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United States7483 Posts
On September 25 2013 02:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 02:02 Hider wrote:
Im surprised there is no comment about scv pulls vs protoss. At highest level, this is honestly seems a bit imba (and I am terran player myself - so no bias there). It is really a response to protoss being greedy on 2 bases and terrans spotting it and punishing it. I don't think its a problem because it is done in response to how a protoss is playing, not as a standard thing.
Actually it's become a standard thing. A 3 base terran pulling scvs for an attack against a two base toss who simply can't have the damage needed to hold it. It's funny because there are pro players who do the pull without even scouting, and sometimes get burned by it because the other player has a super fast storm or something.
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On September 25 2013 02:14 nottapro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 02:07 RedMosquito wrote:
Sorry to be a downer but the attack speed of the tank is increased only 10%. That's barely going to matter since tanks are units that don't fire continuously. In most battles that faster second shot will not even come to pass. One second volley might be the difference between a victory and defeat, even if it only happens 10% of the time. Then imagine 8 tanks, each tank now has a 10% greater chance of the second volley. The improvement to tanks stacks as a new tank is introduced. Its a massive buff to tanks.
Exactly. Also the buff shows that Blizzard is at least looking at the tank. Not to mention the huge Armory buff. A Robo heavy Protoss can't deal with large numbers of Banshees, while a Templar Heavy Composition will have trouble with Tank Hellion Compositions. The only issue I still see is the Tempest. Which is a long forgotten unit.
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France9034 Posts
I'm truly puzzled by some of these choices...
WM + tank changes are great IMHO. It seems like 4M has become too dominant amongst the strategy terrans can pull.
Tunneling Claw seems good also.
Then... I just don't understand the protoss changes. It feels to me as they are pushing farther gimmicky units to adress "the fact that toss is too defensive". I may be wrong, but how's that bad ? I mean, we've known for quite some time (though it may have changed) that by design zerg is the reactive race for example, without it being a bad thing, just a choice, that pushes farther the concept of asymmetrical gameplay, without breaking the game (that doesn't mean balance has always been perfect, but changes were made so that zerg could be competitive while still being the reactive race...)
I don't really see these changes to toss as "good" (esp. the Oracle one, which I don't think will help Oracle being built and included in late stages of the game, but rather will quicken/strenghten the openings based on oracle harass...)
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With the nerfs to my gameplay in Terran I'm going to have to chagne to protoss and just open proxy oracle in DT harass with 3 base all in I'll be GM in a week lol
Seriously My game play surrounds the versatility of BIO even in T v T.... I project a Massive influx of losses for terran if this is implemented... I'm not talking insignificant i'm talking 20% or more in both mathups......
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Italy12247 Posts
On September 25 2013 02:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 02:02 Hider wrote:
Im surprised there is no comment about scv pulls vs protoss. At highest level, this is honestly seems a bit imba (and I am terran player myself - so no bias there). It is really a response to protoss being greedy on 2 bases and terrans spotting it and punishing it. I don't think its a problem because it is done in response to how a protoss is playing, not as a standard thing.
Scv pulls have nothing to do with protoss 2base builds, and in fact protoss players are playing much less greedy (slower storm, one forge instead of two) to try and deal with it. They simply exploit a very specific window in which the Protoss players are (almost) always weaker than the terran. If anything, it's very comparable to the old roach max build more than anything.
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On September 25 2013 02:37 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 02:04 Plansix wrote:On September 25 2013 02:02 Hider wrote:
Im surprised there is no comment about scv pulls vs protoss. At highest level, this is honestly seems a bit imba (and I am terran player myself - so no bias there). It is really a response to protoss being greedy on 2 bases and terrans spotting it and punishing it. I don't think its a problem because it is done in response to how a protoss is playing, not as a standard thing. Scv pulls have nothing to do with protoss 2base builds, and in fact protoss players are playing much less greedy (slower storm, one forge instead of two) to try and deal with it. They simply exploit a very specific window in which the Protoss players are (almost) always weaker than the terran. If anything, it's very comparable to the old roach max build more than anything.
"in fact protoss players are playing much less greedy (slower storm, one forge instead of two) to try and deal with it."
They are playing less greedy because the timing was exploiting their greedy play--by definition.
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Italy12247 Posts
My point was, it's not a REACTION to the protoss 2base build. The terran will not scan a toss base and say "oh double forge, time to pull scv's" or "welp single forge, can't do that!" or whatever.
Terran players do NOT pull scv's because protoss players play greedy on 2bases. They do it because it's an incredibly strong all-in, no matter what the toss is doing.
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On September 25 2013 02:50 Teoita wrote:
My point was, it's not a REACTION to the protoss 2base build. The terran will not scan a toss base and say "oh double forge, time to pull scv's" or "welp single forge, can't do that!" or whatever.
Terran players do NOT pull scv's because protoss players play greedy on 2bases. They do it because it's an incredibly strong all-in, no matter what the toss is doing.
That is not true. While I agree that it doesn't need to be a reaction, it might very well be one.
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On September 25 2013 02:52 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 02:50 Teoita wrote:
My point was, it's not a REACTION to the protoss 2base build. The terran will not scan a toss base and say "oh double forge, time to pull scv's" or "welp single forge, can't do that!" or whatever.
Terran players do NOT pull scv's because protoss players play greedy on 2bases. They do it because it's an incredibly strong all-in, no matter what the toss is doing. That is not true.
Your argument is simply astonishing, how did you ever think up such a masterpiece of an argumental point?
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On September 25 2013 02:52 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 02:50 Teoita wrote:
My point was, it's not a REACTION to the protoss 2base build. The terran will not scan a toss base and say "oh double forge, time to pull scv's" or "welp single forge, can't do that!" or whatever.
Terran players do NOT pull scv's because protoss players play greedy on 2bases. They do it because it's an incredibly strong all-in, no matter what the toss is doing. That is not true. While I agree that it doesn't need to be a reaction, it might very well be one.
This is the best argument of semantics I have seen in a while. I think we all can agree that it is sometimes an reaction and sometimes it is a blind all-in. Sometimes it works and other teams it looks silly.
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On September 25 2013 02:50 Teoita wrote:
My point was, it's not a REACTION to the protoss 2base build. The terran will not scan a toss base and say "oh double forge, time to pull scv's" or "welp single forge, can't do that!" or whatever.
Terran players do NOT pull scv's because protoss players play greedy on 2bases. They do it because it's an incredibly strong all-in, no matter what the toss is doing.
It's only strong if they're playing greedy, it's not strong if they're not playing greedy.
The problem is that if the protoss plays safe, terran gets a free 4rth, which makes protoss not want to play safe since they're already behind a base.
The timing itself came about *because* of a metagame of greedy play.
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On September 25 2013 02:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 02:52 NarutO wrote:On September 25 2013 02:50 Teoita wrote:
My point was, it's not a REACTION to the protoss 2base build. The terran will not scan a toss base and say "oh double forge, time to pull scv's" or "welp single forge, can't do that!" or whatever.
Terran players do NOT pull scv's because protoss players play greedy on 2bases. They do it because it's an incredibly strong all-in, no matter what the toss is doing. That is not true. While I agree that it doesn't need to be a reaction, it might very well be one. This is the best argument of semantics I have seen in a while. I think we all can agree that it is sometimes an reaction and sometimes it is a blind all-in. Sometimes it works and other teams it looks silly.
Lets just agree I won't waste time explaining, because whenever I do some players come around the corner and try to explain my race to me. When I collect statistics I fake them, so why bother?
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Italy12247 Posts
On September 25 2013 02:52 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 02:50 Teoita wrote:
My point was, it's not a REACTION to the protoss 2base build. The terran will not scan a toss base and say "oh double forge, time to pull scv's" or "welp single forge, can't do that!" or whatever.
Terran players do NOT pull scv's because protoss players play greedy on 2bases. They do it because it's an incredibly strong all-in, no matter what the toss is doing. That is not true. While I agree that it doesn't need to be a reaction, it might very well be one.
Do you have any meaningful (=standard pro games) examples of that? The only ones that comes to my mind was that Tails vs Ryung game i analyzed forever ago, and Trap vs Supernova on Anaconda, both of which were very non standard games. Against most colossus play these days, terrans just kind of go for it.
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On September 25 2013 02:50 Teoita wrote:
My point was, it's not a REACTION to the protoss 2base build. The terran will not scan a toss base and say "oh double forge, time to pull scv's" or "welp single forge, can't do that!" or whatever.
Terran players do NOT pull scv's because protoss players play greedy on 2bases. They do it because it's an incredibly strong all-in, no matter what the toss is doing.
Or maybe because most protoss are doing the build by default due to the metagame, so they don't need to scout.
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On September 25 2013 02:57 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 02:55 Plansix wrote:On September 25 2013 02:52 NarutO wrote:On September 25 2013 02:50 Teoita wrote:
My point was, it's not a REACTION to the protoss 2base build. The terran will not scan a toss base and say "oh double forge, time to pull scv's" or "welp single forge, can't do that!" or whatever.
Terran players do NOT pull scv's because protoss players play greedy on 2bases. They do it because it's an incredibly strong all-in, no matter what the toss is doing. That is not true. While I agree that it doesn't need to be a reaction, it might very well be one. This is the best argument of semantics I have seen in a while. I think we all can agree that it is sometimes an reaction and sometimes it is a blind all-in. Sometimes it works and other teams it looks silly. Lets just agree I won't waste time explaining, because whenever I do some players come around the corner and try to explain my race to me. When I collect statistics I fake them, so why bother?
I was agreeing with you already. I started this argument after all with my statement that it was a respond to greed protoss builds that got storm later(or standard, I don't know what is real any more). Then people said that it wasn't a respond, but a standard all in, that sometimes is dont based on scouting. It was at that point I decided that the argument was one of semantics.
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Italy12247 Posts
So protoss players are just doing builds that get killed by scv trains in an era when the most popular strategy is...the scv train. Makes sense.
You can have a strategy/timing attack that becomes dominant exclusively because the race using it figures out that it's an incredibly powerful build regardless of what the other player is doing, either killing him outright if he's not playing safe against it or at the very least requiring a lot of effort to stop. Roach max, 111, 4gate in pvp back in the day and proper, parting-style soultrains, aggressive 2medivac timings in pvt, are all great examples of that. The race doing it simply figured it was extremely strong no matter what the other guy was doing (or close to it), and it took a long time for the other races to rework their builds around this new powerful timing. The scv trains are just the latest iteration of that.
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hmm ill have to play it but it just seems to hurt the XvZ matchup at every turn . . i mean great burrowed roach speed but there is a reason noone uses it much . . because its completely situational, 1 scan, 1 observer, 1 over seer and those fast roaches do fuck all when you lose them all for free
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On September 25 2013 03:25 StatixEx wrote:
hmm ill have to play it but it just seems to hurt the XvZ matchup at every turn . . i mean great burrowed roach speed but there is a reason noone uses it much . . because its completely situational, 1 scan, 1 observer, 1 over seer and those fast roaches do fuck all when you lose them all for free
In fairness, the new speed means that there is no reason for them to run around the map unburrowed--ever. Since they move at the same speed burrowed and unborrowed it just means runby attacks are stronger, flanks are easier to do, and escaping forcefields is easier.
I don't really think that it will give Zerg Blink. But it opens up a LOT for zerg play.
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On September 25 2013 03:11 Teoita wrote:
So protoss players are just doing builds that get killed by scv trains in an era when the most popular strategy is...the scv train. Makes sense.
You can have a strategy/timing attack that becomes dominant exclusively because the race using it figures out that it's an incredibly powerful build regardless of what the other player is doing, either killing him outright if he's not playing safe against it or at the very least requiring a lot of effort to stop. Roach max, 111, 4gate in pvp back in the day and proper, parting-style soultrains, aggressive 2medivac timings in pvt, are all great examples of that. The race doing it simply figured it was extremely strong no matter what the other guy was doing (or close to it), and it took a long time for the other races to rework their builds around this new powerful timing. The scv trains are just the latest iteration of that.
What is your point? You are saying its a powerful all-in and I agreed. I even agreed that some players do it blind. Do you just feel the need to hash out the point endlessly until I admit you are 100% right and my views on the game are 100% incorrect? If so, I can save us both the time and agree to that as well.
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Cant we all agree that protoss at the highest level has been fairly unsuccessful? the DT buff is random, but I dont know if its going to really affect the meta that much. DT are still really high cost and are still really squishy. even with the cheaper DT shrine in HotS, DT use has settled down significantly and I know we were all scared that DTs would be overused like mad.
I hate facing DTs as much as anybody else, but if it means that theres a little more balance in the win distribution so that everybody can be a bit happier, Im all for it.
widow mines needed something changed, they did, its glaringly obvious in EVERY TvZ with biomine which is nearly EVERY TvZ. who here loves to watch TvZ anymore? anybody? terran players can all put their hands down. even you dont like it, you just like winning. watching 5 widow mines clump up in a row and detonate on a massive group of zerglings and massing up 30-40 kills is insane. do I agree that THIS is the right nerf? no. but most of us (zerg) can agree that widowmines are insanely strong in that particular matchup. and a 36% decrease in widowmine SPLASH radius isnt that big of a deal, it means that instead of killing all 20 banelings youll get 14, still going to be cost effective, never fear terran players!
I still firmly believe that widowmines should do friendly splash vs other widowmines, especially the unburrowed sort.
you can say but banelings dont.... and ill remind you that banelings are more expensive, do less damage, die after they explode and have a smaller radius. relax, bio mine WILL still work, it just wont kill an entire zerg army in one shot. thats IT.
tank and roach buff i really dont see affecting much. TBH 10% reduction in tank refire rate is barely even noticeable by human perception, it IS noticeable but not significant. roach burrow move usually happens never, and zerg will still get the speed upgrade first, so when you see fast roaches youll know to make detection if you havent already. if any zerg is dumb enough to not get speed before burrow move then youll be fighting slow roaches that you can play whack a mole with.
oracles, theyre still so squishy, and 150/100 is still a significant early game investment, but a 50 gas decrease doesnt really impact the really high mineral cost for an early game unit. and since protoss has been struggling in the highest level we can all be happy that we negotiated like adults. mass oracle still wont be viable anywhere but gold and below.
and the last "buff" is one theyve tried OVER and OVER to push on us and we've decried OP every freaking time. remember hots beta? "we're going to combine mech and air upgrades!" remember what happened? and then the next balance tester? or the next one? 4th time is probably NOT the charm. of all of the ideas, this seems least likely to happen, just based on previous history.
the only time this will become even remotely a factor in any level of play is when terran meta realizes that Raven BC is not that tough to tech to, and it counters zerg units pretty hard, and they decide to dump minerals into hellion/hellbats to defend against zergling runby
all in all, terran doesnt lose as much as they think, zerg gains a funny new toy not that they needed much after overseers on crack, protoss units get a weird buff that seems a lot worse to us as their opponents than it probably is. protoss still doesnt win tournaments, starcraft resumes normal business as usual.
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