EPTiloveoov's interview after returning to SKT - Page 7
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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hansonslee
United States2027 Posts
On October 01 2013 11:18 Xiphos wrote: Ok this is a simple concept to apprehend and still unsure why many are puzzled by it. Inventing a new strategy to dominate the scene by storm and solving that said strategy by a new one is good storyline and build hype while having a new strategy neutered with nobody to contest it in the first place destroys reward and boring. And fans would rather choose the former, how hard is it to understand? Its very basic. I think, like the players, a lot of the Brood War fans cling onto the Glory Days of Starcraft. I personally like the Brood War scenes of dominance, but SC2 is not like that, which I have accepted a long time ago. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On October 01 2013 11:24 hansonslee wrote: I think, like the players, a lot of the Brood War fans cling onto the Glory Days of Starcraft. I personally like the Brood War scenes of dominance, but SC2 is not like that, which I have accepted a long time ago. I refuse to accept. Its time for a second coming. | ||
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hansonslee
United States2027 Posts
On October 01 2013 11:27 Xiphos wrote: I refuse to accept. Its time for a second coming. It's okay. I understand your pain. Sometimes, when I read Flash's and Jaedong's interviews, I feel really Really REALLY sad for them! T____T | ||
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic624 Posts
On October 01 2013 05:47 Musicus wrote: iloveoov seems like a boss. But what is David Kim supposed to do. There are always people complaining, either about balance or about too many patches. It doesn't really matter now anyways. Until LotV is released sc2 is in fact a never ending beta test, so let's wait for 2 years after it has been released. Then the balance patches will stop and the real meta starts. Edit: Also, not responding to the Emperor? wtf pretty much my thoughts as well... until LOTV get out we will have to get patches | ||
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ETisME
12474 Posts
We saw how infestor broodlord killed almost the whole viewership number and zerg just dominating the scene. Even if WoL had the tools to "fix" this, the "fix" might not come for years (we saw how even after nerfing infestors, zerg dominance just continued, imaged infestors weren't even nerfed) the so called strategy he is recommending comes in a form of opening/timing push, just like how toss uses immortal sentries all in to kill the zerg before it's too late or bomber 2-2 timing. This is also when it leads to 99% of the game is immortal sentries all in or zerg gets to broodlord infestors. Honestly, every nerf/buff just makes the game to develope quicker or make the metagame more stable, it doesn't kill pro to innovate a build. Did slayers hellion opening died down? nope, it still became standard and just didn't end the game with a mass runby as often Did Mvp mech die down? well if mech was played more often...we would know. Did muta style got phrased out? nope, because buff was on both phoenix and muta. | ||
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Shinta)
United States1716 Posts
On October 01 2013 11:13 hansonslee wrote: I don't think you understand what I am trying to say. I said SC2 is a completely different game from Brood War, and there is nowhere in my post that contradicts that point. iloveoov's statements just aren't as relevant to the current Starcraft 2 scene. And btw, by mentioning MVP and Nestea, I don't think you clearly don't understand my background at all because I have followed the scene from the very beginning, and I personally love the hype that these two players got for the next bonjowas of SC2. Also, I am a big fan of Squirtle and Seed, who were once considered to be innovators of my favorite race. But they are back in Code B. So, there you go. My point is still proven. I am not taking sides of what game is better. I am stating what the current situation is, and why iloveoov's comments don't apply as much atm. Next time, be more careful with what you interpret and get off your high horse. I don't think that you understand what I'm trying to say.... Because I know exactly what you're trying to say, and I'm trying to say that it's wrong, and your very words describe why it's wrong. SC2 is a lot more like BW than you think, but Blizzard isn't letting it develop the way BW did. The reasons why Blizzard are acting differently aren't being discussed, the fact that SC2 and BW are not so completely different like you think they are is what Oov and myself are trying to tell you. Your point isn't proven, it's simply invalid due to the topic. Bonjwa's don't exist in SC2 because Blizzard won't allow them to exist. They won't change SC2 to make it more sustainable, and they continuously change SC2 in a way that disrupts the development of the professional scene (this is not the same thing as throwing money into the pro scene, nor does it have anything to do with hosting tournaments. this statement is talking about how professional players are able to develop the game). Players who are big innovators can't sustain because they have to innovate too often, because the game isn't sustainable. Seed can't come up with a style and then run with it. He can have a burst of success and then fall down to hell, because he isn't given enough reward for his efforts. | ||
Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
Basically, I think his idea is good but at this point fans and pro players alike are screaming for buffs or nerfs every few seconds. It's hard for Blizzard to sit by and let things work themselves out. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
Glad someone with a name finally said what so many people have thought. I'm not saying that patches are bad, but just let the stupid thing grow, let smart people try to figure out the game for a while. You can't have triumph without adversity. I remember there were a lot of good moments in WoL like seeing Thorzain's Thor based TvP finally making mech happen in TvP. I'm sure if Blizzard had not immediately nerf batted the strategy into the ground, we'd remember Thorzain as the one who FINALLY made mech work in TvP. Instead people remember it as an abusive strategy because Blizzard validated that point of view with the Thor patch next week and the story that could have been never was. | ||
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[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
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hellokitty[hk]
United States1309 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On October 01 2013 10:07 Shinta) wrote: To everyone supporting Oov, Blizzard is doing a worse job in maintaining and developing SC2. They are lowering the skill cap, and patching people's play styles to make sure players can't develop as play style based players. (No reason to make fun of your comments on Flash because it was exactly the same in BW.... your statement just didn't provide anything to the argument) SC2 no longer rewards innovation because the meta will eventually reset itself (when David Kim patches and forces those players to develop new styles after spending so many hours creating their old ones) until a new player arrives with a new breakout strategy (which will later be patched again). If it doesn't get patched though, then other players will show their professionalism by practicing a whole ton and rise to the top with their own innovative play like a good eSports/SC player should do, which will later be countered again by other players who are also doing their job by playing SC at an extremely high level with professional mindsets. Pretty much what I think. It's really hard to develop your own style if people overpatch the game. It's funny how much truth there is to "Innovations's been nerfed" jokes, even if we might be better off with a patch like this (and I'm not sure about that to be honest). Blizzard should probably encourage new play styles for the most part while not completely destroying the current ones. Doing things that makes certain builds less of a gamble - but not overpowered - is a nice. That encourages developing your own style and identity as a player. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On October 01 2013 08:47 Shinta) wrote: That's a cool statement, but how can you even try to argue that when SC2 has not even been given the chance? What Blizzard is trying to do is constantly make the game easier for randoms to play, they aren't necessarily trying to elevate the level of play that we see in SC2. We are RTS gamers, we play this game that is harder to play and requires more talent (arguable) than other games. This is a niche game that "randoms" won't play as much as they will FPS and MOBA games. This is something that everyone should pretty much know. Thus, Blizzard, as well as the strong SC2/RTS community, need to realize that we need to promote SC2 more as an eSport than as a casual game. Allow professionals to develop the game. Provide support to the professional scene rather than taking control of it. LET SC2 BECOME AN ESPORT RATHER THAN STOPPING IT'S ADVANCEMENT. We are not LoL, Blizzard can't be Bronze friendly and Grandmasters friendly at the same time. SC:BW pros made themselves, as well as the game, professional. They developed their skills as well as the metas that the world would learn to respect and love. Blizzard is taking that away and wondering why the professional scene is dying at the same time. As an example, imagine if the NBA said "hmm, this NBA season there are too many 3 point shooters. how about we balance the game to make 3 points count for 2.5 instead". or "let's push the 3 point line a half a foot back". They'll only start to ruin the game. There's a huge difference between SC2 and basketball, but the professional scene needs to be respected all the same. It's been three years. That's a lot of room for chances man for something to catch on and it did, but for some reason a lot of folks are attached to the idea of having everything bigger when in reality we know exactly what we were dealing with all along. Is the Gorilla's comments with regards to the Korean support acceptable? To a certain extent yes, but everything changes. You don't necessarily need to make the game easier for casuals to play. You could however give them more options and build around different communities. That's what's been neglected and yes we are a niche market which some people seem to forget. As for Payam, I wouldn't question those player's work ethic even back then because a lot of them were just trying to survive. | ||
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Nerevar
547 Posts
When Blizzard doesn't patch, arguably more people complain. It's quite a Catch-22 that they're in, and I think a lot of it has to do with how different the community today is and its expectations compared to the old BW days. We're struggling to keep the game relevant in the face of rising competition from LoL and DotA2, and even Korea itself is no longer a guaranteed bastion of long-term support for Starcraft as a huge eSport. | ||
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hansonslee
United States2027 Posts
On October 01 2013 12:20 Shinta) wrote: I don't think that you understand what I'm trying to say.... Because I know exactly what you're trying to say, and I'm trying to say that it's wrong, and your very words describe why it's wrong. SC2 is a lot more like BW than you think, but Blizzard isn't letting it develop the way BW did. The reasons why Blizzard are acting differently aren't being discussed, the fact that SC2 and BW are not so completely different like you think they are is what Oov and myself are trying to tell you. Your point isn't proven, it's simply invalid due to the topic. Bonjwa's don't exist in SC2 because Blizzard won't allow them to exist. They won't change SC2 to make it more sustainable, and they continuously change SC2 in a way that disrupts the development of the professional scene (this is not the same thing as throwing money into the pro scene, nor does it have anything to do with hosting tournaments. this statement is talking about how professional players are able to develop the game). Players who are big innovators can't sustain because they have to innovate too often, because the game isn't sustainable. Seed can't come up with a style and then run with it. He can have a burst of success and then fall down to hell, because he isn't given enough reward for his efforts. You know, it's really funny that you are trying to say that you understand what I am saying, but you really don't because what you say is actually in congruence with what I said. Iloveoov stated how BW rewarded innovation like with Bisu's situation, but you just stated how SC2 doesn't reward innovation. Guess what? You just have just proven my point that SC2 is very different in terms of design and scene. If BW was similar to SC2, then why are the BW players going back to BW? Why do we see players like Flash and Jaedong struggle to regain their former glory? Even Flash complained how HOTS Protoss is very similar to BW Terran because the current Protoss requires much more positioning, compared to other races. Also, have you read the pathfinding article on Team Liquid? A different pathfinding scheme evidently makes a HUGE impact on the game's design, and we all know how different SC2 is from BW in those terms. I can go on with why it is hard for me to take your post and replies seriously, but I'm sorry, man. I am fine with people criticizing me, because I know that I am not always right (even there are people who downright proved me wrong before, but you're not one of them). There's just no point in having a meaningful discussion with you. I'll give you the free win, if that makes you feel better.  And to make you feel happier, I actually want to see more innovative plays just as much as you do. It's sad that you let a simple disagreement get the best out of you. Have a good day! | ||
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Glenn313
United States475 Posts
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shenlong
219 Posts
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riyanme
Philippines940 Posts
the issue here is the neverending patches... surely he doesnt mind a patch but doing so often is a total wreck... basically blizzard dont know how to fix this... in short sc2 is a "brand new" dilapidated game.... patches... patches and more patches.... definetly there is no bonjwa in sc2... you cant have a bonjwa on an ever changing patches.... | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
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playnice
Malaysia299 Posts
On October 01 2013 12:36 [SXG]Phantom wrote: come on guys, Blizzard isnt patching that often (in hots) and also.. do yuo really want them to "let the imbalance fix itself". Do i have to remind you of the BL-infestor era, wich was basically more than half a year of the same army cpomposition on every matchup ignoring completely the map or the race the zerg were playing againts? That was the worst era of WoL, gameplay wise or even in viewership. Maybe it worked in BW, but sc2 is a different game. I still remember BL infestor being disgustingly good against almost everything, and Terrans would find it really hard to win. Symbol was the standard bearer of this strategy, and he was already really good at late game Zerg before the meta shift into his preferred style. That was what made his defeats in the hands of Mvp so memorable for me. Mvp answered this strategy with Mech and 3-1 Symbol in GSL 2012 Season 4 Ro8. It was such a good series, and at the time I thought it was going to be the bane of Infestor BL. The problem was no one at the time can play Mech as well as Mvp. And after that GSL, Mvp dropped out of Code S, as he usually does, and the strategy didn't get enough exposure for others to develop and discover how good it would have become. | ||
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