EPTiloveoov's interview after returning to SKT - Page 6
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Polygamy
Austria1114 Posts
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KoinZell
Estonia16 Posts
From one point I agree that by having more frequent patches, etc, will keep the scene more fresh, and the interest up. And if something is actually OP than it will most likely get patched. I also agree that by having time to let the starcraft 2 scene mature, will actually balance every matchup really well as well, because people will actually start THINKING about what they can do. And if something actually isn't OP, than there's time for people to come up with a counter. As an example, I'd like to lean on having far slower patches considering the fact that all the zergs are crying about ''Widowmines this!'' and ''Widowmine that!''.. Even though widowmines aren't actually anything op and can be countered with the smallest amounts of Micro tricks (+ Terran has had to live for a long time by dying outright because of 1 baneling connections out of 40 banelings, while 1 widowmine hit rarely puts a dent in a zerg army.). I've seen a TON of zerg players who can easily beat bio-mine, even when executed brilliantly (I'm thinking of Scarlett vs Alive, where Alive showed brilliant Multitasking, without actually messing up much, but Scarlett just chewed him out.).. I got a bit off track, but I think that the future ''potential balance patch'', that was recently posted, was more of ''To keep sc2 fresh''' kind of update not to ''Fix an important balance problem''. It'll completely change TvZ. And I honestly think that it will actually be more beneficial to the Terran because Ultra switches, etc, will be less powerful if the Terran already has a strong tank army out (+ The buffs on them will make them even more ridiculous.),, But I honestly think that kind of updates NEED to come out far less frequently. How can anyone have time to think up builds if they throw out balance patches once per month? So yeah. There needs to be a careful balance between letting people play around without having to fear for a new patch, and also patching when necessary. David Kim needs to think things through. | ||
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TT1
Canada9984 Posts
On October 01 2013 08:08 StarStruck wrote: In the era of replays? Come on now (that's with regards to Mr. Perfect Terran). It's not like no one was aware of what Bisu did to Savior either man (I mean didn't we have someone bring that up recently in the BW forums? yeah we did). <<Insert obligatory "omgosh such a Terran favored map" here *eye roll*>> and I call bullshit on not having the same drive or dedication. It's like you guys forget about players like fOru and Zeus, etc. im talking about the pre-revolution era where protoss players had no idea what they were doing whereas the z/t metagame was much more advanced. someone like xellos flourished due to the amount of practice he put into the game, he didnt need to worry about figuring out which style was the most optimal in a certain mu, etc. the fact that there were replays is irrelevant because protoss players were held back due to the metagame not being figured out.. which is why i said there might have been a player who had the same dedication/drive that xellos had but never managed to reach his potential due to the way the game was played | ||
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Shinta)
United States1716 Posts
On October 01 2013 05:40 disciple wrote: He is right about a lot of things but at the same time he dismisses the fact sc2 doesn't have 8 years of time for build innovations and map making. Blizzard went global with SC2 and foreigners just lose/move their interest whenever they see game commercials on the TV. There's just no time for SC2 to become scbw naturally. That's a cool statement, but how can you even try to argue that when SC2 has not even been given the chance? What Blizzard is trying to do is constantly make the game easier for randoms to play, they aren't necessarily trying to elevate the level of play that we see in SC2. We are RTS gamers, we play this game that is harder to play and requires more talent (arguable) than other games. This is a niche game that "randoms" won't play as much as they will FPS and MOBA games. This is something that everyone should pretty much know. Thus, Blizzard, as well as the strong SC2/RTS community, need to realize that we need to promote SC2 more as an eSport than as a casual game. Allow professionals to develop the game. Provide support to the professional scene rather than taking control of it. LET SC2 BECOME AN ESPORT RATHER THAN STOPPING IT'S ADVANCEMENT. We are not LoL, Blizzard can't be Bronze friendly and Grandmasters friendly at the same time. SC:BW pros made themselves, as well as the game, professional. They developed their skills as well as the metas that the world would learn to respect and love. Blizzard is taking that away and wondering why the professional scene is dying at the same time. As an example, imagine if the NBA said "hmm, this NBA season there are too many 3 point shooters. how about we balance the game to make 3 points count for 2.5 instead". or "let's push the 3 point line a half a foot back". They'll only start to ruin the game. There's a huge difference between SC2 and basketball, but the professional scene needs to be respected all the same. | ||
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Caladan
Germany1238 Posts
I agree with it though. SC2's game design and balance flaws begin to show every day a little more. | ||
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JP Dayne
538 Posts
On October 01 2013 05:40 disciple wrote: He is right about a lot of things but at the same time he dismisses the fact sc2 doesn't have 8 years of time for build innovations and map making. Blizzard went global with SC2 and foreigners just lose/move their interest whenever they see game commercials on the TV. There's just no time for SC2 to become scbw naturally. exactly, kim doesn't give time for the game to develop itself. he waits what, a couple of months? it's so easy to cater noobs and progamers alike, buffing a race based on what he does if I were a progamer, the hell I'd try and be innovative. I'd stick to grinding the flavor of the week cookie cutter build and wait eagerly for a buff on my race. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 01 2013 08:57 JP Dayne wrote: exactly, kim doesn't give time for the game to develop itself. he waits what, a couple of months? it's so easy to cater noobs and progamers alike, buffing a race based on what he does if I were a progamer, the hell I'd try and be innovative. I'd stick to grinding the flavor of the week cookie cutter build and wait eagerly for a buff on my race. In fairness, product managers are given at most a few months before higher ups starts breathing down your neck asking why you haven't innovated the entire industry yet. | ||
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Tobblish
Sweden6404 Posts
SC2 is such a different game compared to SC1 BW. BW have over a decade to even and straighten everything up while SC2 have yet to even release it's last expansion. It's a really hard nut to crack. Should you only fix game breaking strats like the 5rax reaper but how long should you wait for people to find that one strat to hold it off? The Infestor was a hot topic a year ago, fans screaming for it to be nerfed, stopping to play the game, switching races etc etc. Did Blizzard act too late? Theres no easy fix to this, only time will tell. | ||
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Kal_rA
United States2925 Posts
If the game doesn't patch, people complain, blizzard loses.. If they do we get this. Lose lose. | ||
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hansonslee
United States2027 Posts
Now, SC2 is different. Due to the simpler design of the game such as better pathing and easier ways of building and controlling bigger armies, the skill cap is much low, so a bigger amount of people can reach up to that top level. Furthermore, best mechanics don't cut it anymore because no play is "perfect". For example, with Flash's insane macro, people realized that you either had to punish Flash hard early or completely outmaneuver him because he is much more of a positional player than a mobile one. In other words, in SC2, you can't rely on a specific style as you can do in Brood War because that style can be countered. You want innovative play as Bisu delivered in BW? Has anyone here watched Squirtle? Seed? MVP? Nestea (at his prime)? Life? Those guys were extremely brainy players who brought up new ideas for the meta, but now, those guys are no longer on the top anymore. SC2 no longer rewards innovation during the long run because the meta will eventually reset itself until a new player arrives with a new strategy, which will later be countered again. And if it doesn't get countered, then those strategies can abused to the point when game gets stale and frustrating for everyone. And if you look at the current eSports markets such as MOBA, we see that diversity is a very attractive trait within games lately. Though a well-developed game, Brood War is no longer as relevant as it used to be because innovation takes a very long time, which will the current global population has little patience for. Finally, if you haven't followed the SC2 scene from the VERY beginning, Blizzard is actually MUCH more tame and allows the metagame to develop, compared to last time. The balance has been much more slow and methodical lately. I would say what their past patches were, but I know that it bring back some repressed nightmares  | ||
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AKIRADEATH
Canada27 Posts
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NicksonReyes
Philippines4431 Posts
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Shinta)
United States1716 Posts
On October 01 2013 09:44 AKIRADEATH wrote: I will admit my knowledge of this comes from a video of an interview with Artosis, so if someone who knows the history more can tell me I'm wrong, I probably am, but: aren't people forgetting that BW eventually came to be balanced by map designers? It doesn't completely refute what oov is saying, but it's worth considering that BW was indeed balanced by outside forces. The maps weren't necessarily balanced though....... The meta's were changed by the maps more so than the restoration of balance of the game. | ||
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Lokian
United States699 Posts
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Shinta)
United States1716 Posts
On October 01 2013 09:42 hansonslee wrote: Again, to the people siding with iloveoov, Brood War is a completely different game with a completely different scene, compared to SC2. First of all, Brood War skill cap was MUCH higher, which is why we have people like Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu. Only few can reach up to that goal. Next, the game was centralized around the Korean scene and was the only dominant game in the eSports industry, so there is not as much pressure to change the meta. Now, SC2 is different. Due to the simpler design of the game such as better pathing and easier ways of building and controlling bigger armies, the skill cap is much low, so a bigger amount of people can reach up to that top level. Furthermore, best mechanics don't cut it anymore because no play is "perfect". For example, with Flash's insane macro, people realized that you either had to punish Flash hard early or completely outmaneuver him because he is much more of a positional player than a mobile one. In other words, in SC2, you can't rely on a specific style as you can do in Brood War because that style can be countered. You want innovative play as Bisu delivered in BW? Has anyone here watched Squirtle? Seed? MVP? Nestea (at his prime)? Life? Those guys were extremely brainy players who brought up new ideas for the meta, but now, those guys are no longer on the top anymore. SC2 no longer rewards innovation during the long run because the meta will eventually reset itself until a new player arrives with a new strategy, which will later be countered again. And if it doesn't get countered, then those strategies can abused to the point when game gets stale and frustrating for everyone. And if you look at the current eSports markets such as MOBA, we see that diversity is a very attractive trait within games lately. Though a well-developed game, Brood War is no longer as relevant as it used to be because innovation takes a very long time, which will the current global population has little patience for. Finally, if you haven't followed the SC2 scene from the VERY beginning, Blizzard is actually MUCH more tame and allows the metagame to develop, compared to last time. The balance has been much more slow and methodical lately. I would say what their past patches were, but I know that it bring back some repressed nightmares I love how you DESTROY your own argument with your entire argument. To everyone supporting Oov, Blizzard is doing a worse job in maintaining and developing SC2. They are lowering the skill cap, and patching people's play styles to make sure players can't develop as play style based players. (No reason to make fun of your comments on Flash because it was exactly the same in BW.... your statement just didn't provide anything to the argument) SC2 no longer rewards innovation because the meta will eventually reset itself (when David Kim patches and forces those players to develop new styles after spending so many hours creating their old ones) until a new player arrives with a new breakout strategy (which will later be patched again). If it doesn't get patched though, then other players will show their professionalism by practicing a whole ton and rise to the top with their own innovative play like a good eSports/SC player should do, which will later be countered again by other players who are also doing their job by playing SC at an extremely high level with professional mindsets. If you look at MOBAs, you'll see that the games are completely different and can't be handled the same way. If you do try to develop them the same way, you'll get what you have now, which is MOBAs developing properly and SC2 developing like shit and pro gamers losing interest due to the life of a professional gamer being treated like shit with a total lack of respect. If you haven't followed SC2 from the very beginning, you wouldn't have any clue that crazy strategies were implemented, and really fun games were played, and top players were winning consistently with innovative games and styles that were allowing everyone to realize the potential of the units in SC2. | ||
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Shinta)
United States1716 Posts
On October 01 2013 10:05 Lokian wrote: to be fair... bw changed a lot because nobody really knew how to play back in the days. I mean, boxer invented walling with depos? That's a given in SC2. A lot of pre-existing knowledge, faster matchmaking, more players, and better practice functions allows SC2 to mature faster than ever. If we're reaching a stale meta like in WoL, a patch is necessary... Blizz took their time with the end of WoL... and everyone knows how terribly dragged out that was. zergs were getting raped by widow mines... id like to see a solution to that without patches Do you know how much it took to demolish the stale meta of the end of WoL? Almost nothing....... Blizzard just wasn't paying attention at the time, and they had just finished cornering WoL into that shitty position because they were tired of everyone saying that zerg was ridiculously underpowered (which was all bullshit). So Blizzard does their thing, changes the game, ruins everyone's style of playing, and accidentally gears the entire game towards 1 single build. Also, WoL didn't have widow mines, so you're kind of confused with your arguing there... As for the "pre-existing knowledge", that shouldn't be used as a crutch. We shouldn't be saying that those RTS basics need to be reinvented and new processes be made. The pre-existing knowledge should allow for the game to take off faster. We've seen people be innovative with different styles of wacky and super affective, yet very situational wall-ins and things like that, and create very exciting games off of a basic maneuver that everyone knows about. All the pre-existing knowledge should allow the scene to take off as soon as it's given a decent product. Blizzard just needs to develop a decent product, then let the pro scene take off with it. That's what Oov is saying, and that's not what Blizzard is doing. | ||
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malady
United States600 Posts
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EpicDemente
Chile202 Posts
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EpicDemente
Chile202 Posts
On October 01 2013 05:47 Musicus wrote: iloveoov seems like a boss. But what is David Kim supposed to do. There are always people complaining, either about balance or about too many patches. It doesn't really matter now anyways. Until LotV is released sc2 is in fact a never ending beta test, so let's wait for 2 years after it has been released. Then the balance patches will stop and the real meta starts. Edit: Also, not responding to the Emperor? wtf so Zerg is making this game worst? :O | ||
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hansonslee
United States2027 Posts
On October 01 2013 10:07 Shinta) wrote: I love how you DESTROY your own argument with your entire argument. To everyone supporting Oov, Blizzard is doing a worse job in maintaining and developing SC2. They are lowering the skill cap, and patching people's play styles to make sure players can't develop as play style based players. (No reason to make fun of your comments on Flash because it was exactly the same in BW.... your statement just didn't provide anything to the argument) SC2 no longer rewards innovation because the meta will eventually reset itself (when David Kim patches and forces those players to develop new styles after spending so many hours creating their old ones) until a new player arrives with a new breakout strategy (which will later be patched again). If it doesn't get patched though, then other players will show their professionalism by practicing a whole ton and rise to the top with their own innovative play like a good eSports/SC player should do, which will later be countered again by other players who are also doing their job by playing SC at an extremely high level with professional mindsets. If you look at MOBAs, you'll see that the games are completely different and can't be handled the same way. If you do try to develop them the same way, you'll get what you have now, which is MOBAs developing properly and SC2 developing like shit and pro gamers losing interest due to the life of a professional gamer being treated like shit with a total lack of respect. If you haven't followed SC2 from the very beginning, you wouldn't have any clue that crazy strategies were implemented, and really fun games were played, and top players were winning consistently with innovative games and styles that were allowing everyone to realize the potential of the units in SC2. I don't think you understand what I am trying to say. I said SC2 is a completely different game from Brood War, and there is nowhere in my post that contradicts that point. iloveoov's statements just aren't as relevant to the current Starcraft 2 scene. And btw, by mentioning MVP and Nestea, I don't think you clearly don't understand my background at all because I have followed the scene from the very beginning, and I personally love the hype that these two players got for the next bonjowas of SC2. Also, I am a big fan of Squirtle and Seed, who were once considered to be innovators of my favorite race. But they are back in Code B. So, there you go. My point is still proven. I am not taking sides of what game is better. I am stating what the current situation is, and why iloveoov's comments don't apply as much atm. Next time, be more careful with what you interpret and get off your high horse. | ||
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