EPTThe last fight might be slightly more realistic, but really, the toss there has 3 high templar against something like 10 ghosts + shitload of energy based units.
Balance Test map Changes - Page 28
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Sissors
1395 Posts
The last fight might be slightly more realistic, but really, the toss there has 3 high templar against something like 10 ghosts + shitload of energy based units. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On October 18 2013 22:48 Big J wrote: Well, on paper you can just go for mass raven when he goes mass tempests and the energy regeneration really is strong enough to make you basically invulnerable infinitely. But I'd rather ask: - How do you get there consistently? (even with merged upgrades, you'd proably need to go Mech to begin with to have those upgrades and all the tech in the lategame... and how viable is defensive Mech play?) - How do you deal with all the other Protoss possibilities? (Carriers, Voidrays are incredibly powerful as well and cannot be stopped by PDDs) - How do you deal with massive counterplay? (PDDing one location is nice, but how do you defend 4+ bases that you need for such a composition, once you start your slow push) In the (few) games I have played Mech/Airmech vs Protoss and the Protoss went for Air compositions in HotS, I have found it easier to deal with pure Tempest/HT than when the core of the units is Carriers/Voidrays. If only we knew... Mech might actually be viable in TvP... Honestly, I clicked it and saw it wasn't a real game and was just qxc theorycrafting, and I stopped watching. Watch any of the more "famous" mech streamers. Hell, watch one of Avilo's games and you see him running around with lots of Ravens, trading well up to the late game point, and just fall apart when Tempest's come in. Only when large amounts of seekers connect does he win. Avilo isn't the best player, but he does know how to use Raven's and uses it a lot in a real game situation. Not a theorycraft. | ||
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hansonslee
United States2027 Posts
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Kalfos
Dominican Republic34 Posts
On October 19 2013 09:16 hansonslee wrote: I hope we get to see more mech someday. At least, WM nerf wasn't as crippling as last time I think if we want to see more Mech in both TvZ or TvP without doing too much changes to the Siege Tanks and other Mech units they would have to do some drastic changes. Honestly a 10% Increased Attack Speed wont change much in a 10 second engagement where you would only get 1 extra shot. They could add a (+# vs. shields) to Siege Tanks and Thor's to increase the damage vs Protoss while maintaining the same of damage against Zergs but I'm not too sure it would work that effective. They could also reduce the cost of getting armory's. It's too expensive to get both armory's and afford to set up 4-5 factories and then start producing units at the same time. They could try and reduce the Armory price down to 100 Minerals & 50 Gas. I mean there are some changes that could make it viable but It feels like they are too afraid to try them even on there test maps (you would think they'd used them for such reasons) and see how they work. | ||
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pmp10
3401 Posts
On October 19 2013 12:29 Kalfos wrote: I think if we want to see more Mech in both TvZ or TvP without doing too much changes to the Siege Tanks and other Mech units they would have to do some drastic changes. Honestly a 10% Increased Attack Speed wont change much in a 10 second engagement where you would only get 1 extra shot. That's precisely the problem. Blizzard is willing to consider a 60% nerf on the widow mine but the absolute upper bounds of a tank buff is 10%. This makes it clear that they will never agree to a sizable mech buff unless a virtual lynch mob starts gathering like was the case with infestors. And this is what happened in a mech oriented expansion. Think what the future could bring with LotV. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 19 2013 16:01 pmp10 wrote: That's precisely the problem. Blizzard is willing to consider a 60% nerf on the widow mine but the absolute upper bounds of a tank buff is 10%. This makes it clear that they will never agree to a sizable mech buff unless a virtual lynch mob starts gathering like was the case with infestors. And this is what happened in a mech oriented expansion. Think what the future could bring with LotV. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggggggg. Which 60% nerf? Which 10% buff? Mines are not 60% worse when you nerf the splash area by 60% (which they don't even do). Tanks are not 10% better when you buff the attack speed of them by 10%. Isolated those numbers say absolutly nothing about how the unit will perform afterwards. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
But their primary goal is to take out (bane)lings in TvZ. There a 60% lower area will generally just mean 60% lower damage. Secondary is vs mutas, where the single target damage is reasonably important, so there it will be a bit better, but still a huge nerf. Granted with the last ideas it isn't 60% anymore, but it was in the first iteration. And tanks are indeed 11% better, not 10%, woopdiedoop. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
This is the thing I hate about TvP. Its a matchup balanced on a knife-edge relationship in the form of EMP/Feedbacks/Snipes which is not fun to watch or play. Its the matchup that really emphasis the flaws of SC2's countering the counter system. Generally speaking, I really think Blizzard needs to get rid of this relationship that causes TvP to be so boring to watch (lets dance with your opponents blob because I dont wanna slip!) and frustrating to play. Feedbacks I think are the biggest issue (ever since the days of WoL). Doesn't have to researched, and it affects all energy based units which is almost half the T units. I can see why such a spell had to be researched and be only available to a dark archon which couldn't attack in BW. In the same token, snipe and emp should be removed from the ghost and given to another unit like the raven. Terran needs an incentive to use the gas bank .. but all of their high tech units are useless and relatively get countered very easily. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 19 2013 16:31 Sissors wrote: Mines are 60% worse when you nerf their splash area with 60% against zerglings and banelings. It is true that for example vs toss they aren't much worse, considering there they aren't used at all. And when they are used it is really early game to single shot some units. But their primary goal is to take out (bane)lings in TvZ. There a 60% lower area will generally just mean 60% lower damage. Secondary is vs mutas, where the single target damage is reasonably important, so there it will be a bit better, but still a huge nerf. Granted with the last ideas it isn't 60% anymore, but it was in the first iteration. And tanks are indeed 11% better, not 10%, woopdiedoop. Not really. Units have certain formations when moving which affect the real splash output greatly. Not to mention that you haven't done the human component, as people don't run with maximum clumps into mines. E.g. in a scenario where a guy only runs 1-10units forward, the difference between a 1.75 and a 1.1 radius mine is surely not 60%. 60% is a theoretical maximum. And then you still only calculated how their splash damage was nerfed. Their main target damage which is incredibly important (mutas, roaches, ultralisks) stays the same. So does the amount of hits they can take. You'd have to nerf all of that by 60% as well to get an 60% nerf to the unit. | ||
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FragQuenz
Germany21 Posts
so why do we nerf the widow mine? AND why dont we change Storm the same way? | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On October 19 2013 17:54 FragQuenz wrote: To quote some progames: "terran is weak at the moment" so why do we nerf the widow mine? AND why dont we change Storm the same way? Same like winfestors, they weren't a support unit, they were the core of the army. | ||
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Dwayn
Germany949 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 19 2013 19:17 Grumbels wrote: I don't understand, are they no longer considering the tank change? It is still there IIRC, they just tweaked oracle and WM changes. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On October 20 2013 07:19 vthree wrote: Let's hope that DK is watching the top zergs in WCS and see that WM at actually fine ATM as long as the Zerg micros. If he wants to balance the game for non top tier, then he might as well nerf baneling AoE and storm AoE. Those 2 are just as punishing if not micro'ed against. I'm sorry that I have to reply with such bullshit but here it is: - if you make Widow Mines visible, I have no problem with that, Banelings are visible 98% of the time and storms can be seen with a simple scan | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On October 20 2013 09:47 ysnake wrote: I'm sorry that I have to reply with such bullshit but here it is: - if you make Widow Mines visible, I have no problem with that, Banelings are visible 98% of the time and storms can be seen with a simple scan Isn't WMs visible if you have overseer? Or are the top Zerg microing using their 'game sense'? It would be funny if they made WM castable without burrowing similar to storms and same range. And then the zergs will know what is OP... | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On October 20 2013 10:02 vthree wrote: Isn't WMs visible if you have overseer? Or are the top Zerg microing using their 'game sense'? In case you haven't noticed, that's the biggest problem with dealing with Widow Mines. Zerg's detection is the worst of all three races, they need a visible, easy to snipe, unit to go in and reveal the burrowed/stealthed units. Other races have it in form of Raven, Observer, Scan, and on top of that, Marines are the core of the army, and consequently, they are the best anti-air in this game (if you don't include buffed Spore Crawlers vs Mutalisks). A Zerg cannot fly over Terran army and see the position of WMs in order to micro. There have been several times where Widow Mines failed completely, and there have been way too many times where they have been way too good. Personally, I have stopped playing Starcraft 2 just because of the Widow Mines, the MU is no longer any fun for me, the game is no fun to me when I see the 12min Marine rally. Note, in order to keep players playing this game, you must make it fun, as I said in a previous post, I doubt that most of us here meet Jaedong, Innovation or Taeja on regular basis, so, making the game fun for all players is essential (Diamond Zerg here). | ||
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On October 20 2013 10:08 ysnake wrote: In case you haven't noticed, that's the biggest problem with dealing with Widow Mines. Zerg's detection is the worst of all three races, they need a visible, easy to snipe, unit to go in and reveal the burrowed/stealthed units. Other races have it in form of Raven, Observer, Scan, and on top of that, Marines are the core of the army, and consequently, they are the best anti-air in this game (if you don't include buffed Spore Crawlers vs Mutalisks). A Zerg cannot fly over Terran army and see the position of WMs in order to micro. There have been several times where Widow Mines failed completely, and there have been way too many times where they have been way too good. Personally, I have stopped playing Starcraft 2 just because of the Widow Mines, the MU is no longer any fun for me, the game is no fun to me when I see the 12min Marine rally. Note, in order to keep players playing this game, you must make it fun, as I said in a previous post, I doubt that most of us here meet Jaedong, Innovation or Taeja on regular basis, so, making the game fun for all players is essential (Diamond Zerg here). Well, you are suppose to keep the overseers slightly behind your muta ball and have ling bling support underneath. If you are flying your army over the terran with your zerg army, then you have a lot more issues than WMs. Scan cost minerals and are not FREE. Raven is slow as hell and overseers are the least expensive. Funny thing you mention about balance at not the tip top level. Even slightly below the top korean level, terrans are having a hard time. Or do you think all the good foreigners play zerg and protoss? Why do foreign terrans struggle the most? And Diamond terrans have trouble vs splitting vs banes and dodging storms as well. I don't think terrans are too fond of ling bling muta, blink-all-ins, protoss deathballs either. If you want to quit because you lost a game, then it is not the games problem. Generally, players have more fun when they win. But in a 1v1 game, it is pretty hard to have everyone with 60% win rate. | ||
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