EPT6 possible balance changes - David Kim - Page 53
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On September 24 2013 22:47 Grumbels wrote: The tank now has a dps increase anywhere from 0% to 100%, by the way. It's not at all obvious how strong the change will be. If there is a situation where a tank would only get off one shot, but now they can get off two shots, then it's a 100% damage increase in that specific scenario. Or if it can't get off another shot it will be a 0% increase. And it's not so simple to say that "on average" the damage increase will be ~11%, because there are only a limited number of scenarios where the fire rate of the siege tank really matters, too few for statistical analysis to be useful maybe, so the best way to know how strong this change is would be to play the balance map and see how the new siege tank fares. That is a reasonable assumption, I can't wait to test those changes.. I also think merged air/mech upgrades are going to have bigger impact then most people here believe it would. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 24 2013 22:41 BronzeKnee wrote: Why the sudden change David Kim? I've been saying the Widow Mine is a terrible unit to watch and the Siege Tank is awesome since... HOTS Beta.... and just now you realize this, that Terran "may be more interesting..." I thought Siege Tanks was, in your own words, boring? I guess better late than never... too bad I stop watching and play SC2. Gives me hope for a return to SC2. On another note, the Oracle change can't go through. Two base Oracle all-ins are already very strong versus Terran (Hero vs Select at MLG) and this makes them even stronger. Its not sudden though, they are being tested for after Blizzcon. Its is to spice of gameplay for next season and maybe encourage some new styles. I would also like to see more interesting maps released at that time that will really shake stuff up. | ||
People_0f_Color
177 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 24 2013 22:49 Everlong wrote: That is a reasonable assumption, I can't wait to test those changes.. I also think merged air/mech upgrades are going to have bigger impact then most people here believe it would. It is removing like 500 gas and a ton of time from the upgrade path to 3/3 BCs. That is plenty of gas to set up infrastructure for a pretty hard switch to awesome. | ||
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dargul
Russian Federation125 Posts
On September 24 2013 22:47 Grumbels wrote: The tank now has a dps increase anywhere from 0% to 100%, by the way. It's not at all obvious how strong the change will be. If there is a situation where a tank would only get off one shot, but now they can get off two shots, then it's a 100% damage increase in that specific scenario. Or if it can't get off another shot it will be a 0% increase. And it's not so simple to say that "on average" the damage increase will be ~11%, because there are only a limited number of scenarios where the fire rate of the siege tank really matters, too few for statistical analysis to be useful maybe, so the best way to know how strong this change is would be to play the balance map and see how the new siege tank fares. Some people already wrote in this thread that it doesn't matter at all. They tried mass armies and solo tank with imm. In all the cases result with buff was the same as without it. Seriously against which unit those 0.3sec does matter at all? against queens without creep may be... If blizz want to buff tank they should decrease siedge time or build time to make tank armies less 1mistake - you lost all the game. Compare to widow mine - wm build fast borrow fast - it harder to catch you unsiedged and even if you lost all your army you will build more mine very fast to defend So far total majority of people agree that this is nerf for terran. Poll: Do you think this patch nerfs terran or buffs them? Definetely it's a nerf for terrans >:) (108) Nah it's pretty balanced (10) No it's those buff each terran dreamed for :) (10) 128 total votes Your vote: Do you think this patch nerfs terran or buffs them? (Vote): Definetely it's a nerf for terrans >:) | ||
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Fody03
Italy310 Posts
On September 24 2013 22:49 Everlong wrote: That is a reasonable assumption, I can't wait to test those changes.. I also think merged air/mech upgrades are going to have bigger impact then most people here believe it would. I agree. I was watching a 7-8 months old beta replay TvZ mech vs anything-zerg: 3/3 vikings easily owned any air composition,to the point it looked possibly op | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
On September 24 2013 22:50 People_0f_Color wrote: i guess it is fair that Zerg got a buffed overseer that helps deal with DTs. Although now, I don't see slow overseers ever having a chance at following a dt unless the controlling player screws up. But we might see more juking, which could be cool. If you want juking to be interesting I think the two units need to have equal speed, which they will have after the buff. Maybe it seems unfair though because the overseer needs an upgrade to get more speed, but the DT starts out with the higher speed. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 24 2013 22:51 Plansix wrote: It is removing like 500 gas and a ton of time from the upgrade path to 3/3 BCs. That is plenty of gas to set up infrastructure for a pretty hard switch to awesome. Well, the big question with this is probably whether it is a good change for game quality. Current Mech has troubles attacking anytime in the midgame against bio and Zerg and in general doing anything vs Protoss. This change encourages Mech to turtle even harder. Though it might be interesting in the sense that now you may really need to make something happen against Mech to not get rolled by a 200/200 3/3/3/3 20min moveout with transition option. It (combined with stronger tanks) may actually force people to treat Mech like Mech, instead of just a different deathball that you counter by having the right composition when it moves out. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 24 2013 22:55 Big J wrote: Well, the big question with this is probably whether it is a good change for game quality. Current Mech has troubles attacking anytime in the midgame against bio and Zerg and in general doing anything vs Protoss. This change encourages Mech to turtle even harder. Though it might be interesting in the sense that now you may really need to make something happen against Mech to not get rolled by a 200/200 3/3/3/3 20min moveout with transition option. It (combined with stronger tanks) may actually force people to treat Mech like Mech, instead of just a different deathball that you counter by having the right composition when it moves out. I think it is totally worth trying. Anything to get terrans off of Bio MMMMMMMMMMMMMM comps will be good for the game. They can buff other stuff if the match ups becomes to much of turtle fest. There are penty of things they can do to spice things up. The nydus still needs love and the carrier and tempest are not widely used and interesting units in small numbers. | ||
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gingerfluffmuff
Austria4570 Posts
On September 24 2013 22:17 Kharnage wrote: Viking range matches viper cast range. missiles have 'projectile time' making the cloud ALWAYS land first. All 6 vikings would have to be perfectly positioned to stop 1 viper. If 4 vipers with max energy, that's still 6 blinding clouds unless you have 24 perfectly positioned vikings. Imo the problem with vikings in growing numbers is the lost dmg due to the overshooting. Worst case with clumped vikings is only one dead viper per salvo.(even with unlimited vikings :D) | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
Widow mine change is great for ZvT, means less banelings die for free. Probably the best change here. Siege tank change is meh. Tanks will become more viable against Protoss, which I suppose is a good thing. Oracle change is silly. Proxy oracle/oracle busts will become so much stronger, and they're already pretty good. I don't think it was necessary. DT change is a bit pointless, but I like the thought process. However I can already see an observer without speed trying to chase down a DT in PvP... Roach change is a pretty good idea, burrow timings aren't seen enough and can be pretty effective. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On September 24 2013 22:47 Grumbels wrote: The tank now has a dps increase anywhere from 0% to 100%, by the way. It's not at all obvious how strong the change will be. If there is a situation where a tank would only get off one shot, but now they can get off two shots, then it's a 100% damage increase in that specific scenario. Or if it can't get off another shot it will be a 0% increase. And it's not so simple to say that "on average" the damage increase will be ~11%, because there are only a limited number of scenarios where the fire rate of the siege tank really matters, too few for statistical analysis to be useful maybe, so the best way to know how strong this change is would be to play the balance map and see how the new siege tank fares. Yeah, but even with the occasional situation where you get 1 extra shot off... Are they really scared the tank would become overpowered if they buffed it more than this? The unit a borderline joke, with so many hard counters that it really should pose a threat if you don't properly counter it. The mine nerf is huge but I'm fine with it, the biomine style is getting really stale. The tank buff is miniscule, no matter how you put it its not going to change the way tanks are utilized the way the mine nerf totally will. Unless Blizzard wants to drastically nerf terran with this patch, it just doesn't add up. Also I'm really hoping that if/when they readjust these numbers, they buff the tank instead of de-nerfing the mine. Worst case scenario seems to me that they play with these numbers for a while, give up on the tank and make the widow mine a very slightly nerfed version of its current form. Thus keeping the stale bio/mine metagame unchanged. | ||
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mikedebo
Canada4341 Posts
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
The DT buff is interesting. I like the idea of DTs being a unit that can benefit from skilled use, rather than just being a pure gamble entirely reliant on catching the opponent off guard, but I'm not entirely certain this will have the desired effect. Its something worth testing though. Really like the Tank buff and WM nerf, and combining the upgrades is a nice buff as well. Buffing Tunneling claws is something I've been wanting for a long time. Burrow micro is cool and fun to watch, but we almost never see much of it. | ||
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Leafty
France84 Posts
Apart from the orcale costs, the other changes are things to try. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
On September 24 2013 23:17 Leafty wrote: What if DT speed got increased with zealot speed? That way the unit is not too strong in the early game. I like that a lot. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
Yeah, but even with the occasional situation where you get 1 extra shot off... Are they really scared the tank would become overpowered if they buffed it more than this? The unit a borderline joke, with so many hard counters that it really should pose a threat if you don't properly counter it. The mine nerf is huge but I'm fine with it, the biomine style is getting really stale. The tank buff is miniscule, no matter how you put it its not going to change the way tanks are utilized the way the mine nerf totally will. Unless Blizzard wants to drastically nerf terran with this patch, it just doesn't add up. Also I'm really hoping that if/when they readjust these numbers, they buff the tank instead of de-nerfing the mine. Worst case scenario seems to me that they play with these numbers for a while, give up on the tank and make the widow mine a very slightly nerfed version of its current form. Thus keeping the stale bio/mine metagame unchanged. I think you're understimating the Tank buffs. In most situations, the cooldown reduction is a 10% DPS buff, which isn't miniscule...but then consider that the combined upgrades will likely make it significantly easier to commit to upgrading mech/air attack. Better upgrades + straight 10% damage buff is actually pretty significant. | ||
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
also, id like to see a slight nerf to rauders if they buff the tank, to really push terran off boring mmm in pvt. but since rauders never seem to get nerfed since beta days i guess it wont happen... also, a buff to BCs would be nice | ||
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