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On October 01 2013 19:02 YyapSsap wrote:
People need to realise that its the korean scene that is deteriorating fast, not the foreign scene. As for what would happen if the Korean scene collapses all together, I don't know. Maybe more determined players will go over to EU/US to play? Fact of the matter is that starcraft is in a really dire state in Korea. If BW rose from the grave in Korea, it would instantly overtake SC2 popularity over there (with alot of retired players coming back). There is not a single shred of a doubt about this..
Who cares about the korean scene when SC2 still has the global scene? That's why the transition happened in the first place! To attract sponsors that need to promote to a global fanbase, like Auction and Jogunshop 
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On October 01 2013 19:10 NicksonReyes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 19:02 YyapSsap wrote:
People need to realise that its the korean scene that is deteriorating fast, not the foreign scene. As for what would happen if the Korean scene collapses all together, I don't know. Maybe more determined players will go over to EU/US to play? Fact of the matter is that starcraft is in a really dire state in Korea. If BW rose from the grave in Korea, it would instantly overtake SC2 popularity over there (with alot of retired players coming back). There is not a single shred of a doubt about this.. Who cares about the korean scene when SC2 still has the global scene? That's why the transition happened in the first place! To attract sponsors that need to promote to a global fanbase, like Auction and Jogunshop
Actually, it was quite amusing to see Jogunshop being a sponsor of this season's GSL. Its pretty.. disheartening compared to the major sponsors of the past.
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On October 01 2013 19:10 NicksonReyes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 19:02 YyapSsap wrote:
People need to realise that its the korean scene that is deteriorating fast, not the foreign scene. As for what would happen if the Korean scene collapses all together, I don't know. Maybe more determined players will go over to EU/US to play? Fact of the matter is that starcraft is in a really dire state in Korea. If BW rose from the grave in Korea, it would instantly overtake SC2 popularity over there (with alot of retired players coming back). There is not a single shred of a doubt about this.. Who cares about the korean scene when SC2 still has the global scene? That's why the transition happened in the first place! To attract sponsors that need to promote to a global fanbase, like Auction and Jogunshop
The global scene is boring because all the best players are Korean. I don't know about you, but when I still watched StarCraft 2 I tended to avoid foreigner events. Why? The level of play is pitiful compared to Korean events.
I could care less if Brood War was unpopular in the non-Korean scene. I'd prefer to just go back to watching BW OSL and Proleague in Korean on restreams if BW hadn't been killed off in Korea.
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Russian Federation221 Posts
On October 01 2013 19:28 Arco wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 19:10 NicksonReyes wrote:On October 01 2013 19:02 YyapSsap wrote:
People need to realise that its the korean scene that is deteriorating fast, not the foreign scene. As for what would happen if the Korean scene collapses all together, I don't know. Maybe more determined players will go over to EU/US to play? Fact of the matter is that starcraft is in a really dire state in Korea. If BW rose from the grave in Korea, it would instantly overtake SC2 popularity over there (with alot of retired players coming back). There is not a single shred of a doubt about this.. Who cares about the korean scene when SC2 still has the global scene? That's why the transition happened in the first place! To attract sponsors that need to promote to a global fanbase, like Auction and Jogunshop The global scene is boring because all the best players are Korean. I don't know about you, but when I still watched StarCraft 2 I tended to avoid foreigner events. Why? The level of play is pitiful compared to Korean events. I could care less if Brood War was unpopular in the non-Korean scene. I'd prefer to just go back to watching BW OSL and Proleague in Korean on restreams if BW hadn't been killed off in Korea.
Same for me.
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On October 01 2013 19:28 Arco wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 19:10 NicksonReyes wrote:On October 01 2013 19:02 YyapSsap wrote:
People need to realise that its the korean scene that is deteriorating fast, not the foreign scene. As for what would happen if the Korean scene collapses all together, I don't know. Maybe more determined players will go over to EU/US to play? Fact of the matter is that starcraft is in a really dire state in Korea. If BW rose from the grave in Korea, it would instantly overtake SC2 popularity over there (with alot of retired players coming back). There is not a single shred of a doubt about this.. Who cares about the korean scene when SC2 still has the global scene? That's why the transition happened in the first place! To attract sponsors that need to promote to a global fanbase, like Auction and Jogunshop The global scene is boring because all the best players are Korean. I don't know about you, but when I still watched StarCraft 2 I tended to avoid foreigner events. Why? The level of play is pitiful compared to Korean events. I could care less if Brood War was unpopular in the non-Korean scene. I'd prefer to just go back to watching BW OSL and Proleague in Korean on restreams if BW hadn't been killed off in Korea.
Me too actually. The day when one of the big four makes it back to an OSL or MSL finals.. is only a dream now 
Its kind of weird because even if there was no foreign scene to speak of in terms of actual pros, it was still huge in terms of fanbase and community. Alot of foreigners/koreans would just spectate but never really play BW ladder or even play BW at all.
For instance, I use to play war3 ladder and then dota (or any other games time to time) but always watched BW progames. Its kinda strange thinking about it, but looks like it truly was a sport to me anyway.
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On October 01 2013 19:21 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 19:10 NicksonReyes wrote:On October 01 2013 19:02 YyapSsap wrote:
People need to realise that its the korean scene that is deteriorating fast, not the foreign scene. As for what would happen if the Korean scene collapses all together, I don't know. Maybe more determined players will go over to EU/US to play? Fact of the matter is that starcraft is in a really dire state in Korea. If BW rose from the grave in Korea, it would instantly overtake SC2 popularity over there (with alot of retired players coming back). There is not a single shred of a doubt about this.. Who cares about the korean scene when SC2 still has the global scene? That's why the transition happened in the first place! To attract sponsors that need to promote to a global fanbase, like Auction and Jogunshop Actually, it was quite amusing to see Jogunshop being a sponsor of this season's GSL. Its pretty.. disheartening compared to the major sponsors of the past.
Yeah. The thing is, if the transition didn't happen at all, sponsors like those would've benefited from the tournaments more lol.
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Fire DKim, please. Blizzard do it.
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On October 01 2013 19:28 Arco wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 19:10 NicksonReyes wrote:On October 01 2013 19:02 YyapSsap wrote:
People need to realise that its the korean scene that is deteriorating fast, not the foreign scene. As for what would happen if the Korean scene collapses all together, I don't know. Maybe more determined players will go over to EU/US to play? Fact of the matter is that starcraft is in a really dire state in Korea. If BW rose from the grave in Korea, it would instantly overtake SC2 popularity over there (with alot of retired players coming back). There is not a single shred of a doubt about this.. Who cares about the korean scene when SC2 still has the global scene? That's why the transition happened in the first place! To attract sponsors that need to promote to a global fanbase, like Auction and Jogunshop The global scene is boring because all the best players are Korean. I don't know about you, but when I still watched StarCraft 2 I tended to avoid foreigner events. Why? The level of play is pitiful compared to Korean events. I could care less if Brood War was unpopular in the non-Korean scene. I'd prefer to just go back to watching BW OSL and Proleague in Korean on restreams if BW hadn't been killed off in Korea.
definitely the case for me as well.
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Russian Federation221 Posts
On October 01 2013 19:40 bearhug wrote:
Fire DKim, please. Blizzard do it.
Actually it was Dustin Browder who designed this game.
David Kim is responsible for balance and balance is fine in SC2.
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On October 01 2013 19:54 MikeMM wrote:Actually it was Dustin Browder who designed this game. David Kim is responsible for balance and balance is fine in SC2.
David Kim's method of balance:
1. Funnel each matchup into one viable strategy
2. Make that strategy random by introducing random elements such as widowmines
3. BAM! the game is balanced, each with a winrate of 33%
4. Profit.
Even a monkey can balance a game with DK's method.
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excellent interview, I feel the same way, maybe because I followed the BW ways from the start
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On October 01 2013 20:24 jotmang wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 19:54 MikeMM wrote:On October 01 2013 19:40 bearhug wrote:
Fire DKim, please. Blizzard do it. Actually it was Dustin Browder who designed this game. David Kim is responsible for balance and balance is fine in SC2. David Kim's method of balance:1. Funnel each matchup into one viable strategy 2. Make that strategy random by introducing random elements such as widowmines 3. BAM! the game is balanced, each with a winrate of 33% 4. Profit. Even a monkey can balance a game with DK's method.
Have you watched a single PvZ in HotS?
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On October 01 2013 20:32 braller wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 20:24 jotmang wrote:On October 01 2013 19:54 MikeMM wrote:On October 01 2013 19:40 bearhug wrote:
Fire DKim, please. Blizzard do it. Actually it was Dustin Browder who designed this game. David Kim is responsible for balance and balance is fine in SC2. David Kim's method of balance:1. Funnel each matchup into one viable strategy 2. Make that strategy random by introducing random elements such as widowmines 3. BAM! the game is balanced, each with a winrate of 33% 4. Profit. Even a monkey can balance a game with DK's method. Have you watched a single PvZ in HotS?
TvZ: Widowmine MMM Parade vs Muta ling bling
TvP: SCV pull + Storm-Snipe randomness
PvZ: I'll give you that, maybe 2-3 strats there
Mirror matchups are balanced by definition so let's see. 5 out of 6 possible matchups... lol
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Never ending beta test. That really hit for me. But at the same time, there really isn't anything we can do about it.
As it stands, less and less people are staying interested in SC2 for a number of reasons. The strategies get stale. Personalities are hard to appreciate. It's damn near impossible for upcoming talent to get noticed/fostered. Blizzard definitely has interests in this game, as hard as it is to believe. There is no easy fix.
Allowing the game to develop as it stands now does give it a chance to just die completely. Motivation to find better strategies and perfecting the skills to executing them becomes possible when they do just leave it alone, but at the same time trying to find the motivation to actually practice and try to get better when the scene itself is getting more and more stagnant is tough.
No easy answers.
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lol iloveoov laying down the truth ;d
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This community is so beyond toxic and contradictory that it's a wonder the servers we're hosted on haven't spontaneously bricked from the sheer force of bullshit.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 01 2013 20:58 RampancyTW wrote:
This community is so beyond toxic and contradictory that it's a wonder the servers we're hosted on haven't spontaneously bricked from the sheer force of bullshit.
Well, thank god machines do not know the difference between the fact and BS.
Also, i love iloveoov for this interview. He pretty much proved that the loudest part of this community are hypocrites.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 01 2013 20:42 jotmang wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 20:32 braller wrote:On October 01 2013 20:24 jotmang wrote:On October 01 2013 19:54 MikeMM wrote:On October 01 2013 19:40 bearhug wrote:
Fire DKim, please. Blizzard do it. Actually it was Dustin Browder who designed this game. David Kim is responsible for balance and balance is fine in SC2. David Kim's method of balance:1. Funnel each matchup into one viable strategy 2. Make that strategy random by introducing random elements such as widowmines 3. BAM! the game is balanced, each with a winrate of 33% 4. Profit. Even a monkey can balance a game with DK's method. Have you watched a single PvZ in HotS? TvZ: Widowmine MMM Parade vs Muta ling bling TvP: SCV pull + Storm-Snipe randomness PvZ: I'll give you that, maybe 2-3 strats there Mirror matchups are balanced by definition so let's see. 5 out of 6 possible matchups... lol
I love how you call Storm-Snipe and Widow mine-anything relation random. In fact a-moved BCs are way more random than those relations.
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It is a fun interview to read, and it is great he is this honest.
And even though he is not completely wrong on balancing, I don't think he is completely right either.
But sc1 had a lot less competition from other games and more time to grow naturally.
Also I think there were pretty big changes in what strategies where possible to due do to map changes in sc:bw. And with the maps changing for ever I don't see that it's all that different from what David Kim does now. All I would be willing to agree on is that the changes since the HOTS release of balance changes were pretty fast and that could be slowed down. This is a clear advantage of going the way of the maps to balance your game, as you can just use one or two new maps and keep some old ones for a while longer.
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On October 01 2013 16:38 ETisME wrote:
Different strategies from usual bio mine? like what? Getting a 3rd CC or before after doing a 1-1 timing? adding some marauders into the mix?
Are you saying bio mine is weaker than mech in early and late game, ONLY strong in mid game? Bio mine is stronger than mech in every single phrase other than maybe late late game.
Think of other build instead of lingbanelingmuta?
Using your own sentences, "they can't use units that aren't worth the investment".
roach hydra just has a much smaller win rate and is a lot more map dependant than ling baneling muta.
Zerg uses ling baneling muta is because it is the best optimal build against bio mine compared to other viable unit composition.
I am using ZvZ as the example on how Zerg needs to micro because you yourself said "the average zerg isn't used to microing or anything of sorts".
Well, ok, ZvT then.
Zerg split baneling against split bio is not micro. Zerg using infestors is not micro, Zerg using muta to magic box is not micro, Zerg sniping with muta is not micro, Zerg using burrow landmine is not micro, Zerg flank is not micro, zerg creep spread onto T's 4th is not micro, Zerg burrow to deny expo is not micro.
I guess you and I have a very different perception on what is micro then or you think splitting bio is the only micro in the game.
And you misunderstand my point. The punishment should be punished by the T player, not an automatic AI targetting shot.
I've seen terrans use banshees, Ravens, do more mine drops, Hellion reaper openings, and.. Hmm can't seem to think of too many more compositions that I've recently seen (It is quite a rare case tbh.). Though the ''strategies'' entail timings, and other things like that as well, not just composition.
Bio-mine is ofc stronger than mech in both early and mid game. But in the late game it IS weak compared to a mech army.
Roach Hydra destroys bio mine. The reason it has a smaller win ratio is because the terran usually goes for tanks to counter it. Terran can't stay on bio-mine if the zerg changes things up.
And you're saying that ''lingblingmuta'' is a strong comp against bio mine? In what world? Sure it's great for harassing and keeping the Terran back, but in a straight on engagement, Bio-mine destroys lingblingmuta. And that's why you also see tons of games where the late-game zerg who hasn't transitioned into ultra-infestor or any high tier units, will lose. Even though it would seem that the Zerg had the ''upper hand''. So let me tell you a secret why terran goes for Bio-mine. It's the only comp that is efficient against Lingblingmuta. If the zerg isn't ready to change compositions, the terran also can't change compositions. Terran has practically no efficient compsition other than bio-mine (You can add in a few banshees, ravens, tanks or what-not, but the core of the army always needs to be bio-mine.), to beat lingblingmuta.
And you yourself agreed that lingblingmuta is the ''best'' composition even though most of that specific comp CAN be destroyed by widowmines? Doesn't that mean that the widowmines AREN'T the threat to change your build against?
Splitting banelings into 2 groups? Oh geez, it's not like the terran needs to split the mines individually, split the bio army into more than 6-7 groups. Muta magicboxing is only done at the highest skill level, and it's almost never done in ZvT.
Zerg creep spread is MACRO fyi. Kinda sad seeing you call ''zerg burrow to deny expo is micro'', ''Fungals are micro'' '' or ''burrow baneling is micro''.. Those things don't even deserve to be called micro..
Flanking is pretty much the same as controlling 2 groups and sending them to attack. Sure it requires good positioning and planning, I'll give you that, but the profit from the flanking is far higher than it should be. The terran army just dies with a good baneling flank. 10 banelings from the back can kill a 70 supply worth of terran units if he didn't maintain a good split (And the terran still needs to kill the banelings rolling in from the front.).
And banelings controlled by an ''A+Move'' isn't the same as an ''automatic shot''? Microing mines to burrow them apart from each other is pretty much the same as making 2 groups of banelings to attack from different sides (I'd even say that it takes more time to split up mines than to split up the banelings.)
So let me pull this together. Mines are situational units with 0 mobility (unless you get the upgrade.). They can be killed cost effectively by every race if they have vision and the correct units (For example swarmhosts, mutas, hydras, roaches, banelings, queens, ultras, infestors, etc.). They have a huge cd after each shot, so they're the same as an baneling (As in 1 shot per engagement.), and their AoE is smaller than a baneling. + they also have friendly fire on, and there have been a TON of cases where the friendly fire has done far more damage to the terran army, than the zerg. + Like the baneling, the mines can die before exploding on the enemies.
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EPT
