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On October 20 2013 10:19 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2013 10:08 ysnake wrote:On October 20 2013 10:02 vthree wrote:On October 20 2013 09:47 ysnake wrote:On October 20 2013 07:19 vthree wrote:
Let's hope that DK is watching the top zergs in WCS and see that WM at actually fine ATM as long as the Zerg micros. If he wants to balance the game for non top tier, then he might as well nerf baneling AoE and storm AoE. Those 2 are just as punishing if not micro'ed against. I'm sorry that I have to reply with such bullshit but here it is: - if you make Widow Mines visible, I have no problem with that, Banelings are visible 98% of the time and storms can be seen with a simple scan Isn't WMs visible if you have overseer? Or are the top Zerg microing using their 'game sense'? In case you haven't noticed, that's the biggest problem with dealing with Widow Mines. Zerg's detection is the worst of all three races, they need a visible, easy to snipe, unit to go in and reveal the burrowed/stealthed units. Other races have it in form of Raven, Observer, Scan, and on top of that, Marines are the core of the army, and consequently, they are the best anti-air in this game (if you don't include buffed Spore Crawlers vs Mutalisks). A Zerg cannot fly over Terran army and see the position of WMs in order to micro. There have been several times where Widow Mines failed completely, and there have been way too many times where they have been way too good. Personally, I have stopped playing Starcraft 2 just because of the Widow Mines, the MU is no longer any fun for me, the game is no fun to me when I see the 12min Marine rally. Note, in order to keep players playing this game, you must make it fun, as I said in a previous post, I doubt that most of us here meet Jaedong, Innovation or Taeja on regular basis, so, making the game fun for all players is essential (Diamond Zerg here). Well, you are suppose to keep the overseers slightly behind your muta ball and have ling bling support underneath. If you are flying your army over the terran with your zerg army, then you have a lot more issues than WMs. Scan cost minerals and are not FREE. Raven is slow as hell and overseers are the least expensive. Funny thing you mention about balance at not the tip top level. Even slightly below the top korean level, terrans are having a hard time. Or do you think all the good foreigners play zerg and protoss? Why do foreign terrans struggle the most? And Diamond terrans have trouble vs splitting vs banes and dodging storms as well. I don't think terrans are too fond of ling bling muta, blink-all-ins, protoss deathballs either. If you want to quit because you lost a game, then it is not the games problem. Generally, players have more fun when they win. But in a 1v1 game, it is pretty hard to have everyone with 60% win rate.
But using the detectors the game provides to spot the cloaked units they were designed to find requires effort 
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On October 20 2013 09:47 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2013 07:19 vthree wrote:
Let's hope that DK is watching the top zergs in WCS and see that WM at actually fine ATM as long as the Zerg micros. If he wants to balance the game for non top tier, then he might as well nerf baneling AoE and storm AoE. Those 2 are just as punishing if not micro'ed against. I'm sorry that I have to reply with such bullshit but here it is: - if you make Widow Mines visible, I have no problem with that, Banelings are visible 98% of the time and storms can be seen with a simple scan
Banelings and Hightemplars can be moving and damaging at the same time. Hightemplars have 2 more abilities than Psionic Storm: Feedback and Morph Motherfucking Archon.
You're right, you replied with really big bullshit.
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On October 19 2013 19:00 Dwayn wrote:
It's a joke that it took them so long to finally address the WM issues. Everyone who isn't completely biased towards T knows they are broken. The "we'll have to wait and see how thing develope" mentality needs to stop. Even the hellbat nerf took them much too long, a unit which was so ridiculously imbalanced it almost funny and sad at the same time. When something is obviously broken just go and fix it asap.
This is dumb as hell. Even in BW, lots of stuff looked "obviously broken" in the abstract. Reavers, for example. Hardcountered all Terran bio, could wipe out a worker line in a single shot. I mean, 100 splash damage per shot at range 8 sounds fucking nuts when you think about it. But it ended up working out, because the game was full of shit like that.
Just looking at a unit or spell and saying this is crazy strong, therefore it must be nerfed, is stupid. If winrates are out of whack because of a unit, or it becomes so dominant that it forces all players into a single playstyle, then sure, change it. But ascertaining that takes time to gather data and let players experiment.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On October 20 2013 10:19 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2013 10:08 ysnake wrote:On October 20 2013 10:02 vthree wrote:On October 20 2013 09:47 ysnake wrote:On October 20 2013 07:19 vthree wrote:
Let's hope that DK is watching the top zergs in WCS and see that WM at actually fine ATM as long as the Zerg micros. If he wants to balance the game for non top tier, then he might as well nerf baneling AoE and storm AoE. Those 2 are just as punishing if not micro'ed against. I'm sorry that I have to reply with such bullshit but here it is: - if you make Widow Mines visible, I have no problem with that, Banelings are visible 98% of the time and storms can be seen with a simple scan Isn't WMs visible if you have overseer? Or are the top Zerg microing using their 'game sense'? In case you haven't noticed, that's the biggest problem with dealing with Widow Mines. Zerg's detection is the worst of all three races, they need a visible, easy to snipe, unit to go in and reveal the burrowed/stealthed units. Other races have it in form of Raven, Observer, Scan, and on top of that, Marines are the core of the army, and consequently, they are the best anti-air in this game (if you don't include buffed Spore Crawlers vs Mutalisks). A Zerg cannot fly over Terran army and see the position of WMs in order to micro. There have been several times where Widow Mines failed completely, and there have been way too many times where they have been way too good. Personally, I have stopped playing Starcraft 2 just because of the Widow Mines, the MU is no longer any fun for me, the game is no fun to me when I see the 12min Marine rally. Note, in order to keep players playing this game, you must make it fun, as I said in a previous post, I doubt that most of us here meet Jaedong, Innovation or Taeja on regular basis, so, making the game fun for all players is essential (Diamond Zerg here). Well, you are suppose to keep the overseers slightly behind your muta ball and have ling bling support underneath. If you are flying your army over the terran with your zerg army, then you have a lot more issues than WMs. Scan cost minerals and are not FREE. Raven is slow as hell and overseers are the least expensive. Funny thing you mention about balance at not the tip top level. Even slightly below the top korean level, terrans are having a hard time. Or do you think all the good foreigners play zerg and protoss? Why do foreign terrans struggle the most? And Diamond terrans have trouble vs splitting vs banes and dodging storms as well. I don't think terrans are too fond of ling bling muta, blink-all-ins, protoss deathballs either. If you want to quit because you lost a game, then it is not the games problem. Generally, players have more fun when they win. But in a 1v1 game, it is pretty hard to have everyone with 60% win rate.
Indeed, Terran is made with intention to give more mechanically inclined players a better edge over other races. As Zerg, there's really little you can do in a battle except a good surround or a good concave or click on big Marine clumps with your Banelings.
Ravens are indeed slow, but you only get Ravens if your opponent is likes burrowed Baneling mines, yes, this is a tedious process with all Mutas flying around, but it's not as tedious as Overseer+Muta micro is.
As Terran, I hate to face Zergs because I suck at splitting, however, I find macro mechanics much easier once you've mastered "tapping" between production facilities (mine are tilde-tab-caps lock or 5-6-7 depending what units I need). Zerg is less forgiving on macro mechanics "oh, I just missed a wave of X unit? let me make 2 of them then!" in that regard.
I did not quit because I lost a game, I love losing games where my opponent is clearly better. And there is no more fun where my clump of everything gets destroyed by a forgotten mine.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On October 20 2013 11:35 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2013 19:00 Dwayn wrote:
It's a joke that it took them so long to finally address the WM issues. Everyone who isn't completely biased towards T knows they are broken. The "we'll have to wait and see how thing develope" mentality needs to stop. Even the hellbat nerf took them much too long, a unit which was so ridiculously imbalanced it almost funny and sad at the same time. When something is obviously broken just go and fix it asap. This is dumb as hell. Even in BW, lots of stuff looked "obviously broken" in the abstract. Reavers, for example. Hardcountered all Terran bio, could wipe out a worker line in a single shot. I mean, 100 splash damage per shot at range 8 sounds fucking nuts when you think about it. But it ended up working out, because the game was full of shit like that. Just looking at a unit or spell and saying this is crazy strong, therefore it must be nerfed, is stupid. If winrates are out of whack because of a unit, or it becomes so dominant that it forces all players into a single playstyle, then sure, change it. But ascertaining that takes time to gather data and let players experiment.
Mech was viable in BW.
Here, it isn't.
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On October 20 2013 11:40 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2013 11:35 awesomoecalypse wrote:On October 19 2013 19:00 Dwayn wrote:
It's a joke that it took them so long to finally address the WM issues. Everyone who isn't completely biased towards T knows they are broken. The "we'll have to wait and see how thing develope" mentality needs to stop. Even the hellbat nerf took them much too long, a unit which was so ridiculously imbalanced it almost funny and sad at the same time. When something is obviously broken just go and fix it asap. This is dumb as hell. Even in BW, lots of stuff looked "obviously broken" in the abstract. Reavers, for example. Hardcountered all Terran bio, could wipe out a worker line in a single shot. I mean, 100 splash damage per shot at range 8 sounds fucking nuts when you think about it. But it ended up working out, because the game was full of shit like that. Just looking at a unit or spell and saying this is crazy strong, therefore it must be nerfed, is stupid. If winrates are out of whack because of a unit, or it becomes so dominant that it forces all players into a single playstyle, then sure, change it. But ascertaining that takes time to gather data and let players experiment. Mech was viable in BW. Here, it isn't.
In BW, Bio was only viable in 1 match.
In SC2, Mech is only viable in 1 match.
Not much difference.
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On October 20 2013 11:38 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2013 10:19 vthree wrote:On October 20 2013 10:08 ysnake wrote:On October 20 2013 10:02 vthree wrote:On October 20 2013 09:47 ysnake wrote:On October 20 2013 07:19 vthree wrote:
Let's hope that DK is watching the top zergs in WCS and see that WM at actually fine ATM as long as the Zerg micros. If he wants to balance the game for non top tier, then he might as well nerf baneling AoE and storm AoE. Those 2 are just as punishing if not micro'ed against. I'm sorry that I have to reply with such bullshit but here it is: - if you make Widow Mines visible, I have no problem with that, Banelings are visible 98% of the time and storms can be seen with a simple scan Isn't WMs visible if you have overseer? Or are the top Zerg microing using their 'game sense'? In case you haven't noticed, that's the biggest problem with dealing with Widow Mines. Zerg's detection is the worst of all three races, they need a visible, easy to snipe, unit to go in and reveal the burrowed/stealthed units. Other races have it in form of Raven, Observer, Scan, and on top of that, Marines are the core of the army, and consequently, they are the best anti-air in this game (if you don't include buffed Spore Crawlers vs Mutalisks). A Zerg cannot fly over Terran army and see the position of WMs in order to micro. There have been several times where Widow Mines failed completely, and there have been way too many times where they have been way too good. Personally, I have stopped playing Starcraft 2 just because of the Widow Mines, the MU is no longer any fun for me, the game is no fun to me when I see the 12min Marine rally. Note, in order to keep players playing this game, you must make it fun, as I said in a previous post, I doubt that most of us here meet Jaedong, Innovation or Taeja on regular basis, so, making the game fun for all players is essential (Diamond Zerg here). Well, you are suppose to keep the overseers slightly behind your muta ball and have ling bling support underneath. If you are flying your army over the terran with your zerg army, then you have a lot more issues than WMs. Scan cost minerals and are not FREE. Raven is slow as hell and overseers are the least expensive. Funny thing you mention about balance at not the tip top level. Even slightly below the top korean level, terrans are having a hard time. Or do you think all the good foreigners play zerg and protoss? Why do foreign terrans struggle the most? And Diamond terrans have trouble vs splitting vs banes and dodging storms as well. I don't think terrans are too fond of ling bling muta, blink-all-ins, protoss deathballs either. If you want to quit because you lost a game, then it is not the games problem. Generally, players have more fun when they win. But in a 1v1 game, it is pretty hard to have everyone with 60% win rate. Indeed, Terran is made with intention to give more mechanically inclined players a better edge over other races. As Zerg, there's really little you can do in a battle except a good surround or a good concave or click on big Marine clumps with your Banelings. Ravens are indeed slow, but you only get Ravens if your opponent is likes burrowed Baneling mines, yes, this is a tedious process with all Mutas flying around, but it's not as tedious as Overseer+Muta micro is. As Terran, I hate to face Zergs because I suck at splitting, however, I find macro mechanics much easier once you've mastered "tapping" between production facilities (mine are tilde-tab-caps lock or 5-6-7 depending what units I need). Zerg is less forgiving on macro mechanics "oh, I just missed a wave of X unit? let me make 2 of them then!" in that regard. I did not quit because I lost a game, I love losing games where my opponent is clearly better. And there is no more fun where my clump of everything gets destroyed by a forgotten mine.
And when you play Terran, don't you have times when you look away from your army too long and they get rolled over by banes? It is the same thing.
And how many percent of your games you lose are because your opponent play better? Or do you just blame cheese, lag, OP units most of the time? It seems like you just don't want to own up to your losses. The way the game is setup, you usual play players of equal skill. So you aren't playing vs Inno and Taeja.
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On October 20 2013 11:58 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2013 11:40 ysnake wrote:On October 20 2013 11:35 awesomoecalypse wrote:On October 19 2013 19:00 Dwayn wrote:
It's a joke that it took them so long to finally address the WM issues. Everyone who isn't completely biased towards T knows they are broken. The "we'll have to wait and see how thing develope" mentality needs to stop. Even the hellbat nerf took them much too long, a unit which was so ridiculously imbalanced it almost funny and sad at the same time. When something is obviously broken just go and fix it asap. This is dumb as hell. Even in BW, lots of stuff looked "obviously broken" in the abstract. Reavers, for example. Hardcountered all Terran bio, could wipe out a worker line in a single shot. I mean, 100 splash damage per shot at range 8 sounds fucking nuts when you think about it. But it ended up working out, because the game was full of shit like that. Just looking at a unit or spell and saying this is crazy strong, therefore it must be nerfed, is stupid. If winrates are out of whack because of a unit, or it becomes so dominant that it forces all players into a single playstyle, then sure, change it. But ascertaining that takes time to gather data and let players experiment. Mech was viable in BW. Here, it isn't. In BW, Bio was only viable in 1 match. In SC2, Mech is only viable in 1 match. Not much difference.
It didn't always used to be like that thought, it was only until Boxer and really good Terrans came along that people started using that Mech playstyle, and it was mostly vs Protoss anyway.
You're actually starting to see many Terrans start playing around with Mech vs Zerg and other matchups. SC tends to follow certain patterns when people come up with good strats that work for periods of time. But there always comes along innovators and people willing to think outside the current meta strats until new play-styles get developed. Anyone who actually followed BW knows this, and everyone complaining knows that happened all the time in BW as well.
And honestly it isn't even the radius of WM that is the problem, it's the fact that they cost practically nothing when the damage they can do is extraordinary. It's the reverse problem the oracle has, the oracle costs way too much for the risk/reward of producing them over the long-term.
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Then lets say WMs are broken. The question then is: What are you proposing to buff for terran? (And then I mean a serious buff, not 10% reduction in siege tank cycle rate). Because it might be broken, but it needs to be broken to keep terran competitive vs zerg.
As Terran, I hate to face Zergs because I suck at splitting, however, I find macro mechanics much easier once you've mastered "tapping" between production facilities (mine are tilde-tab-caps lock or 5-6-7 depending what units I need). Zerg is less forgiving on macro mechanics "oh, I just missed a wave of X unit? let me make 2 of them then!" in that regard.
They are different. Lets say you have a quite long battle vs zerg, and you completely forget to macro during it. Then afterwards you have no army and you have to start producing them again. Meanwhile zerg still has banked larvas from before the fight and those they got passively during the fight, and can remake their army alot quicker.
Note, in order to keep players playing this game, you must make it fun, as I said in a previous post, I doubt that most of us here meet Jaedong, Innovation or Taeja on regular basis, so, making the game fun for all players is essential (Diamond Zerg here).
Agreed that also it needs to be balanced at lower levels. But if it would be so hard for zerg compared to terran, isn't it a bit weird they are played by more people in every league above silver?
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If the Tank buff is not enough, then Blizzard will fix it.
Anyone remember the void ray buffs after it got nerfed severely? Now, look at what the VR is today. It's a pretty good unit without overpowering qualities. Give this game a chance to place in small buffs. If WoL taught us anything, once you go heavy with the buffs/nerfs, it's very hard to go back!
Feel free to whine hard, if that suits you, but I am very happy with how well Blizzard taking care of its game lately 
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On October 20 2013 16:18 hansonslee wrote:
If the Tank buff is not enough, then Blizzard will fix it.
Blizzard already 'fixed' mech play in this expansion.
That they will try to fix bio is exactly what worries us.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 20 2013 10:13 Kare wrote:
I've gone back to brood war, maybe I will give starcraft2 some time again when it gets balanced and properly designed. Wouldn't be hoping for that to happen very soon though.. especially looking at how good these new changes are!
Considering it is already balanced and this patch is rather 'quality of life' patch... Good joke, bro.
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On October 20 2013 17:04 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2013 10:13 Kare wrote:
I've gone back to brood war, maybe I will give starcraft2 some time again when it gets balanced and properly designed. Wouldn't be hoping for that to happen very soon though.. especially looking at how good these new changes are! Considering it is already balanced and this patch is rather 'quality of life' patch... Good joke, bro.
yep its balanced .. aside from tvp i think
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On October 20 2013 11:58 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2013 11:40 ysnake wrote:On October 20 2013 11:35 awesomoecalypse wrote:On October 19 2013 19:00 Dwayn wrote:
It's a joke that it took them so long to finally address the WM issues. Everyone who isn't completely biased towards T knows they are broken. The "we'll have to wait and see how thing develope" mentality needs to stop. Even the hellbat nerf took them much too long, a unit which was so ridiculously imbalanced it almost funny and sad at the same time. When something is obviously broken just go and fix it asap. This is dumb as hell. Even in BW, lots of stuff looked "obviously broken" in the abstract. Reavers, for example. Hardcountered all Terran bio, could wipe out a worker line in a single shot. I mean, 100 splash damage per shot at range 8 sounds fucking nuts when you think about it. But it ended up working out, because the game was full of shit like that. Just looking at a unit or spell and saying this is crazy strong, therefore it must be nerfed, is stupid. If winrates are out of whack because of a unit, or it becomes so dominant that it forces all players into a single playstyle, then sure, change it. But ascertaining that takes time to gather data and let players experiment. Mech was viable in BW. Here, it isn't. In BW, Bio was only viable in 1 match. In SC2, Mech is only viable in 1 match. Not much difference.
Except in BW, mech allowed so much more creativity/diversity within the matchup. Protoss outside of the scout could use so many different compositions including a carrier force. It was positioning vs mobility/bruteforce/etc.
With SC2, the opposing races are always forced to certain compositions (and certain units will never see the light of the day) or else your going to flat out die. If you make tanks suddenly viable to each matchup as the core unit, forgoing mobility for positional fire power.. it enables half of the units from the opposing races relevant again in the meta because they were specifically designed to counter tanks/factory based units. The relationship between positioning/firepower vs mobility is ALOT interesting to watch (think bio vs mech in SC2 TvT) than mobility vs mobility where the consequences are.. units are getting faster and faster!! Soon Oracles/Mutas at this rate will have move speed of 5..
Sadly tanks dont have that "fire power" even with its gimped mobility so it can never be that core unit. Its another reason why you cannot re-create BW "mech" ala positioning/zoning and creating tank lines all around the map because a few tanks cannot hold anything.
Thats why some people think mech in SC2 is boring because you have to create a death ball (theres no choice really). If tanks were really devastating to approach.. T players would actually have incentives to start positioning them to take control of chokes or an area that enables more expansions or retreat path/reinforcements re-creating what BW "mech" was all about. Even in SC2 mech vs mech you don't see this happen outside one tank siege line as having them spread around would mean any one of those points can be exposed by a moderate mech force with hellbats spearheading the weak tank lines. For some of you that don't know, BW TvT mech was actually pretty fast paced (it would be slow to start then the pace would exponentially rise).
I really wish they attempted at making the tank viable to be that core unit (reduce supply/cost or w/e). I also happen to think marauders should be 50 gas or higher because this means you cant get both marauders and tanks if one goes bio.
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On October 20 2013 16:44 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2013 16:18 hansonslee wrote:
If the Tank buff is not enough, then Blizzard will fix it. Blizzard already 'fixed' mech play in this expansion. That they will try to fix bio is exactly what worries us.
Yeap they sure did by introducing tempests, vipers, swarmhosts..
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On October 20 2013 16:44 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2013 16:18 hansonslee wrote:
If the Tank buff is not enough, then Blizzard will fix it. Blizzard already 'fixed' mech play in this expansion. That they will try to fix bio is exactly what worries us.
You don't have to worry about that. Blizzard wouldn't be stupid enough to fix bio. Bio is a part of every match up! To make such changes on that would ruin the game essentially. Right now, mech is the least used route, and it will not affect any other match up as dramatically.
I too think the changes are a bit too little, but hey, I said the same thing about the overseer change, and look at how well Zerg players have been doing against Terran lately!
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On October 18 2013 23:07 Killmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 21:27 Chaggi wrote:On October 18 2013 21:14 Killmouse wrote:On October 18 2013 21:12 S1eth wrote:On October 18 2013 21:09 Killmouse wrote:On October 18 2013 19:16 Bagi wrote:On October 18 2013 19:03 Killmouse wrote:On October 18 2013 18:42 iHirO wrote:
With the new combined upgrades and siege tank buff, will it be possible to play bio in TvP and then do a full mech switch in the late game?
You generally get the air upgrades anyway (to kill colossus harder and make medivacs harder to snipe) and I can definitely see adding in 3/3 hellbats to deal with late game chargelots.
But would it be worth making tanks and thors on 4 bases or will Protoss easily counter it? prob not to ground mech, but air mech switch would be super viable, mass bcs raven vikings+ ghost , is pretty gud vs toss late late game It really is not good against tempest HT at all. Point defense drone and tempest is useless HT can feedback PDDs. Cloack ghost snipe obs , snipe hts gg you can do this all day, there's no point in listing counters and counters. Tempest vs PDD is useless because PDD will run out of energy fast if there's a decent number of Tempest's and you don't even have to engage there. 4:30 till end + Show Spoiler +
if you suddenly come out with mass BC Raven against Protoss and the protoss somehow didn't know about it of course you will win.
But Protoss have things like observers and hallucinated phoenix, last l heard void rays are good against sky terran.
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On October 20 2013 18:45 gobbledydook wrote:
if you suddenly come out with mass BC Raven against Protoss and the protoss somehow didn't know about it of course you will win.
You should watch a bit more of GSL. ( hint : MVP vs Squirtle )
spoiler : toss win :D
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On October 20 2013 17:17 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2013 17:04 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 20 2013 10:13 Kare wrote:
I've gone back to brood war, maybe I will give starcraft2 some time again when it gets balanced and properly designed. Wouldn't be hoping for that to happen very soon though.. especially looking at how good these new changes are! Considering it is already balanced and this patch is rather 'quality of life' patch... Good joke, bro. yep its balanced .. aside from tvp i think
It is balanced if you do enough damage to ride home the victory in TvZ. Your statement without this addition is wrong.
OT: Terran needs aoe in TvZ, badly. And i guess a buff to our T3 units wouldnt be so bad either.
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On October 20 2013 18:58 xongnox wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2013 18:45 gobbledydook wrote:
if you suddenly come out with mass BC Raven against Protoss and the protoss somehow didn't know about it of course you will win. You should watch a bit more of GSL. ( hint : MVP vs Squirtle ) spoiler : toss win :D
But imo that was a herp a derp move by our terran god which shouldnt have happened (iirc). (sry for doublepost, had no coffee yet -__-)
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EPT
