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On October 01 2013 07:51 DinoToss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 07:07 rd wrote:On October 01 2013 06:55 DinoToss wrote:On October 01 2013 06:45 rd wrote:
I can't take this Oov interview too seriously. He's very vague when he refers very to David Kim over-balancing the game. He doesn't mention any specific patches, he just makes the blanket statement of an observation that David Kim balances too much, which the interviewer unfortunately did not press at all.
Blizzard said they'd stop shaking up the metagame . If you compare the balanace patches in the first six weeks of WoL vs the first six weeks of HotS, it's night and day. They actually let broodlord infestor dominate the metagame for so damn long rather than nerf it into the ground to allow SOME player to take a crack at solving it.
It's really sad how eager everyone is to hop on the david kim/blizzard shitstorm train with any slight provocation or reason. Are you SERIOUS? They buffed queens, the buffed infestors. And then you use argument "and they stopped, be happy". And then you put the blame on people, to figure out how to beat buffed queens and buffed infestors which in fact were the reason why the mass infestor style and multiple queen style which with conjuction enabled the BL-Inf style to emerge. Because of how good queen buff happened to be. So after Blizz put all this mess (QUEEN BUFF) you say it was their good heart that made people figure out how to deal with that mess themselves. Good thinking. You're literally disagree'ing with Oov right now. They said they'd stop patching so much, and they did what they said. I mean, you're reading into an interview calling for Blizzard to stop patching so much, yet they wouldn't nerf (or unbuff) a unit (queen) which clearly shouldn't have buffed in the first place in hindsight. Is that not the epitome of following the directive that Oov wants? Don't touch the metagame, even if it's broken! They never touched it! You can't have it both ways, and Blizzard took the correct stance. How can you criticize them for that? You're a monumental hypocrite. And where in the fuck did I say blame the players? Blizzard, Oov, AND myself are not blaming players. They want the players to solve the problems, not balance patches. That's not blaming the players. That's giving them the opportunity to innovate and revolutionize. And Blizzard's resolve to stop patching, even despite having just released an imbalanced patch, were stringent. Because who the fuck would have known 6 months from then that no player would have solved it. You? Hindsight is 20/20 they say. Blizzard gave them the opportunity, thats what counts. Holy fucking bias. edit: I'm not sure if I should be more upset at Oov for those comments which I hope were unintentionally vague, or the community for eating them up like brainless zombies with no thought into their validity. Sorry, i didn't preface my post saying im not making binary statements. Me saying that "Oov is right", and me saying that youi shouldn't compare bl inf bullshit to the formula of "player devising counter's, not david kim" can be right. If i preface my points saying that the reasons why bl inf domination happened were all nonsesical. You cannot accept players to fight problems that happen from nonsensical reasons. This is not what Oov postulated. Because look what happens, players leave the game, because they know that expansion is coming, so they know that "FIX" is coming regardless of anything. Players should solve problems, not balance patches. But what terrans solved when queen balance patch happened(for balance patch to happen there needs to be something imbalanced first), which created a problem. So maybe blizzard is here to create a problem for players, that would work but doing so they are in fact also destroying the scheme. Blizzard is here to give tools and players to devise strategies nad counter strategies, i think we all lost that long ago, because every strategy runs its course gets into dangerous peak and gets nerfed and/or end with the end of game (WoL).
You can't just sit there and blast Blizzard for not reverting the queen patch without having the foresight to know it couldn't be solved in 6 months after vowing to let the metagame play out more. It'd be counter-intuitive to the entire concept of allowing players the opportunity to solve the game. To disagree makes you a hypocrite. I highly doubt you had that foresight then, or do now. And the general lack of foresight in how the metagame can change is EXACTLY WHY Blizzard shouldn't be patching things so quickly, not even Broodlord Infestor. No one will give Blizzard credit, everyone are such hypocrites.
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On October 01 2013 12:36 [SXG]Phantom wrote:
come on guys, Blizzard isnt patching that often (in hots) and also.. do yuo really want them to "let the imbalance fix itself". Do i have to remind you of the BL-infestor era, wich was basically more than half a year of the same army cpomposition on every matchup ignoring completely the map or the race the zerg were playing againts? That was the worst era of WoL, gameplay wise or even in viewership. Maybe it worked in BW, but sc2 is a different game.
The funny part is this strat became so strong and so viable due to over-patching.
But ya agree that basically the second anyone does something different that appears at first glance like a good build or a strong build......it just gets nerfed into the dirt and into extinction. Because of this, the game is barely even a "strategy" game anymore but more just muscle memory training and coin-flips.
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On October 01 2013 13:32 JIJI_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 12:36 [SXG]Phantom wrote:
come on guys, Blizzard isnt patching that often (in hots) and also.. do yuo really want them to "let the imbalance fix itself". Do i have to remind you of the BL-infestor era, wich was basically more than half a year of the same army cpomposition on every matchup ignoring completely the map or the race the zerg were playing againts? That was the worst era of WoL, gameplay wise or even in viewership. Maybe it worked in BW, but sc2 is a different game. The funny part is this strat became so strong and so viable due to over-patching. But ya agree that basically the second anyone does something different that appears at first glance like a good build or a strong build......it just gets nerfed into the dirt and into extinction. Because of this, the game is barely even a "strategy" game anymore but more just muscle memory training and coin-flips.
Well they publicly announced immediately after that patch that they were going to stop knee-jerking strats and letting the metagame sufficient time to flesh out. It's unfortunate they chose to start that policy after what was in hindsight a ridiculous patch, but they have to be given credit for it. If we want less patches, we can't have a 1 month clock for a player to solve a strategy before Blizzard nerfs it into the ground. Not even BL infestor.
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On October 01 2013 12:47 Nerevar wrote:
When Blizzard patches, people complain.
When Blizzard doesn't patch, arguably more people complain.
It's quite a Catch-22 that they're in, and I think a lot of it has to do with how different the community today is and its expectations compared to the old BW days. We're struggling to keep the game relevant in the face of rising competition from LoL and DotA2, and even Korea itself is no longer a guaranteed bastion of long-term support for Starcraft as a huge eSport.
That is because usually the community will break down the "issues" with regards to the meta and talk about buffing/nerfing A, B and C. Blizzard then releases their upcoming patch notes on buffing/nerfing X, Y and Z..
Like in the recent patch notes. Speeding up DTs? what? since when were DTs a problem? the way they are making Oracles viable mid/late game by making them cheaper.. what? Completely nerfing the WM instead of mildly reducing its splash radii..
Their balance changes are sometimes so far out there, galaxies apart from the communities "needs" and their analysis that people have always been upset. Just like how the warhound which started off as a mini thor i.e. more accessible AA somehow became a mech marauder.
SC2 as a game has the potential to be better yet every balance change for me at the least is not leading the game in the right direction and instead snipping away at this potential. Why dont they look at the viper and its role against the MMMM? Why dont they do something about 50% of the units that suddenly become viable if tank usage becomes the norm? why dont they look into toning down the hardcounters? Some of these things won't need huge changes to the core fundamentals to the game e.g. economoy/macro mechanics etc. Yet they wanted to increase the DT speed.. why?? I would really like to play the game that their playing where DTs out of all the units are having trouble.
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Why is this community so full of armchair game designers? If you think you are better at balancing the game maybe give some credentials for the perfectly balanced strategy game you have created. Oov might have a point, but he isn't the one making the decisions. HoTS has taken a mostly hands off approach to game balance. What has actually changed since release? Hellbats and overseer speed. It's like saying blizzard should have never fixed lurkers to fix unburrow when attacked.
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David Kim can sit and watch. THat's the easiest thing to do. But then Blizzard will see no value in him and fire him. He have a job to do, and unless they are working on Starcraft 3, I don't think the patches cycle will ever change.
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Oov has some good points, but I think he's just as biased as anyone and it really shows through in what he says.
Yea, progamers should endure, they should try their hardest to deal with the meta-game. They should innovate, look for new strategies and tactics that counter existing ones and push forward the game. But, at the end of the day, they have their motivations as does Oov and David Kim and it's hard to say anyone is right. Just look at Bisu's recent interview where he talks about how hard it is to see the fans disappear, how difficult it becomes to just focus on your practice when you have to question what the purpose is. And, how do you bring those fans back? Make the game harder? Get rid of MBS, auto-mining, and bring back BW unit pathing? As LoL proved, the technical difficulty of the game is not related to the popularity of the game in such a direct way. Are constant patches and changes a bad thing? Does it not happen in other incredibly popular games?
If someone knew how to turn a video-game into a national sport, they would be getting paid an unbelievable amount of money to do so. Nobody knows and I'd say that's because there is no tangible answer.
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On October 01 2013 13:27 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 07:51 DinoToss wrote:On October 01 2013 07:07 rd wrote:On October 01 2013 06:55 DinoToss wrote:On October 01 2013 06:45 rd wrote:
I can't take this Oov interview too seriously. He's very vague when he refers very to David Kim over-balancing the game. He doesn't mention any specific patches, he just makes the blanket statement of an observation that David Kim balances too much, which the interviewer unfortunately did not press at all.
Blizzard said they'd stop shaking up the metagame . If you compare the balanace patches in the first six weeks of WoL vs the first six weeks of HotS, it's night and day. They actually let broodlord infestor dominate the metagame for so damn long rather than nerf it into the ground to allow SOME player to take a crack at solving it.
It's really sad how eager everyone is to hop on the david kim/blizzard shitstorm train with any slight provocation or reason. Are you SERIOUS? They buffed queens, the buffed infestors. And then you use argument "and they stopped, be happy". And then you put the blame on people, to figure out how to beat buffed queens and buffed infestors which in fact were the reason why the mass infestor style and multiple queen style which with conjuction enabled the BL-Inf style to emerge. Because of how good queen buff happened to be. So after Blizz put all this mess (QUEEN BUFF) you say it was their good heart that made people figure out how to deal with that mess themselves. Good thinking. You're literally disagree'ing with Oov right now. They said they'd stop patching so much, and they did what they said. I mean, you're reading into an interview calling for Blizzard to stop patching so much, yet they wouldn't nerf (or unbuff) a unit (queen) which clearly shouldn't have buffed in the first place in hindsight. Is that not the epitome of following the directive that Oov wants? Don't touch the metagame, even if it's broken! They never touched it! You can't have it both ways, and Blizzard took the correct stance. How can you criticize them for that? You're a monumental hypocrite. And where in the fuck did I say blame the players? Blizzard, Oov, AND myself are not blaming players. They want the players to solve the problems, not balance patches. That's not blaming the players. That's giving them the opportunity to innovate and revolutionize. And Blizzard's resolve to stop patching, even despite having just released an imbalanced patch, were stringent. Because who the fuck would have known 6 months from then that no player would have solved it. You? Hindsight is 20/20 they say. Blizzard gave them the opportunity, thats what counts. Holy fucking bias. edit: I'm not sure if I should be more upset at Oov for those comments which I hope were unintentionally vague, or the community for eating them up like brainless zombies with no thought into their validity. Sorry, i didn't preface my post saying im not making binary statements. Me saying that "Oov is right", and me saying that youi shouldn't compare bl inf bullshit to the formula of "player devising counter's, not david kim" can be right. If i preface my points saying that the reasons why bl inf domination happened were all nonsesical. You cannot accept players to fight problems that happen from nonsensical reasons. This is not what Oov postulated. Because look what happens, players leave the game, because they know that expansion is coming, so they know that "FIX" is coming regardless of anything. Players should solve problems, not balance patches. But what terrans solved when queen balance patch happened(for balance patch to happen there needs to be something imbalanced first), which created a problem. So maybe blizzard is here to create a problem for players, that would work but doing so they are in fact also destroying the scheme. Blizzard is here to give tools and players to devise strategies nad counter strategies, i think we all lost that long ago, because every strategy runs its course gets into dangerous peak and gets nerfed and/or end with the end of game (WoL). You can't just sit there and blast Blizzard for not reverting the queen patch without having the foresight to know it couldn't be solved in 6 months after vowing to let the metagame play out more. It'd be counter-intuitive to the entire concept of allowing players the opportunity to solve the game. To disagree makes you a hypocrite. I highly doubt you had that foresight then, or do now. And the general lack of foresight in how the metagame can change is EXACTLY WHY Blizzard shouldn't be patching things so quickly, not even Broodlord Infestor. No one will give Blizzard credit, everyone are such hypocrites.
both of you are essentially saying the same thing but missing a point:
The game already received patches and changes since its development.
for all we know, if the game is released in alpha build and probably the game would have worked fine without any patching too.
the biggest flaw of this interview is that it assumes no matter what the game is, as long as it gives the players the tools and no bug, you don't need patching.
Patching is based upon the idea that if the players do have the right tools to effectively solve the "problem".
And problem doesn't just come from win rates. The viewers and players enjoyment are a concern as well.
WoL pvz was a complete mess with toss all in vs zerg late game.
No matter what metagame evolution there is, the matchup is still ruined because toss does not have effective counter to late game zerg composition.
Even with 50/50 win rate, the matchup will still push people away from watching.
Thus the game should be given a direction on how to increase the enjoyment from playing and watching the game.
For example, Protoss doesn't play aggressively and only has turtling and all in style.
No patching will help that if one style is dominantly stronger than the other. One style means there is less identifiable player with different style. WoL we had players who are better at mech and better at bio for example.
then players can only differentiate themselves by unit controls (which is harder since only HTs control can a protoss really shine in a PvT) and builds (which can be copied easily)
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man he fucking nailed it talking about david kim and how he balances the game, wow.
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On October 01 2013 13:59 Brian333 wrote:
Oov has some good points, but I think he's just as biased as anyone and it really shows through in what he says.
Yea, progamers should endure, they should try their hardest to deal with the meta-game. They should innovate, look for new strategies and tactics that counter existing ones and push forward the game. But, at the end of the day, they have their motivations as does Oov and David Kim and it's hard to say anyone is right. Just look at Bisu's recent interview where he talks about how hard it is to see the fans disappear, how difficult it becomes to just focus on your practice when you have to question what the purpose is. And, how do you bring those fans back? Make the game harder? Get rid of MBS, auto-mining, and bring back BW unit pathing? As LoL proved, the technical difficulty of the game is not related to the popularity of the game in such a direct way. Are constant patches and changes a bad thing? Does it not happen in other incredibly popular games?
If someone knew how to turn a video-game into a national sport, they would be getting paid an unbelievable amount of money to do so. Nobody knows and I'd say that's because there is no tangible answer.
BW was closest to that answer til Blizzard pulled the plug. The idea at the time of pre-SC2 release was that SC2 was supposed to assume the mantle of BW because the latter had things that were lacking e.g. arcahic B.net UI, graphics etc It was a perfect opportunity to add and build upon what I saw as a strong foundation (a perfect opportunity to update the game). It was the game to carry the 10 years of starcraft and all its glory.
Yet they went ahead and destroyed the foundation where the game was basically living off the BW popularity. Same thing happened with D3. No chat channels? no PvP? Everything that made starcraft through the original game and its expansion so awesome was a shell of its former self from game play, single player, story development and even ghost.net 2.0.
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TLADT24920 Posts
First interview I read about iloveoov and I love it! lol. He's right about most things. Blizzard was too patch happy when SCII was first released and they toned it down right after making the worst patch possible with the queen patch lol. Wonder how the game would've turned out if everything was left like it was at release but the maps were bigger then some of the things they changed won't have needed it and others possibly to a lesser degree. Either way, it's too late for WoL now. Maybe they'll get it right in LoTV or maybe not lol.
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Oov showing once again how most associated with kespa are narrow minded and stuck in the past. Having an unbalanced game is NOT good. Period. How much fun would your ladder be if it was all mirrors, or you knew you would likely lose?
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On October 01 2013 13:59 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 13:27 rd wrote:On October 01 2013 07:51 DinoToss wrote:On October 01 2013 07:07 rd wrote:On October 01 2013 06:55 DinoToss wrote:On October 01 2013 06:45 rd wrote:
I can't take this Oov interview too seriously. He's very vague when he refers very to David Kim over-balancing the game. He doesn't mention any specific patches, he just makes the blanket statement of an observation that David Kim balances too much, which the interviewer unfortunately did not press at all.
Blizzard said they'd stop shaking up the metagame . If you compare the balanace patches in the first six weeks of WoL vs the first six weeks of HotS, it's night and day. They actually let broodlord infestor dominate the metagame for so damn long rather than nerf it into the ground to allow SOME player to take a crack at solving it.
It's really sad how eager everyone is to hop on the david kim/blizzard shitstorm train with any slight provocation or reason. Are you SERIOUS? They buffed queens, the buffed infestors. And then you use argument "and they stopped, be happy". And then you put the blame on people, to figure out how to beat buffed queens and buffed infestors which in fact were the reason why the mass infestor style and multiple queen style which with conjuction enabled the BL-Inf style to emerge. Because of how good queen buff happened to be. So after Blizz put all this mess (QUEEN BUFF) you say it was their good heart that made people figure out how to deal with that mess themselves. Good thinking. You're literally disagree'ing with Oov right now. They said they'd stop patching so much, and they did what they said. I mean, you're reading into an interview calling for Blizzard to stop patching so much, yet they wouldn't nerf (or unbuff) a unit (queen) which clearly shouldn't have buffed in the first place in hindsight. Is that not the epitome of following the directive that Oov wants? Don't touch the metagame, even if it's broken! They never touched it! You can't have it both ways, and Blizzard took the correct stance. How can you criticize them for that? You're a monumental hypocrite. And where in the fuck did I say blame the players? Blizzard, Oov, AND myself are not blaming players. They want the players to solve the problems, not balance patches. That's not blaming the players. That's giving them the opportunity to innovate and revolutionize. And Blizzard's resolve to stop patching, even despite having just released an imbalanced patch, were stringent. Because who the fuck would have known 6 months from then that no player would have solved it. You? Hindsight is 20/20 they say. Blizzard gave them the opportunity, thats what counts. Holy fucking bias. edit: I'm not sure if I should be more upset at Oov for those comments which I hope were unintentionally vague, or the community for eating them up like brainless zombies with no thought into their validity. Sorry, i didn't preface my post saying im not making binary statements. Me saying that "Oov is right", and me saying that youi shouldn't compare bl inf bullshit to the formula of "player devising counter's, not david kim" can be right. If i preface my points saying that the reasons why bl inf domination happened were all nonsesical. You cannot accept players to fight problems that happen from nonsensical reasons. This is not what Oov postulated. Because look what happens, players leave the game, because they know that expansion is coming, so they know that "FIX" is coming regardless of anything. Players should solve problems, not balance patches. But what terrans solved when queen balance patch happened(for balance patch to happen there needs to be something imbalanced first), which created a problem. So maybe blizzard is here to create a problem for players, that would work but doing so they are in fact also destroying the scheme. Blizzard is here to give tools and players to devise strategies nad counter strategies, i think we all lost that long ago, because every strategy runs its course gets into dangerous peak and gets nerfed and/or end with the end of game (WoL). You can't just sit there and blast Blizzard for not reverting the queen patch without having the foresight to know it couldn't be solved in 6 months after vowing to let the metagame play out more. It'd be counter-intuitive to the entire concept of allowing players the opportunity to solve the game. To disagree makes you a hypocrite. I highly doubt you had that foresight then, or do now. And the general lack of foresight in how the metagame can change is EXACTLY WHY Blizzard shouldn't be patching things so quickly, not even Broodlord Infestor. No one will give Blizzard credit, everyone are such hypocrites. both of you are essentially saying the same thing but missing a point: The game already received patches and changes since its development. for all we know, if the game is released in alpha build and probably the game would have worked fine without any patching too. the biggest flaw of this interview is that it assumes no matter what the game is, as long as it gives the players the tools and no bug, you don't need patching. Patching is based upon the idea that if the players do have the right tools to effectively solve the "problem". And problem doesn't just come from win rates. The viewers and players enjoyment are a concern as well. WoL pvz was a complete mess with toss all in vs zerg late game. No matter what metagame evolution there is, the matchup is still ruined because toss does not have effective counter to late game zerg composition. Even with 50/50 win rate, the matchup will still push people away from watching. Thus the game should be given a direction on how to increase the enjoyment from playing and watching the game.
We agree that the game shouldn't be patched no matter what, EXCEPT when it comes to the queen patch. The irony is that even when they stuck to their guns and didn't patch it, he still won't acknowledge that Blizzard actually did stick to their word and stopped patching everything like they did throughout WoL before queen patch. That's the entire damn point. If you aren't going to knee-jerk patch without perfect foresight (which few to no people have, generally safe to assume no one), you can't make an exception to the rule. Not even one in which they fix something they literally broke themselves. Because it took 6 months to truly realize they did break it.
Whether or not the game is enjoyable is a different argument though. This is purely about the frequency with which blizzard patches, and how consistently they stuck to their announcement. My initial argument is that Oov is disingenuously vague about how he refers to blizzard's balance patch history. Because either he's just blatantly wrong in what he says, or he's actually referring to absolutely no patches at all which we can both agree is pretty insane.
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On October 01 2013 13:59 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 13:27 rd wrote:On October 01 2013 07:51 DinoToss wrote:On October 01 2013 07:07 rd wrote:On October 01 2013 06:55 DinoToss wrote:On October 01 2013 06:45 rd wrote:
I can't take this Oov interview too seriously. He's very vague when he refers very to David Kim over-balancing the game. He doesn't mention any specific patches, he just makes the blanket statement of an observation that David Kim balances too much, which the interviewer unfortunately did not press at all.
Blizzard said they'd stop shaking up the metagame . If you compare the balanace patches in the first six weeks of WoL vs the first six weeks of HotS, it's night and day. They actually let broodlord infestor dominate the metagame for so damn long rather than nerf it into the ground to allow SOME player to take a crack at solving it.
It's really sad how eager everyone is to hop on the david kim/blizzard shitstorm train with any slight provocation or reason. Are you SERIOUS? They buffed queens, the buffed infestors. And then you use argument "and they stopped, be happy". And then you put the blame on people, to figure out how to beat buffed queens and buffed infestors which in fact were the reason why the mass infestor style and multiple queen style which with conjuction enabled the BL-Inf style to emerge. Because of how good queen buff happened to be. So after Blizz put all this mess (QUEEN BUFF) you say it was their good heart that made people figure out how to deal with that mess themselves. Good thinking. You're literally disagree'ing with Oov right now. They said they'd stop patching so much, and they did what they said. I mean, you're reading into an interview calling for Blizzard to stop patching so much, yet they wouldn't nerf (or unbuff) a unit (queen) which clearly shouldn't have buffed in the first place in hindsight. Is that not the epitome of following the directive that Oov wants? Don't touch the metagame, even if it's broken! They never touched it! You can't have it both ways, and Blizzard took the correct stance. How can you criticize them for that? You're a monumental hypocrite. And where in the fuck did I say blame the players? Blizzard, Oov, AND myself are not blaming players. They want the players to solve the problems, not balance patches. That's not blaming the players. That's giving them the opportunity to innovate and revolutionize. And Blizzard's resolve to stop patching, even despite having just released an imbalanced patch, were stringent. Because who the fuck would have known 6 months from then that no player would have solved it. You? Hindsight is 20/20 they say. Blizzard gave them the opportunity, thats what counts. Holy fucking bias. edit: I'm not sure if I should be more upset at Oov for those comments which I hope were unintentionally vague, or the community for eating them up like brainless zombies with no thought into their validity. Sorry, i didn't preface my post saying im not making binary statements. Me saying that "Oov is right", and me saying that youi shouldn't compare bl inf bullshit to the formula of "player devising counter's, not david kim" can be right. If i preface my points saying that the reasons why bl inf domination happened were all nonsesical. You cannot accept players to fight problems that happen from nonsensical reasons. This is not what Oov postulated. Because look what happens, players leave the game, because they know that expansion is coming, so they know that "FIX" is coming regardless of anything. Players should solve problems, not balance patches. But what terrans solved when queen balance patch happened(for balance patch to happen there needs to be something imbalanced first), which created a problem. So maybe blizzard is here to create a problem for players, that would work but doing so they are in fact also destroying the scheme. Blizzard is here to give tools and players to devise strategies nad counter strategies, i think we all lost that long ago, because every strategy runs its course gets into dangerous peak and gets nerfed and/or end with the end of game (WoL). You can't just sit there and blast Blizzard for not reverting the queen patch without having the foresight to know it couldn't be solved in 6 months after vowing to let the metagame play out more. It'd be counter-intuitive to the entire concept of allowing players the opportunity to solve the game. To disagree makes you a hypocrite. I highly doubt you had that foresight then, or do now. And the general lack of foresight in how the metagame can change is EXACTLY WHY Blizzard shouldn't be patching things so quickly, not even Broodlord Infestor. No one will give Blizzard credit, everyone are such hypocrites. both of you are essentially saying the same thing but missing a point: The game already received patches and changes since its development. for all we know, if the game is released in alpha build and probably the game would have worked fine without any patching too. the biggest flaw of this interview is that it assumes no matter what the game is, as long as it gives the players the tools and no bug, you don't need patching. Patching is based upon the idea that if the players do have the right tools to effectively solve the "problem". And problem doesn't just come from win rates. The viewers and players enjoyment are a concern as well. WoL pvz was a complete mess with toss all in vs zerg late game. No matter what metagame evolution there is, the matchup is still ruined because toss does not have effective counter to late game zerg composition. Even with 50/50 win rate, the matchup will still push people away from watching. Thus the game should be given a direction on how to increase the enjoyment from playing and watching the game. For example, Protoss doesn't play aggressively and only has turtling and all in style. No patching will help that if one style is dominantly stronger than the other. One style means there is less identifiable player with different style. WoL we had players who are better at mech and better at bio for example. then players can only differentiate themselves by unit controls (which is harder since only HTs control can a protoss really shine in a PvT) and builds (which can be copied easily)
They did have a counter to late game zerg composition. It was hard to get to and even harder to properly use.
A handful of Colossi on the ground, a handful of Carriers, a lot of Voidrays, enough HTs, recycled Archons, and the Mothership.
HTs stop Infestors from fungalling your army. They also deal damage to / repel Corruptors when they engage. Colossi and Carriers provide siege coverage for your HTs and slowly push through static defense. Archons also act as a meat shield and contribute to air battles when enemy is clumped. Voidrays are the damage dealers. Mothership cloaks / protects your army because Overseers are hard to keep alive with feedback, Carrier siege. Vortex gives you 2 get-out-of-jail-free cards in case you are out-positioned and can also give you 2 shots at just out-right winning the game.
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Lol, is this really iloveoov? His words look like a typical post on TL.
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What now DK! hehe. Since the beginning of WoL to HotS , there are some changes that I agreed on.
-BL / infestor nerf
-removal of vortex
-nerfing the 4 gate
-high ground warp ins
-early wol reaper speed
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On October 01 2013 14:11 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 13:59 ETisME wrote:On October 01 2013 13:27 rd wrote:On October 01 2013 07:51 DinoToss wrote:On October 01 2013 07:07 rd wrote:On October 01 2013 06:55 DinoToss wrote:On October 01 2013 06:45 rd wrote:
I can't take this Oov interview too seriously. He's very vague when he refers very to David Kim over-balancing the game. He doesn't mention any specific patches, he just makes the blanket statement of an observation that David Kim balances too much, which the interviewer unfortunately did not press at all.
Blizzard said they'd stop shaking up the metagame . If you compare the balanace patches in the first six weeks of WoL vs the first six weeks of HotS, it's night and day. They actually let broodlord infestor dominate the metagame for so damn long rather than nerf it into the ground to allow SOME player to take a crack at solving it.
It's really sad how eager everyone is to hop on the david kim/blizzard shitstorm train with any slight provocation or reason. Are you SERIOUS? They buffed queens, the buffed infestors. And then you use argument "and they stopped, be happy". And then you put the blame on people, to figure out how to beat buffed queens and buffed infestors which in fact were the reason why the mass infestor style and multiple queen style which with conjuction enabled the BL-Inf style to emerge. Because of how good queen buff happened to be. So after Blizz put all this mess (QUEEN BUFF) you say it was their good heart that made people figure out how to deal with that mess themselves. Good thinking. You're literally disagree'ing with Oov right now. They said they'd stop patching so much, and they did what they said. I mean, you're reading into an interview calling for Blizzard to stop patching so much, yet they wouldn't nerf (or unbuff) a unit (queen) which clearly shouldn't have buffed in the first place in hindsight. Is that not the epitome of following the directive that Oov wants? Don't touch the metagame, even if it's broken! They never touched it! You can't have it both ways, and Blizzard took the correct stance. How can you criticize them for that? You're a monumental hypocrite. And where in the fuck did I say blame the players? Blizzard, Oov, AND myself are not blaming players. They want the players to solve the problems, not balance patches. That's not blaming the players. That's giving them the opportunity to innovate and revolutionize. And Blizzard's resolve to stop patching, even despite having just released an imbalanced patch, were stringent. Because who the fuck would have known 6 months from then that no player would have solved it. You? Hindsight is 20/20 they say. Blizzard gave them the opportunity, thats what counts. Holy fucking bias. edit: I'm not sure if I should be more upset at Oov for those comments which I hope were unintentionally vague, or the community for eating them up like brainless zombies with no thought into their validity. Sorry, i didn't preface my post saying im not making binary statements. Me saying that "Oov is right", and me saying that youi shouldn't compare bl inf bullshit to the formula of "player devising counter's, not david kim" can be right. If i preface my points saying that the reasons why bl inf domination happened were all nonsesical. You cannot accept players to fight problems that happen from nonsensical reasons. This is not what Oov postulated. Because look what happens, players leave the game, because they know that expansion is coming, so they know that "FIX" is coming regardless of anything. Players should solve problems, not balance patches. But what terrans solved when queen balance patch happened(for balance patch to happen there needs to be something imbalanced first), which created a problem. So maybe blizzard is here to create a problem for players, that would work but doing so they are in fact also destroying the scheme. Blizzard is here to give tools and players to devise strategies nad counter strategies, i think we all lost that long ago, because every strategy runs its course gets into dangerous peak and gets nerfed and/or end with the end of game (WoL). You can't just sit there and blast Blizzard for not reverting the queen patch without having the foresight to know it couldn't be solved in 6 months after vowing to let the metagame play out more. It'd be counter-intuitive to the entire concept of allowing players the opportunity to solve the game. To disagree makes you a hypocrite. I highly doubt you had that foresight then, or do now. And the general lack of foresight in how the metagame can change is EXACTLY WHY Blizzard shouldn't be patching things so quickly, not even Broodlord Infestor. No one will give Blizzard credit, everyone are such hypocrites. both of you are essentially saying the same thing but missing a point: The game already received patches and changes since its development. for all we know, if the game is released in alpha build and probably the game would have worked fine without any patching too. the biggest flaw of this interview is that it assumes no matter what the game is, as long as it gives the players the tools and no bug, you don't need patching. Patching is based upon the idea that if the players do have the right tools to effectively solve the "problem". And problem doesn't just come from win rates. The viewers and players enjoyment are a concern as well. WoL pvz was a complete mess with toss all in vs zerg late game. No matter what metagame evolution there is, the matchup is still ruined because toss does not have effective counter to late game zerg composition. Even with 50/50 win rate, the matchup will still push people away from watching. Thus the game should be given a direction on how to increase the enjoyment from playing and watching the game. We agree that the game shouldn't be patched no matter what, EXCEPT when it comes to the queen patch. The irony is that even when they stuck to their guns and didn't patch it, he still won't acknowledge that Blizzard actually did stick to their word and stopped patching everything like they did throughout WoL before queen patch. That's the entire damn point. If you aren't going to knee-jerk patch without perfect foresight (which few to no people have, generally safe to assume no one), you can't make an exception to the rule. Not even one in which they fix something they literally broke themselves. Because it took 6 months to truly realize they did break it. Whether or not the game is enjoyable is a different argument though. This is purely about the frequency with which blizzard patches, and how consistently they stuck to their announcement. My initial argument is that Oov is disingenuously vague about how he refers to blizzard's balance patch history. Because either he's just blatantly wrong in what he says, or he's actually referring to absolutely no patches at all which we can both agree is pretty insane.
I think some points were lost in translation but in all seriousness we and probably ooV himself knows that we isn't 100% balancing patching or patching all together. Of course bug patches are required and of course balance patches are required when things are outright too powerful e.g. WoL ultra splash where everything behind the wall died, 5 rax reaper vs zerg etc.
However what I get from his interview since I can read korean is that hes referring to the bigger patches that affected the meta. Queen range patch. Before the patch, DRG was so memorable because he was one of the few zergs who truly differentiated himself to the rest. He made it possible without the need to buff queens. The immortal range patch. Before this patch there were Ps out there that used range 5 immortals exceptionally well (putting it in the front etc, microing things generally beautifully) and those that survived the dreaded 1/1/1. All these things could have been fixed with tweaks to maps and more exploration yet they went ahead with this patch. Everything was reset. DRG became a normal zerg.
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I've been paying a lot of attention to the SC2 forums lately, and I have to wonder: is the game really in such a bad shape?
I'm a WC3 player, still loyal to the bone and although I bought SC2 I never liked it. It's just not fun to me in comparison to WC3. But Blizzard is investing a lot of money and effort into it, and there certainly is a decent amount of tournaments and media coverage.
However, when looking at the forums on TeamLiquid, the dwindling numbers in viewership and the lack of new tournaments in the scene, it really does seem like the game is beginning to strike out.
Is it really that bad?
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On October 01 2013 14:08 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 13:59 Brian333 wrote:
Oov has some good points, but I think he's just as biased as anyone and it really shows through in what he says.
Yea, progamers should endure, they should try their hardest to deal with the meta-game. They should innovate, look for new strategies and tactics that counter existing ones and push forward the game. But, at the end of the day, they have their motivations as does Oov and David Kim and it's hard to say anyone is right. Just look at Bisu's recent interview where he talks about how hard it is to see the fans disappear, how difficult it becomes to just focus on your practice when you have to question what the purpose is. And, how do you bring those fans back? Make the game harder? Get rid of MBS, auto-mining, and bring back BW unit pathing? As LoL proved, the technical difficulty of the game is not related to the popularity of the game in such a direct way. Are constant patches and changes a bad thing? Does it not happen in other incredibly popular games?
If someone knew how to turn a video-game into a national sport, they would be getting paid an unbelievable amount of money to do so. Nobody knows and I'd say that's because there is no tangible answer. BW was closest to that answer til Blizzard pulled the plug. The idea at the time of pre-SC2 release was that SC2 was supposed to assume the mantle of BW because the latter had things that were lacking e.g. arcahic B.net UI, graphics etc It was a perfect opportunity to add and build upon what I saw as a strong foundation (a perfect opportunity to update the game). It was the game to carry the 10 years of starcraft and all its glory. Yet they went ahead and destroyed the foundation where the game was basically living off the BW popularity. Same thing happened with D3. No chat channels? no PvP? Everything that made starcraft through the original game and its expansion so awesome was a shell of its former self from game play, single player, story development and even ghost.net 2.0.
Except BW was clearly on a decline before Blizzard pulled the plug and I don't think anyone thought it was going to last. Problems such as STX's withdrawal from SC2 didn't suddenly happen. It would've happened regardless of if they were playing SC2 or BW. The truth is LoL is anything but BW and yet it's more popular now than BW is. If you're trying to tell me that an updated UI and graphics are what was needed to make BW more popular than LoL, then it goes back to my earlier point. There is nothing to suggest a face-lifted BW is going to work.
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On October 01 2013 14:21 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 14:11 rd wrote:On October 01 2013 13:59 ETisME wrote:On October 01 2013 13:27 rd wrote:On October 01 2013 07:51 DinoToss wrote:On October 01 2013 07:07 rd wrote:On October 01 2013 06:55 DinoToss wrote:On October 01 2013 06:45 rd wrote:
I can't take this Oov interview too seriously. He's very vague when he refers very to David Kim over-balancing the game. He doesn't mention any specific patches, he just makes the blanket statement of an observation that David Kim balances too much, which the interviewer unfortunately did not press at all.
Blizzard said they'd stop shaking up the metagame . If you compare the balanace patches in the first six weeks of WoL vs the first six weeks of HotS, it's night and day. They actually let broodlord infestor dominate the metagame for so damn long rather than nerf it into the ground to allow SOME player to take a crack at solving it.
It's really sad how eager everyone is to hop on the david kim/blizzard shitstorm train with any slight provocation or reason. Are you SERIOUS? They buffed queens, the buffed infestors. And then you use argument "and they stopped, be happy". And then you put the blame on people, to figure out how to beat buffed queens and buffed infestors which in fact were the reason why the mass infestor style and multiple queen style which with conjuction enabled the BL-Inf style to emerge. Because of how good queen buff happened to be. So after Blizz put all this mess (QUEEN BUFF) you say it was their good heart that made people figure out how to deal with that mess themselves. Good thinking. You're literally disagree'ing with Oov right now. They said they'd stop patching so much, and they did what they said. I mean, you're reading into an interview calling for Blizzard to stop patching so much, yet they wouldn't nerf (or unbuff) a unit (queen) which clearly shouldn't have buffed in the first place in hindsight. Is that not the epitome of following the directive that Oov wants? Don't touch the metagame, even if it's broken! They never touched it! You can't have it both ways, and Blizzard took the correct stance. How can you criticize them for that? You're a monumental hypocrite. And where in the fuck did I say blame the players? Blizzard, Oov, AND myself are not blaming players. They want the players to solve the problems, not balance patches. That's not blaming the players. That's giving them the opportunity to innovate and revolutionize. And Blizzard's resolve to stop patching, even despite having just released an imbalanced patch, were stringent. Because who the fuck would have known 6 months from then that no player would have solved it. You? Hindsight is 20/20 they say. Blizzard gave them the opportunity, thats what counts. Holy fucking bias. edit: I'm not sure if I should be more upset at Oov for those comments which I hope were unintentionally vague, or the community for eating them up like brainless zombies with no thought into their validity. Sorry, i didn't preface my post saying im not making binary statements. Me saying that "Oov is right", and me saying that youi shouldn't compare bl inf bullshit to the formula of "player devising counter's, not david kim" can be right. If i preface my points saying that the reasons why bl inf domination happened were all nonsesical. You cannot accept players to fight problems that happen from nonsensical reasons. This is not what Oov postulated. Because look what happens, players leave the game, because they know that expansion is coming, so they know that "FIX" is coming regardless of anything. Players should solve problems, not balance patches. But what terrans solved when queen balance patch happened(for balance patch to happen there needs to be something imbalanced first), which created a problem. So maybe blizzard is here to create a problem for players, that would work but doing so they are in fact also destroying the scheme. Blizzard is here to give tools and players to devise strategies nad counter strategies, i think we all lost that long ago, because every strategy runs its course gets into dangerous peak and gets nerfed and/or end with the end of game (WoL). You can't just sit there and blast Blizzard for not reverting the queen patch without having the foresight to know it couldn't be solved in 6 months after vowing to let the metagame play out more. It'd be counter-intuitive to the entire concept of allowing players the opportunity to solve the game. To disagree makes you a hypocrite. I highly doubt you had that foresight then, or do now. And the general lack of foresight in how the metagame can change is EXACTLY WHY Blizzard shouldn't be patching things so quickly, not even Broodlord Infestor. No one will give Blizzard credit, everyone are such hypocrites. both of you are essentially saying the same thing but missing a point: The game already received patches and changes since its development. for all we know, if the game is released in alpha build and probably the game would have worked fine without any patching too. the biggest flaw of this interview is that it assumes no matter what the game is, as long as it gives the players the tools and no bug, you don't need patching. Patching is based upon the idea that if the players do have the right tools to effectively solve the "problem". And problem doesn't just come from win rates. The viewers and players enjoyment are a concern as well. WoL pvz was a complete mess with toss all in vs zerg late game. No matter what metagame evolution there is, the matchup is still ruined because toss does not have effective counter to late game zerg composition. Even with 50/50 win rate, the matchup will still push people away from watching. Thus the game should be given a direction on how to increase the enjoyment from playing and watching the game. We agree that the game shouldn't be patched no matter what, EXCEPT when it comes to the queen patch. The irony is that even when they stuck to their guns and didn't patch it, he still won't acknowledge that Blizzard actually did stick to their word and stopped patching everything like they did throughout WoL before queen patch. That's the entire damn point. If you aren't going to knee-jerk patch without perfect foresight (which few to no people have, generally safe to assume no one), you can't make an exception to the rule. Not even one in which they fix something they literally broke themselves. Because it took 6 months to truly realize they did break it. Whether or not the game is enjoyable is a different argument though. This is purely about the frequency with which blizzard patches, and how consistently they stuck to their announcement. My initial argument is that Oov is disingenuously vague about how he refers to blizzard's balance patch history. Because either he's just blatantly wrong in what he says, or he's actually referring to absolutely no patches at all which we can both agree is pretty insane. I think some points were lost in translation but in all seriousness we and probably ooV himself knows that we isn't 100% balancing patching or patching all together. Of course bug patches are required and of course balance patches are required when things are outright too powerful e.g. WoL ultra splash where everything behind the wall died, 5 rax reaper vs zerg etc. However what I get from his interview since I can read korean is that hes referring to the bigger patches that affected the meta. Queen range patch. Before the patch, DRG was so memorable because he was one of the few zergs who truly differentiated himself to the rest. He made it possible without the need to buff queens. The immortal range patch. Before this patch there were Ps out there that used range 5 immortals exceptionally well (putting it in the front etc, microing things generally beautifully) and those that survived the dreaded 1/1/1. All these things could have been fixed with tweaks to maps and more exploration yet they went ahead with this patch. Everything was reset. DRG became a normal zerg.
honestly I think most people just forget how TvZ was like back then.
It was filled with SO MANY all ins, DRG probably was the most famous for roach ling baneling all ins.
bfhellions drops
mass hellions runby
2 port banshee
cloak banshee
bfhellion mauarder scv all in
most people only remember it as awesome because of MMA vs DRG. MMA nicely didn't go for Ghost and DRG won a lot of the games by roach ling baneling all in but hell, it was MMA vs DRG, all ins become cool
Then there are games where zerg just randomly die to initial 4 hellions because there is a gap between the wall off.
the worst part is that the hellions weren't even meant to kill the zerg, it was just an opportunity to do damage and is part of a standard opening, not matter you are going for triple fast 3rdCC or going for 2 base aggression.
It was similar to ZvP where almost 70% of the games were all ins.
A lot of the zerg wanted 5 range queen, not 6 though.
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EPT
