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On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes? I think the proper answer to this question is STARCRAFT 2 HAS FUNDAMENTAL DESIGN FLAWS BECAUSE MARINES AND STALKERS AND THAT'S WHY WIDOW MINES
ALSO BECAUSE WARPGATE
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though.
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On October 17 2013 23:51 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes? I think the proper answer to this question is STARCRAFT 2 HAS FUNDAMENTAL DESIGN FLAWS BECAUSE MARINES AND STALKERS AND THAT'S WHY WIDOW MINES ALSO BECAUSE WARPGATE Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though.
you forgot protoss
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On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes?
muta switches would still be strong enough vs protoss.
and if the muta is nerfed the wm doesn't need another role apart from killing lings and banes.
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On October 17 2013 23:54 The_best32 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes? muta switches would still be strong enough vs protoss. and if the muta is nerfed the wm doesn't need another role apart from killing lings and banes.
You do however remove the emergency Anti Air Mech needs sometimes to deal with sudden air switches, you also lose a lot of strategical application such as baiting with overlords/overseers. The Widow Mine is a early teching Terrans best defence against Oracles too and plays a pretty big zoning role vs Banshees.
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On October 18 2013 00:00 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 23:54 The_best32 wrote:On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes? muta switches would still be strong enough vs protoss. and if the muta is nerfed the wm doesn't need another role apart from killing lings and banes. You do however remove the emergency Anti Air Mech needs sometimes to deal with sudden air switches, you also lose a lot of strategical application such as baiting with overlords/overseers. The Widow Mine is a early teching Terrans best defence against Oracles too and plays a pretty big zoning role vs Banshees.
Cluster up a bit of the WM attack splash instead of one big "blob" of spash - make them hit first target and cluster on 3 smaller "blobs" instead.. If that proves to be too weak vs Ling/Bane, then just add up another charge that comes up 5 seconds after the first..
That's what I think the unit would work, instead of risk changing everything else in the game..
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On October 18 2013 00:00 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 23:54 The_best32 wrote:On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes? muta switches would still be strong enough vs protoss. and if the muta is nerfed the wm doesn't need another role apart from killing lings and banes. You do however remove the emergency Anti Air Mech needs sometimes to deal with sudden air switches, you also lose a lot of strategical application such as baiting with overlords/overseers. The Widow Mine is a early teching Terrans best defence against Oracles too and plays a pretty big zoning role vs Banshees.
with the combined mech upgrades mech has an easier time to deal with air switches.
yes, and for early game AA i think this can be fixed if turrets don't need an ebay to be built.
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I think the regeneration could be weaker, just so thor and widow mine shots actually force the mutalisks away for longer than half a minute. Normal regeneration is about 1 hit point every 4 seconds. Mutalisks get 1 hit point every 1 second. It's four times as powerful, for a race that already has queens. It allows you to do whatever with your mutalisk flock and never get punished.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On October 18 2013 00:20 Grumbels wrote:
I think the regeneration could be weaker, just so thor and widow mine shots actually force the mutalisks away for longer than half a minute. Normal regeneration is about 1 hit point every 4 seconds. Mutalisks get 1 hit point every 1 second. It's four times as powerful, for a race that already has queens. It allows you to do whatever with your mutalisk flock and never get punished.
If you want to nerf Spire, then buff other tier2 options: Nydus, Hydralisks or Infestors/Swarm Hosts.
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On October 17 2013 14:35 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 05:36 TheDwf wrote:On October 17 2013 04:12 Big J wrote:
I'm gonna bring up my eternal rant about marines being the reason why other Terran stuff cannot be as good (=/= being too strong) for as long as you bring up your eternal rant about patch 1.4.3.2. Except my "rant" makes sense as the statistics of the Marine were left unchanged since beta, while the Queen patch had notable consequences on the way the whole match-up is played. But keep fooling yourself thinking the only significant consequence of Queen range 5 was the death of double Reactor Hellion all-ins and other stuff like that. Was writing a lot of other stuff but deleted it, because it's completely useless to discuss "what would be with 3range queens". Noone knows. Indeed. No one knows how SC2 would look like had it followed its "natural" course because patches, patches, patches. Exactly. The marine got left untouched, despite Marine based strategies being the most used Terran strategies since the beta. While other strategies - like tankbased ones - are not viable currently, because those things were nerfed down so that tanks can't easily counter everything that's needed against marines. I believe it would have been better for the game if marines had gotten nerfed a tiny bit early on, instead of tanks for example. Like have Terran being forced to go for (stronger than now) tanks/ghosts in the midgame and marines as mineraldump, instead of "the unit you want to build". Show nested quote +PS: And roach/hydra gets torn apart by Marine/Medivac play outside of a 1-1 or 2-2 timing. Or why do you think noone plays it? Because of mines? Get real, mineheavy play was the only reason why those builds were somewhat efficient at the start of HotS. Roaches/Hydras does not get "torn apart by Marine/Medivac play," you need either 6+ Tanks or ~15+ Marauders with 10+ Medivacs if you go pure bio before the Terran army becomes stronger/unbeatable. Naturally, you have none of those things when the timings hit. Even for a less timing-oriented style, nothing prevents Zerg from scouting with an Overseer if Terran goes Tanks as a reaction, and consequently rushing Hive to gets Vipers before Terran has too many Tanks for the Roach/Hydra army to handle, etc. The fact Tefel can be competitive against Mvp despite the massive skill gap between them says something about the style. Sorry, that's so double standards from somebody who claims that nothing is viable for Terran against Zerg apart from bio/mine. We see much more Mech and bio/tank play than roach/hydra play. Yet you claim roach/hydra is viable but Mech and bio/tank is not... Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 05:42 CakeSauc3 wrote:On October 17 2013 04:12 Big J wrote:
Was writing a lot of other stuff but deleted it, because it's completely useless to discuss "what would be with 3range queens". Noone knows.
What we do know is that SC2 was a lot more entertaining to watch and play when queens only had a range of 3. Do we need to know anything more than that? The best games of WoL happened in 2012/2013, so not really.
I would say PvX has gotten a lot better in HotS. ZvT has definitely devolved. TvT is probably the same? ZvZ probably got worse.
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On October 18 2013 00:21 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 00:20 Grumbels wrote:
I think the regeneration could be weaker, just so thor and widow mine shots actually force the mutalisks away for longer than half a minute. Normal regeneration is about 1 hit point every 4 seconds. Mutalisks get 1 hit point every 1 second. It's four times as powerful, for a race that already has queens. It allows you to do whatever with your mutalisk flock and never get punished. If you want to nerf Spire, then buff other tier2 options: Nydus, Hydralisks or Infestors/Swarm Hosts.
Why? Spire is way more powerful than the other options at the moment. It's more sensible to ever so slightly nerf the mutalisk (which received strong buffs in HotS even though it was mostly fine before) in order to improve the TvZ and PvZ match-ups, rather than hand out many counter buffs randomly. Especially if widow mines are made weaker.
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On October 17 2013 23:54 The_best32 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes? muta switches would still be strong enough vs protoss. and if the muta is nerfed the wm doesn't need another role apart from killing lings and banes.
Point is that I don't want my units to only have "that one role" in theory. If we start nerfing down mines "because noone is ever using them against Protoss/Terran anyways" we might as well just remove all the units that are not being used from the game at all once you get matched up against a certain race. "Well, you got Protoss. So you can't even build anything from the factory, you don't need it anyways and it's so much easier to balance everything when hellion runbies are not even possible."
Point is that mines as they are are not a very useful unit to begin with if you don't happen to play against MLB. So why take that little bit of utility away as well?
If mutalisk regeneration were to become a problem which means one of two things:
- mutalisk strategies become imbalanced
- mutalisk strategies prevent too many enemy options
then the solution is to nerf them and/or buff their counters.
Currently I don't see either. *Maybe* they are a little limiting to protoss gameplay because you often need phoenixes to deal with them. Yet I don't think we see Protoss being limited to phoenix strategies, so I don't think that it makes the matchup worse/less diverse.
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On October 17 2013 23:53 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 23:51 RampancyTW wrote:On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes? I think the proper answer to this question is STARCRAFT 2 HAS FUNDAMENTAL DESIGN FLAWS BECAUSE MARINES AND STALKERS AND THAT'S WHY WIDOW MINES ALSO BECAUSE WARPGATE Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though. you forgot protoss
"Protoss hate train has left station, quick everybody jump on it!"
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On October 18 2013 00:23 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 14:35 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 05:36 TheDwf wrote:On October 17 2013 04:12 Big J wrote:
I'm gonna bring up my eternal rant about marines being the reason why other Terran stuff cannot be as good (=/= being too strong) for as long as you bring up your eternal rant about patch 1.4.3.2. Except my "rant" makes sense as the statistics of the Marine were left unchanged since beta, while the Queen patch had notable consequences on the way the whole match-up is played. But keep fooling yourself thinking the only significant consequence of Queen range 5 was the death of double Reactor Hellion all-ins and other stuff like that. Was writing a lot of other stuff but deleted it, because it's completely useless to discuss "what would be with 3range queens". Noone knows. Indeed. No one knows how SC2 would look like had it followed its "natural" course because patches, patches, patches. Exactly. The marine got left untouched, despite Marine based strategies being the most used Terran strategies since the beta. While other strategies - like tankbased ones - are not viable currently, because those things were nerfed down so that tanks can't easily counter everything that's needed against marines. I believe it would have been better for the game if marines had gotten nerfed a tiny bit early on, instead of tanks for example. Like have Terran being forced to go for (stronger than now) tanks/ghosts in the midgame and marines as mineraldump, instead of "the unit you want to build". PS: And roach/hydra gets torn apart by Marine/Medivac play outside of a 1-1 or 2-2 timing. Or why do you think noone plays it? Because of mines? Get real, mineheavy play was the only reason why those builds were somewhat efficient at the start of HotS. Roaches/Hydras does not get "torn apart by Marine/Medivac play," you need either 6+ Tanks or ~15+ Marauders with 10+ Medivacs if you go pure bio before the Terran army becomes stronger/unbeatable. Naturally, you have none of those things when the timings hit. Even for a less timing-oriented style, nothing prevents Zerg from scouting with an Overseer if Terran goes Tanks as a reaction, and consequently rushing Hive to gets Vipers before Terran has too many Tanks for the Roach/Hydra army to handle, etc. The fact Tefel can be competitive against Mvp despite the massive skill gap between them says something about the style. Sorry, that's so double standards from somebody who claims that nothing is viable for Terran against Zerg apart from bio/mine. We see much more Mech and bio/tank play than roach/hydra play. Yet you claim roach/hydra is viable but Mech and bio/tank is not... On October 17 2013 05:42 CakeSauc3 wrote:On October 17 2013 04:12 Big J wrote:
Was writing a lot of other stuff but deleted it, because it's completely useless to discuss "what would be with 3range queens". Noone knows.
What we do know is that SC2 was a lot more entertaining to watch and play when queens only had a range of 3. Do we need to know anything more than that? The best games of WoL happened in 2012/2013, so not really. I would say PvX has gotten a lot better in HotS. ZvT has definitely devolved. TvT is probably the same? ZvZ probably got worse.
WHAT??? pvt has gotten better?
the MSC has destroyed the matchup. terran can't punish a protoss who plays greedy and can't compete with them in lategame.
so every pvt is 13 minute passive macro into scv pull. do you really think that's better?
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On October 18 2013 00:27 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 23:53 Aocowns wrote:On October 17 2013 23:51 RampancyTW wrote:On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes? I think the proper answer to this question is STARCRAFT 2 HAS FUNDAMENTAL DESIGN FLAWS BECAUSE MARINES AND STALKERS AND THAT'S WHY WIDOW MINES ALSO BECAUSE WARPGATE Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though. you forgot protoss "Protoss hate train has left station, quick everybody jump on it!"
CHOOO CHOOO, MOTHERFUCKER
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On October 18 2013 00:31 The_best32 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 00:23 Cloak wrote:On October 17 2013 14:35 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 05:36 TheDwf wrote:On October 17 2013 04:12 Big J wrote:
I'm gonna bring up my eternal rant about marines being the reason why other Terran stuff cannot be as good (=/= being too strong) for as long as you bring up your eternal rant about patch 1.4.3.2. Except my "rant" makes sense as the statistics of the Marine were left unchanged since beta, while the Queen patch had notable consequences on the way the whole match-up is played. But keep fooling yourself thinking the only significant consequence of Queen range 5 was the death of double Reactor Hellion all-ins and other stuff like that. Was writing a lot of other stuff but deleted it, because it's completely useless to discuss "what would be with 3range queens". Noone knows. Indeed. No one knows how SC2 would look like had it followed its "natural" course because patches, patches, patches. Exactly. The marine got left untouched, despite Marine based strategies being the most used Terran strategies since the beta. While other strategies - like tankbased ones - are not viable currently, because those things were nerfed down so that tanks can't easily counter everything that's needed against marines. I believe it would have been better for the game if marines had gotten nerfed a tiny bit early on, instead of tanks for example. Like have Terran being forced to go for (stronger than now) tanks/ghosts in the midgame and marines as mineraldump, instead of "the unit you want to build". PS: And roach/hydra gets torn apart by Marine/Medivac play outside of a 1-1 or 2-2 timing. Or why do you think noone plays it? Because of mines? Get real, mineheavy play was the only reason why those builds were somewhat efficient at the start of HotS. Roaches/Hydras does not get "torn apart by Marine/Medivac play," you need either 6+ Tanks or ~15+ Marauders with 10+ Medivacs if you go pure bio before the Terran army becomes stronger/unbeatable. Naturally, you have none of those things when the timings hit. Even for a less timing-oriented style, nothing prevents Zerg from scouting with an Overseer if Terran goes Tanks as a reaction, and consequently rushing Hive to gets Vipers before Terran has too many Tanks for the Roach/Hydra army to handle, etc. The fact Tefel can be competitive against Mvp despite the massive skill gap between them says something about the style. Sorry, that's so double standards from somebody who claims that nothing is viable for Terran against Zerg apart from bio/mine. We see much more Mech and bio/tank play than roach/hydra play. Yet you claim roach/hydra is viable but Mech and bio/tank is not... On October 17 2013 05:42 CakeSauc3 wrote:On October 17 2013 04:12 Big J wrote:
Was writing a lot of other stuff but deleted it, because it's completely useless to discuss "what would be with 3range queens". Noone knows.
What we do know is that SC2 was a lot more entertaining to watch and play when queens only had a range of 3. Do we need to know anything more than that? The best games of WoL happened in 2012/2013, so not really. I would say PvX has gotten a lot better in HotS. ZvT has definitely devolved. TvT is probably the same? ZvZ probably got worse. WHAT??? pvt has gotten better? the MSC has destroyed the matchup. terran can't punish a protoss who plays greedy and can't compete with them in lategame. so every pvt is 13 minute passive macro into scv pull. do you really think that's better?
In terms of variation, Oracle and Void gained viability. Terran gained WM and Reaper. They're all pretty limited in scope, but I'll admit PvT saw the least improvement of the PvX.
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On October 18 2013 00:31 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 00:27 Doublemint wrote:On October 17 2013 23:53 Aocowns wrote:On October 17 2013 23:51 RampancyTW wrote:On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes? I think the proper answer to this question is STARCRAFT 2 HAS FUNDAMENTAL DESIGN FLAWS BECAUSE MARINES AND STALKERS AND THAT'S WHY WIDOW MINES ALSO BECAUSE WARPGATE Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though. you forgot protoss "Protoss hate train has left station, quick everybody jump on it!" CHOOO CHOOO, MOTHERFUCKER
HAHAHAHA I'll buy a a season ticket for this train 
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Honestly, the 'buff' they are giving Revelation kinda should have been in to start with...
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On October 18 2013 00:31 The_best32 wrote:
WHAT??? pvt has gotten better?
the MSC has destroyed the matchup. terran can't punish a protoss who plays greedy and can't compete with them in lategame.
so every pvt is 13 minute passive macro into scv pull. do you really think that's better?
You forgot the part where any T who is slighly behind can just base race because TURBOVACS and win or draw.
See Happy vs. Stardust. WCS EU.
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On October 18 2013 01:53 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 00:31 The_best32 wrote:
WHAT??? pvt has gotten better?
the MSC has destroyed the matchup. terran can't punish a protoss who plays greedy and can't compete with them in lategame.
so every pvt is 13 minute passive macro into scv pull. do you really think that's better?
You forgot the part where any T who is slighly behind can just base race because TURBOVACS and win or draw. See Happy vs. Stardust. WCS EU.
We both know it doesn't work that way, both of you are speaking in hyperbole and it brings us nowhere.
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On October 18 2013 00:16 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 00:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 17 2013 23:54 The_best32 wrote:On October 17 2013 23:46 Big J wrote:On October 17 2013 22:57 The_best32 wrote:
what about removing muta regen but let wms only attack ground? then who would use mutas against Protoss or Zerg? what role would WMs have at all apart from killing banes? muta switches would still be strong enough vs protoss. and if the muta is nerfed the wm doesn't need another role apart from killing lings and banes. You do however remove the emergency Anti Air Mech needs sometimes to deal with sudden air switches, you also lose a lot of strategical application such as baiting with overlords/overseers. The Widow Mine is a early teching Terrans best defence against Oracles too and plays a pretty big zoning role vs Banshees. Cluster up a bit of the WM attack splash instead of one big "blob" of spash - make them hit first target and cluster on 3 smaller "blobs" instead.. If that proves to be too weak vs Ling/Bane, then just add up another charge that comes up 5 seconds after the first.. That's what I think the unit would work, instead of risk changing everything else in the game..
Nowadays micro from the Zerg side and understanding of the Widow Mines mechanics really doesn't show us a lot of situations in which 'lucky' blasts change the game.
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