|
On October 03 2013 02:31 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 05:44 BlackPanther wrote:
I think a bigger issue than balance patching is the inherent flaws in the game design that make the game stale. Broodwar remains dynamic, a player 10% worse than another player is just not physically able to execute the strategy of that player in BW. A mid master player can execute pretty much what a pro can, just that they miss details here and there. A slightly worse player doing say Reaver/Sair on BW would get completely crushed.
Maybe this is a fun thought: because in BW the high level players are restricted by mechanics, there is actually a smaller group of them and they are likely to be more strategically naive (compared to SC2 where high level players have to be good at both and there are more high level players), so there is a lot of room to outplay them with strategy in-game. It's one of the reasons Flash was so good: great at mechanics and at decision making, but the reason he could stand out for the latter was because his competition were people like Bisu and Jaedong, whom aren't known for perfect decision making. I mean, how often will we see Effort or Jaedong or some other player with monstrous apm lose game after game in sc2 because their decision making is awful?
|
On October 01 2013 05:45 GhostFiber wrote:
David Kim ruining the game. I think it's too late now... He should keep balancing SC2, finish what he started.. He has already killed off so many super risky and suspense driven builds like the WoL reaper, Queen rush, Thor drops, etc. He should just continue to kill everything off because that is what Blizzard pay him to do.
To be fair, what killed many of those strats was the fact that maps got bigger and bigger and bigger. At least, that heavily contributed to it.
|
On October 07 2013 21:32 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 02:31 FiWiFaKi wrote:On October 01 2013 05:44 BlackPanther wrote:
I think a bigger issue than balance patching is the inherent flaws in the game design that make the game stale. Broodwar remains dynamic, a player 10% worse than another player is just not physically able to execute the strategy of that player in BW. A mid master player can execute pretty much what a pro can, just that they miss details here and there. A slightly worse player doing say Reaver/Sair on BW would get completely crushed. Maybe this is a fun thought: because in BW the high level players are restricted by mechanics, there is actually a smaller group of them and they are likely to be more strategically naive (compared to SC2 where high level players have to be good at both and there are more high level players), so there is a lot of room to outplay them with strategy in-game. It's one of the reasons Flash was so good: great at mechanics and at decision making, but the reason he could stand out for the latter was because his competition were people like Bisu and Jaedong, whom aren't known for perfect decision making. I mean, how often will we see Effort or Jaedong or some other player with monstrous apm lose game after game in sc2 because their decision making is awful?
On May 06 2013 13:12 Hot_Bid wrote:
It just sounds like OP wants StarCraft to be something it isn't. He thinks RTS should be more about strategy and less about the mechanical element but it's not. The core of an RTS is that it is a game played with mechanics. The mistake the OP makes is that he believes people who macro better don't deserve the win or that this kind of win shouldn't exist in a "true RTS." It's just what he believes an RTS should be and what the rest (just about everyone else) believes it is.
It's interesting, a lot of people (ie: mostly those who are bad at macro) believe that by removing some or all of the mechanical requirement of starcraft you get more strategies and that "outsmarting" your opponent will be what decides matches. In reality, the opposite is true. No competitive game or RTS can exist without a mechanical requirement of some sort, or the game devolves into copycatting the best strategy and some sort of rock paper scissors guessing game. If you can't out-execute your opponent then you can't consistently beat him. It is very difficult to out-innovate your opponents every time because in today's environment coaches, practice partners, replay analysis, etc your strategies will get analyzed and you will lose, eventually.
Added mechanical ceiling actually adds strategical options. An example would be Bisu in SC1, his DT-corsair strategy isn't new or even super innovative, but it never worked in the proscene before him because nobody could pull it off because of its so ridiculously high skill ceiling. The same is true for a lot of the openings Flash did, he was just so good at positioning and defense that he can take greedy expansions. Remove the mechanical requirements and you remove a lot of the potential innovation and strategy.
Food for thought.
|
On October 07 2013 21:32 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 02:31 FiWiFaKi wrote:On October 01 2013 05:44 BlackPanther wrote:
I think a bigger issue than balance patching is the inherent flaws in the game design that make the game stale. Broodwar remains dynamic, a player 10% worse than another player is just not physically able to execute the strategy of that player in BW. A mid master player can execute pretty much what a pro can, just that they miss details here and there. A slightly worse player doing say Reaver/Sair on BW would get completely crushed. Maybe this is a fun thought: because in BW the high level players are restricted by mechanics, there is actually a smaller group of them and they are likely to be more strategically naive (compared to SC2 where high level players have to be good at both and there are more high level players), so there is a lot of room to outplay them with strategy in-game. It's one of the reasons Flash was so good: great at mechanics and at decision making, but the reason he could stand out for the latter was because his competition were people like Bisu and Jaedong, whom aren't known for perfect decision making. I mean, how often will we see Effort or Jaedong or some other player with monstrous apm lose game after game in sc2 because their decision making is awful?
There are a lot of really good players in BW with good mechanics and I wouldn't say that's it at all. You need to have good star sense and believe it or not players don't mindlessly do builds. There is still a lot of creativity and since they've seen so much they know how to flawlessly make their transitions into what they need. I wouldn't call them strategically naive at all. In SC2 positioning is so important and battles can end ridiculously fast. High risk; high reward. You make one very big mistake and that can cost you the game in SC2. It's very hard to make breath-taking comebacks unless your opponent makes a really boneheaded play. There really isn't a lot of room to outplay your opponent in SC2 because the battles do end so much faster and if your army is out of position. Well fuck, if you go back to defend or be indecisive for a split second. You find yourself losing the game. As for Jaedong and Flash in SC2. Their Star sense and transitions are ridiculously bad. They haven't figured out the game. Another thing: always keep your eye on the ball. If you don't that's how bad positioning happens. Know your opponent's army and know where it is at all times.
Oh and HB nailed it.
|
yeah, you can't let the metagame develop if you keep nerfing/buffing things
|
Well on the other hand if you let the meta game sit then you end up with the end of WoL again with BL/Infestor making half of the non-pros quit the game.
I for one dont like these small changes, I would be a much bigger fan of a massive change every season like they do in LoL. It keeps the game so fresh. I know this would be hard to pull off in an RTS but it could work. Hell there was that famous massive BW patch that fixed everything
|
iloveoov, a BW terran, was glad that no other race ever got buffed... I woner why... especially when Terran was super OP in the beginning on WoL... and he wanted no balance patches... Like really, you guys need to stop sucking his D. He is just biased as all hell.
|
k i like iloveoov. Said the same I did a bit after the WoL release. It is sad though that many non competitive players actually love the WoW approach of balance, as the Moba games show. But I like to achieve true mastery and not master the art of adapting the quickest to changes.
|
On October 29 2013 09:56 Hydro033 wrote:
iloveoov, a BW terran, was glad that no other race ever got buffed... I woner why... especially when Terran was super OP in the beginning on WoL... and he wanted no balance patches... Like really, you guys need to stop sucking his D. He is just biased as all hell.
And yet basically all he said after that was praising the BW Protosses and their ingenuity. He brings up a good point that I hadn't really realized before. Good work iloveooc.
|
So iloveoov and boxer r saying thst dk is killing sc 2 by constantly making the game beta. Hmmm interesting read though i read in korean haha thx!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
