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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On October 20 2013 11:58 Thieving Magpie wrote: In BW, Bio was only viable in 1 match. In SC2, Mech is only viable in 1 match. Not much difference. mech viable versus protoss is a huge difference | ||
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goody153
44020 Posts
On October 20 2013 18:58 xongnox wrote: You should watch a bit more of GSL. ( hint : MVP vs Squirtle ) spoiler : toss win :D vortex was still available that time ..dont complete skyterran rape all kinds of compositions theoretically of course .. i havent seen one yet | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On October 20 2013 19:50 goody153 wrote: vortex was still available that time ..dont complete skyterran rape all kinds of compositions theoretically of course .. i havent seen one yet Tempest wasnt available at that time | ||
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goody153
44020 Posts
ravens pdd do good vs tempest right ? | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Feedback annihilates the PDDs and Ravens and Storm ravages the absurd amount of Vikings you need. Ghosts can get sniped and Feedbacked all the same not to mention they're mostly dead weight once Protoss adds in one or two Colossi. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 20 2013 19:50 goody153 wrote: vortex was still available that time ..dont complete skyterran rape all kinds of compositions theoretically of course .. i havent seen one yet In a "one big engagment"-scenario in TvZ (and TvT) this is probably true - though a Zerg can do a lot to prevent that from ever happening through Static D and Vipers. In TvP (theoretical) Skytoss is probably just stronger, since Carriers counter all Terran Air/Mech units but BCs - which are an extremly soft counter and can be hardcountered through Tempest/VR. | ||
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pmp10
3239 Posts
On October 20 2013 19:50 goody153 wrote: vortex was still available that time ..dont complete skyterran rape all kinds of compositions theoretically of course .. i havent seen one yet Not really. Zergs can spoon it with vipers and protoss with tempests. Believe me - there were pro terrans that tried. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On October 20 2013 19:59 Thezzy wrote: Templar + Tempest is a lategame composition I have yet to see any Terran defeat. Feedback annihilates the PDDs and Ravens and Storm ravages the absurd amount of Vikings you need. Ghosts can get sniped and Feedbacked all the same not to mention they're mostly dead weight once Protoss adds in one or two Colossi. Well ghost cloack/raven/BC can beat this I guess It's probably a matter of control during the fight (and its probably way harder for the terran than the protoss) | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On October 20 2013 20:03 pmp10 wrote: Not really. Zergs can spoon it with vipers and protoss with tempests. Believe me - there were pro terrans that tried. Well actually Skyterran vZ destroy everything zerg... But thats only for TvZ I never saw any terran lose with Sky vZ | ||
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pmp10
3239 Posts
On October 20 2013 20:04 Insoleet wrote: Well actually Skyterran vZ destroy everything zerg... But thats only for TvZ I never saw any terran lose with Sky vZ You can watch Strelok stream if you want to see it. It's certainly not a weak style in the deciding-engagement but the mid-game attrition is simply too high. On October 20 2013 20:03 Insoleet wrote: Well ghost cloack/raven/BC can beat this I guess It's probably a matter of control during the fight (and its probably way harder for the terran than the protoss) The problem is not that it's harder but requires protoss to blunder. The only time I've seen this style work was when protoss got his tempests nuked. | ||
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SSVnormandy
France392 Posts
I never saw any terran lose with Sky vZ you can go watch games of thorzain where caster were completely annoyed by a stale match where zerg crushes piece by piece a skyterran +mech with static D, vipers SH corruptors. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On October 20 2013 20:16 SSVnormandy wrote: you can go watch games of thorzain where caster were completely annoyed by a stale match where zerg crushes piece by piece a skyterran +mech with static D, vipers SH corruptors. Also Lucifron vs ICan'tRemember from a recent Dreamhack i think. Very ugly games that. Makes Infestor BL look like "the good old times".... | ||
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Cereb
Denmark3388 Posts
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Killmouse
Austria5700 Posts
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bhfberserk
Canada390 Posts
First of all, they said they want to fix mech in HOTS. So we see stuff like: 1) Widow mines. Which originally came from a thing call the shredder. It is an unit that works outside of the army for cheap, easy board control. "We want something not added to the ball of death." @6:28 In theory, that would help mech to gain more map control... Well, everyone knows that is not what happened to WM in HOTS. It just replaced siege tank completely in TvZ. No more Marine Tank or mech in TvZ. 2) There is a +damage to shield for the WM, but never ever would Blizzard just try to buff the tanks in TvP. There is no mech in TvP. Mech in not viable in TvP. We don't even see much WMs play in TvP anyway except some early game harassment. 3) Thor - Heavy Anti Armour mode. This is a great addition to mech in TvZ. Back in WOL, TvZ mech is all about hitting a timing before broodlord. This created a coin-flip situation. In general speaking, it is either the Zerg player can hold long enough to get Bloodlords or get completely rolled over by 20 tanks. With Thors having a buff in anti-broodlord, TvZ mech against broodlord compositions actually become a dance. Whoever have the better positioning/mirco often wins. -BUT then they added Viper.... Which completely kills mech TvZ. The viper has 2 spells that completely hard counter tanks. It is even more a hard counter than the immortal. Seriously Blizzard. Do we ever see mech in TvP? Why not try a +shield damage on the tank for once. | ||
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pmp10
3239 Posts
On October 20 2013 23:18 bhfberserk wrote: Sometimes I don't even understand what is Blizzard doing. First of all, they said they want to fix mech in HOTS. [...] Seriously Blizzard. Do we ever see mech in TvP? Why not try a +shield damage on the tank for once. You need to see the bigger picture - initially Blizzard really intended for mech to work TvP. All 3 new terran units were meant specifically for that match-up: - widow mines were supposed to help with safe openings which mech TvP lacks (hence hitting cloaked targets like DTs) - hellbats are there to counter chargelots overrunning siege-tanks - warhounds to contest stalkers for map control and counter immortals Of course within 2 weeks they changed their mind completely and had no problem with mech nerfs/counters since then. Blizzard attitude towards mech is a simple case of moving the goalposts in the interest of ass-covering. They will say that it's not that they failed to make it work . Instead mech shouldn't have ever worked in the first place. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 20 2013 23:35 pmp10 wrote: You need to see the bigger picture - initially Blizzard really intended for mech to work TvP. All 3 new terran units were meant specifically for that match-up: - widow mines were supposed to help with safe openings which mech TvP lacks (hence hitting cloaked targets like DTs) - hellbats are there to counter chargelots overrunning siege-tanks - warhounds to contest stalkers for map control and counter immortals Of course within 2 weeks they changed their mind completely and had no problem with mech nerfs/counters since then. Blizzard attitude towards mech is a simple case of moving the goalposts in the interest of ass-covering. They will say that it's not that they failed to make it work . Instead mech shouldn't have ever worked in the first place. I think from blizzard's point of view it comes down to the following question: Do we want to make Mech work, despite it being extremly limiting to the game's design? Why do I think that they think so? Because anything they added to the game from WoL to HotS seems to be a counter to the playstyle. So they are probably thinking that they have to screw the game over too much to make it work. I don't think so, I think there are sweetspots that they could hit. But they are not going to hit them with "just buff it in some way", but need to tinker it in very specific ways. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
On October 20 2013 23:35 pmp10 wrote: You need to see the bigger picture - initially Blizzard really intended for mech to work TvP. All 3 new terran units were meant specifically for that match-up: - widow mines were supposed to help with safe openings which mech TvP lacks (hence hitting cloaked targets like DTs) - hellbats are there to counter chargelots overrunning siege-tanks - warhounds to contest stalkers for map control and counter immortals Good one, i will just go with roles they noted for terran units in their Blizzcon demo: Shredder: space control, the thing SC2 mech SUDDENLY lacked. Warhound: counter to tanks in TvT. Hellbat: yes, to tank for rest of mech. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On October 20 2013 21:44 Sapphire.lux wrote: Also Lucifron vs ICan'tRemember from a recent Dreamhack i think. Very ugly games that. Makes Infestor BL look like "the good old times".... Don't blame mech for that, blame the god awful maps. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On October 20 2013 23:51 Big J wrote: I think from blizzard's point of view it comes down to the following question: Do we want to make Mech work, despite it being extremly limiting to the game's design? Why exactly? | ||
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