On October 01 2013 15:52 KoinZell wrote: Already stagnant? Like hell it is. I've recently begun seeing different strategies from the usual bio-mine that actually work. And the stagnation IS because of the patches. You don't have time to make another solid build, so you need to use a build that you know works. Bio-mine is only strong in the mid-game. Get your facts straight. And bio-mine is extremely weak against roach-hydra (Which is an mid-game army.). The only comp that bio mine is strong against is lingblingmuta. That's all. Think up another build instead of relying on that single comp. That's where the stagnation coming from, the zergs are only using that 1 build.. It's an unnecessary change that starts the whole sc2 scene from the start again. And the mines are obsolete because you can't use them to harass or use them in a straightout engagement. The pro's can adapt, but they can't use units that aren't worth the investment. And the thing is that you're talking about AFTER the change, so your claim is entirely illogical unless you can prove that David Kim wont push out another balance patch 1-2 months after the patch that we're talking about. It's an cycle that needs to have a end, and hopefully soon.
Terrans also find ling-bling muta to be silly on every map, but you think that we're complaining as much as the zerg community? Not really. Umm widowmine doesn't emphasize on the T ability to punish mistakes? You think running your army over widowmines isn't a mistake? Losing 50 banelings cause you ran over widowmines without detection isn't punishing? Sure the AI thing is silly, but most of the players are letting their AI's do the targeting. ''A+move'' is a saying, and that's actually just letting the AI choose the priority targets.
And it's golden how you use ZvZ as an example to say that ''see we use micro as well''.. It totally isn't because ZvZ is a mirror matchup where you need to get advantages in every area possible to win. It totally isn't because cost effectiveness is an important part of ZvZ.. Funny how terran needs to micro alot in every single matchup, not just mirror.
To me, you're the one who seems to be biased.
Different strategies from usual bio mine? like what? Getting a 3rd CC or before after doing a 1-1 timing? adding some marauders into the mix? Are you saying bio mine is weaker than mech in early and late game, ONLY strong in mid game? Bio mine is stronger than mech in every single phrase other than maybe late late game.
Think of other build instead of lingbanelingmuta? Using your own sentences, "they can't use units that aren't worth the investment". roach hydra just has a much smaller win rate and is a lot more map dependant than ling baneling muta. Zerg uses ling baneling muta is because it is the best optimal build against bio mine compared to other viable unit composition.
I am using ZvZ as the example on how Zerg needs to micro because you yourself said "the average zerg isn't used to microing or anything of sorts". Well, ok, ZvT then. Zerg split baneling against split bio is not micro. Zerg using infestors is not micro, Zerg using muta to magic box is not micro, Zerg sniping with muta is not micro, Zerg using burrow landmine is not micro, Zerg flank is not micro, zerg creep spread onto T's 4th is not micro, Zerg burrow to deny expo is not micro. I guess you and I have a very different perception on what is micro then or you think splitting bio is the only micro in the game.
And you misunderstand my point. The punishment should be punished by the T player, not an automatic AI targetting shot.
hahaha cold BRUTAL truth can we all agree now sc2 design team is possibly the worst thing that ever happened to starcraft ?
and can we all stop pretending sc2 is even remotly interesting ?
Team liquid played a huge role in censoring.
You can say the opposite, but while for 3 fucking years we had every single ex BW foreigner newbie, making shows / podcasts etc, monopolizing audience / speech time, to just fake the reality.
I mean, who are the community leaders ?
husky ? appollo ? artosis ? tasteless ? Day9 ?
ROFL
these are some of the biggest newbies that were around. They all claim they were pro gamers etc, while it's a fucking lie. They don't get crapshit about the games, and never were good to begin with.
rant off
edit : i'm so fucking pissed at this site edit 2 : white arrogant western newbies killed pro gaming because they have a huge complex in face of korea
Interesting that most people always seemed to think that sc2 needed a complete re design overhaul to make it a more interesting product, yet in this thread, people are praising someone who goes in the other extreme direction.
I think the game has a lot more issues than David Kim's often silly balance patches that stop it from reaching its potential as a great spectator sport (i love it, but i can see why some people have got bored of it).
On October 01 2013 16:42 AxionSteel wrote: Interesting that most people always seemed to think that sc2 needed a complete re design overhaul to make it a more interesting product, yet in this thread, people are praising someone who goes in the other extreme direction.
I think the game has a lot more issues than David Kim's often silly balance patches that stop it from reaching its potential as a great spectator sport (i love it, but i can see why some people have got bored of it).
maybe you didn't read oov properly he flat out said sc2 was bad compared to bw and then proceeds to make fun of DK about patches
why this game sucks has nothing to do with bal patches, its fundamentally flawed. remove hard counters, lower unit dmgs so things dont melt, more micro opportunities, more interesting unit mechanics, race identity, remove easy and lame macro mechanics etc etc.
On one hand we have pros whining that nothing gets fixed and peoples lives are at stake.
on the other we leave no time for the game to be truly figured out.
How many of the balance changes could have been fixedjust with maps and time?
Remember when xel naga was the best zerg map? Then later shak plat released and everyone complained non zerg races couldnt compete on it? Given time, everyone realized those maps were both shit for zerg. I think a lot might have been possible just by having maps that werent complete and total shit from the very beginning, but instead we got balance patches.
On October 01 2013 05:48 Zealously wrote: I would love it if David Kim lost a bet sometime and promised to sit down and listen (and also obey) to a guy like Oov. I think SC2 is a great game, but Oov (maybe not right now but in a month or two) and co. are the kind of guys that know how to make it even better without the sometimes unbearable bias progamers will try to bury you with ^^
No thanks. :|
I mean, I understand that oov is someone people look up to, but ignoring that one race is massively underpowered for several years while waiting for some player to come around and innovate enough to make it playable is a really awful design philosophy, especially for a game that's to a large extent supported by a big casual player base where a lack of balance can be a major turnoff.
It's also a bit annoying to see this Anti-David Kim crap crop up as soon as someone speaks out against him regardless of context (not talking about the post i quoted, just this thread in general). Usually, people are complaining that Blizzard isn't doing enough to balance the game and that they are too slow to fix things that are obviously broken, and now they're suddenly trying too hard?
On October 01 2013 16:41 Boonbag wrote: hahaha cold BRUTAL truth can we all agree now sc2 design team is possibly the worst thing that ever happened to starcraft ?
and can we all stop pretending sc2 is even remotly interesting ?
Team liquid played a huge role in censoring.
You can say the opposite, but while for 3 fucking years we had every single ex BW foreigner newbie, making shows / podcasts etc, monopolizing audience / speech time, to just fake the reality.
I mean, who are the community leaders ?
husky ? appollo ? artosis ? tasteless ? Day9 ?
ROFL
these are some of the biggest newbies that were around. They all claim they were pro gamers etc, while it's a fucking lie. They don't get crapshit about the games, and never were good to begin with.
rant off
edit : i'm so fucking pissed at this site edit 2 : white arrogant western newbies killed pro gaming because they have a huge complex in face of korea
User was temp banned for this post.
While I agree with most of it, the way it was expressed definitely deserved a ban.
On October 01 2013 16:42 AxionSteel wrote: Interesting that most people always seemed to think that sc2 needed a complete re design overhaul to make it a more interesting product, yet in this thread, people are praising someone who goes in the other extreme direction.
I think the game has a lot more issues than David Kim's often silly balance patches that stop it from reaching its potential as a great spectator sport (i love it, but i can see why some people have got bored of it).
Blizzard's pacing of their expansions directly works against iloveoov's wishes. Every expansion will bring a period of instability and I don't think the playerbase will be better off if Blizzard doesn't fix obviously broken strategies in the first six months after release. At some point you need to leave the game alone, but it's okay to address the most obvious offenders right after release. But if there are constant new release and overhauls of the game, you can never have stability until LotV has been out for a year and by that point SC2 could already be irrelevant.
I think it would have been better if they would have tried to finalize gameplay within one year and then made only minor changes to it afterwards, but Blizzard is just so slow with their release dates that they need three years for one expansion.
Love the honesty! I hope more and more Korean pros start talking about the problems of SC2. The popular foreigners are so worried about sponsors and their image that all you hear is "everything is fine" BS.
EDIT: while the balance team has been very heavy handed and frustrating on many occasions, it's the design that is really lacking IMO.
On October 01 2013 16:42 AxionSteel wrote: Interesting that most people always seemed to think that sc2 needed a complete re design overhaul to make it a more interesting product, yet in this thread, people are praising someone who goes in the other extreme direction.
I think the game has a lot more issues than David Kim's often silly balance patches that stop it from reaching its potential as a great spectator sport (i love it, but i can see why some people have got bored of it).
I guess people just want blizzard to try one of the two extremes and dislike the middle way.
One extreme: complete overhaul Another extreme: do nothing
Leaving sc2 as is, hoping for players and mapmakers to make it balanced (like it happened in bw), will probably lead to even greater problems. Unlike bw sc2 is way too "automated" so there's not much room left for playing game with different style. You can't have micro heavy style, you can't play megaturtle, you can't make complicated strategical decisions.
So the fewer options to play game differently you have, the fewer your chances to develop some strategy and builds to deal with opponent's imba unit or imba build.
Really good interview, hope the guys at blizzard get a chance to read this so maybe they open up their eyes and see what the constant patching is doing.
Awesome interview thank you. Im still a bit sad Boxer got replaced would of liked them both to work together, but iloveoov really sounds like he wants to make this work
On October 01 2013 16:41 Boonbag wrote: hahaha cold BRUTAL truth can we all agree now sc2 design team is possibly the worst thing that ever happened to starcraft ?
and can we all stop pretending sc2 is even remotly interesting ?
Team liquid played a huge role in censoring.
You can say the opposite, but while for 3 fucking years we had every single ex BW foreigner newbie, making shows / podcasts etc, monopolizing audience / speech time, to just fake the reality.
I mean, who are the community leaders ?
husky ? appollo ? artosis ? tasteless ? Day9 ?
ROFL
these are some of the biggest newbies that were around. They all claim they were pro gamers etc, while it's a fucking lie. They don't get crapshit about the games, and never were good to begin with.
rant off
edit : i'm so fucking pissed at this site edit 2 : white arrogant western newbies killed pro gaming because they have a huge complex in face of korea
User was temp banned for this post.
LOL Agreed, and very well said. Day9 and Artosis weren't 'some of the biggest newbies' though, don't push it. It's in their interest to say that SC2's the best game that's ever existed, I'm quite convinced they don't actually believe in their own praising speeches.
On October 01 2013 13:59 Brian333 wrote: Oov has some good points, but I think he's just as biased as anyone and it really shows through in what he says.
Yea, progamers should endure, they should try their hardest to deal with the meta-game. They should innovate, look for new strategies and tactics that counter existing ones and push forward the game. But, at the end of the day, they have their motivations as does Oov and David Kim and it's hard to say anyone is right. Just look at Bisu's recent interview where he talks about how hard it is to see the fans disappear, how difficult it becomes to just focus on your practice when you have to question what the purpose is. And, how do you bring those fans back? Make the game harder? Get rid of MBS, auto-mining, and bring back BW unit pathing? As LoL proved, the technical difficulty of the game is not related to the popularity of the game in such a direct way. Are constant patches and changes a bad thing? Does it not happen in other incredibly popular games?
If someone knew how to turn a video-game into a national sport, they would be getting paid an unbelievable amount of money to do so. Nobody knows and I'd say that's because there is no tangible answer.
BW was closest to that answer til Blizzard pulled the plug. The idea at the time of pre-SC2 release was that SC2 was supposed to assume the mantle of BW because the latter had things that were lacking e.g. arcahic B.net UI, graphics etc It was a perfect opportunity to add and build upon what I saw as a strong foundation (a perfect opportunity to update the game). It was the game to carry the 10 years of starcraft and all its glory.
Yet they went ahead and destroyed the foundation where the game was basically living off the BW popularity. Same thing happened with D3. No chat channels? no PvP? Everything that made starcraft through the original game and its expansion so awesome was a shell of its former self from game play, single player, story development and even ghost.net 2.0.
Except BW was clearly on a decline before Blizzard pulled the plug and I don't think anyone thought it was going to last. Problems such as STX's withdrawal from SC2 didn't suddenly happen. It would've happened regardless of if they were playing SC2 or BW. The truth is LoL is anything but BW and yet it's more popular now than BW is. If you're trying to tell me that an updated UI and graphics are what was needed to make BW more popular than LoL, then it goes back to my earlier point. There is nothing to suggest a face-lifted BW is going to work.
Its decline was mainly due to the imminent release of SC2 around 2010. Then Blizzard just randomly shows up after all these years and starts a lawsuit over KeSPA and its illegal use of BW. There was far too much negativity surrounding Blizzard and its actions toward BW. They indirectly killed MBCgames and the fabled MSL. They ignored OGN and KeSPA while riding on the 10 years of popularity built by them. They gave GOM, an ametuer organisation (to the korean viewers - also refer to the GOM classics) when it came to starleagues (and rival I suppose to the big two) during that time the broadcasting rights. No SC2 from the major broadcasting stations especially the legendary OGN and constant threats of pulling the plug on BW by one and only Blizzard. It was literally doom and gloom across multiple korean starcraft forums. But the damage was done here and thats why HOTS is having so much trouble taking off while WoL never took off among the casuals and fans.
If SC2 did not exist, BW still do this day would be huge in Korea. It would still be the same with some fluctuation. I can see BW vs LoL being more of an even playing field in Korea. Thats the difference. SC2 brought in a huge foreign scene thanks to the game being easier, more updated in terms of graphics and what not.. however it is clearly deteriorating the korean starcraft scene from a progamer and fan perspective. It was saddening to see literally 5 people turn up to watch the proleague... Ive been there several times and it was ALWAYS packed with fan girls always cheering for their favorite team/players, starting the countdown for every match.
Of course LoL is more popular than BW. The BW scene is buried in peace now. But just wind back to 2010, the release year for SC2. This is when Korean Air OSL Finals between Flash vs Effort took place. Just look at the crowd. BW could have been on a decline.. but it was no way shape or form going to die out just like that. If Bisu made it to an OSL final, i cannot fathom how fast the seats would have filled up. I repeat, if Bisu made it to an OSL finals the world would have exploded. I would eat a hat if less people turned up for this final than the korean air osl finals. No LoL tournament would out match this in any way shape or form in terms of viewership, crowds, cheers w/e.
People need to realise that its the korean scene that is deteriorating fast, not the foreign scene. As for what would happen if the Korean scene collapses all together, I don't know. Maybe more determined players will go over to EU/US to play? Fact of the matter is that starcraft is in a really dire state in Korea. If BW rose from the grave in Korea, it would instantly overtake SC2 popularity over there (with alot of retired players coming back). There is not a single shred of a doubt about this..
On October 01 2013 16:41 Boonbag wrote: hahaha cold BRUTAL truth can we all agree now sc2 design team is possibly the worst thing that ever happened to starcraft ?
and can we all stop pretending sc2 is even remotly interesting ?
Team liquid played a huge role in censoring.
You can say the opposite, but while for 3 fucking years we had every single ex BW foreigner newbie, making shows / podcasts etc, monopolizing audience / speech time, to just fake the reality.
I mean, who are the community leaders ?
husky ? appollo ? artosis ? tasteless ? Day9 ?
ROFL
these are some of the biggest newbies that were around. They all claim they were pro gamers etc, while it's a fucking lie. They don't get crapshit about the games, and never were good to begin with.
rant off
edit : i'm so fucking pissed at this site edit 2 : white arrogant western newbies killed pro gaming because they have a huge complex in face of korea
User was temp banned for this post.
LOL Agreed, and very well said. Day9 and Artosis weren't 'some of the biggest newbies' though, don't push it. It's in their interest to say that SC2's the best game that's ever existed, I'm quite convinced they don't actually believe in their own praising speeches.
BUT I STILL HAVE HOPE AND ALWAYS WILL
As I understand Day9 wrote recently that BW is the greatest game of all time.
On October 01 2013 13:59 Brian333 wrote: Oov has some good points, but I think he's just as biased as anyone and it really shows through in what he says.
Yea, progamers should endure, they should try their hardest to deal with the meta-game. They should innovate, look for new strategies and tactics that counter existing ones and push forward the game. But, at the end of the day, they have their motivations as does Oov and David Kim and it's hard to say anyone is right. Just look at Bisu's recent interview where he talks about how hard it is to see the fans disappear, how difficult it becomes to just focus on your practice when you have to question what the purpose is. And, how do you bring those fans back? Make the game harder? Get rid of MBS, auto-mining, and bring back BW unit pathing? As LoL proved, the technical difficulty of the game is not related to the popularity of the game in such a direct way. Are constant patches and changes a bad thing? Does it not happen in other incredibly popular games?
If someone knew how to turn a video-game into a national sport, they would be getting paid an unbelievable amount of money to do so. Nobody knows and I'd say that's because there is no tangible answer.
BW was closest to that answer til Blizzard pulled the plug. The idea at the time of pre-SC2 release was that SC2 was supposed to assume the mantle of BW because the latter had things that were lacking e.g. arcahic B.net UI, graphics etc It was a perfect opportunity to add and build upon what I saw as a strong foundation (a perfect opportunity to update the game). It was the game to carry the 10 years of starcraft and all its glory.
Yet they went ahead and destroyed the foundation where the game was basically living off the BW popularity. Same thing happened with D3. No chat channels? no PvP? Everything that made starcraft through the original game and its expansion so awesome was a shell of its former self from game play, single player, story development and even ghost.net 2.0.
Except BW was clearly on a decline before Blizzard pulled the plug and I don't think anyone thought it was going to last. Problems such as STX's withdrawal from SC2 didn't suddenly happen. It would've happened regardless of if they were playing SC2 or BW. The truth is LoL is anything but BW and yet it's more popular now than BW is. If you're trying to tell me that an updated UI and graphics are what was needed to make BW more popular than LoL, then it goes back to my earlier point. There is nothing to suggest a face-lifted BW is going to work.
Its decline was mainly due to the imminent release of SC2 around 2010. Then Blizzard just randomly shows up after all these years and starts a lawsuit over KeSPA and its illegal use of BW. There was far too much negativity surrounding Blizzard and its actions toward BW. They indirectly killed MBCgames and the fabled MSL. They ignored OGN and KeSPA while riding on the 10 years of popularity built by them. They gave GOM, an ametuer organisation (to the korean viewers - also refer to the GOM classics) when it came to starleagues (and rival I suppose to the big two) during that time the broadcasting rights. No SC2 from the major broadcasting stations especially the legendary OGN and constant threats of pulling the plug on BW by one and only Blizzard. It was literally doom and gloom across multiple korean starcraft forums. But the damage was done here and thats why HOTS is having so much trouble taking off while WoL never took off among the casuals and fans.
If SC2 did not exist, BW still do this day would be huge in Korea. It would still be the same with some fluctuation. I can see BW vs LoL being more of an even playing field in Korea. Thats the difference. SC2 brought in a huge foreign scene thanks to the game being easier, more updated in terms of graphics and what not.. however it is clearly deteriorating the korean starcraft scene from a progamer and fan perspective. It was saddening to see literally 5 people turn up to watch the proleague... Ive been there several times and it was ALWAYS packed with fan girls always cheering for their favorite team/players, starting the countdown for every match.
Of course LoL is more popular than BW. The BW scene is buried in peace now. But just wind back to 2010, the release year for SC2. This is when Korean Air OSL Finals between Flash vs Effort took place. Just look at the crowd. BW could have been on a decline.. but it was no way shape or form going to die out just like that. If Bisu made it to an OSL final, i cannot fathom how fast the seats would have filled up. I repeat, if Bisu made it to an OSL finals the world would have exploded. I would eat a hat if less people turned up for this final than the korean air osl finals. No LoL tournament would out match this in any way shape or form in terms of viewership, crowds, cheers w/e.
People need to realise that its the korean scene that is deteriorating fast, not the foreign scene. As for what would happen if the Korean scene collapses all together, I don't know. Maybe more determined players will go over to EU/US to play? Fact of the matter is that starcraft is in a really dire state in Korea. If BW rose from the grave in Korea, it would instantly overtake SC2 popularity over there (with alot of retired players coming back). There is not a single shred of a doubt about this..
Lol lol lol, BW graphisms are bad, no one wants to play it XD
EPT
would of liked them both to work together, but iloveoov really sounds like he wants to make this work 
