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I love it when Blizzard posts the upcoming patch changes the "community" is all: "about time, the game is getting so stale, we need changes. Same units and strategies over and over."
Then this, now it is: "yeah they patch too much, they need to slow down and let the game develop."
Stay spineless sc2 community, stay spineless.
Or possibly:
+ Show Spoiler +Contrary to popular believe, there isn't some hive-mind entity known as "the community," and it is actually just a lot of people with different opinions on the game, most of which are uninformed and worthless. Imagine that.
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On October 01 2013 07:10 HardlyNever wrote:I love it when Blizzard posts the upcoming patch changes the "community" is all: "about time, the game is getting so stale, we need changes. Same units and strategies over and over." Then this, now it is: "yeah they patch too much, they need to slow down and let the game develop." Stay spineless sc2 community, stay spineless. Or possibly: + Show Spoiler +Contrary to popular believe, there isn't some hive-mind entity known as "the community," and it is actually just a lot of people with different opinions on the game, most of which are uninformed and worthless. Imagine that.
Uninformed critics love to speak loud, hoping that people will listen to them.
Right now, I think Blizzard is doing a much better job especially with their new balance patch!
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david kim killing e-sport since 2012
honestly he the reason im not playing sc2 anymore .... this game could be fun but he nerf everything who come out in 1 week time frame ( when that terran ) and 5 months time frame when that zerg .
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On October 01 2013 07:03 hansonslee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 06:48 BuzzKillington wrote:On October 01 2013 06:39 Gaizokubanou wrote:On October 01 2013 06:36 BuzzKillington wrote:On October 01 2013 06:22 Kasaraki wrote: By the way, I hope you guys aren't going to completely buy this oov bravado, the guy has not even been coaching for 2 weeks yet, and part of this time was chuseok. The guy loves to talk big, and he's making things sound very black and white. :p Black and white talk seems wrong in completely logical thinking. But when you want to make a difference in this world, 100% logical thinking and safe talking is not gonna get you anywhere. It usually shows that you actually have no strong opinions and unsure about lots of things. So are you saying people should be thinking less logically and more dangerously (whatever that even means) for sake of it? You might be onto a good point but man the way you worded your point is just... bad 100% logical thinking and complete factual talk usually means everything has two sides(because everything in this world indeed has two sides), it shows that speaker has no strong opinion, which results into no accomplishments.To make a difference, people need to choose a side, and be strong with it. LOL, so noticing the gray areas or the black and white stripes make me a very illogical person. Okay, that means a lot of business decisions are illogical, even though negotiations is the corner stone of good business practices. Oh, that also means that the way the US Constitution is made was illogical. But you also mean that people like Rush Limbaugh, a very notorious US conservative, is logical because he has a black/white perspective. People such as Steve Jobs can have a black and white perspective of things and be successful. But you will surprised how many people who have such linear thinking such as the political activists in the US are nothing more but annoying gnats. Therefore, black and white perspective doesn't make you an accomplished person. Finally, having a strong opinion doesn't mean having a black and white personality. I think what you should be saying is that those who are successful are those who are committed to their goal. Having a black and white personality makes you very inflexible and less likely to accomplish something because your plan for success can be hindered by multiple obstacles.
Too long to read the whole thing. Just this Rush Limbaugh thing. Rush Limbaugh is doing great in his own way to make a difference in American's political landscape, and he indeed made a big difference for many years. Even if you say his side is wrong(and I agree), he still made a difference on his own, that's all I am saying. This kind of people usually make bigger difference to our society than those 100% logical people. World is not logical, treat it with 100% logical is sometimes wrong, especially when talking to a crowd or community, they are never rational.
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I think to be taken seriously as an esports there should be no changes during the season and only minor tweaks in the off-season once a year. If balance is a concern then that ought to be addressed by maps.
I don't think that's realistic though, and you have to question whether it's really in the interest of the game to let hellbats run rampant for an entire year just because of some 'no-patch' principle. Yes, it's unfair that Blizzard is directly sabotaging Innovation's career by nerfing his favorite strategy, and it's even more worrisome that iloveoov is actually afraid that any powerful strategies he creates will be nerfed by Blizzard, but isn't it the best decision still?
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I guess the problem with the BL/Infestor era was that they didn't patch and didn't change the mappool. You can either change unit stats or throw out (good) maps on a regular basis. But Blizz has a tradition of screwing up maps . . .
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oov is right as he tends to always be. I love his interviews because he is honest about what he sees.
I remember seeing a picture of how someone portrays how Riot, Valve and Blizzard patches things. Riot does things little by little, Valve buffs everything else to match what's strongest (or attempt to) and Blizzard nerfs things into the ground. I'm sorry David Kim, you are one of the reasons why I have stopped playing SC2 and stopped watching the game as a whole.
No one finds it odd on Bisu's retirement interview on how dire the SC2 scene is in Korea? How little the fans came after SC2 replaced BW? None of these are coincidences. I guess, good luck SC2 is about all I can say because LoL and DotA 2 have taken over.
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Nah, the gaming industry has changed. If you don't make changes to SC2 balance in 10 years, the game will be dead in 2 years.
Constant intervention to disrupt single optimality is the only way to keep a competitive game alive.
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On October 01 2013 05:40 disciple wrote: He is right about a lot of things but at the same time he dismisses the fact sc2 doesn't have 8 years of time for build innovations and map making. Blizzard went global with SC2 and foreigners just lose/move their interest whenever they see game commercials on the TV. There's just no time for SC2 to become scbw naturally.
He's saying that the problem is the fact that SC2 does not even have 1 year of development as each patch resets the timer.
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I don't think letting the game sit and change naturally is a strategy that is suitable for the current gaming world. People will just get bored
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As much as I like reading those interviews, I don't think David Kim's current approach to balance is bad. Sure, he made some unnecessary patching in the past, but you have to consider that people other than progamers are playing the game, and being frustrated by the same balance issues. In BW the mechanical skill ceiling was so high it didn't really matter for amateurs, but in SC2, when some builds or end game compositions become a problem for all (e.g. end of WoL Zerg), it's time to fix it.
What's funny is that end of WoL Zerg was a period of very little patching from the design team, and it almost killed the game competitively. Maybe after 3 years people would have found reliable ways to win some GSL while not playing Zerg, but as someone said above, SC2 doesn't have that kind of time.
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On October 01 2013 07:07 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 06:55 DinoToss wrote:On October 01 2013 06:45 rd wrote: I can't take this Oov interview too seriously. He's very vague when he refers very to David Kim over-balancing the game. He doesn't mention any specific patches, he just makes the blanket statement of an observation that David Kim balances too much, which the interviewer unfortunately did not press at all.
Blizzard said they'd stop shaking up the metagame . If you compare the balanace patches in the first six weeks of WoL vs the first six weeks of HotS, it's night and day. They actually let broodlord infestor dominate the metagame for so damn long rather than nerf it into the ground to allow SOME player to take a crack at solving it.
It's really sad how eager everyone is to hop on the david kim/blizzard shitstorm train with any slight provocation or reason. Are you SERIOUS? They buffed queens, the buffed infestors. And then you use argument "and they stopped, be happy". And then you put the blame on people, to figure out how to beat buffed queens and buffed infestors which in fact were the reason why the mass infestor style and multiple queen style which with conjuction enabled the BL-Inf style to emerge. Because of how good queen buff happened to be. So after Blizz put all this mess (QUEEN BUFF) you say it was their good heart that made people figure out how to deal with that mess themselves. Good thinking. You're literally disagree'ing with Oov right now. They said they'd stop patching so much, and they did what they said. I mean, you're reading into an interview calling for Blizzard to stop patching so much, yet they wouldn't nerf (or unbuff) a unit (queen) which clearly shouldn't have buffed in the first place in hindsight. Is that not the epitome of following the directive that Oov wants? Don't touch the metagame, even if it's broken! They never touched it! You can't have it both ways, and Blizzard took the correct stance. How can you criticize them for that? You're a monumental hypocrite. And where in the fuck did I say blame the players? Blizzard, Oov, AND myself are not blaming players. They want the players to solve the problems, not balance patches. That's not blaming the players. That's giving them the opportunity to innovate and revolutionize. And Blizzard's resolve to stop patching, even despite having just released an imbalanced patch, were stringent. Because who the fuck would have known 6 months from then that no player would have solved it. You? Hindsight is 20/20 they say. Blizzard gave them the opportunity, thats what counts. Holy fucking bias. edit: I'm not sure if I should be more upset at Oov for those comments which I hope were unintentionally vague, or the community for eating them up like brainless zombies with no thought into their validity. Sorry, i didn't preface my post saying im not making binary statements.
Me saying that "Oov is right", and me saying that youi shouldn't compare bl inf bullshit to the formula of "player devising counter's, not david kim" can be right. If i preface my points saying that the reasons why bl inf domination happened were all nonsesical. You cannot accept players to fight problems that happen from nonsensical reasons. This is not what Oov postulated. Because look what happens, players leave the game, because they know that expansion is coming, so they know that "FIX" is coming regardless of anything.
Players should solve problems, not balance patches. But what terrans solved when queen balance patch happened(for balance patch to happen there needs to be something imbalanced first), which created a problem. So maybe blizzard is here to create a problem for players, that would work but doing so they are in fact also destroying the scheme.
Blizzard is here to give tools and players to devise strategies nad counter strategies, i think we all lost that long ago, because every strategy runs its course gets into dangerous peak and gets nerfed and/or end with the end of game (WoL).
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i cant believe that someone as smart and respected as oov would give such a terrible interview
Reporter: I think you're referring to something other than balance.
"Let's compare the two games; In SC1, they only released bug patches and was relatively untouched for ten years. We would do starleagues where at times there would only be one or two protosses. Terrans would occupy more than half the pool. If David Kim were there at that time he would have buffed protoss. That would have meant that we would have been without the exciting and awe-inspiring play of Bisu's prime. Protoss was the minority race and difficult. Thus, its play was given birth to by players like Reach and Nal_Ra. To be frank, I think it is David Kim who creates the winner when it is the gamer who must create the game. It doesn't matter what I say though; the truth is David Kim will keep on tweaking the game. I don't know what his true motives are. Is it to create a 5:5:5 of balance? I truly do not know."
kepsa basically did the same exact thing by making race favored maps, and what he fails to mention is all the players who wernt geniuses like ra/reach/bisu who wernt able to be competitive. take xellos for example, he was a player who was never really smart/talented but his work ethic made him one of the greatest terrans of his time. whos to say there wasnt a protoss that had the same drive/dedication as xellos but never managed to make it big due to the game not being figured out?
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I don't think the hands off approach really works in SC2 because the metagame seems to get stuck otherwise. It feels like the metagame doesn't really develop... it converges for each race to "how it is supposed to be played".
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Too bad Oov doesn't know that sc2 is a dying dog, it is through injecting these patches that we see a glimpse life returning to this game. Sc2 is losing players/viewers everyday, as bad as it sounds patches gets peoples attention and gets them to log on.
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On October 01 2013 07:58 SinCitta wrote: I don't think the hands off approach really works in SC2 because the metagame seems to get stuck otherwise. It feels like the metagame doesn't really develop... it converges for each race to "how it is supposed to be played".
The same thing would happen in BW and so they'd just make imba maps to "patch" the metagame.
The difference between making imba maps and tweaking units is that changing maps simply changes build orders, not unit dynamics.
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I really want to make a map where i can test a few patches where Hellbat buff warhoud still exist and winfestors still existed and see what its like hahaha I never got to play in that era
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On October 01 2013 05:40 disciple wrote: He is right about a lot of things but at the same time he dismisses the fact sc2 doesn't have 8 years of time for build innovations and map making. Blizzard went global with SC2 and foreigners just lose/move their interest whenever they see game commercials on the TV. There's just no time for SC2 to become scbw naturally.
I'm sorry, but this is typical neo-gen SC2 rationalization.
BW's unreachable skillcap, dynamic gameplay and infinite potential of units is what led the game to evolution and brought awe inspiring moments. SC2 is a much more stiff game and it will remain the same for years to come, because the people whose voice matters don't speak up about the fundamental design problems of the SC2. Instead they praise it and create fake hype around it to keep the revenue coming. SC2 will never evolve like BW, it's more than clear now. It's been 3+ years (9 of them were BL/Inf mind you) of streams and hundreds of tournaments, watching the same builds over and over and games ending after one engagement.
Seeing iloove speaking the truth is refreshing. Sadly it's not enough to pierce through the Platemail of Arrogance that Blizzard is wearing so proudly.
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On October 01 2013 07:55 TT1 wrote: i cant believe that someone as smart and respected as oov would give such a terrible interview
Reporter: I think you're referring to something other than balance.
"Let's compare the two games; In SC1, they only released bug patches and was relatively untouched for ten years. We would do starleagues where at times there would only be one or two protosses. Terrans would occupy more than half the pool. If David Kim were there at that time he would have buffed protoss. That would have meant that we would have been without the exciting and awe-inspiring play of Bisu's prime. Protoss was the minority race and difficult. Thus, its play was given birth to by players like Reach and Nal_Ra. To be frank, I think it is David Kim who creates the winner when it is the gamer who must create the game. It doesn't matter what I say though; the truth is David Kim will keep on tweaking the game. I don't know what his true motives are. Is it to create a 5:5:5 of balance? I truly do not know."
kepsa basically did the same exact thing by making race favored maps, and what he fails to mention is that all the players who wernt geniuses like ra/reach/bisu wernt able to be competitive. take xellos for example, he was a player who was never really smart/talented but his work ethic made him one of the greatest terrans of his time. whos to say there wasnt a protoss that had the same drive/dedication as xellos but never managed to make it big due to the game not being figured out?
In the era of replays? Come on now (that's with regards to Mr. Perfect Terran). It's not like no one was aware of what Bisu did to Savior either man (I mean didn't we have someone bring that up recently in the BW forums? yeah we did). <<Insert obligatory "omgosh such a Terran favored map" here *eye roll*>> and I call bullshit on not having the same drive or dedication. It's like you guys forget about players like fOru and Zeus, etc.
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I agree w/ his thoughts on the patching though it's hard to support an esport when the community doesn't like to watch because of the imbalance.
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