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I'd like to see a buff to thors vs mutas as well as the buff to tank attack speed.
I'd also like to see a nerf to blinding cloud vs tank. It seems to me that tanks are kind of rubbish now in TvZ not because mutas kill them, they have always done that, but because there is a clock on them. Once vipers are out, they are next to useless.
if widow mines are not nerfed no other composition makes sense vs zerg. They are too cost efficient. the nerf kind of sucks because TvZ is pretty awesome to watch atm, but at the same time it's silly that mmmm works vs everything.
DT speed buff is bad imho. Sure it grants some extra micro potential for the DT, but I really don't see that as necessary or beneficial at any level.
Oracle cost reduction will only make opening oracle better. Their stated intention of making them better 'late game' I can't see working because they just die to anything with upgrades. They are too flimsy to work at a stage where every race puts a static anti-air in place. Observers just make more sense supply wise for keeping track of the enemy.
terran combined upgrades might make a difference i think, and possibly bring back hellbat play into PvT (which should never have been abandoned in my opinion). It may also just make bio rubbish in TvT since the sky terran transition from mech is so much more powerful than from bio. *shrug*
burrowed roach buff might be a strong buff vs protoss sentry based all ins? maybe burrowed roach run-bys in the mid game when sacking roaches? i dunno.
anyway, just my thoughts
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I hope they don't forget carriers and bc's . THor must go in LotV replace it with something more mobile
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On September 24 2013 20:59 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 20:24 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 20:23 Boonbag wrote:On September 24 2013 20:12 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 19:28 Destructicon wrote:On September 24 2013 19:11 Cascade wrote:On September 24 2013 18:57 Liquid`Ret wrote:
How hard is it really, with 10+ years of experience in Korea in progaming, to get Proper, educated opinions from coaches/players/team representives/team houses and make some REAL changes?
Focus on Korea where the skill is higest and fix the game.. or at least try to communicate, try to make things better. I don't have a source, but I remember that someone said that the feedback from pros were close to useless, as it almost exclusively was "buff my race, nerf the other races". Blizzard want to make the game more spectator (and player...) friendly, the pros and teams want to win, and those two can be conflicting. Do you think that could be an issue? Nonetheless, thanks for posting! <3 I seriously doubt that's the case, if you listened to the last episode of meta you'd have noticed they had a great, long discussion about the design of both zerg and protoss and fleshed out a lot of issues without coming of as whiny or asking for buffs. If you also talk to casters and/or coaches you'd probably get an even more balanced and just as deep point of view. Yes of course when talking to pro gamers that play such distinctly different races its impossible to completely remove bias, but I seriously doubt that all pros are so biased that its impossible to gain any good relevant information from them, and their experience and knowledge is orders of magnitude more valuable then other people's knowledge because the players actually play the game on the highest level. The report was from DK on state of the game and he said that he did not get good feed back from the majority of pros, but not all. I am sure there are a select group of pros that provide good feed back and don't spend a lot of their time bashing Blizzard. DK stated they also talk to people who have a broad knowledge of all the match ups, like Artosis and Apollo. On September 24 2013 20:10 aka_star wrote:
I'm still waiting for the death ball fix :-/ That might be a longer term process then you think. Players natural put all their units in one place and a single balance patch won't fix that. somehow what you said about artosis and apollo and blizzard actually worries me the most There is no one better in the community to report on the things the highest level pros are dealing with than Artosis. The man watches more starcraft 2 than any other human on the planet. I would be more worried if they weren't talking to Artosis at all. That might be true, but it also might not be true. Sometimes you can "see the light" better as an outsider who isnt connected to anything concerned. Progamers are actually the people who have the least problems with the game design, because they are training very hard every day. It is the casuals who are affected worst by the design of SC2, because it has been designed as an eSport and not a "fun game". Maps like BGH or any other FFA 8-player maps are impossible to play for fun, because it is far too easy to overrun someones base who has just gone to kill someone else; that wasnt as easy in BW and defending with a few units was possible. So asking first and foremost for the opinions of progamers might be the wrong way to start designing the game. Design it for FUN and then add elements into it that makes it interesting to watch as an eSport. BW had that, but is usually described as an undesirable game (by "damning" any BW:HD remake as a starting point for SC2) by people who havent played it because of two reasons: a) it is an OLD game (and new is automatically better in their mindset) and b) they are far too lazy to be bothered with a 12-unit-selection limit (because they have trained to be lazy). I really think that you need to try and look at your work from an objective and outside perspective every once in a while. Ask yourself tough questions about "does X make sense?" or "will this really improve things?" ... and answer them honestly. Game designers and other decision makers (politicians and managers) should do this, but seldom actually do. Personally I think Artosis is "too involved" to have a clear look at the game and its problems. He seems to think that the game can be fixed without a change to the general mechanics ... which clearly isnt possible.
Blizzard has a very admirable method of having people of different departments that aren't directly involved with creating the design of the game playtest the game and give feedback. (as far as I know) I think an entire building full of game designers should be able to give good surface level criticism. That's limited though, and I think that there is a lot of value in criticism from pro gamers. Who cares if they're too involved and not objective? Part of being a game designer should be that you can take viewpoints like those and extract useful information out of it.
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On September 24 2013 20:54 BurningRanger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 20:43 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 19:48 Destructicon wrote:On September 24 2013 19:35 Skiblet wrote:
Can everyone stop crying about protoss buffs for GOD SAKES. They all say protoss cheese is too strong and this makes it even worse. Ok what about if a protoss isn't on point for 2 seconds he can lose all his probes to a widow mine drop that isn't much of an investment? Anyways I won't try to understand the mind of gold league players.
These changes all seem fantastic to me and I believe they will all encourage different play styles and more aggression, can't wait to test them out. 10/10 would buff. Erm, no, because these changes are actually terrible, they don't actually fix most of the issues related to protoss harass in the mid and late game, they just help early game cheeses. The oracle cost change make them more affordable early game when resources are limited and thus also helps the protoss have more units for a more devastating follow up. DT speed is horrible because it makes cheeses even stronger, the standard DT drop timing hits at a time when the terran doesn't have stim, which makes it even harder to deal with them even if you have turrets.Lets not even talk about the fact that DTs, a unit that can 1 shot workers actually move faster then them, I fail to see how you can't have enough common sense to see that that is a bad idea. And WM drops are actually a huge investment. If you go economic 1/1/1 you delay stim, tech and some economy to be able to do damage, and you actually have to do damage to stay on par because of your investments. You also have all the tools needed to deal with it, you have MSC to overcharge nexuses and kill/zone out the medivacs and the mines, and you should have either a Robo for observers or a forge for cannons to detect and destroy mines. If you took damage from WM you got outplayed and you deserve to take that damage. From your post its clear you don't fully understand the TvP MU and you are biased in favor of Protoss. If you wouldn't be you'd have the lucidity to see how poorly thought out these changes are. Why do you assume stim timing is that important? Maybe after mech buff terran will get raven sooner to counter dt drops. I think you're having tunnel vision, like if Blizzard buffed dt speed and thats it. Everything might change around, its too early to call something broken. If its just your opinion then state it like your opinion, not like a blunt fact. The point with Stim is that it's the best thing to have against DTs when playing Bio, because it makes Bio faster (so it can actually catch up) and makes it powerfull enough to take out a DT instead of being cut to pieces. Getting early Ravens blindly when playing Mech, makes you vulnerable to any other cheese, because it's very costly gas wise so you can't have anything else gas dependent and the Raven itself doesn't do all to much damage. Starting to tech to Raven after you scout a DT shrine can be too late.
You don't have to Kill the DT, pushing it out is pretty enough. Therefore stim is not that important.
Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 20:43 saddaromma wrote:
faster dts, are manageable since you can place turrets smarter, build raven, build couple of marauders with concussive shells. Turret+widow mine still owns dts. A turret can be wiped by a single DT in ~10 seconds. A Turret+a widowmine owns 1 DT in 40 seconds. The rest of the DT drop will cuddle the workers while the Mine is reloading.
Trading dt (125/100) for 40 sec cooldown shot is obviously win for terran. If protoss brings another dt just scan and kill it with some little force, if it runs away widow mine will be ready when its back. If protoss can afford endless amount of dts, then I assume terran is doing something terribly wrong.
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On September 24 2013 21:14 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 20:54 BurningRanger wrote:On September 24 2013 20:43 saddaromma wrote:On September 24 2013 19:48 Destructicon wrote:On September 24 2013 19:35 Skiblet wrote:
Can everyone stop crying about protoss buffs for GOD SAKES. They all say protoss cheese is too strong and this makes it even worse. Ok what about if a protoss isn't on point for 2 seconds he can lose all his probes to a widow mine drop that isn't much of an investment? Anyways I won't try to understand the mind of gold league players.
These changes all seem fantastic to me and I believe they will all encourage different play styles and more aggression, can't wait to test them out. 10/10 would buff. Erm, no, because these changes are actually terrible, they don't actually fix most of the issues related to protoss harass in the mid and late game, they just help early game cheeses. The oracle cost change make them more affordable early game when resources are limited and thus also helps the protoss have more units for a more devastating follow up. DT speed is horrible because it makes cheeses even stronger, the standard DT drop timing hits at a time when the terran doesn't have stim, which makes it even harder to deal with them even if you have turrets.Lets not even talk about the fact that DTs, a unit that can 1 shot workers actually move faster then them, I fail to see how you can't have enough common sense to see that that is a bad idea. And WM drops are actually a huge investment. If you go economic 1/1/1 you delay stim, tech and some economy to be able to do damage, and you actually have to do damage to stay on par because of your investments. You also have all the tools needed to deal with it, you have MSC to overcharge nexuses and kill/zone out the medivacs and the mines, and you should have either a Robo for observers or a forge for cannons to detect and destroy mines. If you took damage from WM you got outplayed and you deserve to take that damage. From your post its clear you don't fully understand the TvP MU and you are biased in favor of Protoss. If you wouldn't be you'd have the lucidity to see how poorly thought out these changes are. Why do you assume stim timing is that important? Maybe after mech buff terran will get raven sooner to counter dt drops. I think you're having tunnel vision, like if Blizzard buffed dt speed and thats it. Everything might change around, its too early to call something broken. If its just your opinion then state it like your opinion, not like a blunt fact. The point with Stim is that it's the best thing to have against DTs when playing Bio, because it makes Bio faster (so it can actually catch up) and makes it powerfull enough to take out a DT instead of being cut to pieces. Getting early Ravens blindly when playing Mech, makes you vulnerable to any other cheese, because it's very costly gas wise so you can't have anything else gas dependent and the Raven itself doesn't do all to much damage. Starting to tech to Raven after you scout a DT shrine can be too late. You don't have to Kill the DT, pushing it out is pretty enough. Therefore stim is not that important. Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 20:43 saddaromma wrote:
faster dts, are manageable since you can place turrets smarter, build raven, build couple of marauders with concussive shells. Turret+widow mine still owns dts. A turret can be wiped by a single DT in ~10 seconds. A Turret+a widowmine owns 1 DT in 40 seconds. The rest of the DT drop will cuddle the workers while the Mine is reloading. Trading dt (125/100) for 40 sec cooldown shot is obviously win for terran. If protoss brings another dt just scan and kill it with some little force, if it runs away widow mine will be ready when its back. If protoss can afford endless amount of dts, then I assume terran is doing something terribly wrong.
dt is 125/125
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David Kim i think that us shuld give dt teleport ability!! Or 10.0 speed!!
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On September 24 2013 18:47 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 18:44 Grumbels wrote:
I do wonder how people can applaud Blizzard for buffing units instead of nerfing them, as this super awesome balance philosophy, while completely overlooking that this patch, which has a barely noticeable buff to siege tanks, also completely breaks the widow mine. It's just so dumb, it hurts my brain every time someone says "buff, not nerf". Buffs to units increase their potential that good players can use, nerfs destroy potential. Buffing is the right approach in my opinion. Obviously you are free to have another one, but I believe it increases skill ceiling if there is more potential to do stuff that good players will always find a way to shine
Unit design is only meaningful in context of all the other elements of the game. For simplicity's sake, let's say that everything that happens frequently together constitutes the framework of the game. In that case you can give minor buffs to underused units, since you're only messing with edge cases, but at some point a buff will be meaningful enough to make the unit adequately powerful to change the framework of the game. This has an effect on all other units, and one thing that you could analyze is if the unit is more or less powerful in this new world; that is to say, every significant buff has the potential to effectively nerf other units, and every insignificant buff is maybe not worth talking about.
And obviously, applying "buff, not nerf!" liberally just leads to power creep.
I think what's actually the case is that:
1. there is a psychological effect where people simply dislike nerfs and don't want to see them
2. buff, not nerf, if applied (inconsistently) as a basis for gameplay changes, might sometimes lead to good results. With the power of confirmation bias it's easy to find evidence for this in retrospect.
3. it's a slogan and people like slogans
4. there is a legitimate desire to see interesting, powerful units, instead of watered down ones, and this is confused with the buff-not-nerf methodology. Not to mention that units in SC2 are generally lackluster and watered down.
And well, did you cheer for the infestor&queen buffs in 2011/2012? Yay buffs? The infestor made other units weaker, it didn't allow you to micro and it was generally unfun to play against. A good example of why not to listen to community slogans.
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Wow, I'm liking all of these changes barring the dt one (seriously, WHAT?)
It seems blizzard has been listening to the community for once.
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The easiest way to make oracles work in late game is to trade it's hp for more shields, that way it wont be a one off unit and can actually harass/cast revelation multiple times, cost reduction simply encourages early game timings and all ins.
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The suggested siege tank buff isn't even a buff, it's a non event. They should try something they know will actually get siege tanks out into the field, even if it seems bad on the surface. Increase siege range, or drastically buff tanks in tank mode, or drastically lower the siege/unsiege times. They can increase the firing speed all they want, it doesn't help much vs. mutas or immortals!
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On September 24 2013 21:22 Grumbels wrote:
3. it's a slogan and people like slogans
It's a stupid over simplification. At best you might say 'can we buff something to fix this situation without screwing everything else up? no, ok, what is the smallest nerf we can apply to fix it?'
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Thank god they recognize that tanks need some love. The Siege Mines were a bit too universal in that role.
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Let blingspeed and mutaregen be Hivelevel upgrades, and I take the mine nerf.
I would much prefer another way, but at least mines force zergs to micro. Some of them even enjoy picking off mines with mutaballs after the overseer buff.
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On September 24 2013 21:24 uh-oh wrote:
The easiest way to make oracles work in late game is to trade it's hp for more shields, that way it wont be a one off unit and can actually harass/cast revelation multiple times, cost reduction simply encourages early game timings and all ins.
it's 'harass' is completely nullified by a turret or 2?3? marines (combat shield, 3/3)
vs spores? or cannons?
the only late game use for an oracle is revelation. you're better off with 2 observers for supply cost.
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On September 24 2013 20:59 Kharnage wrote:
I'd like to see a buff to thors vs mutas as well as the buff to tank attack speed.
I'd also like to see a nerf to blinding cloud vs tank. It seems to me that tanks are kind of rubbish now in TvZ not because mutas kill them, they have always done that, but because there is a clock on them. Once vipers are out, they are next to useless.
if widow mines are not nerfed no other composition makes sense vs zerg. They are too cost efficient. the nerf kind of sucks because TvZ is pretty awesome to watch atm, but at the same time it's silly that mmmm works vs everything.
DT speed buff is bad imho. Sure it grants some extra micro potential for the DT, but I really don't see that as necessary or beneficial at any level.
Oracle cost reduction will only make opening oracle better. Their stated intention of making them better 'late game' I can't see working because they just die to anything with upgrades. They are too flimsy to work at a stage where every race puts a static anti-air in place. Observers just make more sense supply wise for keeping track of the enemy.
terran combined upgrades might make a difference i think, and possibly bring back hellbat play into PvT (which should never have been abandoned in my opinion). It may also just make bio rubbish in TvT since the sky terran transition from mech is so much more powerful than from bio. *shrug*
burrowed roach buff might be a strong buff vs protoss sentry based all ins? maybe burrowed roach run-bys in the mid game when sacking roaches? i dunno.
anyway, just my thoughts
So basicly, buff all terran stuff and fuck the other races. This post doesn't seem biased at all!
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It will be interesting to see how the mine/tank changes effect TvZ. It seems like a lot of games somewhat abruptly end when 2 widow mines hit huge connections and the game is just over. Hopefully the smaller radius will mitigate that a bit and make it a bit more interesting.
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On September 24 2013 21:33 Uni1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 20:59 Kharnage wrote:
I'd like to see a buff to thors vs mutas as well as the buff to tank attack speed.
I'd also like to see a nerf to blinding cloud vs tank. It seems to me that tanks are kind of rubbish now in TvZ not because mutas kill them, they have always done that, but because there is a clock on them. Once vipers are out, they are next to useless.
if widow mines are not nerfed no other composition makes sense vs zerg. They are too cost efficient. the nerf kind of sucks because TvZ is pretty awesome to watch atm, but at the same time it's silly that mmmm works vs everything.
DT speed buff is bad imho. Sure it grants some extra micro potential for the DT, but I really don't see that as necessary or beneficial at any level.
Oracle cost reduction will only make opening oracle better. Their stated intention of making them better 'late game' I can't see working because they just die to anything with upgrades. They are too flimsy to work at a stage where every race puts a static anti-air in place. Observers just make more sense supply wise for keeping track of the enemy.
terran combined upgrades might make a difference i think, and possibly bring back hellbat play into PvT (which should never have been abandoned in my opinion). It may also just make bio rubbish in TvT since the sky terran transition from mech is so much more powerful than from bio. *shrug*
burrowed roach buff might be a strong buff vs protoss sentry based all ins? maybe burrowed roach run-bys in the mid game when sacking roaches? i dunno.
anyway, just my thoughts So basicly, buff all terran stuff and fuck the other races. This post doesn't seem biased at all!
you mean apart from the mine nerf?
little tweaks to protoss can't fix the problems with protoss. Meta summed it up perfectly. DT speed? Oracle cost reduction? Fixes nothing. Increases variance instead of reducing. Bad.
zerg have been buffed to deal with the mine (muta speed / regen. seer speed). if you nerf the mine either zerg need nerfing to match, or terran strengthened. I think the thor buff would make sense. Thors used to be the response to mass muta.
Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers?
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On September 24 2013 21:14 saddaromma wrote:Trading dt (125/125) for 40 sec cooldown shot is obviously win for terran. If protoss brings another dt just scan and kill it with some little force, if it runs away widow mine will be ready when its back. If protoss can afford endless amount of dts, then I assume terran is doing something terribly wrong.
I'm especially talking about early DT drops here. Imagine 3-4 DTs dropped into the Terran main, while he has a turret and a mine in the mineral line. The rest of the units are usually at the natural to defend any frontal aggression. The DTs run into the mineral line, 1 gets killed by the mine, the other 2-3 then wipe the workers, if the Terran doesn't pull them immediately, and/or take the turret down in a few seconds. When the units from the natural arrive at the main mineral line, the turret is down and he has to scan which costs a mule=270 minerals (if he does have a scan available). If the Protoss is smart enough, he'll split the DTs as soon as the SCVs were pulled away, wrecking havoc in the base. In that case the Terran needs another 1 or 2 scans (if he does have that many saved up).
This is the situation without the buff. Now imagine the DTs move quite a bit faster than SCVs. SCVs pulled away immediately? Still getting cut down while running. The Terran units from the natural run in? Split DTs and start running circles through the main damaging buildings. Terran scans when he gets close to a DT finally and crosses fingers that the DT doesn't get to speed out of scan range, where he'd need to burn another scan (again 270 minerals, if he happens to have one saved).
You're talking about trading a mineshot for a 125/125 unit being effective. I'm talking about trading 3-4 125/125 units for roughly 1300 minerals (1 turret, ~4 scans, ~4 SCVs), lost mining time and a bunch of buildings that need to be repaired or even rebuilt which may include gas costs.
Edit: corrected DT prize
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Russian Federation262 Posts
On September 24 2013 21:42 Kharnage wrote:
Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers?
Buffed vikings with upgrades will make sense.
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On September 24 2013 21:49 wishr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 21:42 Kharnage wrote:
Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers? Buffed vikings with upgrades will make sense.
But how will that effect PvT?
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EPT
