EPTWhen your opponent is good enough to know what you are doing and is not making mistakes and it simply comes down to who is a better player, protoss falters because they do not have that option.
6 possible balance changes - David Kim - Page 59
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
When your opponent is good enough to know what you are doing and is not making mistakes and it simply comes down to who is a better player, protoss falters because they do not have that option. | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
On September 24 2013 17:01 saddaromma wrote: I have to say you conducted a very bad test (from looks of it you did it deliberately). 1. ground and air upgrades merged, you should've added atleast vikings or banshees. 2. Costs: 5650/2625 mech vs 6000/3500 protoss anti-mech army. 3. Regular protoss army has lots of stalkers/sentries which are directly countered by tanks. non included in test. You could as well tested 30 tanks vs 5 voidrays and say tanks suck. Try to learn comparison method and experiment. The point of this test is to distinguish the effect before and after the buff, to see "if it makes any difference". It's not about counter or who wins or loses, or how many protoss units leftt. Theses are not the points here. The point of the test is to see if the 0.3 buff can make a difference. It's like control group and treatment group. 3.0 is control group and 2.7 is treatment group. So if 3.0 loses the battle by a small margin, does the 2.7 turns it back? So if 3.0 tank shots twice before dying to an immortal, can 2.7 tank fire three times before it dies? | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5221 Posts
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skiersteve
United Kingdom268 Posts
rest of it seems decent | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On September 25 2013 03:30 Plansix wrote: What is your point? You are saying its a powerful all-in and I agreed. I even agreed that some players do it blind. Do you just feel the need to hash out the point endlessly until I admit you are 100% right and my views on the game are 100% incorrect? If so, I can save us both the time and agree to that as well. I think he is trying to explain SCV pull is not a counter specifically vs greedy protoss. SCV pull is a timing window when terran is immensely more powerful than protoss, and if done right protoss has little to no chance to defend it, whatever he was building atm. I agree with Teoita to some degree, but I watched not that many PvTs lately. SCV pulls seem to be strong, but not necessarily op. But from game design perspective, I think scv pull needs to be removed. Its not good for casual spectators, eg. if we want sc2 to grow or to be fun to watch. | ||
Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
On September 25 2013 03:42 saddaromma wrote: I think he is trying to explain SCV pull is not a counter specifically vs greedy protoss. SCV pull is a timing window when terran is immensely more powerful than protoss, and if done right protoss has little to no chance to defend it, whatever he was building atm. I agree with Teoita to some degree, but I watched not that many PvTs lately. SCV pulls seem to be strong, but not necessarily op. Yeah pretty much. It's a metagame-changing build, but that doesn't have anything to do with balance. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 25 2013 03:42 saddaromma wrote: I think he is trying to explain SCV pull is not a counter specifically vs greedy protoss. SCV pull is a timing window when terran is immensely more powerful than protoss, and if done right protoss has little to no chance to defend it, whatever he was building atm. I agree with Teoita to some degree, but I watched not that many PvTs lately. SCV pulls seem to be strong, but not necessarily op. But from game design perspective, I think scv pull needs to be removed. Its not good for casual spectators, eg. if we want sc2 to grow or to be fun to watch. Yeah, so my statement is correct. I said it was a respond to greed builds, which it can be. Its is also really powerful and sometimes works blind against standard timings. Sounds like every single all strong all in I have ever heard of. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On September 25 2013 03:38 larse wrote: Try to learn comparison method and experiment. The point of this test is to distinguish the effect before and after the buff, to see "if it makes any difference". It's not about counter or who wins or loses, or how many protoss units leftt. Theses are not the points here. The point of the test is to see if the 0.3 buff can make a difference. It's like control group and treatment group. 3.0 is control group and 2.7 is treatment group. So if 3.0 loses the battle by a small margin, does the 2.7 turns it back? So if 3.0 tank shots twice before dying to an immortal, can 2.7 tank fire three times before it dies? He's saying that if your opponent has the 3-4 robo bays to churn out 5 colossus and 10 immortals while spending 300 gas a pop on 5 archons--you as the terran player would have been sniping his Colossus with vikings LOOONG before the engagement. Drop play and runbies become ridiculously strong without stalkers to catch drops. He's saying the composition you are using is unrealistic to the nature of the game and hence does not prove anything relevant; which is why he mentioned the "You could as well tested 30 tanks vs 5 voidrays" example. | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On September 25 2013 03:38 larse wrote: Try to learn comparison method and experiment. The point of this test is to distinguish the effect before and after the buff, to see "if it makes any difference". It's not about counter or who wins or loses, or how many protoss units leftt. Theses are not the points here. The point of the test is to see if the 0.3 buff can make a difference. It's like control group and treatment group. 3.0 is control group and 2.7 is treatment group. So if 3.0 loses the battle by a small margin, does the 2.7 turns it back? So if 3.0 tank shots twice before dying to an immortal, can 2.7 tank fire three times before it dies? Tests should be conducted in a close to real situations. E.g. mixing in some stalkers and sentries. You don't send ferrari to tundra and tell everyone the car is slow and needs some bigger wheels. | ||
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YuiHirasawa
Japan220 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3507 Posts
Toss can be more agressive and so we have more fun gameplay. Everyone gets nice new tools, which is cool! | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
http://imgur.com/a/aWB78 ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5zKGS2G.jpg) | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On September 24 2013 03:24 GreenMash wrote: DT change so Random WTF. All the other changes seem cool though I would have said roach speed change is weird as hell, DT change is to make DT harass more viable (like with regular drops or something i guess). I guess. | ||
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bangupjobasusual
1 Post
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On September 25 2013 04:25 larse wrote: An experiment of the tank buff: before and after the effect http://imgur.com/a/aWB78 The result seems incredibly random. The tanks won twice after the buff, but that really doesn't say much. | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
On September 25 2013 04:33 Noocta wrote: The result seems incredibly random. The tanks won twice after the buff, but that really doesn't say much. Yeah, tank in mass number creates very random results. | ||
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Kakaru2
198 Posts
On September 25 2013 03:31 Avos5 wrote: no. but most of us (zerg) can agree that widowmines are insanely strong in that particular matchup. and a 36% decrease in widowmine SPLASH radius isnt that big of a deal, it means that instead of killing all 20 banelings youll get 14, still going to be cost effective, never fear terran players! You do know that the area of a circle is PI * Range^2 * 0.5. So it's not a 36% nerf but a 60.5% one. In your example from 20 banes only 8 will explode. 12 will live to kill the rest of the army. | ||
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Riner1212
United States337 Posts
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S1eth
Austria221 Posts
On September 25 2013 04:34 larse wrote: Yeah, tank in mass number creates very random results. Especially when in one battle, the tanks target fire the immortals and all the hellbats die to the archons/collosi, and in another battle the siege tanks target the archons and collosi and the hellbats can tank/kill the zealots and immortals. | ||
salle
Sweden5554 Posts
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