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On September 25 2013 00:40 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 00:22 ETisME wrote:On September 25 2013 00:15 Vanadiel wrote:On September 24 2013 23:56 Bagi wrote:On September 24 2013 23:28 awesomoecalypse wrote:Yeah, but even with the occasional situation where you get 1 extra shot off... Are they really scared the tank would become overpowered if they buffed it more than this? The unit a borderline joke, with so many hard counters that it really should pose a threat if you don't properly counter it.
The mine nerf is huge but I'm fine with it, the biomine style is getting really stale. The tank buff is miniscule, no matter how you put it its not going to change the way tanks are utilized the way the mine nerf totally will. Unless Blizzard wants to drastically nerf terran with this patch, it just doesn't add up.
Also I'm really hoping that if/when they readjust these numbers, they buff the tank instead of de-nerfing the mine. Worst case scenario seems to me that they play with these numbers for a while, give up on the tank and make the widow mine a very slightly nerfed version of its current form. Thus keeping the stale bio/mine metagame unchanged. I think you're understimating the Tank buffs. In most situations, the cooldown reduction is a 10% DPS buff, which isn't miniscule...but then consider that the combined upgrades will likely make it significantly easier to commit to upgrading mech/air attack. Better upgrades + straight 10% damage buff is actually pretty significant. It's a good buff for pure mech imo, but I'm more concerned about DKs statement that they want to reintroduce the tank as support for bio comps in TvZ, and reduce the role of the mine at the same time. In this context it really is miniscule, simply because of how weak marine/tank is in HOTS. Mutas snipe the tanks, ultras cleave through the marines, even vipers can mess up your day completely. A slightly faster attack speed isn't going to change these things, which is why I think they will fuck about with the numbers a bit and then just forget about it. Also is it just me or is it just hilarious how David Kim is finally willing to buff the tank... So that it would be used more with BIO compositions? Does that guy really love his marines or what? Pure mech in SC2 is, in my opinion, boring to watch, boring to play and boring to play against I certainly don't want to watch a Lucifron vs Gowser ever again. And I believe that's why they try not to promote this type of play, because they don't want to have more death ball, passive game. Sure, you can buff mech to make it viable again, but it won't make interesting game like it was in Brood War. Mvp vs Dimaga was an amazing game though and is probably one of the most entertaining game to date. The problematic of the turtling can be solved later but having mech viable improves the diversity of the matchup as a whole. Unfortunately the Mvp vs Dimaga game on Newkirk was an outliner, the games usually don't play out like that, and Dimaga could have saved himself a lot of that trouble had he gone straight for SH and slowly choked the life out of Mvp, what he did was kind of give him enough time to stabilize and have enough production to be able to react to all the different tech switches. If zerg just does the smart thing and go for SH then the game turns very dull very quickly. Its only exciting if the zerg decides to make it hard for himself and tries to go the old school way of just doing mass expanding and tech switching, and even then he still has tons of chances to just outright kill the mech player during a transition. I, unfortunately, have to agree with him, mech is dull to play, dull to watch (most of the time) and sometimes dull to play against. The beauty of BW mech is no where to be found in SC2, in BW overkill and limited unit selection meant that bigger the army became the harder it was to control, thus you could always have back and forth interaction. You had to spread the tanks out just right, too spread and they where easy pickings to small packs of units and the line wasn't strong enough, too packed it was vulnerable to being bum rushed and blown up. You had to spread mines optimally so they actually did damage to your opponent and couldn't be dragged to your tanks, you had to spread tanks optimally so they didn't get zealot or mine bombed, you had to fan out to have tanks do the appropriate amount of overkill and, in many cases also needed to focus fire. None of those interactions and limitations are imposed upon SC2 mech, without those it is just uninteresting, and everything I mentioned stems from core design issues, there is no min/maxing of unit stats you can do here to change that.
Swarmhost would have worked but there are different style to deal with mech, some goes for dimaga style mixed with viper to help, some grab the infestor broodlord ball earlier etc.
This is actually why I like mech, there are just different styles to fight against mech and some are more map dependent on others and also is dependent on the player's style.
I like mech because of Mvp basically. Watching him tech switching at the right time is awesome. Anyone remember his mech during WoL would (or should) agree. See broodlords just finished morphing? Tanks runby blasting everything down while preparing for a raven transition.
watching player's stream playing mech is even more interesting, how many tanks to put where, how to use CCs to limit army pathing from opponent, how to move out etc. And especially when mech constantly lead to a very cool mined out whole map situation.
The difficulty of mech is exactly why I like mech, especially dealing with transition timing.
Artosis once said starcraft 2 game is like a rubic cube and I personally think Mech is the perfect example.
How do you crack down a strong defensive mech player? How do you defense against that stream of units or how do you transition and stay cost efficient against so many different style?
It takes immense skill to know where to put units, when to get what units, how to buy time for transition.
I don't know much about bw mech but it maybe just that you need another point of view to enjoy sc2 mech
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Dark temp ? no you just can do that's. There are quite speed atm.
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So what can catch up to a DT with anyrace (P included) ? Not complaining just curious.
Oracle change will be annoying but ... why not.
Mine radius will break TvZ i'm sure of it! But i love it ! Because ZERG ! ::p
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On September 25 2013 00:51 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 00:49 awesomoecalypse wrote:On September 25 2013 00:42 woreyour wrote:
wow everybody hates the protoss buff, everybody plays zerg and terran only? LOL People complain constantly about deathball play, turtling or all-ins, then bitch and moan when non-deathbally mobile harass Protoss units get buffed, even though making those units viable throughout the game is 100% necessary to shifting Protoss away from deathball play. Exactly. People hate the death ball, but then see anything that could lead to an all-in and a terrible thing that will ruin the game. There is no winning with protoss, people just love to freak out about everything when it comes to that race.
Even if its not something that will lead to an all-in they bitch. When the Warp Prism buff was introduced there was a huge amount of complaining that it would lead to nothing but gateway all-ins, when in fact its impact on all-ins was minimal, and its main effect was to encourage Toss to stay more active on the map and harass throughout the game. Thats what everyone claimed they wanted, but they still bitched and moaned. Now Blizzard is looking at improving the other main non-deathbally mobile Protoss harass unit, the Oracle, and its the exact same amount of whining.
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On September 25 2013 00:47 awesomoecalypse wrote:Its not just a Tank buff, its also combining mech/air weapons upgrades, which is a buff to any playstyle with both mech and air. If you're going mech, your vikings are going to be much stronger than a bio players' will, which means that Muta/Ling/Bling actually isn't going to be that great against a meching Terran unless you catch them horribly out of position.
Forgot to add my 3rd bit, if terran is meching, you're winning
Your argument is:
- it's fine, terran can still mech
this is nothing new, terrans have always been able to mech, they just chose not to because it's a suboptimal strategy with less vods to study, which takes more effort to learn and is ultimately more abuseable
- terran builds vikings as mech against mutas
this sounds like the most effective strategy ever! is this the bnet foruM?
- mech/air weps combination is a buff to any play style
its not, mech plating was already combined with ship plating, which was the standard armoryupgrade path due to it's effect on mine and medivac survivability
so, players getting air attack (why would you get this against zerg?) or +1 vehicle weapons (has no effect on widow mine damage) now have stronger siege tanks. Great, i can now upgrade my extremely expensive, fragile, zero mobility and map control army to be stronger against something that might be coming, all under the assumption that the composition i'm slowly building up to will be relevant against a race with an extreme amount of hardcounters to mech.
please, the armory changes and siege tank changes are just there to make terrans feel like blizzard doesn't totally hate them and the fact that they used the units they made to make game imba again
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On September 25 2013 00:51 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 00:49 awesomoecalypse wrote:On September 25 2013 00:42 woreyour wrote:
wow everybody hates the protoss buff, everybody plays zerg and terran only? LOL People complain constantly about deathball play, turtling or all-ins, then bitch and moan when non-deathbally mobile harass Protoss units get buffed, even though making those units viable throughout the game is 100% necessary to shifting Protoss away from deathball play. Exactly. People hate the death ball, but then see anything that could lead to an all-in and a terrible thing that will ruin the game. There is no winning with protoss, people just love to freak out about everything when it comes to that race.
God your post history and your sig quote make your comment so ironic.
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The only problem with this patch, is we can't play the test map now.
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On September 24 2013 17:15 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:04 tar wrote:On September 24 2013 16:36 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:29 tar wrote:
It's awful how ppl are bashing DK no matter what he does. Blizz has changed their patching with HotS considerably. Patches are now rather buffs than nerfes, there is more time for things to establish and even more radical approaches are tested. now, is this appreciated? not really.
There is a test map and already ppl (int his case Terrans mostly) are whining about basically everthing that concerns their race. I don't think the wm nerf breaks TvZ it rather fixes it. How annoying is it to see a 20 to 30 minute TvZ just end because all of a sudden there were just the right wm detonations to kill off everthing Zerg has and then 2/2 or 3/3 marines clean up the rest...great...
Maybe you should actually watch games instead of typing dumb shit. TvZ besides INnoVation is not Terran favored really. The game did switch insanely since Zergs figured out that you can delay the biomine parade at expansions very well with spines, also they have learned to effectively micro against it. In addition to that, INnoVation still seems to go, but he doesn't look nearly as good as in the past. I explained the winrates in proleague TvZ when INnoVation and Flash seemed untouchable and the winrates at 60% or above. They had over 50 games combined not losing TvZ while other Terrans very well did lose TvZ. Now we see INnoVation and Flash falling down or Zergs rising. Also, when you talk about buffs, why is it that Terran got no buff in the match up they really struggle in ? TvP? No word about the photon overcharge, yet more reward for Protoss and still little risk. Maybe you should educate yourself about teh game and the scene as well as about the metagame, before telling Terrans to shut up when they are underperforming below the top level and that severely. The Terrans that really hold up are INnoVation, TaeJa, Polt, Bomber and a few others more or less. I dare to say Protoss and Zerg perform a lot better on average and especially on the lower-top levels. You really are one rude chap. 1st of all, I didn't say anything about who is favored or not, I just don't like the way WMs end games: one missstep and then the game is basically done even at the later stages of the game. This is something you encounter outside pro games quite a lot too. Then, I didn't base my post upon the idea that Terrans should shut up because they are doing great. don't know where you are taking this from: My point was that the balancing approached changed (ie improved in my opinion) with HotS yet there is no appreciation for it at all. I brought up Terran because in this balance map patch discussion it were mostly Terrans complaining due to the WM nerf. It holds true for any race when it comes to balance patches that are buffing "the other guys shit". Also, this is a balance map patch. It roughly shows indications where they want to go and apparently the tank is getting a focus here. 2.7 compared to 3.0 attack speend might or might not change enough atm, but the matter is: they are considering pushing the tank which is something that was demanded by so many ppl for a long time! I simply don't value wrong statements. There is plenty of stuff in the game that can turn the game around, is the mine more random because it does target automatically? I dare to say a fungal holds the same problem then, because we all know what happens with fungaled units in TvZ. It can turn around teh game as well. Same with timewarp or forcefields. I personally like the approach of David Kim to buff rather than nerf, but you still have to take into account what to do. Terran struggles against Protoss due to Photon Overcharge allowing amazingly greedy play, yet they buff Protoss early game due to making tech builds either less costly or stronger in case of dark templars without weakening the defence. Yet they nerf Terran aspects and don't push anything that would allow for early game initiative. So how do you consider this approach justified?
Wait, are you ignoring the terran mech/air upgrades buff ?? This is HUGE imo.
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Some of these changes are terri-terri-terribad (widow mine nerf, protoss coin flip buffs). Some are the tiniest, most conservative, most shy baby steps in a good direction (mech buffs)...but let me tell you all the best change i see so far:
The best change is that we are all talking about the game we love SC2 and that blizzard is finally doing something to improve the game, and there is some buzz generated now.
They seriously have left the game alone way too long again...this game needs buzz and excitement and leaving the game in a state where there's literally only 2 or sometimes even 1 viable strategy in a match-up in an RTS game is BAD.
Blizzard needs to tweak things way more often - they claimed that they would do exactly that during the beta of HOTS and then they completely curled up into a ball and refused to make any impactful changes because of a fear of breaking the game.
How much excitement and buzz is there around a bo3 series between two pros when one of them goes MECH right now in TvZ/TvP? A LOT. People are like, "HOLY SHIT DUDE DID YOU SEE SO N SO GO MECH AGAINST ZERG, HOLY SHIT IT WAS AMAZING!"
It's amazing what strategical diversity does for the viewing and spectator experience of a game. When a player has the option to choose from three or even four viable strategies...spectators are on the edge of their seats and do not know what will happen next.
Bio + mine every game TvZ and bio vs P every game = the same thing as broodlord infestor every game. It's mind numbingly predictable and therefore boring no matter how dynamic or exciting it was the first 100 times. Of course bio + mine vs ling/bane/muta is much more balanced than broodlord infestor ever was, but you get the point.
Half of the excitement of old school SC1 aka brood war was wondering what the fuck strategy these progamers were going to use in their next match. "OMG HE'S USING VALKRIES WHAT THE FUCK FANTASY!" "CORSAIR REAVER holy shit it's working" "BIO INTO FULL MECH SWITCH TVZ, FLAWLESSLY EXECUTED!"
We desperately need that in SC2. Just imagine how much buzz and excitement will be generated when there's not just 1 strategy per match-up.
With that being said, in the opening line of this post I mentioned the widow mine nerf was terribad. I said that because they once again are going to make a mistake of hardcore nerfing like they did with the hellbat and the widow mine is the only other new Terran HOTS unit. It forces an equivalent amount of micro on the Zerg player's part in TVZ. Just like a few clutch baneling hits can end a game vs marines, now in HOTS the same is true for a few clutch widow mine hits on ling/banelings.
Now instead of just the Terran microing and splitting marines, the Zerg also has to do their share of micromanagement. Of course they may revise their proposed changes, and hopefully remove some altogether (the protoss ones) so we'll see what happens.
To sum up: Blizzard needs to Mech it Happen™ and needs to revamp the game with patches, much, much, more often.
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On September 24 2013 17:46 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:19 vthree wrote:On September 24 2013 17:03 ETisME wrote:On September 24 2013 16:36 NarutO wrote:On September 24 2013 16:29 tar wrote:
It's awful how ppl are bashing DK no matter what he does. Blizz has changed their patching with HotS considerably. Patches are now rather buffs than nerfes, there is more time for things to establish and even more radical approaches are tested. now, is this appreciated? not really.
There is a test map and already ppl (int his case Terrans mostly) are whining about basically everthing that concerns their race. I don't think the wm nerf breaks TvZ it rather fixes it. How annoying is it to see a 20 to 30 minute TvZ just end because all of a sudden there were just the right wm detonations to kill off everthing Zerg has and then 2/2 or 3/3 marines clean up the rest...great...
Maybe you should actually watch games instead of typing dumb shit. TvZ besides INnoVation is not Terran favored really. The game did switch insanely since Zergs figured out that you can delay the biomine parade at expansions very well with spines, also they have learned to effectively micro against it. In addition to that, INnoVation still seems to go, but he doesn't look nearly as good as in the past. I explained the winrates in proleague TvZ when INnoVation and Flash seemed untouchable and the winrates at 60% or above. They had over 50 games combined not losing TvZ while other Terrans very well did lose TvZ. Now we see INnoVation and Flash falling down or Zergs rising. Also, when you talk about buffs, why is it that Terran got no buff in the match up they really struggle in ? TvP? No word about the photon overcharge, yet more reward for Protoss and still little risk. Maybe you should educate yourself about teh game and the scene as well as about the metagame, before telling Terrans to shut up when they are underperforming below the top level and that severely. The Terrans that really hold up are INnoVation, TaeJa, Polt, Bomber and a few others more or less. I dare to say Protoss and Zerg perform a lot better on average and especially on the lower-top levels. he isn't complaining about balance. he is complaining about the poor game shown due to one lucky mine hit and 3/3 bio roll over later. pretty much everyone is complaining about this. Fix =/= balancing, Fix can mean fixing the poor matchup quality as well. Then can we also get storm to have 1 radius? Because those 'lucky' storms have had 3-3 Protoss rolling over us for a long time now. It is just frustrating that terrans have to be 'perfect' against storms with snipes but zergs just cry when they aren't 'perfect' against WM and lose and Blizzard just nerfs them without providing a real alternative. Many zergs have shown that you can overrun 4M with good control (DRG, Soulkey, Curious, etc) were the storm landed automatically just because you have a HT? If the mines were detonated onto the clumped units because the player punishing the other's mistake, then that would be awesome. mid to late game PvT, terran ball vs toss ball has a lot to do with baiting storms, sniping, emping, feedback etc. the interaction between ghosts and HTs is interesting, medivac ghost drop emp, warp prism ghost storm, HT flanking etc. all have interesting and dynamic interaction. but do you recall any terran in recent matchup that manually use the mines to target fire the clumped banelings? A lot of games were win/loss just because the mine hit/not hit onto the clumped banelings. Zerg can't micro out from a mine hit once they engage and the engagements are too fast for terran to even attempt to manually target fire with mine. not all people aren't saying 4M is way too good and can't be over run, some would, I will leave my opinion to myself. During bio tank thor vs ling baneling muta era, we know T is good because T is target firing the banelings with tanks, bio splitting and protecting tanks, leap frogging tanks, spreading out the tanks just enough etc. We know Z is good because the lings try for a surround, banelings not clumping up and spread to catchup with the bio, muta magic boxing the thor and target firing the tanks or chasing the bio depends on the situation. I will just leave these questions to you: Did the terran lose because he didn't target the mine well? Did he win because he target firing the mines or just too many mines and landed one luckily or zerg mis calcuating the mine numbers or just poor micro from zerg? Personally I want games to be won because the player is manually doing something to punish a mistake, not because the mistake was automatically punished just because he has a unit in position. I dislike a game where the key unit is one that can deal the game winning blow automatically while the other player has to kill it manually
This.
Words of wisdom really.
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On September 25 2013 00:53 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 00:51 Plansix wrote:On September 25 2013 00:49 awesomoecalypse wrote:On September 25 2013 00:42 woreyour wrote:
wow everybody hates the protoss buff, everybody plays zerg and terran only? LOL People complain constantly about deathball play, turtling or all-ins, then bitch and moan when non-deathbally mobile harass Protoss units get buffed, even though making those units viable throughout the game is 100% necessary to shifting Protoss away from deathball play. Exactly. People hate the death ball, but then see anything that could lead to an all-in and a terrible thing that will ruin the game. There is no winning with protoss, people just love to freak out about everything when it comes to that race. Even if its not something that will lead to an all-in they bitch. When the Warp Prism buff was introduced there was a huge amount of complaining that it would lead to nothing but gateway all-ins, when in fact its impact on all-ins was minimal, and its main effect was to encourage Toss to stay more active on the map and harass throughout the game. Thats what everyone claimed they wanted, but they still bitched and moaned. Now Blizzard is looking at improving the other main non-deathbally mobile Protoss harass unit, the Oracle, and its the exact same amount of whining.
Maybe because people didn't claim they wanted those Protoss improvements to come attached to making Protoss cheese even more of a headache, and less punishing for the Protoss. And recall that the actual Warp Prism buff that went through wasn't the same as originally proposed. So of course it didn't have the same effect on all-ins people were predicting, the buff wasn't as much.
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hi patchterrans ur era might be over! finaly
dt speed buff? must be a joke!
and oracle cost reduce?! really blizz? its the best earlygame unit Oo you better give it more lategame usage...
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On September 25 2013 01:31 Sosuka wrote:
hi patchterrans ur era might be over! finaly
dt speed buff? must be a joke!
and oracle cost reduce?! really blizz? its the best earlygame unit Oo you better give it more lategame usage...
Patch Terran...? Terran requires more skill than the other races.
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This made my day. I literally shouted "YEAAAAAAH" out-loud when I read the tank buff. I am both a mech player and an advocate of bio + mines + tank play, I think it makes the game so much more beautiful.
Globally, I think ALL the changes are in the right direction : more dynamic games and more diversity. I am a Terran player, but I REALLY LIKE the roach change.
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On September 25 2013 01:36 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 01:31 Sosuka wrote:
hi patchterrans ur era might be over! finaly
dt speed buff? must be a joke!
and oracle cost reduce?! really blizz? its the best earlygame unit Oo you better give it more lategame usage... Patch Terran...? Terran requires more skill than the other races.
According to terran players. I know, your shocked that people would think their own race is the hardest.
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On September 25 2013 00:05 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 23:17 Leafty wrote:
What if DT speed got increased with zealot speed? That way the unit is not too strong in the early game.
Apart from the orcale costs, the other changes are things to try. You mean DT Charge? I actually like that idea... Makes them a better harassing unit in the mid to late game, but at the same time, doesn't make them imba like the proposed changes that David Kim suggested.
This! Changing Charge to an "infantry speed" buff that affects zealots and DTs would be sick. Afterall, you have the twilight tech from going Darkshrine anyways.
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On September 25 2013 01:40 People_0f_Color wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 00:05 geokilla wrote:On September 24 2013 23:17 Leafty wrote:
What if DT speed got increased with zealot speed? That way the unit is not too strong in the early game.
Apart from the orcale costs, the other changes are things to try. You mean DT Charge? I actually like that idea... Makes them a better harassing unit in the mid to late game, but at the same time, doesn't make them imba like the proposed changes that David Kim suggested. This! Changing Charge to an "infantry speed" buff that affects zealots and DTs would be sick. Afterall, you have the twilight tech from going Darkshrine anyways.
sounds good indeed.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 25 2013 01:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 01:36 geokilla wrote:On September 25 2013 01:31 Sosuka wrote:
hi patchterrans ur era might be over! finaly
dt speed buff? must be a joke!
and oracle cost reduce?! really blizz? its the best earlygame unit Oo you better give it more lategame usage... Patch Terran...? Terran requires more skill than the other races. According to terran players. I know, your shocked that people would think their own race is the hardest.
What is wrong with me. I play T&Z and think that P is the hardest.
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On September 25 2013 00:56 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 00:47 awesomoecalypse wrote:How can tanks be a viable replacement? Its not just a Tank buff, its also combining mech/air weapons upgrades, which is a buff to any playstyle with both mech and air. If you're going mech, your vikings are going to be much stronger than a bio players' will, which means that Muta/Ling/Bling actually isn't going to be that great against a meching Terran unless you catch them horribly out of position. Forgot to add my 3rd bit, if terran is meching, you're winning Your argument is: - it's fine, terran can still mech this is nothing new, terrans have always been able to mech, they just chose not to because it's a suboptimal strategy with less vods to study, which takes more effort to learn and is ultimately more abuseable - terran builds vikings as mech against mutas this sounds like the most effective strategy ever! is this the bnet foruM? - mech/air weps combination is a buff to any play style its not, mech plating was already combined with ship plating, which was the standard armoryupgrade path due to it's effect on mine and medivac survivability so, players getting air attack (why would you get this against zerg?) or +1 vehicle weapons (has no effect on widow mine damage) now have stronger siege tanks. Great, i can now upgrade my extremely expensive, fragile, zero mobility and map control army to be stronger against something that might be coming, all under the assumption that the composition i'm slowly building up to will be relevant against a race with an extreme amount of hardcounters to mech. please, the armory changes and siege tank changes are just there to make terrans feel like blizzard doesn't totally hate them and the fact that they used the units they made to make game imba again
I just wanted to point out that the reason Vikings are bad versus Mutalisks is because of Terran production and not because of the unit themselves. A critical mass of Vikings is actually better than a critical mass of Mutalisks, it's just that you die before you can build up enough.
A Thor with 5-6 Vikings can easily fight small to medium packs of 5-10 Mutalisks. But when you get to 20-30 mutalisks you'll suddenly need 20-30 Vikings to compensate and that's just not something Terran is able to do.
Terran instead would prefer to build up a higher marine count than to build up a higher Viking count because at least if marines beat Mutalisks you can still fight head on. 20-30 Vikings are only good against Mutalisks but are useless vs the zergling remax.
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EPT
