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On October 18 2013 02:18 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 00:16 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 18 2013 00:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 17 2013 23:54 The_best32 wrote:On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes? muta switches would still be strong enough vs protoss. and if the muta is nerfed the wm doesn't need another role apart from killing lings and banes. You do however remove the emergency Anti Air Mech needs sometimes to deal with sudden air switches, you also lose a lot of strategical application such as baiting with overlords/overseers. The Widow Mine is a early teching Terrans best defence against Oracles too and plays a pretty big zoning role vs Banshees. Cluster up a bit of the WM attack splash instead of one big "blob" of spash - make them hit first target and cluster on 3 smaller "blobs" instead.. If that proves to be too weak vs Ling/Bane, then just add up another charge that comes up 5 seconds after the first.. That's what I think the unit would work, instead of risk changing everything else in the game.. Nowadays micro from the Zerg side and understanding of the Widow Mines mechanics really doesn't show us a lot of situations in which 'lucky' blasts change the game.
IDK mate, not sure about that..
True that Zergs know how to "slow-down" the push without risking too much chances, but still - the unit has some situations that still do the "lucky blasts"..
Like take mineral-line drops for example (usually happens vs Protoss this one).. When the opponent sees the mine burrowing in the mineral line and pulls workers - when being like half-a-second too late - it's even better as if he ignored it completely.. So TBH - IDK about you, but I really dislike that..
Still think that it's like by far better if the splash blob was "clustered" with more primary targets.. That way the unit might get some usage vs Protoss as well..
And after all - why even change the unit if things "got better" ?
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You do sometimes get lucky blasts but for the most part the matchup comes down to skill.
Mines will continue to suck against protoss mainly because the only units they get to hit (excluding mine drops of course) are the zealots at the front and trading gas for zealots like that is generally a poor proposition. if you're that worried about zealots, make hellbats! or just suck less with bio. There are some small unique situations where mines can be nifty, vs gateway pushes of almost any kind, and in a plcae where you think stalkers might blink onto and with the occasional drop harassment or cheese but it's generally difficult to use them in normal macro play.
For TvP I would be interested to see if a change to feedback such that it could only affect Biological units (so ghosts, everything zerg and basically not banshees ravens and bc's and PDD's). I wonder if that would encourage different compositions in a somewhat stale matchup (well, stale for terran anyway!)
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On October 18 2013 03:16 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 02:18 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 18 2013 00:16 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 18 2013 00:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 17 2013 23:54 The_best32 wrote:On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes? muta switches would still be strong enough vs protoss. and if the muta is nerfed the wm doesn't need another role apart from killing lings and banes. You do however remove the emergency Anti Air Mech needs sometimes to deal with sudden air switches, you also lose a lot of strategical application such as baiting with overlords/overseers. The Widow Mine is a early teching Terrans best defence against Oracles too and plays a pretty big zoning role vs Banshees. Cluster up a bit of the WM attack splash instead of one big "blob" of spash - make them hit first target and cluster on 3 smaller "blobs" instead.. If that proves to be too weak vs Ling/Bane, then just add up another charge that comes up 5 seconds after the first.. That's what I think the unit would work, instead of risk changing everything else in the game.. Nowadays micro from the Zerg side and understanding of the Widow Mines mechanics really doesn't show us a lot of situations in which 'lucky' blasts change the game. IDK mate, not sure about that.. True that Zergs know how to "slow-down" the push without risking too much chances, but still - the unit has some situations that still do the "lucky blasts".. Like take mineral-line drops for example (usually happens vs Protoss this one).. When the opponent sees the mine burrowing in the mineral line and pulls workers - when being like half-a-second too late - it's even better as if he ignored it completely.. So TBH - IDK about you, but I really dislike that.. Still think that it's like by far better if the splash blob was "clustered" with more primary targets.. That way the unit might get some usage vs Protoss as well.. And after all - why even change the unit if things "got better" ?
YOu don't like a unit that is strong when not microed against but can be microed against thereby discouraging lazy play?
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On October 18 2013 03:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 03:16 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 18 2013 02:18 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 18 2013 00:16 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 18 2013 00:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 17 2013 23:54 The_best32 wrote:On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes? muta switches would still be strong enough vs protoss. and if the muta is nerfed the wm doesn't need another role apart from killing lings and banes. You do however remove the emergency Anti Air Mech needs sometimes to deal with sudden air switches, you also lose a lot of strategical application such as baiting with overlords/overseers. The Widow Mine is a early teching Terrans best defence against Oracles too and plays a pretty big zoning role vs Banshees. Cluster up a bit of the WM attack splash instead of one big "blob" of spash - make them hit first target and cluster on 3 smaller "blobs" instead.. If that proves to be too weak vs Ling/Bane, then just add up another charge that comes up 5 seconds after the first.. That's what I think the unit would work, instead of risk changing everything else in the game.. Nowadays micro from the Zerg side and understanding of the Widow Mines mechanics really doesn't show us a lot of situations in which 'lucky' blasts change the game. IDK mate, not sure about that.. True that Zergs know how to "slow-down" the push without risking too much chances, but still - the unit has some situations that still do the "lucky blasts".. Like take mineral-line drops for example (usually happens vs Protoss this one).. When the opponent sees the mine burrowing in the mineral line and pulls workers - when being like half-a-second too late - it's even better as if he ignored it completely.. So TBH - IDK about you, but I really dislike that.. Still think that it's like by far better if the splash blob was "clustered" with more primary targets.. That way the unit might get some usage vs Protoss as well.. And after all - why even change the unit if things "got better" ? YOu don't like a unit that is strong when not microed against but can be microed against thereby discouraging lazy play?
Actually it's the exact opposite and you know that.. Mines kill zillion workers only by luck when the opponent is trying to move them away but being half-a-second too late instead of when just ignoring (or even not noticing) them
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On October 18 2013 06:17 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 03:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 18 2013 03:16 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 18 2013 02:18 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 18 2013 00:16 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 18 2013 00:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 17 2013 23:54 The_best32 wrote:On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes? muta switches would still be strong enough vs protoss. and if the muta is nerfed the wm doesn't need another role apart from killing lings and banes. You do however remove the emergency Anti Air Mech needs sometimes to deal with sudden air switches, you also lose a lot of strategical application such as baiting with overlords/overseers. The Widow Mine is a early teching Terrans best defence against Oracles too and plays a pretty big zoning role vs Banshees. Cluster up a bit of the WM attack splash instead of one big "blob" of spash - make them hit first target and cluster on 3 smaller "blobs" instead.. If that proves to be too weak vs Ling/Bane, then just add up another charge that comes up 5 seconds after the first.. That's what I think the unit would work, instead of risk changing everything else in the game.. Nowadays micro from the Zerg side and understanding of the Widow Mines mechanics really doesn't show us a lot of situations in which 'lucky' blasts change the game. IDK mate, not sure about that.. True that Zergs know how to "slow-down" the push without risking too much chances, but still - the unit has some situations that still do the "lucky blasts".. Like take mineral-line drops for example (usually happens vs Protoss this one).. When the opponent sees the mine burrowing in the mineral line and pulls workers - when being like half-a-second too late - it's even better as if he ignored it completely.. So TBH - IDK about you, but I really dislike that.. Still think that it's like by far better if the splash blob was "clustered" with more primary targets.. That way the unit might get some usage vs Protoss as well.. And after all - why even change the unit if things "got better" ? YOu don't like a unit that is strong when not microed against but can be microed against thereby discouraging lazy play? Actually it's the exact opposite and you know that.. Mines kill zillion workers only by luck when the opponent is trying to move them away but being half-a-second too late instead of when just ignoring (or even not noticing) them
Widow Mines have their problems for sure, but none of their problems have anything to do with bad execution from the opponent. Lots of things punishes you for being a half second too late. Marine v Banelings, Scourge v Muta, Anything v Reavers, etc...
If something is hard to stop--but is fair/neutered when microed against, that is a good thing.
You currently are trapped into a folly a lot of people make where they *feel* something is wrong and instead of actually looking at what is wrong they simply describe what they immediately see and believe that that is the problem. The one thing Widow Mines have done right is be ridiculously strong when not microed against, but incredibly docile when microed against. If more SC2 units were that volatile then we'd be back to the days of BW that people keep asking about.
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On October 18 2013 00:19 The_best32 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 00:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 17 2013 23:54 The_best32 wrote:On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes? muta switches would still be strong enough vs protoss. and if the muta is nerfed the wm doesn't need another role apart from killing lings and banes. You do however remove the emergency Anti Air Mech needs sometimes to deal with sudden air switches, you also lose a lot of strategical application such as baiting with overlords/overseers. The Widow Mine is a early teching Terrans best defence against Oracles too and plays a pretty big zoning role vs Banshees. with the combined mech upgrades mech has an easier time to deal with air switches. yes, and for early game AA i think this can be fixed if turrets don't need an ebay to be built.
I assure you, if you get caught not instantly scouting the air transition, those 5 +3 vikings you have don't make the difference.
Turrets are not effective Anti Air, you need 2/3 to cover a mineral line fully, Oracle, VoidRay, Banshee etc outrange. There's probably a more elegant solution ;-)!
On October 18 2013 03:37 iaguz wrote:
You do sometimes get lucky blasts but for the most part the matchup comes down to skill.
Mines will continue to suck against protoss mainly because the only units they get to hit (excluding mine drops of course) are the zealots at the front and trading gas for zealots like that is generally a poor proposition. if you're that worried about zealots, make hellbats! or just suck less with bio. There are some small unique situations where mines can be nifty, vs gateway pushes of almost any kind, and in a plcae where you think stalkers might blink onto and with the occasional drop harassment or cheese but it's generally difficult to use them in normal macro play.
For TvP I would be interested to see if a change to feedback such that it could only affect Biological units (so ghosts, everything zerg and basically not banshees ravens and bc's and PDD's). I wonder if that would encourage different compositions in a somewhat stale matchup (well, stale for terran anyway!)
On the other hand, there's Thors, Medivacs, Phoenix, Sentry, Oracles, MotherShipCore and Mothership are also not affected, at least a couple of those should be feedbackable.
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On October 18 2013 03:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 03:16 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 18 2013 02:18 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 18 2013 00:16 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 18 2013 00:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 17 2013 23:54 The_best32 wrote:On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes? muta switches would still be strong enough vs protoss. and if the muta is nerfed the wm doesn't need another role apart from killing lings and banes. You do however remove the emergency Anti Air Mech needs sometimes to deal with sudden air switches, you also lose a lot of strategical application such as baiting with overlords/overseers. The Widow Mine is a early teching Terrans best defence against Oracles too and plays a pretty big zoning role vs Banshees. Cluster up a bit of the WM attack splash instead of one big "blob" of spash - make them hit first target and cluster on 3 smaller "blobs" instead.. If that proves to be too weak vs Ling/Bane, then just add up another charge that comes up 5 seconds after the first.. That's what I think the unit would work, instead of risk changing everything else in the game.. Nowadays micro from the Zerg side and understanding of the Widow Mines mechanics really doesn't show us a lot of situations in which 'lucky' blasts change the game. IDK mate, not sure about that.. True that Zergs know how to "slow-down" the push without risking too much chances, but still - the unit has some situations that still do the "lucky blasts".. Like take mineral-line drops for example (usually happens vs Protoss this one).. When the opponent sees the mine burrowing in the mineral line and pulls workers - when being like half-a-second too late - it's even better as if he ignored it completely.. So TBH - IDK about you, but I really dislike that.. Still think that it's like by far better if the splash blob was "clustered" with more primary targets.. That way the unit might get some usage vs Protoss as well.. And after all - why even change the unit if things "got better" ? YOu don't like a unit that is strong when not microed against but can be microed against thereby discouraging lazy play?
Well, the Zerg has to micro.. but the Terran just has to have a burrowed widow mine that takes 0 APM to use. So it discourages lazy play from Zerg but also has no requirement for the Terran to do anything either. I don't think this argument is valid.
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On October 18 2013 06:58 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 00:19 The_best32 wrote:On October 18 2013 00:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 17 2013 23:54 The_best32 wrote:On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes? muta switches would still be strong enough vs protoss. and if the muta is nerfed the wm doesn't need another role apart from killing lings and banes. You do however remove the emergency Anti Air Mech needs sometimes to deal with sudden air switches, you also lose a lot of strategical application such as baiting with overlords/overseers. The Widow Mine is a early teching Terrans best defence against Oracles too and plays a pretty big zoning role vs Banshees. with the combined mech upgrades mech has an easier time to deal with air switches. yes, and for early game AA i think this can be fixed if turrets don't need an ebay to be built. I assure you, if you get caught not instantly scouting the air transition, those 5 +3 vikings you have don't make the difference. Turrets are not effective Anti Air, you need 2/3 to cover a mineral line fully, Oracle, VoidRay, Banshee etc outrange. There's probably a more elegant solution ;-)! Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 03:37 iaguz wrote:
You do sometimes get lucky blasts but for the most part the matchup comes down to skill.
Mines will continue to suck against protoss mainly because the only units they get to hit (excluding mine drops of course) are the zealots at the front and trading gas for zealots like that is generally a poor proposition. if you're that worried about zealots, make hellbats! or just suck less with bio. There are some small unique situations where mines can be nifty, vs gateway pushes of almost any kind, and in a plcae where you think stalkers might blink onto and with the occasional drop harassment or cheese but it's generally difficult to use them in normal macro play.
For TvP I would be interested to see if a change to feedback such that it could only affect Biological units (so ghosts, everything zerg and basically not banshees ravens and bc's and PDD's). I wonder if that would encourage different compositions in a somewhat stale matchup (well, stale for terran anyway!) On the other hand, there's Thors, Medivacs, Phoenix, Sentry, Oracles, MotherShipCore and Mothership are also not affected, at least a couple of those should be feedbackable.
No feedback on Ravens or Banshees is quasi game breaking. Mass PDD + Banshee is really hard to stop as P.
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On October 18 2013 07:37 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 03:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 18 2013 03:16 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 18 2013 02:18 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 18 2013 00:16 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 18 2013 00:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 17 2013 23:54 The_best32 wrote:On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes? muta switches would still be strong enough vs protoss. and if the muta is nerfed the wm doesn't need another role apart from killing lings and banes. You do however remove the emergency Anti Air Mech needs sometimes to deal with sudden air switches, you also lose a lot of strategical application such as baiting with overlords/overseers. The Widow Mine is a early teching Terrans best defence against Oracles too and plays a pretty big zoning role vs Banshees. Cluster up a bit of the WM attack splash instead of one big "blob" of spash - make them hit first target and cluster on 3 smaller "blobs" instead.. If that proves to be too weak vs Ling/Bane, then just add up another charge that comes up 5 seconds after the first.. That's what I think the unit would work, instead of risk changing everything else in the game.. Nowadays micro from the Zerg side and understanding of the Widow Mines mechanics really doesn't show us a lot of situations in which 'lucky' blasts change the game. IDK mate, not sure about that.. True that Zergs know how to "slow-down" the push without risking too much chances, but still - the unit has some situations that still do the "lucky blasts".. Like take mineral-line drops for example (usually happens vs Protoss this one).. When the opponent sees the mine burrowing in the mineral line and pulls workers - when being like half-a-second too late - it's even better as if he ignored it completely.. So TBH - IDK about you, but I really dislike that.. Still think that it's like by far better if the splash blob was "clustered" with more primary targets.. That way the unit might get some usage vs Protoss as well.. And after all - why even change the unit if things "got better" ? YOu don't like a unit that is strong when not microed against but can be microed against thereby discouraging lazy play? Well, the Zerg has to micro.. but the Terran just has to have a burrowed widow mine that takes 0 APM to use. So it discourages lazy play from Zerg but also has no requirement for the Terran to do anything either. I don't think this argument is valid.
Burrow/Unburrow control is actually something that splits top terran players from each other because that is the only way to counteract zerg splits. Its no different than siege tank target firing.
But lets pretend that terrans don't micro widowmines, just for shits and giggles. Even if that were the case, which it isn't, but lets say that somehow your delusion is real about that. Are you making the argument that terrans don''t have enough stuff to micro? Are you saying that there aren't threads right now of people whining (wrongfully so) that terran is the hardest race?
Like I said to the guy above me, Widow mines have a lot of problems. Needing to micro is not one of them.
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Canada13408 Posts
On October 18 2013 07:40 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 06:58 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 18 2013 00:19 The_best32 wrote:On October 18 2013 00:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 17 2013 23:54 The_best32 wrote:On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes? muta switches would still be strong enough vs protoss. and if the muta is nerfed the wm doesn't need another role apart from killing lings and banes. You do however remove the emergency Anti Air Mech needs sometimes to deal with sudden air switches, you also lose a lot of strategical application such as baiting with overlords/overseers. The Widow Mine is a early teching Terrans best defence against Oracles too and plays a pretty big zoning role vs Banshees. with the combined mech upgrades mech has an easier time to deal with air switches. yes, and for early game AA i think this can be fixed if turrets don't need an ebay to be built. I assure you, if you get caught not instantly scouting the air transition, those 5 +3 vikings you have don't make the difference. Turrets are not effective Anti Air, you need 2/3 to cover a mineral line fully, Oracle, VoidRay, Banshee etc outrange. There's probably a more elegant solution ;-)! On October 18 2013 03:37 iaguz wrote:
You do sometimes get lucky blasts but for the most part the matchup comes down to skill.
Mines will continue to suck against protoss mainly because the only units they get to hit (excluding mine drops of course) are the zealots at the front and trading gas for zealots like that is generally a poor proposition. if you're that worried about zealots, make hellbats! or just suck less with bio. There are some small unique situations where mines can be nifty, vs gateway pushes of almost any kind, and in a plcae where you think stalkers might blink onto and with the occasional drop harassment or cheese but it's generally difficult to use them in normal macro play.
For TvP I would be interested to see if a change to feedback such that it could only affect Biological units (so ghosts, everything zerg and basically not banshees ravens and bc's and PDD's). I wonder if that would encourage different compositions in a somewhat stale matchup (well, stale for terran anyway!) On the other hand, there's Thors, Medivacs, Phoenix, Sentry, Oracles, MotherShipCore and Mothership are also not affected, at least a couple of those should be feedbackable. No feedback on Ravens or Banshees is quasi game breaking. Mass PDD + Banshee is really hard to stop as P.
they tried to remove energy from BCs as well and that caused a number of issues back in WoL but then again void rays were different then too.
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On October 18 2013 07:37 DinoMight wrote:
Well, the Zerg has to micro.. but the Terran just has to have a burrowed widow mine that takes 0 APM to use. So it discourages lazy play from Zerg but also has no requirement for the Terran to do anything either. I don't think this argument is valid.
Have you any idea how many clicks/time it takes to spread numerous Mines so that Banelings don't kill them before they trigger? Just because the micro is done before the fight doesn't mean there is "0 apm" to use Mines.
On October 18 2013 07:40 DinoMight wrote:
No feedback on Ravens or Banshees is quasi game breaking. Mass PDD + Banshee is really hard to stop as P.
Yeah, top3 strategy in Wood League.
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On October 18 2013 07:44 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 07:40 DinoMight wrote:On October 18 2013 06:58 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 18 2013 00:19 The_best32 wrote:On October 18 2013 00:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 17 2013 23:54 The_best32 wrote:On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes? muta switches would still be strong enough vs protoss. and if the muta is nerfed the wm doesn't need another role apart from killing lings and banes. You do however remove the emergency Anti Air Mech needs sometimes to deal with sudden air switches, you also lose a lot of strategical application such as baiting with overlords/overseers. The Widow Mine is a early teching Terrans best defence against Oracles too and plays a pretty big zoning role vs Banshees. with the combined mech upgrades mech has an easier time to deal with air switches. yes, and for early game AA i think this can be fixed if turrets don't need an ebay to be built. I assure you, if you get caught not instantly scouting the air transition, those 5 +3 vikings you have don't make the difference. Turrets are not effective Anti Air, you need 2/3 to cover a mineral line fully, Oracle, VoidRay, Banshee etc outrange. There's probably a more elegant solution ;-)! On October 18 2013 03:37 iaguz wrote:
You do sometimes get lucky blasts but for the most part the matchup comes down to skill.
Mines will continue to suck against protoss mainly because the only units they get to hit (excluding mine drops of course) are the zealots at the front and trading gas for zealots like that is generally a poor proposition. if you're that worried about zealots, make hellbats! or just suck less with bio. There are some small unique situations where mines can be nifty, vs gateway pushes of almost any kind, and in a plcae where you think stalkers might blink onto and with the occasional drop harassment or cheese but it's generally difficult to use them in normal macro play.
For TvP I would be interested to see if a change to feedback such that it could only affect Biological units (so ghosts, everything zerg and basically not banshees ravens and bc's and PDD's). I wonder if that would encourage different compositions in a somewhat stale matchup (well, stale for terran anyway!) On the other hand, there's Thors, Medivacs, Phoenix, Sentry, Oracles, MotherShipCore and Mothership are also not affected, at least a couple of those should be feedbackable. No feedback on Ravens or Banshees is quasi game breaking. Mass PDD + Banshee is really hard to stop as P. they tried to remove energy from BCs as well and that caused a number of issues back in WoL but then again void rays were different then too.
I think BC's are a lot sexier when templars can't zap them for 100-149 damage
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
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On October 18 2013 07:44 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 07:40 DinoMight wrote:On October 18 2013 06:58 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 18 2013 00:19 The_best32 wrote:On October 18 2013 00:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 17 2013 23:54 The_best32 wrote:On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes? muta switches would still be strong enough vs protoss. and if the muta is nerfed the wm doesn't need another role apart from killing lings and banes. You do however remove the emergency Anti Air Mech needs sometimes to deal with sudden air switches, you also lose a lot of strategical application such as baiting with overlords/overseers. The Widow Mine is a early teching Terrans best defence against Oracles too and plays a pretty big zoning role vs Banshees. with the combined mech upgrades mech has an easier time to deal with air switches. yes, and for early game AA i think this can be fixed if turrets don't need an ebay to be built. I assure you, if you get caught not instantly scouting the air transition, those 5 +3 vikings you have don't make the difference. Turrets are not effective Anti Air, you need 2/3 to cover a mineral line fully, Oracle, VoidRay, Banshee etc outrange. There's probably a more elegant solution ;-)! On October 18 2013 03:37 iaguz wrote:
You do sometimes get lucky blasts but for the most part the matchup comes down to skill.
Mines will continue to suck against protoss mainly because the only units they get to hit (excluding mine drops of course) are the zealots at the front and trading gas for zealots like that is generally a poor proposition. if you're that worried about zealots, make hellbats! or just suck less with bio. There are some small unique situations where mines can be nifty, vs gateway pushes of almost any kind, and in a plcae where you think stalkers might blink onto and with the occasional drop harassment or cheese but it's generally difficult to use them in normal macro play.
For TvP I would be interested to see if a change to feedback such that it could only affect Biological units (so ghosts, everything zerg and basically not banshees ravens and bc's and PDD's). I wonder if that would encourage different compositions in a somewhat stale matchup (well, stale for terran anyway!) On the other hand, there's Thors, Medivacs, Phoenix, Sentry, Oracles, MotherShipCore and Mothership are also not affected, at least a couple of those should be feedbackable. No feedback on Ravens or Banshees is quasi game breaking. Mass PDD + Banshee is really hard to stop as P. they tried to remove energy from BCs as well and that caused a number of issues back in WoL but then again void rays were different then too.
They also wouldn't remove energy from Thors until HotS.
Turned out it didn't make any difference to speak of.
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On October 18 2013 07:37 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 03:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 18 2013 03:16 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 18 2013 02:18 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 18 2013 00:16 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 18 2013 00:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 17 2013 23:54 The_best32 wrote:On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes? muta switches would still be strong enough vs protoss. and if the muta is nerfed the wm doesn't need another role apart from killing lings and banes. You do however remove the emergency Anti Air Mech needs sometimes to deal with sudden air switches, you also lose a lot of strategical application such as baiting with overlords/overseers. The Widow Mine is a early teching Terrans best defence against Oracles too and plays a pretty big zoning role vs Banshees. Cluster up a bit of the WM attack splash instead of one big "blob" of spash - make them hit first target and cluster on 3 smaller "blobs" instead.. If that proves to be too weak vs Ling/Bane, then just add up another charge that comes up 5 seconds after the first.. That's what I think the unit would work, instead of risk changing everything else in the game.. Nowadays micro from the Zerg side and understanding of the Widow Mines mechanics really doesn't show us a lot of situations in which 'lucky' blasts change the game. IDK mate, not sure about that.. True that Zergs know how to "slow-down" the push without risking too much chances, but still - the unit has some situations that still do the "lucky blasts".. Like take mineral-line drops for example (usually happens vs Protoss this one).. When the opponent sees the mine burrowing in the mineral line and pulls workers - when being like half-a-second too late - it's even better as if he ignored it completely.. So TBH - IDK about you, but I really dislike that.. Still think that it's like by far better if the splash blob was "clustered" with more primary targets.. That way the unit might get some usage vs Protoss as well.. And after all - why even change the unit if things "got better" ? YOu don't like a unit that is strong when not microed against but can be microed against thereby discouraging lazy play? Well, the Zerg has to micro.. but the Terran just has to have a burrowed widow mine that takes 0 APM to use. So it discourages lazy play from Zerg but also has no requirement for the Terran to do anything either. I don't think this argument is valid.
If you stop looking at mines vs the Zerg army in a vacuum, it helps. Because the set up is important, because microing marines/marauder against a giant Zergling ball is important, because splitting is important. This is why TvZ as a concept is awesome. Just look at games today from Polt vs Byul in WCS America. He had some pretty amazing Zergling control where mines did ABSOLUTELY nothing and hurt the Terran more and times when Polt had some great spread on mines and landed some pretty good hits. That's what makes a MU good.
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I cannot believe that people are actually advocating a nerf on feedback. You might as well remove Protoss from the game at that point.
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The match-up is stale because Zerg's development (creep/production/tech) is out of control since the Queen patch and Zerg received much stronger mutas and ultras, not to mention the Viper nonsense, further killing off Tank-based play. Even 4M is struggling to bring Zerg's play under control. The core of the problem lies there; Zerg's macro is so powerful that only constant pressure from the Terran side (= 4M) can vaguely tame it. As long as Zerg can safely cover half of the map in creep + get 90 drones + rush Hive against any down-time in midgame, you will not see Tank-based play coming back unless the Tank's strength is dramatically increased (≠ a measly -0.3 attack speed to pretend there is a compensation). Fix this, and then you can tone down the Mine as a support tool for Tank-based play.
I have absolutely no problem with Tanks becoming the norm again in TvZ, but you're simply deluded if you think it all adds up with the proposed changes.
I have to say there is some truth in this. I myself play mech and what I have learnt through my way up to master league is that you absolutely can't attack, because Zerg's production is absolutely out of control since the Queen patch. So the only way to play mech is to turtle. Yesterday I was playing Zerg that has 7RR me with expo backup, I defended with no loses, proceed to get 3rd CC + 2 Armories, secure my third and push out at like 150 supply at about 13/14 minut mark. I got absolutely swarmed with mass units and I couldn't even make it to one of his bases, but I traded at least decently and managed to get my 3/3 and 170//180 army supply back. His 800 drones then managed to get enough resources to make 500 Ultras within 2-3 minuts and he just killed me. We are not even talking about Vipers or Swarm Hosts here. After this game, I promised myself to NEVER EVER attack again and I'm gonna turtle the fuck out of every Zerg I play until they just leave. Sorry, not my fault. :-)
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On October 18 2013 07:40 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 06:58 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 18 2013 00:19 The_best32 wrote:On October 18 2013 00:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 17 2013 23:54 The_best32 wrote:On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes? muta switches would still be strong enough vs protoss. and if the muta is nerfed the wm doesn't need another role apart from killing lings and banes. You do however remove the emergency Anti Air Mech needs sometimes to deal with sudden air switches, you also lose a lot of strategical application such as baiting with overlords/overseers. The Widow Mine is a early teching Terrans best defence against Oracles too and plays a pretty big zoning role vs Banshees. with the combined mech upgrades mech has an easier time to deal with air switches. yes, and for early game AA i think this can be fixed if turrets don't need an ebay to be built. I assure you, if you get caught not instantly scouting the air transition, those 5 +3 vikings you have don't make the difference. Turrets are not effective Anti Air, you need 2/3 to cover a mineral line fully, Oracle, VoidRay, Banshee etc outrange. There's probably a more elegant solution ;-)! On October 18 2013 03:37 iaguz wrote:
You do sometimes get lucky blasts but for the most part the matchup comes down to skill.
Mines will continue to suck against protoss mainly because the only units they get to hit (excluding mine drops of course) are the zealots at the front and trading gas for zealots like that is generally a poor proposition. if you're that worried about zealots, make hellbats! or just suck less with bio. There are some small unique situations where mines can be nifty, vs gateway pushes of almost any kind, and in a plcae where you think stalkers might blink onto and with the occasional drop harassment or cheese but it's generally difficult to use them in normal macro play.
For TvP I would be interested to see if a change to feedback such that it could only affect Biological units (so ghosts, everything zerg and basically not banshees ravens and bc's and PDD's). I wonder if that would encourage different compositions in a somewhat stale matchup (well, stale for terran anyway!) On the other hand, there's Thors, Medivacs, Phoenix, Sentry, Oracles, MotherShipCore and Mothership are also not affected, at least a couple of those should be feedbackable. No feedback on Ravens or Banshees is quasi game breaking. Mass PDD + Banshee is really hard to stop as P.
Against a mass Raven Banshee build you DO NOT want to have Stalkers regardless. Archons, Storm, Carriers, Void Rays, Sentry all fullfill a purpose against those units.
Still, just leave feedback alone.
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While they should leave feedback alone, blink stalkers do fine against mass PDD + Banshee. Yeah in theory it should counter blink stalkers, in practise my money is on the stalkers everytime since they simply outproduce the ravens/banshees. The question is more which toss composition does not counter it? (Answer: immortal, colossi, zealot + sentry army, which is fairly stupid to make against mass air).
Also you can add phoenix to that list. Sure PDD stops their shots, but only autoturrets can shoot back, and the second PDD is down the phoenix rip through everything.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 18 2013 16:43 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +
The match-up is stale because Zerg's development (creep/production/tech) is out of control since the Queen patch and Zerg received much stronger mutas and ultras, not to mention the Viper nonsense, further killing off Tank-based play. Even 4M is struggling to bring Zerg's play under control. The core of the problem lies there; Zerg's macro is so powerful that only constant pressure from the Terran side (= 4M) can vaguely tame it. As long as Zerg can safely cover half of the map in creep + get 90 drones + rush Hive against any down-time in midgame, you will not see Tank-based play coming back unless the Tank's strength is dramatically increased (≠ a measly -0.3 attack speed to pretend there is a compensation). Fix this, and then you can tone down the Mine as a support tool for Tank-based play.
I have absolutely no problem with Tanks becoming the norm again in TvZ, but you're simply deluded if you think it all adds up with the proposed changes.
I have to say there is some truth in this. I myself play mech and what I have learnt through my way up to master league is that you absolutely can't attack, because Zerg's production is absolutely out of control since the Queen patch. So the only way to play mech is to turtle. Yesterday I was playing Zerg that has 7RR me with expo backup, I defended with no loses, proceed to get 3rd CC + 2 Armories, secure my third and push out at like 150 supply at about 13/14 minut mark. I got absolutely swarmed with mass units and I couldn't even make it to one of his bases, but I traded at least decently and managed to get my 3/3 and 170//180 army supply back. His 800 drones then managed to get enough resources to make 500 Ultras within 2-3 minuts and he just killed me. We are not even talking about Vipers or Swarm Hosts here. After this game, I promised myself to NEVER EVER attack again and I'm gonna turtle the fuck out of every Zerg I play until they just leave. Sorry, not my fault. :-)
Sorry, we were talking about competitive play here, not Big Game Hunters (No Unit Limit).
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EPT
