable in certain situations And I dont believe a single one of them plays terran. I don't believe you play Terran either funny how that works This thread has gone to full amazing: Poster 1: "I don't notice any difference in the tanks" Poster 2:"Some people have said they are pretty strong in the right situations" Poster 1:"those people are fucking liars!" That some high level shit right there. We're sitting in a QQ circlejerk thread man. I've made so many posts for Terrans to just try the new tanks before they whine about it on TL, and I just get met with "PROTOSS SCUM HAS NO IDEA". Yea and calling people out in posts really helps as well..... I play Terran, and I can confirm that Immortals are still strong vs Tanks. No Shit :o So building Tanks doesn´t win u the game? Well... this must be the end of terran for sure
I know right. The Humanity ;(
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On November 13 2013 07:05 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 06:56 ffadicted wrote:
From what I'm reading from terrans here, seems like nobody knows how to adjust their builds on the fly based on scouting lol
Not surprised tbh... You have the best early scouting unit in the game, use it lol These things SHOULD and WILL kill you if you don't scout and change your build appropriately.
So many pros put down reactive cannons in mineral lines, stop b*tching about reactive turrets tbh The problem is not only that we have to put down a reactive turret. The problem is that Oracles it will flat out kill you if you are not prepared, but on the flip side won't hurt Protoss much even if completely shut down. Also i beg to differ that Terran has the best early game scouting. Workers all move at the same speed and Scan will not help you spot a proxy Stargates.
he is talking about reaper
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Canada13410 Posts
On November 13 2013 07:05 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 06:56 ffadicted wrote:
From what I'm reading from terrans here, seems like nobody knows how to adjust their builds on the fly based on scouting lol
Not surprised tbh... You have the best early scouting unit in the game, use it lol These things SHOULD and WILL kill you if you don't scout and change your build appropriately.
So many pros put down reactive cannons in mineral lines, stop b*tching about reactive turrets tbh The problem is not only that we have to put down a reactive turret. The problem is that Oracles it will flat out kill you if you are not prepared, but on the flip side won't hurt Protoss much even if completely shut down. Also i beg to differ that Terran has the best early game scouting. Workers all move at the same speed and Scan will not help you spot a proxy Stargates.
I really beg to differ that oracles doing no damage or being shut down doesnt hurt protoss. It delays our ability to get AoE out or upgrades so it does hurt us, in a way.
All thats happening is stargates becoming more popular PvT. You need to adjust your scouting and reads from what you see. Learn to count pylons and gas. If your scv see 2 gas, 2 pylons and protoss is at 24+ supply, then there is easily a pylon somewhere on the map. Keep an eye on the timings, protoss cant have a mamacore and a stalker and constant probe production without being at 25/26 supply. If they get a zealot they would be 27/26 with the above mentioned. So where is the third pylon? on the map somewhere, check the regular proxy spots. And if need be get a bunker and put marines in it at the mineral like if you dislike turrets so much. Its not impossible to shut down oracles, unfortunately they kill stuff. Toss also deals with oracles being proxied and we lose probes too, it sucks but it happens. Adjust your scouting and responses and build. It happens, is it easy? No, will you need to try stuff and explore? yup.
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On November 13 2013 07:05 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 06:56 ffadicted wrote:
From what I'm reading from terrans here, seems like nobody knows how to adjust their builds on the fly based on scouting lol
Not surprised tbh... You have the best early scouting unit in the game, use it lol These things SHOULD and WILL kill you if you don't scout and change your build appropriately.
So many pros put down reactive cannons in mineral lines, stop b*tching about reactive turrets tbh The problem is not only that we have to put down a reactive turret. The problem is that Oracles it will flat out kill you if you are not prepared, but on the flip side won't hurt Protoss much even if completely shut down. Also i beg to differ that Terran has the best early game scouting. Workers all move at the same speed and Scan will not help you spot a proxy Stargates.
Reapers are not the best early game scouting units?
And I def wouldn't go as far as saying it won't hurt protoss. Stargate + Oracle is a HUGE investment, you definitely have to do damage to not die to a stim timing. EBays should be coming early TvP anyway, the turret investment is not that big and the benefits far outweight the cost when scouting is done well.
And ya, proxy oracles (especially all-ins) will def kill you if you're not prepared for it, as it currently does now anyway lol This patch changes little in terms of all-ins. It's def more for macro harassment and late game usage.
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On November 13 2013 06:46 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 06:38 Qikz wrote:On November 13 2013 06:35 A.Alm wrote:On November 13 2013 06:05 Qikz wrote:
Watching streams is hilarious because all these terrans are too stubborn to get turrets despite scouting double gas every single time.
Turrets are only 100 minerals guys, don't complain about balance and build turrets like I used to as mech. Hehe so true man! getting an ebay and two turrets at each mineral line is only 325 gp's, also u can get the attack uppg for only 100/100! 425/100 recources for something that does absolutely nothing against anything except for oracles (sentry/immortal allin, stalker allin, the list goes on) Turrets help not only in the early game against both DTs and Oracles, but they're also useful lategame. Think of it as an investment. = 425 mineral investment in very early game is really huge...
425 is 3 turrets and attack upgrade. Not talking about the early game here.
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On November 13 2013 07:11 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 07:05 Prog455 wrote:On November 13 2013 06:56 ffadicted wrote:
From what I'm reading from terrans here, seems like nobody knows how to adjust their builds on the fly based on scouting lol
Not surprised tbh... You have the best early scouting unit in the game, use it lol These things SHOULD and WILL kill you if you don't scout and change your build appropriately.
So many pros put down reactive cannons in mineral lines, stop b*tching about reactive turrets tbh The problem is not only that we have to put down a reactive turret. The problem is that Oracles it will flat out kill you if you are not prepared, but on the flip side won't hurt Protoss much even if completely shut down. Also i beg to differ that Terran has the best early game scouting. Workers all move at the same speed and Scan will not help you spot a proxy Stargates. Reapers are not the best early game scouting units? And I def wouldn't go as far as saying it won't hurt protoss. Stargate + Oracle is a HUGE investment, you definitely have to do damage to not die to a stim timing. EBays should be coming early TvP anyway, the turret investment is not that big and the benefits far outweight the cost when scouting is done well. And ya, proxy oracles (especially all-ins) will def kill you if you're not prepared for it, as it currently does now anyway lol This patch changes little in terms of all-ins. It's def more for macro harassment and late game usage.
when sOs did it and he did no damage, he didn't die.
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On November 13 2013 07:26 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 07:11 ffadicted wrote:On November 13 2013 07:05 Prog455 wrote:On November 13 2013 06:56 ffadicted wrote:
From what I'm reading from terrans here, seems like nobody knows how to adjust their builds on the fly based on scouting lol
Not surprised tbh... You have the best early scouting unit in the game, use it lol These things SHOULD and WILL kill you if you don't scout and change your build appropriately.
So many pros put down reactive cannons in mineral lines, stop b*tching about reactive turrets tbh The problem is not only that we have to put down a reactive turret. The problem is that Oracles it will flat out kill you if you are not prepared, but on the flip side won't hurt Protoss much even if completely shut down. Also i beg to differ that Terran has the best early game scouting. Workers all move at the same speed and Scan will not help you spot a proxy Stargates. Reapers are not the best early game scouting units? And I def wouldn't go as far as saying it won't hurt protoss. Stargate + Oracle is a HUGE investment, you definitely have to do damage to not die to a stim timing. EBays should be coming early TvP anyway, the turret investment is not that big and the benefits far outweight the cost when scouting is done well. And ya, proxy oracles (especially all-ins) will def kill you if you're not prepared for it, as it currently does now anyway lol This patch changes little in terms of all-ins. It's def more for macro harassment and late game usage. when sOs did it and he did no damage, he didn't die.
good thing you won't be facing sOs
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On November 13 2013 07:28 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 07:26 Chaggi wrote:On November 13 2013 07:11 ffadicted wrote:On November 13 2013 07:05 Prog455 wrote:On November 13 2013 06:56 ffadicted wrote:
From what I'm reading from terrans here, seems like nobody knows how to adjust their builds on the fly based on scouting lol
Not surprised tbh... You have the best early scouting unit in the game, use it lol These things SHOULD and WILL kill you if you don't scout and change your build appropriately.
So many pros put down reactive cannons in mineral lines, stop b*tching about reactive turrets tbh The problem is not only that we have to put down a reactive turret. The problem is that Oracles it will flat out kill you if you are not prepared, but on the flip side won't hurt Protoss much even if completely shut down. Also i beg to differ that Terran has the best early game scouting. Workers all move at the same speed and Scan will not help you spot a proxy Stargates. Reapers are not the best early game scouting units? And I def wouldn't go as far as saying it won't hurt protoss. Stargate + Oracle is a HUGE investment, you definitely have to do damage to not die to a stim timing. EBays should be coming early TvP anyway, the turret investment is not that big and the benefits far outweight the cost when scouting is done well. And ya, proxy oracles (especially all-ins) will def kill you if you're not prepared for it, as it currently does now anyway lol This patch changes little in terms of all-ins. It's def more for macro harassment and late game usage. when sOs did it and he did no damage, he didn't die. good thing you won't be facing sOs
good thing you won't be facing Bomber
see what I did there
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On November 13 2013 07:30 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 07:28 Die4Ever wrote:On November 13 2013 07:26 Chaggi wrote:On November 13 2013 07:11 ffadicted wrote:On November 13 2013 07:05 Prog455 wrote:On November 13 2013 06:56 ffadicted wrote:
From what I'm reading from terrans here, seems like nobody knows how to adjust their builds on the fly based on scouting lol
Not surprised tbh... You have the best early scouting unit in the game, use it lol These things SHOULD and WILL kill you if you don't scout and change your build appropriately.
So many pros put down reactive cannons in mineral lines, stop b*tching about reactive turrets tbh The problem is not only that we have to put down a reactive turret. The problem is that Oracles it will flat out kill you if you are not prepared, but on the flip side won't hurt Protoss much even if completely shut down. Also i beg to differ that Terran has the best early game scouting. Workers all move at the same speed and Scan will not help you spot a proxy Stargates. Reapers are not the best early game scouting units? And I def wouldn't go as far as saying it won't hurt protoss. Stargate + Oracle is a HUGE investment, you definitely have to do damage to not die to a stim timing. EBays should be coming early TvP anyway, the turret investment is not that big and the benefits far outweight the cost when scouting is done well. And ya, proxy oracles (especially all-ins) will def kill you if you're not prepared for it, as it currently does now anyway lol This patch changes little in terms of all-ins. It's def more for macro harassment and late game usage. when sOs did it and he did no damage, he didn't die. good thing you won't be facing sOs good thing you won't be facing Bomber see what I did there
ah I thought you were talking about balance for you own games
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On November 13 2013 07:31 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 07:30 Chaggi wrote:On November 13 2013 07:28 Die4Ever wrote:On November 13 2013 07:26 Chaggi wrote:On November 13 2013 07:11 ffadicted wrote:On November 13 2013 07:05 Prog455 wrote:On November 13 2013 06:56 ffadicted wrote:
From what I'm reading from terrans here, seems like nobody knows how to adjust their builds on the fly based on scouting lol
Not surprised tbh... You have the best early scouting unit in the game, use it lol These things SHOULD and WILL kill you if you don't scout and change your build appropriately.
So many pros put down reactive cannons in mineral lines, stop b*tching about reactive turrets tbh The problem is not only that we have to put down a reactive turret. The problem is that Oracles it will flat out kill you if you are not prepared, but on the flip side won't hurt Protoss much even if completely shut down. Also i beg to differ that Terran has the best early game scouting. Workers all move at the same speed and Scan will not help you spot a proxy Stargates. Reapers are not the best early game scouting units? And I def wouldn't go as far as saying it won't hurt protoss. Stargate + Oracle is a HUGE investment, you definitely have to do damage to not die to a stim timing. EBays should be coming early TvP anyway, the turret investment is not that big and the benefits far outweight the cost when scouting is done well. And ya, proxy oracles (especially all-ins) will def kill you if you're not prepared for it, as it currently does now anyway lol This patch changes little in terms of all-ins. It's def more for macro harassment and late game usage. when sOs did it and he did no damage, he didn't die. good thing you won't be facing sOs good thing you won't be facing Bomber see what I did there ah I thought you were talking about balance for you own games
I don't know, I joined in the convo just now
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On November 13 2013 06:53 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 06:10 Snusmumriken wrote:On November 13 2013 05:34 Big J wrote:On November 13 2013 04:49 Snusmumriken wrote:On November 13 2013 04:45 Zealously wrote:On November 13 2013 04:43 Snusmumriken wrote:
So does anyone actually notice the tankdifference? as a pure mecher ive noticed zero, nill, squat, nothing, no way jose, not a thing. I believe a few people in this thread were talking about how the difference was quite noticeable in certain situations And I dont believe a single one of them plays terran. I played tons of games today as Terran and meched in ZvT on Derelicted, New StarStation and Vestige. Can't tell whether it's the upgrades or just the fact that none of my opponents was clever enough to go Vipers (though I faced Broodlords and Ultras), but just from how it felt tanks felt quite good against roaches and swarm hosts. I think especially against the latter the little buff shows, since there is really a difference in amount of shots you get off against locusts. Not sure if it is enough to make Mech a real viable macro option, since blinding cloud just stomps you anytime you are not well-spread (and chances are that you sometimes are, since you need to move at some point). But yeah, I think the difference (of both buffs together at least) is noticeable. While I haven't yet noticed a huge difference in my mine play (sometimes mutas are a little less softened from the looks of it, but all my opponents still behave the same way when engaging mines - try not to run into them and when they do it really hurts them). But haven't played around with bio too much today, only on Alterzim, and there I don't mine push but just shiftclick medivacs for 40mins and hope my opponent dies before I have to take a 5th which is basically impossible if he is any good with mutas. What league are you? The reason Im asking is because all the things you mentioned, tanks were already good against. The real problems with mech has never been roaches lol, the problem with mech is that it has superhardcounters in vipers and almost all things protoss as well as the tanks being shitty in lownumbers and when unsieged. Theyve always been good when you got 20 of them and siege up and avoid hardcounters. Except if you play vs protoss. I should know, I play master mech. I'm playing around high diamond and low masters on my unranked MMR where I play my Terran games. (though I guess it would be higher if I wouldn't leave any matchup I'm not interested playing) About the roaches/swarm host part... I could find tons and tons of comments of people complaining about Swarm Hosts "hardcountering" tanks. And roachbased play is basically - THE- standard approach against Mech, so I don't think that roaches are all-out bad and that countering them is a nonfactor why Mech has not been working. In fact, even amongst pros you will find the one or other comment (e.g. some Terran on Meta) that say that one of Mech's biggest problems are roach timings. Yeah, I totally agree that tanks have been good against those units to begin with in combat. Now they are feel even better. Which means you need less of them to do this job and can more easily transtition into the counters to the Vipers and Broodlords and have the one or other extra support unit for your tanks. Or invest more into your harass. Or do a stronger timing. Edit: but yeah, I guess one isn't even allowed to say that it feels a bit better to play Mech around here. Even if you point out that it's probably still not strong enough for highlevel TvZ (and TvP), it's simply too hard for some guys to admit that the whole world and david kim are not trying to destroy Terran.
Look. The difference in the tanks is nonexistent, im pretty sure what youre experiencing is all placebo. Sure it fires like what, 3 times per 3 seconds instead of 3 times per 3.03 seconds or something. Hurray. It does shit, squat, nill, nothing, zero, not a single thing. I would be very surprised if anyone still think this does anything in 2 weeks time.
And I dont think David Kim is trying to destroy Terran. I think David Kim is utterly incompetent. They havent managed to make mech viable in 2 years, they still have a fucking tank that doesnt have a working tracking turret and they still cant take criticism.
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Man, Blinding Cloud....I wish Terrans had a unit that can reduce the energy of a unit to 0 in an AoE blast with decent casting range.
Wait a minute...
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Not sure what the huge uproar about oracles are about. Sure they increased the speed and acceleration but it is not like it is to the point where Terrans can't win anymore. I would be VERY surprised if Terrans can't adjust to this. Is building turrets and a viking or so that much more of an investment than building a stargate and an oracle? I highly doubt that stargate is going to be any more useful after the initial oracle now than before the patch. Like what ZeromuS said, investing in an oracle and stargate delays toss AoE significantly. That is a lot of gas invested in the early game. And for people who say that oracles will flat out kill you if you are not prepared, well isn't that what a strategy game is all about? Scouting and being prepared? Why do we need cookie cutter builds that account for every single possibility? I for one am actually impressed with the state of protoss now. They have multiple strategies and builds they can do across all matchups unlike terrans where bio is the predominant build. I feel the siege tank change is kind of disappointing. I feel that they should have implemented the 2.7 attack speed instead of 2.8. I feel Blizzard is playing too cautiously with mech.
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On November 13 2013 07:26 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 07:11 ffadicted wrote:On November 13 2013 07:05 Prog455 wrote:On November 13 2013 06:56 ffadicted wrote:
From what I'm reading from terrans here, seems like nobody knows how to adjust their builds on the fly based on scouting lol
Not surprised tbh... You have the best early scouting unit in the game, use it lol These things SHOULD and WILL kill you if you don't scout and change your build appropriately.
So many pros put down reactive cannons in mineral lines, stop b*tching about reactive turrets tbh The problem is not only that we have to put down a reactive turret. The problem is that Oracles it will flat out kill you if you are not prepared, but on the flip side won't hurt Protoss much even if completely shut down. Also i beg to differ that Terran has the best early game scouting. Workers all move at the same speed and Scan will not help you spot a proxy Stargates. Reapers are not the best early game scouting units? And I def wouldn't go as far as saying it won't hurt protoss. Stargate + Oracle is a HUGE investment, you definitely have to do damage to not die to a stim timing. EBays should be coming early TvP anyway, the turret investment is not that big and the benefits far outweight the cost when scouting is done well. And ya, proxy oracles (especially all-ins) will def kill you if you're not prepared for it, as it currently does now anyway lol This patch changes little in terms of all-ins. It's def more for macro harassment and late game usage. when sOs did it and he did no damage, he didn't die.
He didn't die but in game 1 (on Yeonsu), he lost his natural when Bomber pushed with marines/marauders and in game 3 (on Derelict), Bomber took a huge lead with the same push but threw the game later.
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On November 13 2013 07:36 sns3rsam wrote:
Not sure what the huge uproar about oracles are about. Sure they increased the speed and acceleration but it is not like it is to the point where Terrans can't win anymore. I would be VERY surprised if Terrans can't adjust to this. Is building turrets and a viking or so that much more of an investment than building a stargate and an oracle? I highly doubt that stargate is going to be any more useful after the initial oracle now than before the patch. Like what ZeromuS said, investing in an oracle and stargate delays toss AoE significantly. That is a lot of gas invested in the early game. And for people who say that oracles will flat out kill you if you are not prepared, well isn't that what a strategy game is all about? Scouting and being prepared? Why do we need cookie cutter builds that account for every single possibility? I for one am actually impressed with the state of protoss now. They have multiple strategies and builds they can do across all matchups unlike terrans where bio is the predominant build. I feel the siege tank change is kind of disappointing. I feel that they should have implemented the 2.7 attack speed instead of 2.8. I feel Blizzard is playing too cautiously with mech.
Because pre-patch oracles were awesome enough. Good players kept them alive. Bad players lost them. Now bad players will keep them alive. It's not about building defenses to an oracle but
How many all in's Protoss has and how limited Terran is in the first 10 minutes of the game. There is no consistent all in that you can do. An 11/11 will die if the Protoss isn't greedy and makes a zealot and doesn't lose the MSC. There is literally nothing else. That's what the Protoss players not seem to understand. There is no option early game, late game is brutally hard and midgame is the only chance Terran really has to do damage. Now that you have to play extra safe because of the faster oracle cause proxies and oracle play is just stronger, midgame lasts a shorter amount of time before Protoss gets a super deathball that's hard to beat. Simple as that. This was super telling when you watch pro gamers stream, and when Bomber vs sOs in his first person view.
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On November 13 2013 07:26 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2013 07:11 ffadicted wrote:On November 13 2013 07:05 Prog455 wrote:On November 13 2013 06:56 ffadicted wrote:
From what I'm reading from terrans here, seems like nobody knows how to adjust their builds on the fly based on scouting lol
Not surprised tbh... You have the best early scouting unit in the game, use it lol These things SHOULD and WILL kill you if you don't scout and change your build appropriately.
So many pros put down reactive cannons in mineral lines, stop b*tching about reactive turrets tbh The problem is not only that we have to put down a reactive turret. The problem is that Oracles it will flat out kill you if you are not prepared, but on the flip side won't hurt Protoss much even if completely shut down. Also i beg to differ that Terran has the best early game scouting. Workers all move at the same speed and Scan will not help you spot a proxy Stargates. Reapers are not the best early game scouting units? And I def wouldn't go as far as saying it won't hurt protoss. Stargate + Oracle is a HUGE investment, you definitely have to do damage to not die to a stim timing. EBays should be coming early TvP anyway, the turret investment is not that big and the benefits far outweight the cost when scouting is done well. And ya, proxy oracles (especially all-ins) will def kill you if you're not prepared for it, as it currently does now anyway lol This patch changes little in terms of all-ins. It's def more for macro harassment and late game usage. when sOs did it and he did no damage, he didn't die.
lol come on...
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On November 13 2013 07:35 Afterhours wrote:
Man, Blinding Cloud....I wish Terrans had a unit that can reduce the energy of a unit to 0 in an AoE blast with decent casting range.
Wait a minute...
That's not even what a ghost does. It reduces shields and energy by 100. Also, since vipers have the same range w/ abduct or blinding cloud as ghost emp, you'd have to walk ghosts in front vs swarmhost free minions to get a shot off in time.
This is also all assuming that you can afford ghosts in a mech composition that's fighting vs free units without dying to broodlords or other air alternatives to vipers. This is why people invest more in vikings which can cover both broodlords and vipers to an extent.
If you are arguing that mech is not being used at the top level because pros are not capable of using ghosts, you are severely underestimating how far the game has come since WoL beta.
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EPT
