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On October 18 2013 17:33 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 16:43 Everlong wrote:
The match-up is stale because Zerg's development (creep/production/tech) is out of control since the Queen patch and Zerg received much stronger mutas and ultras, not to mention the Viper nonsense, further killing off Tank-based play. Even 4M is struggling to bring Zerg's play under control. The core of the problem lies there; Zerg's macro is so powerful that only constant pressure from the Terran side (= 4M) can vaguely tame it. As long as Zerg can safely cover half of the map in creep + get 90 drones + rush Hive against any down-time in midgame, you will not see Tank-based play coming back unless the Tank's strength is dramatically increased (≠ a measly -0.3 attack speed to pretend there is a compensation). Fix this, and then you can tone down the Mine as a support tool for Tank-based play.
I have absolutely no problem with Tanks becoming the norm again in TvZ, but you're simply deluded if you think it all adds up with the proposed changes.
I have to say there is some truth in this. I myself play mech and what I have learnt through my way up to master league is that you absolutely can't attack, because Zerg's production is absolutely out of control since the Queen patch. So the only way to play mech is to turtle. Yesterday I was playing Zerg that has 7RR me with expo backup, I defended with no loses, proceed to get 3rd CC + 2 Armories, secure my third and push out at like 150 supply at about 13/14 minut mark. I got absolutely swarmed with mass units and I couldn't even make it to one of his bases, but I traded at least decently and managed to get my 3/3 and 170//180 army supply back. His 800 drones then managed to get enough resources to make 500 Ultras within 2-3 minuts and he just killed me. We are not even talking about Vipers or Swarm Hosts here. After this game, I promised myself to NEVER EVER attack again and I'm gonna turtle the fuck out of every Zerg I play until they just leave. Sorry, not my fault. :-) Sorry, we were talking about competitive play here, not Big Game Hunters (No Unit Limit).
But but.. Mom, you told me I'm allowed to discuss on internet with other people.. My world is crushed now. Russia so stronk, soooo stronk.. Will you be my new Mom?
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United Kingdom1381 Posts
With the new combined upgrades and siege tank buff, will it be possible to play bio in TvP and then do a full mech switch in the late game?
You generally get the air upgrades anyway (to kill colossus harder and make medivacs harder to snipe) and I can definitely see adding in 3/3 hellbats to deal with late game chargelots.
But would it be worth making tanks and thors on 4 bases or will Protoss easily counter it?
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On October 18 2013 18:42 iHirO wrote:
With the new combined upgrades and siege tank buff, will it be possible to play bio in TvP and then do a full mech switch in the late game?
You generally get the air upgrades anyway (to kill colossus harder and make medivacs harder to snipe) and I can definitely see adding in 3/3 hellbats to deal with late game chargelots.
But would it be worth making tanks and thors on 4 bases or will Protoss easily counter it?
If you find yourself in a position to make such a switch then I guarantee that you can just kill him with bio. Only time mech is viable is the time where you are ahead and will win regardless of composition.
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On October 18 2013 18:42 iHirO wrote:
With the new combined upgrades and siege tank buff, will it be possible to play bio in TvP and then do a full mech switch in the late game?
You generally get the air upgrades anyway (to kill colossus harder and make medivacs harder to snipe) and I can definitely see adding in 3/3 hellbats to deal with late game chargelots.
But would it be worth making tanks and thors on 4 bases or will Protoss easily counter it?
prob not to ground mech, but air mech switch would be super viable, mass bcs raven vikings+ ghost , is pretty gud vs toss late late game
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United Kingdom1381 Posts
On October 18 2013 18:47 MrLightning wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 18:42 iHirO wrote:
With the new combined upgrades and siege tank buff, will it be possible to play bio in TvP and then do a full mech switch in the late game?
You generally get the air upgrades anyway (to kill colossus harder and make medivacs harder to snipe) and I can definitely see adding in 3/3 hellbats to deal with late game chargelots.
But would it be worth making tanks and thors on 4 bases or will Protoss easily counter it? If you find yourself in a position to make such a switch then I guarantee that you can just kill him with bio. Only time mech is viable is the time where you are ahead and will win regardless of composition.
You're probably right, so maybe either only on maps where its possible to turtle (e.g Akilon) or transition slowly (e.g. gradually replace marines with thors, etc).
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On October 18 2013 19:03 Killmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 18:42 iHirO wrote:
With the new combined upgrades and siege tank buff, will it be possible to play bio in TvP and then do a full mech switch in the late game?
You generally get the air upgrades anyway (to kill colossus harder and make medivacs harder to snipe) and I can definitely see adding in 3/3 hellbats to deal with late game chargelots.
But would it be worth making tanks and thors on 4 bases or will Protoss easily counter it? prob not to ground mech, but air mech switch would be super viable, mass bcs raven vikings+ ghost , is pretty gud vs toss late late game
It really is not good against tempest HT at all.
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I am still pretty sure the the wrong matchup is being focused on.
Can someone tell me where to find the PvZ winrates in recent premier tournaments?
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On October 18 2013 20:54 TW wrote:
I am still pretty sure the the wrong matchup is being focused on.
Can someone tell me where to find the PvZ winrates in recent premier tournaments?
It's 51.13% for September, according to Aligulac.
http://www.aligulac.com/reports/balance/
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It's 51.13% for September, according to Aligulac.
I mean in premier tournaments, not on a ladder.
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On October 18 2013 19:16 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 19:03 Killmouse wrote:On October 18 2013 18:42 iHirO wrote:
With the new combined upgrades and siege tank buff, will it be possible to play bio in TvP and then do a full mech switch in the late game?
You generally get the air upgrades anyway (to kill colossus harder and make medivacs harder to snipe) and I can definitely see adding in 3/3 hellbats to deal with late game chargelots.
But would it be worth making tanks and thors on 4 bases or will Protoss easily counter it? prob not to ground mech, but air mech switch would be super viable, mass bcs raven vikings+ ghost , is pretty gud vs toss late late game It really is not good against tempest HT at all.
Point defense drone and tempest is useless
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On October 18 2013 21:09 Killmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 19:16 Bagi wrote:On October 18 2013 19:03 Killmouse wrote:On October 18 2013 18:42 iHirO wrote:
With the new combined upgrades and siege tank buff, will it be possible to play bio in TvP and then do a full mech switch in the late game?
You generally get the air upgrades anyway (to kill colossus harder and make medivacs harder to snipe) and I can definitely see adding in 3/3 hellbats to deal with late game chargelots.
But would it be worth making tanks and thors on 4 bases or will Protoss easily counter it? prob not to ground mech, but air mech switch would be super viable, mass bcs raven vikings+ ghost , is pretty gud vs toss late late game It really is not good against tempest HT at all. Point defense drone and tempest is useless
HT can feedback PDDs.
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On October 18 2013 21:12 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 21:09 Killmouse wrote:On October 18 2013 19:16 Bagi wrote:On October 18 2013 19:03 Killmouse wrote:On October 18 2013 18:42 iHirO wrote:
With the new combined upgrades and siege tank buff, will it be possible to play bio in TvP and then do a full mech switch in the late game?
You generally get the air upgrades anyway (to kill colossus harder and make medivacs harder to snipe) and I can definitely see adding in 3/3 hellbats to deal with late game chargelots.
But would it be worth making tanks and thors on 4 bases or will Protoss easily counter it? prob not to ground mech, but air mech switch would be super viable, mass bcs raven vikings+ ghost , is pretty gud vs toss late late game It really is not good against tempest HT at all. Point defense drone and tempest is useless HT can feedback PDDs.
Cloack ghost snipe obs , snipe hts gg
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On October 18 2013 21:09 Killmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 19:16 Bagi wrote:On October 18 2013 19:03 Killmouse wrote:On October 18 2013 18:42 iHirO wrote:
With the new combined upgrades and siege tank buff, will it be possible to play bio in TvP and then do a full mech switch in the late game?
You generally get the air upgrades anyway (to kill colossus harder and make medivacs harder to snipe) and I can definitely see adding in 3/3 hellbats to deal with late game chargelots.
But would it be worth making tanks and thors on 4 bases or will Protoss easily counter it? prob not to ground mech, but air mech switch would be super viable, mass bcs raven vikings+ ghost , is pretty gud vs toss late late game It really is not good against tempest HT at all. Point defense drone and tempest is useless
It's been tried - it doesn't work.
Tempests always allow to spoon terran far more efficiently than a mass of ravens ever will.
And even if it didn't that's still a bad strategy.
No only does it make for a boring game that can try anyones patience but you'd need to somehow survive the early and mid-game as well.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On October 18 2013 21:05 TW wrote:I mean in premier tournaments, not on a ladder.
Not sure if baiting or serious.
Aligulac tracks results in ALL tournaments.
And yes, protoss players are a bunch of chokers.
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On October 18 2013 21:14 Killmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 21:12 S1eth wrote:On October 18 2013 21:09 Killmouse wrote:On October 18 2013 19:16 Bagi wrote:On October 18 2013 19:03 Killmouse wrote:On October 18 2013 18:42 iHirO wrote:
With the new combined upgrades and siege tank buff, will it be possible to play bio in TvP and then do a full mech switch in the late game?
You generally get the air upgrades anyway (to kill colossus harder and make medivacs harder to snipe) and I can definitely see adding in 3/3 hellbats to deal with late game chargelots.
But would it be worth making tanks and thors on 4 bases or will Protoss easily counter it? prob not to ground mech, but air mech switch would be super viable, mass bcs raven vikings+ ghost , is pretty gud vs toss late late game It really is not good against tempest HT at all. Point defense drone and tempest is useless HT can feedback PDDs. Cloack ghost snipe obs , snipe hts gg
you can do this all day, there's no point in listing counters and counters. Tempest vs PDD is useless because PDD will run out of energy fast if there's a decent number of Tempest's and you don't even have to engage there.
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On October 18 2013 21:27 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 21:05 TW wrote:It's 51.13% for September, according to Aligulac. I mean in premier tournaments, not on a ladder. Not sure if baiting or serious. Aligulac tracks results in ALL tournaments. And yes, protoss players are a bunch of chokers.
I think aligulac saying it was the top of the skill ladder made things confusing.
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You're spamming, not discussing....... Use proof/examples instead of unsupported claims, it leaves more room for discussion that way :-)!
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On October 18 2013 17:42 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 17:33 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 18 2013 16:43 Everlong wrote:
The match-up is stale because Zerg's development (creep/production/tech) is out of control since the Queen patch and Zerg received much stronger mutas and ultras, not to mention the Viper nonsense, further killing off Tank-based play. Even 4M is struggling to bring Zerg's play under control. The core of the problem lies there; Zerg's macro is so powerful that only constant pressure from the Terran side (= 4M) can vaguely tame it. As long as Zerg can safely cover half of the map in creep + get 90 drones + rush Hive against any down-time in midgame, you will not see Tank-based play coming back unless the Tank's strength is dramatically increased (≠ a measly -0.3 attack speed to pretend there is a compensation). Fix this, and then you can tone down the Mine as a support tool for Tank-based play.
I have absolutely no problem with Tanks becoming the norm again in TvZ, but you're simply deluded if you think it all adds up with the proposed changes.
I have to say there is some truth in this. I myself play mech and what I have learnt through my way up to master league is that you absolutely can't attack, because Zerg's production is absolutely out of control since the Queen patch. So the only way to play mech is to turtle. Yesterday I was playing Zerg that has 7RR me with expo backup, I defended with no loses, proceed to get 3rd CC + 2 Armories, secure my third and push out at like 150 supply at about 13/14 minut mark. I got absolutely swarmed with mass units and I couldn't even make it to one of his bases, but I traded at least decently and managed to get my 3/3 and 170//180 army supply back. His 800 drones then managed to get enough resources to make 500 Ultras within 2-3 minuts and he just killed me. We are not even talking about Vipers or Swarm Hosts here. After this game, I promised myself to NEVER EVER attack again and I'm gonna turtle the fuck out of every Zerg I play until they just leave. Sorry, not my fault. :-) Sorry, we were talking about competitive play here, not Big Game Hunters (No Unit Limit). But but.. Mom, you told me I'm allowed to discuss on internet with other people.. My world is crushed now. Russia so stronk, soooo stronk.. Will you be my new Mom?
There is already one Mother Russia. I will just note that if your opponent has 800 drones and 500 ultras at any point in game, you are not playing melee games, and balance is irrelevant to you 
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On October 18 2013 21:27 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 21:14 Killmouse wrote:On October 18 2013 21:12 S1eth wrote:On October 18 2013 21:09 Killmouse wrote:On October 18 2013 19:16 Bagi wrote:On October 18 2013 19:03 Killmouse wrote:On October 18 2013 18:42 iHirO wrote:
With the new combined upgrades and siege tank buff, will it be possible to play bio in TvP and then do a full mech switch in the late game?
You generally get the air upgrades anyway (to kill colossus harder and make medivacs harder to snipe) and I can definitely see adding in 3/3 hellbats to deal with late game chargelots.
But would it be worth making tanks and thors on 4 bases or will Protoss easily counter it? prob not to ground mech, but air mech switch would be super viable, mass bcs raven vikings+ ghost , is pretty gud vs toss late late game It really is not good against tempest HT at all. Point defense drone and tempest is useless HT can feedback PDDs. Cloack ghost snipe obs , snipe hts gg you can do this all day, there's no point in listing counters and counters. Tempest vs PDD is useless because PDD will run out of energy fast if there's a decent number of Tempest's and you don't even have to engage there.
Well, on paper you can just go for mass raven when he goes mass tempests and the energy regeneration really is strong enough to make you basically invulnerable infinitely.
But I'd rather ask:
- How do you get there consistently? (even with merged upgrades, you'd proably need to go Mech to begin with to have those upgrades and all the tech in the lategame... and how viable is defensive Mech play?)
- How do you deal with all the other Protoss possibilities? (Carriers, Voidrays are incredibly powerful as well and cannot be stopped by PDDs)
- How do you deal with massive counterplay? (PDDing one location is nice, but how do you defend 4+ bases that you need for such a composition, once you start your slow push)
In the (few) games I have played Mech/Airmech vs Protoss and the Protoss went for Air compositions in HotS, I have found it easier to deal with pure Tempest/HT than when the core of the units is Carriers/Voidrays.
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On October 18 2013 21:27 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 21:14 Killmouse wrote:On October 18 2013 21:12 S1eth wrote:On October 18 2013 21:09 Killmouse wrote:On October 18 2013 19:16 Bagi wrote:On October 18 2013 19:03 Killmouse wrote:On October 18 2013 18:42 iHirO wrote:
With the new combined upgrades and siege tank buff, will it be possible to play bio in TvP and then do a full mech switch in the late game?
You generally get the air upgrades anyway (to kill colossus harder and make medivacs harder to snipe) and I can definitely see adding in 3/3 hellbats to deal with late game chargelots.
But would it be worth making tanks and thors on 4 bases or will Protoss easily counter it? prob not to ground mech, but air mech switch would be super viable, mass bcs raven vikings+ ghost , is pretty gud vs toss late late game It really is not good against tempest HT at all. Point defense drone and tempest is useless HT can feedback PDDs. Cloack ghost snipe obs , snipe hts gg you can do this all day, there's no point in listing counters and counters. Tempest vs PDD is useless because PDD will run out of energy fast if there's a decent number of Tempest's and you don't even have to engage there.
4:30 till end
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EPT
