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WHAAAATT????? no mention of tvp? this matchup is just broken atm, only chance for terran to win is scv pull.
it's like wol pvz. Why the hell blizzard don't want to fix this matchup???
on top of that the protoss cheese gets even a buff! it's just so broken! don't understand why blizzard want to see more cheese.
the changes to the mine and the tank are a joke. the mine will be useless and the tank stays useless. bio won't be viable in tvt. the roach burrow buff and the combined upgrades are the only good changes. the rest is bullshit
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On September 25 2013 00:20 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 00:18 Big J wrote:On September 25 2013 00:07 freetgy wrote:On September 24 2013 23:59 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I think you're too perssimistic. Its not like counterattacking styles have never been viable in the SC2 metagame as a counter to stronger but less mobile armies. Hell, thats almost exactly how TvT bio vs. mech plays out currently. The primary reason its never been viable in PvT isn't anything intrinsic to the engine, its a result of specific unit values which can be tweaked, namely Tanks aren't that good against Protoss ground armies, and aside from Prism play (which had to be buffed considerably), Protoss harass is a limited and often risky investment that can either win games outright or be a complete waste. This means that it just makes sense for Protoss to big a bigass aoe deathball, and since Tanks aren't that good against said deathball, Terran is forced into drop heavy bio play. But changing that is not somehow impossible--buff mech overall and Tanks specifically so they can consistently take Protoss ground armies when properly positioned, and buff Protoss mobile, non-deathbally harass options such that they can consistently engage throughout the game and punish a superior force thats out of position. Which, judging by these notes, is exactly what they're looking at doing. sure it may be doable but will require alot more work. Simply because Terrans have too good of a Basetrade advantage. If in such a style a mech army goes straight for your base and you try to punish him with counter harass. he is still going to win 99/100 times in the current design, because his buildings can still fly, and the only Ground to Air are stalkers which suck in damage output compared to a buffed mech army. Meaning Protoss counter attack tools needs to significantly become stronger to make such direct pushes less favorable for a meching player, alittle buff to Oracles and DT isn't going to cut that. What if Protoss goes straight to air vs Mech? Not that I think Mech would become viable vs Protoss with those changes. If Protoss goes straight air, then Terran can stay even on air upgrades with them while having the option to tech switch into a ground army that will be much better upgraded than the Protoss ground army.
Thing is that Protoss does not need to go Ground when Terran matches Air with Air. To be honest I think that Protoss is even favored in a such a situation as even few Tempests counter BCs and mass Carrier counters the rest, so getting into endgame (which is basically guaranteed in a air vs air situation) on air vs air is really good for Protoss (assuming that the Templar/Ghost battle does not get lost).
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On September 25 2013 00:23 The_best32 wrote:
WHAAAATT????? no mention of tvp? this matchup is just broken atm, only chance for terran to win is scv pull.
it's like wol pvz. Why the hell blizzard don't want to fix this matchup???
on top of that the protoss cheese gets even a buff! it's just so broken! don't understand why blizzard want to see more cheese.
the other changes are okay, imo.
Harass =/= cheese. The best change made to Protoss since HotS launched was the Warp Prism buff, because it expanded Protoss options for harass throughout the game, without encouraging or rewarding deathball play. Reiroienting Protoss more around units that are mobile and focused on hit and run rather than deathball engagements is a good thing--Oracles are one of the few Protoss units that are designed for specifically that purpose, so they are exactly the sort of thing Blizzard should be looking to buff.
And its not like buffing mech, and especially combining mech/air upgrades, isn't a change to TvP. One of the major issues with TvP right now is that mech isn't viable.
Buffing mech, especially the Tank, while simultaneously buffing Protoss mobile harass is exactly what Blizzard should be doing, both to address PvT specifically and to improve the game in general.
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On September 25 2013 00:29 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 00:20 awesomoecalypse wrote:On September 25 2013 00:18 Big J wrote:On September 25 2013 00:07 freetgy wrote:On September 24 2013 23:59 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I think you're too perssimistic. Its not like counterattacking styles have never been viable in the SC2 metagame as a counter to stronger but less mobile armies. Hell, thats almost exactly how TvT bio vs. mech plays out currently. The primary reason its never been viable in PvT isn't anything intrinsic to the engine, its a result of specific unit values which can be tweaked, namely Tanks aren't that good against Protoss ground armies, and aside from Prism play (which had to be buffed considerably), Protoss harass is a limited and often risky investment that can either win games outright or be a complete waste. This means that it just makes sense for Protoss to big a bigass aoe deathball, and since Tanks aren't that good against said deathball, Terran is forced into drop heavy bio play. But changing that is not somehow impossible--buff mech overall and Tanks specifically so they can consistently take Protoss ground armies when properly positioned, and buff Protoss mobile, non-deathbally harass options such that they can consistently engage throughout the game and punish a superior force thats out of position. Which, judging by these notes, is exactly what they're looking at doing. sure it may be doable but will require alot more work. Simply because Terrans have too good of a Basetrade advantage. If in such a style a mech army goes straight for your base and you try to punish him with counter harass. he is still going to win 99/100 times in the current design, because his buildings can still fly, and the only Ground to Air are stalkers which suck in damage output compared to a buffed mech army. Meaning Protoss counter attack tools needs to significantly become stronger to make such direct pushes less favorable for a meching player, alittle buff to Oracles and DT isn't going to cut that. What if Protoss goes straight to air vs Mech? Not that I think Mech would become viable vs Protoss with those changes. If Protoss goes straight air, then Terran can stay even on air upgrades with them while having the option to tech switch into a ground army that will be much better upgraded than the Protoss ground army. Thing is that Protoss does not need to go Ground when Terran matches Air with Air. To be honest I think that Protoss is even favored in a such a situation as even few Tempests counter BCs and mass Carrier counters the rest, so getting into endgame (which is basically guaranteed in a air vs air situation) on air vs air is really good for Protoss (assuming that the Templar/Ghost battle does not get lost).
If Terran is already going full air, then Ravens are actually viable in the lategame, and PDD renders Tempests worthless.
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Ho god, the PvP is going to be awefull for a while again because of people doing only DT builds  .
I like the direction of the patches a lot.
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On September 25 2013 00:31 hoburame wrote:Ho god, the PvP is going to be awefull for a while again because of people doing only DT builds . I like the direction of the patches a lot.
Then take advantage with fast robo builds.
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On September 25 2013 00:31 hoburame wrote:Ho god, the PvP is going to be awefull for a while again because of people doing only DT builds . I like the direction of the patches a lot.
Oracles are still fast enough to keep up with DTs, they can detect, and they're cheaper now. If anything I'd expect stargate play to become more popular in PvP.
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I'm just really happy that Blizzard is considering several changes. They're obviously the only ones who can address the declining of SC2 that everyone is talking about. I'm not expert enough to know whether these changes are the exact ones needed, but it seems like a good start to me
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On September 25 2013 00:22 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 00:15 Vanadiel wrote:On September 24 2013 23:56 Bagi wrote:On September 24 2013 23:28 awesomoecalypse wrote:Yeah, but even with the occasional situation where you get 1 extra shot off... Are they really scared the tank would become overpowered if they buffed it more than this? The unit a borderline joke, with so many hard counters that it really should pose a threat if you don't properly counter it.
The mine nerf is huge but I'm fine with it, the biomine style is getting really stale. The tank buff is miniscule, no matter how you put it its not going to change the way tanks are utilized the way the mine nerf totally will. Unless Blizzard wants to drastically nerf terran with this patch, it just doesn't add up.
Also I'm really hoping that if/when they readjust these numbers, they buff the tank instead of de-nerfing the mine. Worst case scenario seems to me that they play with these numbers for a while, give up on the tank and make the widow mine a very slightly nerfed version of its current form. Thus keeping the stale bio/mine metagame unchanged. I think you're understimating the Tank buffs. In most situations, the cooldown reduction is a 10% DPS buff, which isn't miniscule...but then consider that the combined upgrades will likely make it significantly easier to commit to upgrading mech/air attack. Better upgrades + straight 10% damage buff is actually pretty significant. It's a good buff for pure mech imo, but I'm more concerned about DKs statement that they want to reintroduce the tank as support for bio comps in TvZ, and reduce the role of the mine at the same time. In this context it really is miniscule, simply because of how weak marine/tank is in HOTS. Mutas snipe the tanks, ultras cleave through the marines, even vipers can mess up your day completely. A slightly faster attack speed isn't going to change these things, which is why I think they will fuck about with the numbers a bit and then just forget about it. Also is it just me or is it just hilarious how David Kim is finally willing to buff the tank... So that it would be used more with BIO compositions? Does that guy really love his marines or what? Pure mech in SC2 is, in my opinion, boring to watch, boring to play and boring to play against I certainly don't want to watch a Lucifron vs Gowser ever again. And I believe that's why they try not to promote this type of play, because they don't want to have more death ball, passive game. Sure, you can buff mech to make it viable again, but it won't make interesting game like it was in Brood War. Mvp vs Dimaga was an amazing game though and is probably one of the most entertaining game to date. The problematic of the turtling can be solved later but having mech viable improves the diversity of the matchup as a whole.
Well, I have an other opinion, even though it was less boring than most of mech game because Dimaga actually tried to be aggressive but it's not supposed to work (and it didn't) and the game wasn't that interesting tbh.
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On September 25 2013 00:31 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 00:29 Big J wrote:On September 25 2013 00:20 awesomoecalypse wrote:On September 25 2013 00:18 Big J wrote:On September 25 2013 00:07 freetgy wrote:On September 24 2013 23:59 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I think you're too perssimistic. Its not like counterattacking styles have never been viable in the SC2 metagame as a counter to stronger but less mobile armies. Hell, thats almost exactly how TvT bio vs. mech plays out currently. The primary reason its never been viable in PvT isn't anything intrinsic to the engine, its a result of specific unit values which can be tweaked, namely Tanks aren't that good against Protoss ground armies, and aside from Prism play (which had to be buffed considerably), Protoss harass is a limited and often risky investment that can either win games outright or be a complete waste. This means that it just makes sense for Protoss to big a bigass aoe deathball, and since Tanks aren't that good against said deathball, Terran is forced into drop heavy bio play. But changing that is not somehow impossible--buff mech overall and Tanks specifically so they can consistently take Protoss ground armies when properly positioned, and buff Protoss mobile, non-deathbally harass options such that they can consistently engage throughout the game and punish a superior force thats out of position. Which, judging by these notes, is exactly what they're looking at doing. sure it may be doable but will require alot more work. Simply because Terrans have too good of a Basetrade advantage. If in such a style a mech army goes straight for your base and you try to punish him with counter harass. he is still going to win 99/100 times in the current design, because his buildings can still fly, and the only Ground to Air are stalkers which suck in damage output compared to a buffed mech army. Meaning Protoss counter attack tools needs to significantly become stronger to make such direct pushes less favorable for a meching player, alittle buff to Oracles and DT isn't going to cut that. What if Protoss goes straight to air vs Mech? Not that I think Mech would become viable vs Protoss with those changes. If Protoss goes straight air, then Terran can stay even on air upgrades with them while having the option to tech switch into a ground army that will be much better upgraded than the Protoss ground army. Thing is that Protoss does not need to go Ground when Terran matches Air with Air. To be honest I think that Protoss is even favored in a such a situation as even few Tempests counter BCs and mass Carrier counters the rest, so getting into endgame (which is basically guaranteed in a air vs air situation) on air vs air is really good for Protoss (assuming that the Templar/Ghost battle does not get lost). If Terran is already going full air, then Ravens are actually viable in the lategame, and PDD renders Tempests worthless.
High Templar render Ravens, PDDs, BCs, Ghosts and Vikings worthless.
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4713 Posts
On September 25 2013 00:22 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 00:15 Vanadiel wrote:On September 24 2013 23:56 Bagi wrote:On September 24 2013 23:28 awesomoecalypse wrote:Yeah, but even with the occasional situation where you get 1 extra shot off... Are they really scared the tank would become overpowered if they buffed it more than this? The unit a borderline joke, with so many hard counters that it really should pose a threat if you don't properly counter it.
The mine nerf is huge but I'm fine with it, the biomine style is getting really stale. The tank buff is miniscule, no matter how you put it its not going to change the way tanks are utilized the way the mine nerf totally will. Unless Blizzard wants to drastically nerf terran with this patch, it just doesn't add up.
Also I'm really hoping that if/when they readjust these numbers, they buff the tank instead of de-nerfing the mine. Worst case scenario seems to me that they play with these numbers for a while, give up on the tank and make the widow mine a very slightly nerfed version of its current form. Thus keeping the stale bio/mine metagame unchanged. I think you're understimating the Tank buffs. In most situations, the cooldown reduction is a 10% DPS buff, which isn't miniscule...but then consider that the combined upgrades will likely make it significantly easier to commit to upgrading mech/air attack. Better upgrades + straight 10% damage buff is actually pretty significant. It's a good buff for pure mech imo, but I'm more concerned about DKs statement that they want to reintroduce the tank as support for bio comps in TvZ, and reduce the role of the mine at the same time. In this context it really is miniscule, simply because of how weak marine/tank is in HOTS. Mutas snipe the tanks, ultras cleave through the marines, even vipers can mess up your day completely. A slightly faster attack speed isn't going to change these things, which is why I think they will fuck about with the numbers a bit and then just forget about it. Also is it just me or is it just hilarious how David Kim is finally willing to buff the tank... So that it would be used more with BIO compositions? Does that guy really love his marines or what? Pure mech in SC2 is, in my opinion, boring to watch, boring to play and boring to play against I certainly don't want to watch a Lucifron vs Gowser ever again. And I believe that's why they try not to promote this type of play, because they don't want to have more death ball, passive game. Sure, you can buff mech to make it viable again, but it won't make interesting game like it was in Brood War. Mvp vs Dimaga was an amazing game though and is probably one of the most entertaining game to date. The problematic of the turtling can be solved later but having mech viable improves the diversity of the matchup as a whole.
Unfortunately the Mvp vs Dimaga game on Newkirk was an outliner, the games usually don't play out like that, and Dimaga could have saved himself a lot of that trouble had he gone straight for SH and slowly choked the life out of Mvp, what he did was kind of give him enough time to stabilize and have enough production to be able to react to all the different tech switches. If zerg just does the smart thing and go for SH then the game turns very dull very quickly. Its only exciting if the zerg decides to make it hard for himself and tries to go the old school way of just doing mass expanding and tech switching, and even then he still has tons of chances to just outright kill the mech player during a transition.
I, unfortunately, have to agree with him, mech is dull to play, dull to watch (most of the time) and sometimes dull to play against. The beauty of BW mech is no where to be found in SC2, in BW overkill and limited unit selection meant that bigger the army became the harder it was to control, thus you could always have back and forth interaction.
You had to spread the tanks out just right, too spread and they where easy pickings to small packs of units and the line wasn't strong enough, too packed it was vulnerable to being bum rushed and blown up. You had to spread mines optimally so they actually did damage to your opponent and couldn't be dragged to your tanks, you had to spread tanks optimally so they didn't get zealot or mine bombed, you had to fan out to have tanks do the appropriate amount of overkill and, in many cases also needed to focus fire.
None of those interactions and limitations are imposed upon SC2 mech, without those it is just uninteresting, and everything I mentioned stems from core design issues, there is no min/maxing of unit stats you can do here to change that.
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Really hard to come back to this game, i ju stplay casually and even I am annoyed by these changes..
mine nerf paired with meaningless tank buff? How can tanks be a viable replacement? It doesn't matter how many times it shoots, if zerg is making muta ling bane, or you're playing a TvP, you're losing by making siege tanks. Oracles reduced cost is GOOD but not in conjunction with a huge change to Terran's ability to hold P all ins (mine). Dt speed is completely random and pulled from their asses, will not help the game and will just make players more frustrated.
what is the point of all this constant buffing of harass? are people not constantly fighting off warp prisms/mutas/drops/banshees, etc? From what i'm seeing, i'm seeing harass as THE premium strategy in the metagame, especialy as a protoss player. Warp Prism now standard, Mutas now standard every ZvT, banshee vs banshee now standard every TvT. Is this patching truly making player skill stand out, or is it punishing people in an entropic way simply because they make a misread and push to take tower as 3 speed dts get dropping into their main, because they went banshee > banshee instead of banshee > raven in tvt? Or they scouted, their banshee was late and lost by default.
The amount of upsets happening to cheeses and gimmicky BS is at an all time high since release and the game is more frustrating/more lucky-feeling than ever. Some games you just lose because your opponent did x, was willing to make the 50/50 gamble and you just lost.
edit: when you have 6 possible balance changes, it means you don't understand what should be done. It means you are shooting in the dark. 6 possible changes, any combination will have a drastically different effect on the meta.
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On September 25 2013 00:31 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 00:29 Big J wrote:On September 25 2013 00:20 awesomoecalypse wrote:On September 25 2013 00:18 Big J wrote:On September 25 2013 00:07 freetgy wrote:On September 24 2013 23:59 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I think you're too perssimistic. Its not like counterattacking styles have never been viable in the SC2 metagame as a counter to stronger but less mobile armies. Hell, thats almost exactly how TvT bio vs. mech plays out currently. The primary reason its never been viable in PvT isn't anything intrinsic to the engine, its a result of specific unit values which can be tweaked, namely Tanks aren't that good against Protoss ground armies, and aside from Prism play (which had to be buffed considerably), Protoss harass is a limited and often risky investment that can either win games outright or be a complete waste. This means that it just makes sense for Protoss to big a bigass aoe deathball, and since Tanks aren't that good against said deathball, Terran is forced into drop heavy bio play. But changing that is not somehow impossible--buff mech overall and Tanks specifically so they can consistently take Protoss ground armies when properly positioned, and buff Protoss mobile, non-deathbally harass options such that they can consistently engage throughout the game and punish a superior force thats out of position. Which, judging by these notes, is exactly what they're looking at doing. sure it may be doable but will require alot more work. Simply because Terrans have too good of a Basetrade advantage. If in such a style a mech army goes straight for your base and you try to punish him with counter harass. he is still going to win 99/100 times in the current design, because his buildings can still fly, and the only Ground to Air are stalkers which suck in damage output compared to a buffed mech army. Meaning Protoss counter attack tools needs to significantly become stronger to make such direct pushes less favorable for a meching player, alittle buff to Oracles and DT isn't going to cut that. What if Protoss goes straight to air vs Mech? Not that I think Mech would become viable vs Protoss with those changes. If Protoss goes straight air, then Terran can stay even on air upgrades with them while having the option to tech switch into a ground army that will be much better upgraded than the Protoss ground army. Thing is that Protoss does not need to go Ground when Terran matches Air with Air. To be honest I think that Protoss is even favored in a such a situation as even few Tempests counter BCs and mass Carrier counters the rest, so getting into endgame (which is basically guaranteed in a air vs air situation) on air vs air is really good for Protoss (assuming that the Templar/Ghost battle does not get lost). If Terran is already going full air, then Ravens are actually viable in the lategame, and PDD renders Tempests worthless.
Nope. It just adds more micro and positional dependence to the game. You can pull out of PDDs, or feedback them, or focusfire them. You can camp his base with your range advantage and the only way to push out with his airfleet is to mass PDD over the whole map.
Not to mention that he is countering your few Tempests with Ravens "just" to be able to go for BCs. So when he invests that much into BC/Raven, you can also easily go VR against those units
In any case, the discussion is fruitless. It's not going to happen, as Mech will still be unplayable in TvP after such a patch.
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wow everybody hates the protoss buff, everybody plays zerg and terran only? LOL
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You have to spread Tank Lines properly in SC2 as well depending on circumstances--a good spread is the difference between losing outright to Blinding Cloud, or actually holding your own.
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How can tanks be a viable replacement?
Its not just a Tank buff, its also combining mech/air weapons upgrades, which is a buff to any playstyle with both mech and air. If you're going mech, your vikings are going to be much stronger than a bio players' will, which means that Muta/Ling/Bling actually isn't going to be that great against a meching Terran unless you catch them horribly out of position.
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Lower tank siege/unsiege time please!
I think this tank mechanic is the most boring thing in SC2.
The 2 second unsiege time just encourages tanks to be parked the whole game and for TvT to be just boring gridlocks and a bunch of posturing.
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On September 25 2013 00:42 woreyour wrote:
wow everybody hates the protoss buff, everybody plays zerg and terran only? LOL
People complain constantly about deathball play, turtling or all-ins, then bitch and moan when non-deathbally mobile harass Protoss units get buffed, even though making those units viable throughout the game is 100% necessary to shifting Protoss away from deathball play.
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On September 25 2013 00:47 SpeghettiJoe wrote:
Lower tank siege/unsiege time please!
I think this tank mechanic is the most boring thing in SC2.
The 2 second unsiege time just encourages tanks to be parked the whole game and for TvT to be just boring gridlocks and a bunch of posturing.
No way. Tanks should absolutely be punished for being caught out of position. That said, I'd be interested in seeing what would happen if they buffed the speed of unsieged Tanks--Tanks caught out of position would have a window of vulnerability while they transformed, but you could reposition them more easily, which might make them more dynamic and better at map control.
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On September 25 2013 00:49 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 00:42 woreyour wrote:
wow everybody hates the protoss buff, everybody plays zerg and terran only? LOL People complain constantly about deathball play, turtling or all-ins, then bitch and moan when non-deathbally mobile harass Protoss units get buffed, even though making those units viable throughout the game is 100% necessary to shifting Protoss away from deathball play.
Exactly. People hate the death ball, but then see anything that could lead to an all-in and a terrible thing that will ruin the game. There is no winning with protoss, people just love to freak out about everything when it comes to that race.
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EPT
