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On September 24 2013 21:52 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 21:49 wishr wrote:On September 24 2013 21:42 Kharnage wrote:
Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers? Buffed vikings with upgrades will make sense. But how will that effect PvT?
Not at all, people don't mech in TvP.
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On September 24 2013 21:55 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 21:52 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:49 wishr wrote:On September 24 2013 21:42 Kharnage wrote:
Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers? Buffed vikings with upgrades will make sense. But how will that effect PvT? Not at all, people don't mech in TvP.
Vikings vs Colossus. It's a key part of the match up.
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On September 24 2013 21:42 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 21:33 Uni1987 wrote:On September 24 2013 20:59 Kharnage wrote:
I'd like to see a buff to thors vs mutas as well as the buff to tank attack speed.
I'd also like to see a nerf to blinding cloud vs tank. It seems to me that tanks are kind of rubbish now in TvZ not because mutas kill them, they have always done that, but because there is a clock on them. Once vipers are out, they are next to useless.
if widow mines are not nerfed no other composition makes sense vs zerg. They are too cost efficient. the nerf kind of sucks because TvZ is pretty awesome to watch atm, but at the same time it's silly that mmmm works vs everything.
DT speed buff is bad imho. Sure it grants some extra micro potential for the DT, but I really don't see that as necessary or beneficial at any level.
Oracle cost reduction will only make opening oracle better. Their stated intention of making them better 'late game' I can't see working because they just die to anything with upgrades. They are too flimsy to work at a stage where every race puts a static anti-air in place. Observers just make more sense supply wise for keeping track of the enemy.
terran combined upgrades might make a difference i think, and possibly bring back hellbat play into PvT (which should never have been abandoned in my opinion). It may also just make bio rubbish in TvT since the sky terran transition from mech is so much more powerful than from bio. *shrug*
burrowed roach buff might be a strong buff vs protoss sentry based all ins? maybe burrowed roach run-bys in the mid game when sacking roaches? i dunno.
anyway, just my thoughts So basicly, buff all terran stuff and fuck the other races. This post doesn't seem biased at all! you mean apart from the mine nerf? little tweaks to protoss can't fix the problems with protoss. Meta summed it up perfectly. DT speed? Oracle cost reduction? Fixes nothing. Increases variance instead of reducing. Bad. zerg have been buffed to deal with the mine (muta speed / regen. seer speed). if you nerf the mine either zerg need nerfing to match, or terran strengthened. I think the thor buff would make sense. Thors used to be the response to mass muta. Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers?
I actually think the main reason is mutas. Mutas are so damn good, the 4M tactic deals with this by constantly attacking, which forces those mutas to directly fight marines. Siege tanks are not suitable for the constant rallying to the front tactic. So then you are automatically constant on the backfoot trying to defend mutas while the zerg happily expands and takes out all your attempts at dropping.
In case of full mech swarmhosts are also really hard to deal with. Bio-mech has an easier time, because it is more like 4M.
And then we got ultras, which rampage through any kind of meatshield for the tanks in a fraction of the time it would cost them in WoL.
Of course vipers are also an extremely effective counter to tanks, which after the mid-game are probably enough to single-handedly make tanks unviable, but they are definately not the only reason.
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Honestly I think we shouldn't mince words here Just DT speed? Comon why stop there we should just give them 16 range 2 casting abilites ( Blink, and Psi Storm) 600 HP and does 400 dmg .......... THey should just finish the warcraft 3 Hero they are trying to make..... ( obviously this is all sarcastic)
Giving DTs speed upgrade is very bad in TvP it will make an already viable unit into the ultimate map control unit regardless of the point in the game.... but in PvZ every game will be opened with Dts and every game will be won by protoss whether or not they have to get back into the game or need to grab 3 bases or just get map control.... As a matter of fact with speed like that I can see games won with ONLY using DTs and not making a single other unit other than the MSC.
I agree with other buffs the only nerf I don't see working is the Mine Nerf.... its an EXTREME nerf...... I think this balance of nerfing the AOE is good but not like i can kill 40 lings in 1 shot before and now only being able to kill 3 a good nerf.....
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roach speed underground is only ok if the healing slows down, if not it's bad... I miss my siege tanks, and I thk it's a good move for the mech, however, NO ONE will use the mines anymore as it's practically useless at 1.1, which is ok for me as I will Juz build tanks and hellbats.. they will buff the mines again 1 day, lower league players will also have a higher winning rate against Terran as they do not hav to split much anymore...dt really shouldn't increase their speed, however trying to put the oracle in late game is a good idea worth a try... as terran I will most likely go back to my WOL style bio tank Viking medivac, thors will be abandoned definitely..
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On September 24 2013 21:56 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 21:55 Antylamon wrote:On September 24 2013 21:52 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:49 wishr wrote:On September 24 2013 21:42 Kharnage wrote:
Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers? Buffed vikings with upgrades will make sense. But how will that effect PvT? Not at all, people don't mech in TvP. Vikings vs Colossus. It's a key part of the match up.
But what does that have to do with mech upgrades? In TvP you now upgrade air weapons. After patch you would upgrade vehicle weapons. Considering you don't make mech units that shouldn't have an effect on the game. Yeah maybe people start mixing in a bit more hellbats, but nothing I would worry about regarding balance.
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On September 24 2013 21:56 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 21:55 Antylamon wrote:On September 24 2013 21:52 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:49 wishr wrote:On September 24 2013 21:42 Kharnage wrote:
Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers? Buffed vikings with upgrades will make sense. But how will that effect PvT? Not at all, people don't mech in TvP. Vikings vs Colossus. It's a key part of the match up.
Yeah, but the buff is combining mech and air upgrades.
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On September 24 2013 21:42 Kharnage wrote:
Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers?
Yeah, me. Tankbased Mech is not seen because of Vipers (amongst other weaknesses). For bio/tank I believe that we at least have no evidence, nor do I think that Vipers are a problem - while mass mutas and broodlords really have been proven to be strong against that playstyle.
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Russian Federation262 Posts
On September 24 2013 21:52 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 21:49 wishr wrote:On September 24 2013 21:42 Kharnage wrote:
Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers? Buffed vikings with upgrades will make sense. But how will that effect PvT?
Are vipers P unit? xD U have been asking about Tanks and Vipers as i read.
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On September 24 2013 21:56 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 21:42 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:33 Uni1987 wrote:On September 24 2013 20:59 Kharnage wrote:
I'd like to see a buff to thors vs mutas as well as the buff to tank attack speed.
I'd also like to see a nerf to blinding cloud vs tank. It seems to me that tanks are kind of rubbish now in TvZ not because mutas kill them, they have always done that, but because there is a clock on them. Once vipers are out, they are next to useless.
if widow mines are not nerfed no other composition makes sense vs zerg. They are too cost efficient. the nerf kind of sucks because TvZ is pretty awesome to watch atm, but at the same time it's silly that mmmm works vs everything.
DT speed buff is bad imho. Sure it grants some extra micro potential for the DT, but I really don't see that as necessary or beneficial at any level.
Oracle cost reduction will only make opening oracle better. Their stated intention of making them better 'late game' I can't see working because they just die to anything with upgrades. They are too flimsy to work at a stage where every race puts a static anti-air in place. Observers just make more sense supply wise for keeping track of the enemy.
terran combined upgrades might make a difference i think, and possibly bring back hellbat play into PvT (which should never have been abandoned in my opinion). It may also just make bio rubbish in TvT since the sky terran transition from mech is so much more powerful than from bio. *shrug*
burrowed roach buff might be a strong buff vs protoss sentry based all ins? maybe burrowed roach run-bys in the mid game when sacking roaches? i dunno.
anyway, just my thoughts So basicly, buff all terran stuff and fuck the other races. This post doesn't seem biased at all! you mean apart from the mine nerf? little tweaks to protoss can't fix the problems with protoss. Meta summed it up perfectly. DT speed? Oracle cost reduction? Fixes nothing. Increases variance instead of reducing. Bad. zerg have been buffed to deal with the mine (muta speed / regen. seer speed). if you nerf the mine either zerg need nerfing to match, or terran strengthened. I think the thor buff would make sense. Thors used to be the response to mass muta. Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers? I actually think the main reason is mutas. Mutas are so damn good, the 4M tactic deals with this by constantly attacking, which forces those mutas to directly fight marines. Siege tanks are not suitable for the constant rallying to the front tactic. So then you are automatically constant on the backfoot trying to defend mutas while the zerg happily expands and takes out all your attempts at dropping. In case of full mech swarmhosts are also really hard to deal with. Bio-mech has an easier time, because it is more like 4M. And then we got ultras, which rampage through any kind of meatshield for the tanks in a fraction of the time it would cost them in WoL. Of course vipers are also an extremely effective counter to tanks, which after the mid-game are probably enough to single-handedly make tanks unviable, but they are definately not the only reason.
Hence my suggestion of a buff to thor vs muta.
When I think about it, tank fire rate is probably to deal with swarm host more efficiently.
But regardless, 4 vipers on the field and the entire tank line is rubbish. It's a 'no matter what tech path zerg choose, they can get 4 vipers' sort of thing.
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On September 24 2013 12:43 MrLightning wrote:They do. Its called a banshee.
I sure as shit wish my banshees spawned with free permacloak and killed workers in one hit.
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On September 24 2013 21:57 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 21:56 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:55 Antylamon wrote:On September 24 2013 21:52 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:49 wishr wrote:On September 24 2013 21:42 Kharnage wrote:
Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers? Buffed vikings with upgrades will make sense. But how will that effect PvT? Not at all, people don't mech in TvP. Vikings vs Colossus. It's a key part of the match up. But what does that have to do with mech upgrades? In TvP you now upgrade air weapons. After patch you would upgrade vehicle weapons. Considering you don't make mech units that shouldn't have an effect on the game. Yeah maybe people start mixing in a bit more hellbats, but nothing I would worry about regarding balance.
Sorry, I thought Buffed vikings with upgrades will make sense. was suggesting buffing vikings specifically to help deal with vipers and that that would have a negative effect on PvT.
Combining mech upgrades won't do shit for vikings vs viper. Vipers have way too much HP to care. they will ALWAYS land a blinding cloud. Maybe die afterwards, but it's impossible to stop.
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On September 24 2013 22:00 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 21:56 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 21:42 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:33 Uni1987 wrote:On September 24 2013 20:59 Kharnage wrote:
I'd like to see a buff to thors vs mutas as well as the buff to tank attack speed.
I'd also like to see a nerf to blinding cloud vs tank. It seems to me that tanks are kind of rubbish now in TvZ not because mutas kill them, they have always done that, but because there is a clock on them. Once vipers are out, they are next to useless.
if widow mines are not nerfed no other composition makes sense vs zerg. They are too cost efficient. the nerf kind of sucks because TvZ is pretty awesome to watch atm, but at the same time it's silly that mmmm works vs everything.
DT speed buff is bad imho. Sure it grants some extra micro potential for the DT, but I really don't see that as necessary or beneficial at any level.
Oracle cost reduction will only make opening oracle better. Their stated intention of making them better 'late game' I can't see working because they just die to anything with upgrades. They are too flimsy to work at a stage where every race puts a static anti-air in place. Observers just make more sense supply wise for keeping track of the enemy.
terran combined upgrades might make a difference i think, and possibly bring back hellbat play into PvT (which should never have been abandoned in my opinion). It may also just make bio rubbish in TvT since the sky terran transition from mech is so much more powerful than from bio. *shrug*
burrowed roach buff might be a strong buff vs protoss sentry based all ins? maybe burrowed roach run-bys in the mid game when sacking roaches? i dunno.
anyway, just my thoughts So basicly, buff all terran stuff and fuck the other races. This post doesn't seem biased at all! you mean apart from the mine nerf? little tweaks to protoss can't fix the problems with protoss. Meta summed it up perfectly. DT speed? Oracle cost reduction? Fixes nothing. Increases variance instead of reducing. Bad. zerg have been buffed to deal with the mine (muta speed / regen. seer speed). if you nerf the mine either zerg need nerfing to match, or terran strengthened. I think the thor buff would make sense. Thors used to be the response to mass muta. Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers? I actually think the main reason is mutas. Mutas are so damn good, the 4M tactic deals with this by constantly attacking, which forces those mutas to directly fight marines. Siege tanks are not suitable for the constant rallying to the front tactic. So then you are automatically constant on the backfoot trying to defend mutas while the zerg happily expands and takes out all your attempts at dropping. In case of full mech swarmhosts are also really hard to deal with. Bio-mech has an easier time, because it is more like 4M. And then we got ultras, which rampage through any kind of meatshield for the tanks in a fraction of the time it would cost them in WoL. Of course vipers are also an extremely effective counter to tanks, which after the mid-game are probably enough to single-handedly make tanks unviable, but they are definately not the only reason. Hence my suggestion of a buff to thor vs muta. When I think about it, tank fire rate is probably to deal with swarm host more efficiently. But regardless, 4 vipers on the field and the entire tank line is rubbish. It's a 'no matter what tech path zerg choose, they can get 4 vipers' sort of thing.
That's why Science Vessels irradiate Defilers first. In SC2 the role of killing Vipers would probably go to Vikings, which are necessary to deal with Brood lords anyways.
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On September 24 2013 22:01 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 12:43 MrLightning wrote:On September 24 2013 12:39 Tayar wrote:
dts should be able to fly to They do. Its called a banshee. I sure as shit wish my banshees spawned with free permacloak and killed workers in one hit.
And could be warp-ed anywhere on the map and in bad situations could merge into BC. Oh, and did I mentioned being produced from barracks ?
This gold league level of comparing banshees to DTs is hilarious. There is a reason why DT play in PvT is almost considered as solid and very strong option while you can only see banshees in TvT (if you lose to 2 port banshee in silver league that does not make them good in TvP).
The low quality of these posts are just mind-boggling.
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On September 24 2013 22:09 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 22:00 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:56 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 21:42 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:33 Uni1987 wrote:On September 24 2013 20:59 Kharnage wrote:
I'd like to see a buff to thors vs mutas as well as the buff to tank attack speed.
I'd also like to see a nerf to blinding cloud vs tank. It seems to me that tanks are kind of rubbish now in TvZ not because mutas kill them, they have always done that, but because there is a clock on them. Once vipers are out, they are next to useless.
if widow mines are not nerfed no other composition makes sense vs zerg. They are too cost efficient. the nerf kind of sucks because TvZ is pretty awesome to watch atm, but at the same time it's silly that mmmm works vs everything.
DT speed buff is bad imho. Sure it grants some extra micro potential for the DT, but I really don't see that as necessary or beneficial at any level.
Oracle cost reduction will only make opening oracle better. Their stated intention of making them better 'late game' I can't see working because they just die to anything with upgrades. They are too flimsy to work at a stage where every race puts a static anti-air in place. Observers just make more sense supply wise for keeping track of the enemy.
terran combined upgrades might make a difference i think, and possibly bring back hellbat play into PvT (which should never have been abandoned in my opinion). It may also just make bio rubbish in TvT since the sky terran transition from mech is so much more powerful than from bio. *shrug*
burrowed roach buff might be a strong buff vs protoss sentry based all ins? maybe burrowed roach run-bys in the mid game when sacking roaches? i dunno.
anyway, just my thoughts So basicly, buff all terran stuff and fuck the other races. This post doesn't seem biased at all! you mean apart from the mine nerf? little tweaks to protoss can't fix the problems with protoss. Meta summed it up perfectly. DT speed? Oracle cost reduction? Fixes nothing. Increases variance instead of reducing. Bad. zerg have been buffed to deal with the mine (muta speed / regen. seer speed). if you nerf the mine either zerg need nerfing to match, or terran strengthened. I think the thor buff would make sense. Thors used to be the response to mass muta. Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers? I actually think the main reason is mutas. Mutas are so damn good, the 4M tactic deals with this by constantly attacking, which forces those mutas to directly fight marines. Siege tanks are not suitable for the constant rallying to the front tactic. So then you are automatically constant on the backfoot trying to defend mutas while the zerg happily expands and takes out all your attempts at dropping. In case of full mech swarmhosts are also really hard to deal with. Bio-mech has an easier time, because it is more like 4M. And then we got ultras, which rampage through any kind of meatshield for the tanks in a fraction of the time it would cost them in WoL. Of course vipers are also an extremely effective counter to tanks, which after the mid-game are probably enough to single-handedly make tanks unviable, but they are definately not the only reason. Hence my suggestion of a buff to thor vs muta. When I think about it, tank fire rate is probably to deal with swarm host more efficiently. But regardless, 4 vipers on the field and the entire tank line is rubbish. It's a 'no matter what tech path zerg choose, they can get 4 vipers' sort of thing. That's why Science Vessels irradiate Defilers first. In SC2 the role of killing Vipers would probably go to Vikings, which are necessary to deal with Brood lords anyways.
Problem is that as Kharnage said in previous post, it is pretty close to impossible to kill vipers before they land their blinding clouds, unless you have so many vikings you lost anyway.
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Russian Federation125 Posts
You should include the main poll at the start of this thread:
Poll: Do you think this patch nerfs terran or buffs them?Definetely it's a nerf for terrans >:) (108) 84% Nah it's pretty balanced (10) 8% No it's those buff each terran dreamed for :) (10) 8% 128 total votes Your vote: Do you think this patch nerfs terran or buffs them? (Vote): Definetely it's a nerf for terrans >:)
(Vote): Nah it's pretty balanced
(Vote): No it's those buff each terran dreamed for :)
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i don`t like that they kill widow mine, too big of a change - they should do something like reduce the visibility of widow mines, so they will get activate only when other terran units are there.
DT change is good, oracle can be good - but we will see more cheeses in this way.
roach speed burrowed has no point, seems random, will buff only all ins.
mech changes are good.
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On September 24 2013 22:11 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 22:09 Antylamon wrote:On September 24 2013 22:00 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:56 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 21:42 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:33 Uni1987 wrote:On September 24 2013 20:59 Kharnage wrote:
I'd like to see a buff to thors vs mutas as well as the buff to tank attack speed.
I'd also like to see a nerf to blinding cloud vs tank. It seems to me that tanks are kind of rubbish now in TvZ not because mutas kill them, they have always done that, but because there is a clock on them. Once vipers are out, they are next to useless.
if widow mines are not nerfed no other composition makes sense vs zerg. They are too cost efficient. the nerf kind of sucks because TvZ is pretty awesome to watch atm, but at the same time it's silly that mmmm works vs everything.
DT speed buff is bad imho. Sure it grants some extra micro potential for the DT, but I really don't see that as necessary or beneficial at any level.
Oracle cost reduction will only make opening oracle better. Their stated intention of making them better 'late game' I can't see working because they just die to anything with upgrades. They are too flimsy to work at a stage where every race puts a static anti-air in place. Observers just make more sense supply wise for keeping track of the enemy.
terran combined upgrades might make a difference i think, and possibly bring back hellbat play into PvT (which should never have been abandoned in my opinion). It may also just make bio rubbish in TvT since the sky terran transition from mech is so much more powerful than from bio. *shrug*
burrowed roach buff might be a strong buff vs protoss sentry based all ins? maybe burrowed roach run-bys in the mid game when sacking roaches? i dunno.
anyway, just my thoughts So basicly, buff all terran stuff and fuck the other races. This post doesn't seem biased at all! you mean apart from the mine nerf? little tweaks to protoss can't fix the problems with protoss. Meta summed it up perfectly. DT speed? Oracle cost reduction? Fixes nothing. Increases variance instead of reducing. Bad. zerg have been buffed to deal with the mine (muta speed / regen. seer speed). if you nerf the mine either zerg need nerfing to match, or terran strengthened. I think the thor buff would make sense. Thors used to be the response to mass muta. Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers? I actually think the main reason is mutas. Mutas are so damn good, the 4M tactic deals with this by constantly attacking, which forces those mutas to directly fight marines. Siege tanks are not suitable for the constant rallying to the front tactic. So then you are automatically constant on the backfoot trying to defend mutas while the zerg happily expands and takes out all your attempts at dropping. In case of full mech swarmhosts are also really hard to deal with. Bio-mech has an easier time, because it is more like 4M. And then we got ultras, which rampage through any kind of meatshield for the tanks in a fraction of the time it would cost them in WoL. Of course vipers are also an extremely effective counter to tanks, which after the mid-game are probably enough to single-handedly make tanks unviable, but they are definately not the only reason. Hence my suggestion of a buff to thor vs muta. When I think about it, tank fire rate is probably to deal with swarm host more efficiently. But regardless, 4 vipers on the field and the entire tank line is rubbish. It's a 'no matter what tech path zerg choose, they can get 4 vipers' sort of thing. That's why Science Vessels irradiate Defilers first. In SC2 the role of killing Vipers would probably go to Vikings, which are necessary to deal with Brood lords anyways. Problem is that as Kharnage said in previous post, it is pretty close to impossible to kill vipers before they land their blinding clouds, unless you have so many vikings you lost anyway.
6 to 1-shot a Viper. So 6 Vikings along with good Tank spread could probably do the trick. I'd have to test it to confirm, though.
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Do we see neural parasite that much? NEVER so please make that spell work while the infestor is burrowed like it was in the BETA of WoL
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On September 24 2013 22:13 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 22:11 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 22:09 Antylamon wrote:On September 24 2013 22:00 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:56 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 21:42 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2013 21:33 Uni1987 wrote:On September 24 2013 20:59 Kharnage wrote:
I'd like to see a buff to thors vs mutas as well as the buff to tank attack speed.
I'd also like to see a nerf to blinding cloud vs tank. It seems to me that tanks are kind of rubbish now in TvZ not because mutas kill them, they have always done that, but because there is a clock on them. Once vipers are out, they are next to useless.
if widow mines are not nerfed no other composition makes sense vs zerg. They are too cost efficient. the nerf kind of sucks because TvZ is pretty awesome to watch atm, but at the same time it's silly that mmmm works vs everything.
DT speed buff is bad imho. Sure it grants some extra micro potential for the DT, but I really don't see that as necessary or beneficial at any level.
Oracle cost reduction will only make opening oracle better. Their stated intention of making them better 'late game' I can't see working because they just die to anything with upgrades. They are too flimsy to work at a stage where every race puts a static anti-air in place. Observers just make more sense supply wise for keeping track of the enemy.
terran combined upgrades might make a difference i think, and possibly bring back hellbat play into PvT (which should never have been abandoned in my opinion). It may also just make bio rubbish in TvT since the sky terran transition from mech is so much more powerful than from bio. *shrug*
burrowed roach buff might be a strong buff vs protoss sentry based all ins? maybe burrowed roach run-bys in the mid game when sacking roaches? i dunno.
anyway, just my thoughts So basicly, buff all terran stuff and fuck the other races. This post doesn't seem biased at all! you mean apart from the mine nerf? little tweaks to protoss can't fix the problems with protoss. Meta summed it up perfectly. DT speed? Oracle cost reduction? Fixes nothing. Increases variance instead of reducing. Bad. zerg have been buffed to deal with the mine (muta speed / regen. seer speed). if you nerf the mine either zerg need nerfing to match, or terran strengthened. I think the thor buff would make sense. Thors used to be the response to mass muta. Does anyone disagree that tanks are not seen in TvZ because vipers? I actually think the main reason is mutas. Mutas are so damn good, the 4M tactic deals with this by constantly attacking, which forces those mutas to directly fight marines. Siege tanks are not suitable for the constant rallying to the front tactic. So then you are automatically constant on the backfoot trying to defend mutas while the zerg happily expands and takes out all your attempts at dropping. In case of full mech swarmhosts are also really hard to deal with. Bio-mech has an easier time, because it is more like 4M. And then we got ultras, which rampage through any kind of meatshield for the tanks in a fraction of the time it would cost them in WoL. Of course vipers are also an extremely effective counter to tanks, which after the mid-game are probably enough to single-handedly make tanks unviable, but they are definately not the only reason. Hence my suggestion of a buff to thor vs muta. When I think about it, tank fire rate is probably to deal with swarm host more efficiently. But regardless, 4 vipers on the field and the entire tank line is rubbish. It's a 'no matter what tech path zerg choose, they can get 4 vipers' sort of thing. That's why Science Vessels irradiate Defilers first. In SC2 the role of killing Vipers would probably go to Vikings, which are necessary to deal with Brood lords anyways. Problem is that as Kharnage said in previous post, it is pretty close to impossible to kill vipers before they land their blinding clouds, unless you have so many vikings you lost anyway. 6 to 1-shot a Viper. So 6 Vikings along with good Tank spread could probably do the trick. I'd have to test it to confirm, though.
Viking range matches viper cast range. missiles have 'projectile time' making the cloud ALWAYS land first. All 6 vikings would have to be perfectly positioned to stop 1 viper. If 4 vipers with max energy, that's still 6 blinding clouds unless you have 24 perfectly positioned vikings.
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EPT
